has there been any thought about Dryad Arbor as a dread return target that can trigger Bloodghast?

So what does the board look like now a days? And what is the thinking on Mana vs. Manaless?

I havent been playing for the last couple months so I'm a little out of the loop, but there seems to be a lot of anti-graveyard strategy going around. Is it still worth it to bring a Ichorid deck to a tourney? I just want to know if it's time for me to start playing key/vault combo like everyone else yet or not.

Since the days of Platz and people packing all sorts of random sb hate for Ichorid are kinda over, are emerald chard and chain still the best options in the board? what about things like ignot chewer and whispermare?

With the rise in played Bobs and Welders, I think its safe to say that darkblast deserves at least one spot in the main. Depending on your build, what are you supposed to cut and how many copies do you run?

1)The original idea for this deck was mine (...ok, is was 50/50), Goyf+Broken Blue. All Jason did was add Will and D-Tutor.
2)The board was really interesting to make. He wanted lands in the board and I wanted red main. You can see the agreement we came to and how happy we both ended up being with. I think this color splash side board was a great idea. Its the coolest shit since the transformative board.
3)Its true. I can't play seriously. But if you can find a single person who didn't enjoy playing against me then i'll retire from magic.
4)Jason is a honorless piece of trash
5)NEVER PLAY 1 LEYLINE

EDIT: For what its worth, we would like the deck to be known as ".dec". There is a short story behind the name, but its just long enough that I am not going to explain it this minute.

I'll be there in the morning

Ok thanks. It wasn't in one of those special list boxes so I assumed it meant that the list was a test list that got tossed aside.

Thanks for the speedy response.

You mention a choice between Magus of the Moon and Root Maze+Pithing Needle. What would the deck look like with that Maze/Needle package?

I have seen a few lists running Greater Gargadon in the board against Oath. If you played Gargadon in the board, would you also include Vexing Shusher? Is Oath even a match-up that needs this many slots in the board? Are these cards good enough in other match-ups to warrant that many spots in the board?

Edit: Great Article. I am pretty much a dedicated RG player so this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see. I plan on bringing this to every tournament I attend in the foreseeable future. I'll be sure to put up tournament reports.

Sounds fair. I guess the next step is to figure out if Goblins is the best way to go with Red. Or if this archetype needs to be updated with Cards like Magus of the Moon, Lightning Bolt, Vexing Shusher, REB, ect.?
I would make a sample deck list, but I think posting an untested list that is based on what are currently vague concepts is considered spam.

I know this thread is kinda old, but I think a new thread about goblins would be kinda redundant. Before I start trying to do anything I want to know if Goblins is still a competitive deck, or a waste of time to try to build?

Are  AEther Vial and Skullclamp better then Null Rod?

Just for reference, here is the RG list from Blue Bell.

Brian LeGrow - Dog Shit Deluxe (R/G Beats)

4 x Tin Street Hooligan
4 x Storm Entity
4 x Kird Ape
2 x Gorilla Shaman
4 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Lightning Bolt
2 x Shrapnel Blast
2 x Lava Dart
4 x Root Maze
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Land Grant
2 x Elvish Spirit Guide
4 x Simian Spirit Guide
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Lotus Petal
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Forest
4 x Wasteland
2 x Great Furnace
4 x Taiga

Side Board

3 x Pyrokinesis
3 x Pyroblast
3 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Price of Progress
3 x Ancient Grudge

This is an interesting list. It traded off the more controlling aspects of RG; Magus of the Moon, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Thorn of Amethyst for Kird Ape, Root Maze, Storm Entity and Land Grant. Not that it hasn't been done similarly before, but not even running Goyf seems weird. It kinda reminds me of Boros Deck wins. Weenie beats and then burn out. I can't really comment too much, having never played this particular variant of TMWA, but if it works then it works.

I liked the idea of this deck so i tried it out. I mixed a few things around, just too see how things played out. I didn't actually test this deck, i just goldfished till the deck felt like it was moving fast enough. Here is the list I arrived at:

Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
5 Mountain

Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Goblin Welder
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Painter's Servant
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Spells
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
3 Grindstone
1 Black Lotus
2 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Gamble

Side Board
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Null Rod
3 Electrostatic Bolt
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Pyroblast


Like I said, I haven't really tested it. Just godlfished it. I did run a couple games on MWS against myself against a couple deck, which is how i made the board.

Any thought into Regrowth. Works really well with Intuition. Not bad for other obvious reasons too.

I have seen the reports, thank you for the info though. I am wondering how the builds differ and what is stronger/weaker about them. Play styles, good and bad match ups, ect.

If your playing Tops, then why not play ponder?

I really don't know much about Slaver. I just know that there is a million and one different ways to go about building it. What is the deal with the Master of Etherium/Courier's Capsule builds that have been going around lately? Are they stronger then traditional builds? If so, why? If not, why?

So this is kinda like a combination of Landstill and Threshold? With out Walkers and Tribal, Goyf is still the baddest dude in town. You can try things like Bazaar+Squee+Loam. You can even keep in standstill. Use Bazaar to filter threw things and bump your Goyf while you have them locked. Load up on Counters and more Goyfs. Have you tried this out with Factory and Ninja? Maybe you even want to play Mistblade to keep your opponents board clear.

Mind Sensor basically stops tutor effects, including Trinket Mage and Tezzeret. It also works well with the Moat in the side board, being one of the only flying creatures to see play. Sure it's not a format breaking power house, but it's decent and serves it's purpose in the deck.

Edit: After thinking about it, I think that Mono White Parfait is just stronger.

So it's pretty much just Dawn of the Dead. Has anyone tried this with out Zombie Infestation/Bazaar/Loam? Playing it more like BUG Fish?

I like this. Needs so tweaks, but what doesn't. If I were you I would do:

-4 AEther Vial
-4 Sylvan Safekeeper
-4 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Trygon Predator
-3 Sower of Temptation

+4 Null Rod