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1  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] The Super Long Primer, part 1 on: December 28, 2007, 03:05:36 am
Just to put in my two cents, I have noticed this:  aside from the obvious points, Super Long is way more consistent than previous Long decks.  It has lost a lot of explosiveness, but has gained consistency.  This seems to be the battle going on with most decks now.  They are starting to trade explosiveness for consistency.  With all of the Spheres running rampant nowadays consistency seems to be the way to go.  Between  4 FoW's, 4 Duresses, and 2 Thoughtseizes you have a better chance of living to kill your opponent.  I wonder though, will there ever be a happy medium between explosiveness and consistency?  If so, this deck seems closest to it.  Any thoughts? 

2  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: December 16, 2007, 11:02:34 pm
I am a big fan of any infinite kill.  The infinite Trike kill is fun, but I still prefer the Eternal Witness/Time Walk infinite turn kill.  I realy don't know which is more effective, as I have only tested the Witness/Walk.  Any thoughts?
3  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] The 2007 Year In Review - FREE ARTICLE! on: December 16, 2007, 11:00:40 pm
Thanks for the great aricle!  This was a great year for Vintage.  Next year will, hopefully, continue to be as innovative and fun.  The memory's of the year were good to relive.  I was there when you took the Championship at GenCon.  Once again, good job!  Keep up the awesome writing!
4  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Article] A Fine Vintage - November Review on: December 13, 2007, 01:46:52 pm
Great article Zherbus!  I tend to lean towards the opinion that this is the Golden Age of Vintage.  While Gush decks do seem to take the lead on sheer numbers, i believe that it has made a lot of other former Tier 1.5/2 decks playable.  In fact, lately there have been various top 8's around the country with strong showings from several Stax variants, Slaver, Bomberman, Fish, Tendrils variants, and basically everything except Oath.  I have been thinking about the top 8's I've looked at and lately they have been the most diverse they have been in a loooong time.  Someday, the format will settle down, but for now everyone has a chance to experiment with decks they enjoy playing.  With decks like Platinum Control, Dawn of the Dead, and R/G Beats taking home prizes this is a very diverse format that leads to more people having fun rather than just playing the "Best Deck" to win.  I just wanted to thank you and several others here who continue to write great articles and keep Vintage alive. 
5  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 28, 2007, 05:10:46 pm
Ok, so.  I've decided that most of the Oath players left are in Europe.  I played some games on MWS and saw some really crazy, but interesting stuff.  One guy Oathed up a Bringer of the White Dawn, a Colossus, Platinum Angel and an Akroma.  I didn't have anything for it.  Another guy simply got out Darksteel Colossus and Eternal Witness.  These games got me thinking...  Maindeck DC is actually really good.  I played Deez Noughts agains it and realized that a 12/12 Trampler is not as good as an Indestructable 11/11 Trampler.  Not fair.  The Bringer/Colossus/Platz/Akroma did completely lock me out, but that was due to my play errors. 

In any case, could it be a good time to maindeck a Darksteel Colossus?  I battled Colossus/Oath with Deez Noughts, Empty Gush and a Tendrils Variant and found it way more effective than Tyrant for now.  In an unknown meta, I still like Tyrant better,  but could it be time for Colossus to come back???
6  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: TK DeezNauts on: November 20, 2007, 03:20:48 am
Hey there Owen!  Thanks for the explanations you gave.  It's funny you brought these points out because I have been playtesting this deck almost non stop ever since the list was posted.  All of my earlier questions on the numbers of cards and the inclusion of certain cards in the main deck and the board have been stomped.  The more I played the deck, the more I found myself saying, "Oh... that's why!"  I had originally tried the 4 Dreadnought/0Trinket Mage, as well as a 2 nough/2 mage split.  Needless to say, I'm now back to the 3 Mage/1 Dreadnought split. 

I will back up what was said earlier in this thread about the deck having no glaring weaknesses.  The deck has tools for every matchup.  The only matchup I have found to be incredibly annoying is Landstill, but then again, it usually is.  I have tested the Oath matchup due to some people saying that it could be tough.  I found it to be roughly a 60/40 in favor of Deez Noughts.  (Actually more like a 62/38, but whatever)  Tarmogoyfs and Confidants can keep tempo and card advantage to your favor long enough to finish them off.  Of course, Oath can just explode early, but in vintage most decks can, so I don't really count lucksack opening hands.   

At this point I'm using the same list you all were.  I am, however using a 2 Duress/2 Thoughseize split.  It works great.  The lack of the 3rd Thoughtseize was never really noticeable to me.  To sum up, I have found that any card I had a question about was answered by testing.  The deck is highly interactive and has such amazing synergy that I can find nothing to change at the moment.

What matchups do you feel are the most difficult?
7  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 19, 2007, 02:54:28 pm
Good board h3x!  I actually did cut Leyline's out too.  I've been having a back and forth battle of Leyline against Chalice.  I was thinking about putting Leyline back in.  (It's been one of those where every day I flip flop back and forth between Chalice and Leyline).  Once I started analyzing the matchups against decks like Nought, GAT, and Stax I really wanted Leyline's in my board.  I feel it may be the right call now due to being able to keep Tarmogoyf's manageable.  If you can hold their beats off long enough to resolve a Tyrant you have more options to regain board presence.  I do agree that Ichorid hasn't been showing it's ugly head for a while now, but I think I'm back on the Leyline wagon. 

Here's the sideboard I'm currently using:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Fire/Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Volcanic Island
1 Brain Freeze
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Echoing Truth

Tinker/Platz is for Flash, Ichorid and DeezNough

Leylines are for anything from Nought to Stax (w/Welders) to GAT to the random Ichorid

Volcanic Island/Ancient Grudge/Rack and Ruin/Fire & Ice/Oxidize for Stax

Echoing truth is for ETW or even multiple Goyf's.

I decided to take a more toolbox route since there are 2 Cunning Wishes in my maindeck.  This has worked pretty well for me lately.  Some fine tuning is still needed, but this board has been productive enough for what I need.  I'd still like to see some REB's in the board, but cant really find the room now.  I'd also like more Fire/Ices and Smothers in the board.  They are soooo good right now. 
8  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 19, 2007, 04:23:41 am
@Everrid1234

I agree.  Oath is a great deck that is a lot of fun to play.  The problem is that in a fomat where Duress, Thoughtseize, Chalice, Force, 9 Spheres, and maindeck bounce all are viable, Oath has more troubles than most decks.  This is due to the fact that they simply must win by getting an Oath active or hardcasting a creature.  This has kept it off the top tables in the U.S.  It's still fun to play and can sometimes just win.  I don't think I would take it to any major tournament, but it should be fine in local tournaments. 
9  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 18, 2007, 02:06:41 pm
@Everrid1234

I appreciate you posting and understand the points you made.  I just want to start off by saying you're right.  There is no "I'll just play control and win every game" mentality going on here.  While the points you made are correct, they are points that any Oath player is aware of. Anyone who has played the deck for a while knows the dangers of a well timed duress from your opponent.  They also know that every starting hand is not going to be Mox, Orchard, Oath and 2 forces with 2 blue cards.  I actualldy did look into the Show and Tell idea you presented.  I played aboue 12 games with it and found it at most to be clunky.  More often than playing it, it was pitched to FoW or MisD when I drew it and I never felt the need to tutor for it.  I'm not trying to flame you or anything, your points are correct.  Please understand, however, that the points you made are dangers that every Oath player already knows about, have accepted and moved on.  Also remember, Show and Tell fall's to a duress just as fast as an Oath. 
10  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: TK DeezNauts on: November 16, 2007, 03:50:28 am
Thanks for the reply TK!  I really enjoy playing the deck.  When cutting the Dreadnoughts from 4 to 1, was it more of a move to simply add the 3 Trinket Mage's for more pitchable blue cards?  Not to mention the fact that they can just search out a Nought.  Or was this a move to turn this into a Confidant/Goyf deck with stifles that just happens to have a Nought that can be played fairly easily?  What I'm really wondering is would more Noughts be added back in to give it more of that "Oops, I just won" lucksack draw?  If so what do you think would be cut?  Keep the fun decks coming!
11  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 16, 2007, 03:38:56 am
Thank you for the ruling!  I got a little scared for a minute there.  Thoughtseize is now a little more manageable.
12  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 15, 2007, 03:41:15 pm
So... the judge ruled that if you Misdirect their Thoughtseize, the do NOT have to discard a non-land card if they have one?   Um.... what?  If that's the case then Thoughtseize is SOOOOOOOO good.
13  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: TK DeezNauts on: November 15, 2007, 03:17:58 pm
Good point.  I'm just so excited that Nought is viable again.  I was a hardcore Vengeur Masque player back in the day.  I remember how bad Smother was.  I've never lost as many games to any other card.  I agree with your point, but it still makes me cringe whenever I see it.  I do like Sower though, so I'll try that out.
I worry about Fire/Ice a lot, due to the fact that Confidant is the main target.

It's all about tempo with this deck though.  If you're playing GAT and they kill a dryad or two the tempo loss is usually back breaking.  This deck has enough creatures to have a lot of threats.  I have won a couple games based solely on Confidant beats. 

The only thing I personally would like to change is more Duresses.  I'm thinking about maybe a 3/2 Duress/Thoughtseize... or even a 4/2.  Is that overkill though?  Is there even anything worth cutting?     
14  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 15, 2007, 03:07:27 pm
It sounds like I am being misunderstood.  My apologies.  I was half asleep when I posted last time.  What I meant was, Misdirecting a Thoughtseize is better than using FoW on it.  It just happens to have the added bonus of them revealing their hand.  It just allows you additional information.  If they have a target, THEY do have to pick one and it is their choice.  If they don't then you're probably a little better off then they are.  I'm still a fan of Misdirection.
15  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: TK DeezNauts on: November 15, 2007, 04:28:30 am
I had been playing around with TarmoNought for a month or so.  Granted, it was a bit different from the TK Deez Noughts, but I love it.  When I first saw this version I was a little taken aback by having only 1 Nought and no masks.  Yeah, I was wrong.  This is a deck that just happens to have a Phyrexian Dreadnought and a was to resolve it.  This deck is not only a powerhouse with amazing synergy, it is also amazingly fun to play.  It's highly interactive and very powerful.  Just from my little bit of testing with this version I must agree with the fact that it has no real weaknesses.  (Except for what was just mentioned about not having an answer to the Platz).  Naturally, Stax is a bit of a headache. 

The only decks I have had a hard time with in my testing have been Landstill and Stax.  As for what I've tested against Oath, anything but Tyrant Oath is favorable.  If a tyrant resolves, it's a sad day in Noughtville.  This deck doesn't roll over to welder though, like previous MaskNought builds, but I can see Smother taking 3 - 4 SB places in most decks that run black for this (not to mention the face that Smother is sooo good in the meta right now).  Knowing the dangers, are there any changes that can be made to reduce the collateral damage of numerous Fire/Ice and Smothers ruining a pretty day?

R.I.P. - Morphling
R.I.P. - Psychatog (?)
Welcome to the third age of "Superman".... Tarmogoyf!

 
16  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 15, 2007, 04:09:05 am
Misdirecting a Thoughtseize is not something you will do every time one is played and you have the Misdirection and the blue card to pitch.  It follows the same principal of playing FoW on a Duress.  It is a bad play UNLESS you need to protect a vital card.  If you feel that the Thoughtseize resolving is not a problem, then let it roll.  At the same time though, let's say I have something in my hand that I want protected badly.  I have a FoW, Misdirection and a blue card to pitch.  Naturally it's better to go for the 2 for 2 trade than the 2 for 1 trade.  It's not a situation you will see every time though.  The point is that the fact that it is Misdirectable means that you can simply have another option presented to you.  I'd much rather be able to not only counter it, but get to look at their hand and make them pitch a card.

There is no definitive answer to the situation of Thoughseize vs. Duress.  Sometimes Duress will be better, sometimes Thoughseize.  It is all going to depend on board presence, and card's in hand.  It's like someone saying, "if that Mana Drain had just been a Counterspell I wouldn't have died from mana burn."  It's going to be up to the player playing the Thoughtseize to decide the right time to play it, and it will be the opponent's call when to counter or Misdirect.  What I'm trying to get at is that there's no clear cut answer.  It is a question that can only be answered in the context of the current game state.
17  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 13, 2007, 02:03:48 pm
Good point on the Imperial Seal.  I do believe it is important now.  After seeing the decklists from Chicago from day 1 and 2, I must say, WTF?!  Some of that is the most random stuff I have ever seen.  It did well, but once again makes me believe Tyrant Oath is the best one right now.  H3x made a good point.  It's the best in a diverse/unknown meta.  After seeing that it certianly is a diverse meta.  Aside from the day 2 Long decks most everything was creature based.  Oath should be able to come back.  There was nowhere near as many STAX decks as I would have predicted. 

On another topic...  I'm still having a battle of Nix vs. Misdirection.  The meta is so diverse that there are some matchups where MidD is better and some where Nix is better, but there is no clear-cut answer.  I'm debating on 2 of each main deck, but it seems a little too dilluted.  The arguments for both are that Thoughtseize, which showed its ugly head at Chicago, is Misdirectable.  Granted it's a 2 for 2 trade, but if you NEED to protect something you can.  In a pinch I'd rather be Seized than Duressed.  So Misdirection is good.  On the other hand, Nix has proven itself just as useful, Countering FoW, MisD, Gush, Lotus, Pacts, etc.  Nix is never really a dead card in any matchup.  With the fact that Oath is good against random Aggro, I think it needs to be even MORE controlling. 

Could it be time to bring Chalice's back to the main deck?  Storm has showed it's face again, placing 3 in top 8 on day 2.  Chalice on 1 is good against DeezNaughts.  Like, really good.  You can play around Chalice with Tyrant Oath.  I was running 4 Mana Drains and an Academy.  I've hard casted Tyrant several times to get around Chalice @ 2.  (I know it stops Mana Drain, but whatever.)  All in all it seems like a good time for Oath.  More testing needs to be done, but every top 8 shifts the metagame so much that Tyrant Oath will be in a state of flux for a while now.  It does, however, seem that Oath will have to change a few cards at most.  Keep trying fellow Oathers!
18  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: November 12, 2007, 02:49:15 pm
Lately, I've been the happiest with the Tyrant Oath list I presented a while ago.  The only matchups that were surprisingly irritating were BUW Fish and 9 Sphere.dec (but then again, it always is).  GAT is winnable since I run a similar disruption package.  The downside is GAT can just break free where you can't do anything but smile and stare at the ceiling.  Then again, so can a lot of the top decks now, so if you plan on running Oath just accept this as fact and move on.  GAT right now is doing exactly what Menendian said it would: Evolve.  Most decks coming to the top to level the playing field are creature based (TK DeezNaughts, STAX).  This makes Oath more viable than it has been in a long time.  Much better than the days of Meandeck Gifts and Grim Long. 

I stand by another Menendian theory that the most broken card in Vintage is Yawgmoth's Will.  I believe this is what gives Tyrant Oath the edge over other Oath variants right now.  This is one of the few Oath decks that can totally abuse the most broken card ever.  You can really call it a Yawg Win when you dump 75% or so of your deck into your yard, bounce their board and Will back a set of Duress.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is something new, but it can help the Brain Freeze combo (or even Tendrils) actually combo off by getting rid of Spheres and other Storm Stoppers.   

Tyrant Oath is the only Oath variant that I feel comfortable handling whatever sits across from me almost every game 1.  Since I stand by this theory I must back it up with a SB that is more controlling rather than substitute combo pieces.  (1 x Volcanic, REB's, Tormod's Crypts, Fire/Ice etc, Oxidize, Rack and Ruin etc.)  These can be built to a more specific meta.

I use small, but simple strategies against the various deck you may see.  Against GAT I play more like they do and mirror their way of thinking as how to play.  I play a a GAT player who's trying to resolve an Oath rather than a Dryad.  I ususally just try to play a pure control game and resolve a Tyrant, never going too crazy, just trying to keep Dryads and Tog off the board.  What you really need to watch for post board is REB.  Not so much for counter wars, but a well timed one on their part will burn the Tyrant, so naturally I board in a second one to improve the odds. Against STAX you need to play a more combo role and try to resolve Tyrant ASAP.  Keep them off their spheres and welder if possible (and of course Smokestack if you see that horrible horrible brown card... grrrrr.....).  I haven't playtested the TK DeezNaughts matchup much, but it seems interesting.  They have a disruption package that can wreck your card advantage and an early board presence that can gain more tempo than you can.  (Sidenote:  I REALLY like the TKDN deck!!). 

In summation I still believe in Tyrant's the most right now.  None of the meta seems to be handled by Oath right now, but I'll still always have it built.  For die hard Oath players though, this meta seems better for you than it has been over the past couple years of Storm and Slaver.  Tweak, Test and Win. 
19  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: October 30, 2007, 12:47:06 pm
Here is an older Oath list that I was using.  It's one of the better ones against Shop based decks.  I shelved it about 6 months ago, but it could be viable again.

5 x Moxen
1 x Black Lotus
4 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Null Rod

4 x Oath of Druids

1 x Razia
1 x Akroma

4 x Force of Will
1 x Ancestral Recall
2 x Mana Drain
2 x TfK
4 x Duress
1 x Time Walk
1 x Gaea's Blessing
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Life From the Loam

3 x Polluted Delta
2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Underground Sea
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mind
4 x Forbidden Orchard

SB:
4 x Oxidize
1 x Tinker
1 x Darksteel Colossus
2 x Triskelion
1 x Platz
2 x Rushing River
2 x Tormod's Crypt
2 x Extirpate

It has all of the basic Oath strategies, but has a maindeck and sideboard that isn't so tight it's hard to change stuff.  It has Null Rod's main deck, as well as Chalices's.  Both are extremely good in the Shop matchup.  Not to mention that post board you can put in Triskelion's to shoot Welders, and Oxidize to hit anything else pesky (Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance and Thorns are my ideal targets).  A well timed extirpate can save you a lot of headache, especially against Welders.  Also, I stand by a theory that against stax, Duress is not bad if you have graveyard hate to back it up.  Extirpate fills this role nicely.  Just an idea from the last time Stax was a pain. 

Also:  Thanks Dante for the clarification.  I really don't need to be thinking about rules questions after a severe lack of sleep.
20  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [article] WGDX vs GAT on: October 26, 2007, 12:15:40 pm
Very well written article.  This has kinda changed my view on WGD.  The matchups analysis with GAT was impressive.  In your playtesting has the E. Witness/Ancestral win proven to be the most reliable?  What about the old Ambassador?  Is he less disruptable?  Also, do you think you could do a card by card explanation of the deck?  I know how WDG works, but I like to hear people opinions on why they made the card choices they have.  Thanks again for the awesome article. 
21  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: October 26, 2007, 12:12:13 pm
Just to get the discussion going again, I'll put up the Main Deck of the version I am currently playing.  (Just a couple changes from the last time)

1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Lotus Petal
1 x Mana Crypt
2 x Sensei's Divining Top

4 x Oath of Druids

1 x Tidespout Tyrant
1 x Eternal Witness

1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Cunning Wish
4 x Force of Will
1 x Krosan Reclamation
4 x Mana Drain
2 x Misdirection
2 x Thirst for Knowledge
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Flash of Insight

1 x Demonic Tutor
4 x Duress
1 x Time Walk
1 x Yawgmoth's Will

2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Polluted Delta
4 x Forbidden Orchard
1 x Snow Covered Island
2 x Tropical Island
2 x Underground Sea
1 x Tolarian Academy

I know some explanations are in order:

Academy:  I feel there is no reason not to play it.  It allows you to hard cast the Tyrant in a pinch.  Helps you go off and can give you broken starts.  If nothing else, it's a wasteland target that they may feel the need to hit instead of your duals.

4 Drains:  I can't help it.  I just feel that any deck is better with Mana Drain.  This deck can use the fuel to hard cast Tyrant and, if need be, funnel it all into a Top to prevent burn. 

Sensei's Divining Top:  I've loved this card ever since it came out.  It's so versatile.  Maybe it is overrated, but it has saved me several times.  Digging to that FoW drawing it with the top has been a lucky charm.  Also, as mentioned before, it funnels extra Drain mana so you don't burn.  It pitches to TfK and if nothing else, it bounces something with a Tyrant on the board.

Now that the main deck is out there, what I really need opinions on is a SB.  The only things I know for a fact that I want in there are:

1 x Brain Freeze
2 x Research/Development (I friggin HATE StP!!!)
1 x Tidespout Tyrant (eh.... maybe... opinions on the extra one in the board???)

As for the rest, I'm fairly lost.  It's not that I can't just come up with a functional SB, but have ran many games against GAT (which haven't been as bad as I thought since I pretty much run the same disruption suite), Staxless STAX (Irritating, but an early Oath is deadly for them.  Especially since my creatures are Welder-Proof), BUW Fish (Grrrrr.  More than irritating.  They can just be so obnoxious.  I HATE StP!!!)  and Landstill.

GAT is of course, the powerhouse.  One game I had them at 1 life.  All they had on the board was a Drayd with 1 counter on it, but noone can beat a topdeck of Lotus into Will with 30 or so cards in the yard.  (Little monster bashed for 26 with a Berserk)  But then again, that is GAT.  Sometimes it JUST wins. 

I got a little sidetracked though.  The point I'm trying to get at is that the Maindeck feels so good to me that I feel almost any game 1 is winnable (well... Ichorid can get a little stupid).  Should the SB be the typical CotV, Oxidize, etc. or should it be more of a toolbox that enables the Cunning Wishes in the main deck to do more than Brain Freese someone or get R/D to get stuff back?  I've found Chailce at most to be functionally irritating for me to have to play around (before Tyrant hits the board).  I understand it's usefullness agains GAT and Storm, but is it worth the 4 spaces?  Is Stax enough of a threat to warrant 4 Oxidize?  I'm partially debating putting a Volcanic in the MD and putting a set of ReBs in the board and turning Oath into a more controlling deck post board. 

What about something like this?

1 x Brain Freeze
2 x Research/Development
2 x Pyroblast
2 x ReB
2 x Platinum Angel
1 x Rack and Ruin
1 x Fire/Ice
2 x Massacre
2 x Tormod's Crypt

Or even still, anyone remember the old Donate/Illusions deck that Budde ran?  How it could basically put it's whole sideboard in and switch to a different deck post board?  This is so close to GAT that we could basicall swap 13 or so cards and turn it into GAT.  Game 1 they see Oath, Game 2 GAT.  I'm just thinking out loud (er... typing... out... loud... you know what I mean).

SB like this?

1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Research/Development
4 x Quirion Dryad
1 x Psychatog
1 x Fastbond
4 x Gush
3 x Merchant Scroll

I know it's a really dilluted form of GAT, but hey, the old GWS oath could turn into a Tinker/Colossus control deck.  I'm of course leaning towards the first SB where it is more controlling, but this may be crazy enought to work with some fine tuning.  Is it viable or just a crazy man's pipe dream?
22  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: October 08, 2007, 01:38:50 pm
@PETER FLUGZEUG
 I can see what you're saying about Balance, but my argument against it would be this: Gush decks can bounce all their lands and wipe you.  They may have to discard their hand, but as a GAT player it doesn't really scare me.  I agree that a well timed Balance can cripple any deck, but against really good GAT players it will be hard to sneak a balance out .  All they need on the board to kill is 1 Dryad / Tog and at most 2 lands.  With Fastbond and Yawg Will they can recover too quickly.  Just my opinion.  I don't really know your meta, so if it works for you don't stop playing it.  Also with Goblin tokens from Warrens Echoing Truth is still my favorite way to get rid of those.  1 in the board is a good move. 

The Drain/Misdirect spot can be toyed with.  I just haven't looked into it.  I think if I cut a Drain, I'll probably put a Flash of Insight in.  That still leaves 4 Fow, 2 Drain, 2 Misdirect and 4 Duress for disruption. 

About the Sol Ring it's still up in the air.  For now I like it.  It seems to fit in the deck.  The Academy in here is awesome.  Being able to just hard cast Tyrant if need be is really important. 

I was doing some more playtesting last night after my post and have cut the Chalice's.  I really don't like them in here.  Anytime I use them to affect my opponent it usually ends up being annoying for me as well.  On 0, I can't play my own Mox's and such which prevents me from the 2 Mox infinite spell/mana combo that I use with the Brain Freeze from the board.  Chalice on 1 keeps me off Duress, Brainstorm, Ancestral etc.  Chalice on 2 stops my Oath, and infinite Turns with Time Walk.  With a Tyrant on the board though, you can play around you own Chalice.  You just have to be able to play a spell to bounce in on your turn and then replay it after you go stupid with something.  Even still, in the matches I played they were never game breaking.  I cut them from the maindeck, but they need to still be available so I put them in the SB.

When I cut the chalice's from my list here's what I changed:

-4 Chalice of the Void

+1 Mana Crypt
+1 Flash of Insight
+2 Sensei's Divining Top

Explanation as follows:

Mana Crypt:  Really doesn't need an explanation, but whatever.  With TfK in the deck, I really wanted to try to keep at least 3 of these spots as artifacts to be able to use it efficiently. Also, it's pretty good with the Tinker from the board.  It gives you exactly what you need.  2 mana and sacs to the Tinker.  Plus it's another 0 drop artifact to use with Tyrant to go infinite.  Oh and Academy is broken.

Flash of Insight:  Yeah this card is stupid.  I hear with infinite mana and infinites spells (from 2 Mox's and a Tyrant) being able to stack your deck is broken.  Plus, it pitches to FoW and Misdirection.  I really needed this in here because I still don't like Deep Analysis in T1.  (Although the flavor text still makes me laugh like a crazy man)

Sensei's Divining Top:  As we all know this card is GOOD in Oath.  It can prevent your from drawing a creature and being forced to Brainstorm to put it back.  Also, the versatility of this card in here is just amazing.  Often with Mana Drain you can be forced into a position where you HAVE to counter something broken.  Especially if they Duress you and bait you into something you need to counter to stay alive, but will leave you with mana burn.  With a top on the board you will not burn.  Also, it pitches to TfK.  Also, instant speed digging 3 cards deep in amazing.  Often you can find a FoW, Midirect or just a blue card to pitch and then draw it at instant speed.  After playing with it, this card is so broken in here it must stay.  Not to mention, it's just something you can play, bounce a permanent and then draw a card.  Since I run Academy in here, the more artifacts the better.

OH!  Sidenote:  With a Chalice on 0 you cannot even play the Mox.  Chalice prevents your from Playing it and Tyrant requires that you be able to Play to bounce a permanent.  That's what I believe, but if someone overrules this we can double check...


@netherspirit
I like the decklist.  It's different from usual builds, but interesting.   I see you have a lot of disruption, which is good, but do you ever have problems protecting your creatures/oath?  What kind of Meta do you have in your area?

23  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: October 08, 2007, 01:23:45 am
These days I have primarily play GAT, but I must admit that Oath has always been my favorite deck to play.  When anything important is at stake, I'll go with GAT but Oath is always fun and is often a powerhouse that people take too lightly.  I've been doing a lot of playtesting lately vs GAT, BUW Fish, and various Tendrils decks (Grim, Pitch, Mean Deck, etc.) and I've found a foreign decklist I really liked.  Some changes will be made soon, due to my playtesting.  Here's what Im playing:

1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Lotus Petal
1 x Sol Ring
4 x Chalice of the Void

4 x Oath of Druids

1 x Tidespout Tyrant
1 x Eternal Witness

1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Cunning Wish
4 x Force of Will
1 x Krosan Reclamation
3 x Mana Drain
2 x Misdirection
2 x Thirst for Knowledge
1 x Vampiric Tutor

1 x Demonic Tutor
4 x Duress
1 x Time Walk
1 x Yawgmoth's Will

2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Polluted Delta
4 x Forbidden Orchard
1 x Island
2 x Tropical Island
2 x Underground Sea
1 x Tolarian Academy

SB:
1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Krosan Reclamation
1 x Tinker
1 x Darksteel Colossus
1 x Platinum Angel
4 x Oxidize
1 x Rushing River
1 x Fire/Ice
4 x Various Metagame Cards

@ PETER FLUGZEUG
I really like some of the stuff you have in here.  I do need to get a Flash of Insight in here.  The Mind Twist is funny because I was thinking of adding it the other day.  I'm not sure of the Balance, how often do you use it and what matchups do you think its a necessity?

@netherspirit
Do you have a decklist for your BG version?

24  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: September 29, 2007, 02:31:38 am
Akroma, AoF is interesting.  Simic Sky Sallower is good.  It seems like the safe creature to play now.  Now, don't get me wrong, I love Simic Sky Swallower, but I think it may be too slow now.  Maybe it's just me, but Tyrant still seems like the money play.  I know REB and Pyroblast are everywhere, but if Tyrant can survive just long enough to bounce a Dryad, you bought enough time to survive. 

Also, what if we brought back Tyrant Oath with Tendrils of Agony?  I mean a Tyrant can create infinite spells with Mox's, what about a couple Tendrils for a really interesting kill?  If you cut the Gush engine, you can play enough control to protect the Tyrant.  My idea isn't a "Solution", just a random thought to keep the discussion going.  Here is its:

Artifacts: 7
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Lotus Petal

Creatures: 2
2 x Tidespout Tyrant

Enchantments: 4
4 x Oath of Druids

Instants: 19
1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Force of Will
2 x Misdirection
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Mana Drain
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Rushing River
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Krosan Reclamation

Sorceries: 11
4 x Duress (or) 4 x Thoughtseize
1 x Demonic Tutor
2 x Tendrils of Agony
1 x Time Walk
1 x Life From The Loam
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Recoup

Lands: 17
4 x Forbidden Orchard
2 x Tropical Island
2 x Underground Sea
1 x Island
3 x Polluted Delta
2 x Flooded Strand
2 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mine

SB:
4 x Oxidize
1 x Tinker
1 x Darksteel Colossus
4 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Simic Sky Swallower
1 x Platinum Angel
 
25  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: September 22, 2007, 12:56:39 pm
You know, I never fully read your post on the Gush Oath deck.  It seems just crazy enough to work.  I really like it.  It's control, but a killer combo against any deck.  Bouncing every permanent on your opponents side of the board (Except agains Tendrils) is pretty good I hear.  The only things I would debate, or change if I build it (which may just be personal preference) is I would change Nix to Misdirection.  That one I think is personal preference.  No real debate.

Sundering Titan can be a moster agains some decks, but I do not feel he is powerful agains GAT.  Most experienced GAT players can play around him to the point where he will end up destroying your own lands.  Even if you are able to play around it, that seems like too much trouble to get the effect.  Also, I really wouldn't like hitting him off an Oath activation.  I would rather move the Tinker to the board with a Colossus. (May be outdated, but I still believe in it).  What about finding room for Duress?  I still believe it is necessary. 

What I would change is:

-2 Island
-1 Tinker
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Research/Development
-3 Nix
-1 Wipe Away

+4 Duress
+3 Merchant Scroll
+2 Misdirection

My changes are due to the fact that I really want duress, so the lands need to be altered.  I just prefer Misdirection over Nix and Merchant Scroll is very important for the Control Aspect as well as the combo.  Realistically its a lot like GAT.  The difference is instead of Dryads, you have Oath. 

Do you have any match analysis for your version?
 
26  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: September 21, 2007, 06:25:54 pm
We know now the dangers of certain Oath targets:  Platinum Angel is in danger due to Goblin Welder and all of the artifact hate, Razia/Akroma is fast and powerful, but sometimes just can't handle Dryads, but what about maindecking the Tyrants?  Is straight Tyrant Oath where it is at now?  He is extremely useful in GAT, which is the deck to beat.  Is he powerful enough to keep dryads off the board and keep GAT off their game?  Not to mention Stax's pesky artifacts and Ichorid's early game? 
27  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Will Ponder (from Lorwyn) find its way into Vintage? on: September 19, 2007, 10:16:52 pm
I'm sure it will have an impact, but time will tell.  I have no clear cut idea of how important it will be.  Basically this is just a better version of Portent, I believe it is a good card, I just don't see it as a format affecting card.  I play GAT right now, so I'll test it out and see how big of a difference it does make.  Opt may be cut for it, but only playtesting will determine.  I'm sure Flash will use it, but looking at the last Indy Top 8 as well as the Vintage Championships I think something new will have to come out to take out GAT.  Time to bring back SS?  Does Ponder have a home there?
28  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: September 19, 2007, 04:23:10 pm
Yeah, I can see that.  Use the haste to try and knock em down before they can fastbond out.  In the current meta I am playing GAT now.  I got back into vintage when they unrestricted Gush.  I was an avid Oath player for a looong time and it is one of my favorite decks ever.  I just don't think it can overtake the format the way it is now.  If Oath came back I would love to play it, but for now I must have fun with Gush before they take it away again.  I saw the decklist with sundering titan.  Any thoughts on that?  It just seems silly enough to do and hope your opponent doesn't gush in response to the oath activation.

I know who can be oathed up to combat GAT......  UNCLE ISTAVAN!!!! 
29  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Will Ponder (from Lorwyn) find its way into Vintage? on: September 19, 2007, 01:06:29 pm
It seems the argument has shifted away from "Should we play ponder" to "Should we play Mana Drain".  It seems that if people play Drains, there will be no room for ponder, and if people play ponder in GAT, there is no room for drains.  Mana Drain vs. Ponder.  If the argument boils down to which would I rather run, I'm still a fan of Mana Drain.  I feel it does belong in the deck over ponder.  Mana Drain can burn you if you play it at the wrong time, but when it comes time to go off with Yawg Will, it can be very helpful.  Not to mention the drain mana can always be used to hard cast Gush.  It seems to me that if the game is in such a state where playing drain and not being able to use the mana is killing you, it's either over already or was a desparation maneuver.     

As far as Opt vs. Ponder, I'm still a fan of Opt.  This is largely due to the fact that I run Mana Drain, but then again it all goes back to the base argument of Ponder vs Mana Drain.  Instant vs. Sorcery.  I don't feel that at this time there is a clear cut answer.  It just comes down to personal preference and if you feel you can play around Mana Drain. 

GAT aside, what other decks will largely benefit from Ponder?  Flash may be able to use it to dig deeper to go off.  Oath could use it to keep your targets in your deck.  Tendrils doesn't need it.  Stax doesn't need it.  Ichorid doesn't need it.  What about Fish?  Could they use it in addition to Brainstorm, or is it not worth finding something to cut out to replace it?   

All in all, the only deck I can see that gets a viable boost will be Flash.  It's obviously inferior to Brainstorm, but I sure will pick up 4 Foils when the set comes out.  Some day it will find a home, especially if they ever decide to restrict Brainstorm.  I hope that never happens though.
30  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Oath of druids in the current meta. on: September 19, 2007, 12:42:57 pm
I can understand the use of Platinum Angel against Flash as it just beats it (That is, if you can get one on the board and start playing straight control). However, with the most recent metagame at Indy, and GenCon before that they seem suboptimal.  GAT packs a lot of artifact hate in the board.  I do agree that the Angels are now suboptimal, Dryads will run them over or Berserk over them.  It may seem slower, but I think the best Oath target that exists now is Darksteel Colossus.  It can stand up to artifact hate and he is huge, so dryads and even tog witll have to do some work to get over him.  The only decks that are problematic for this are Fish (Due to plows) and Stax (Due to welders), but those same problems exist with Platinum Angel.  I know that Darksteel Colossus has been in the board, but is it time to move hime over to the Main Deck as the big boss? 
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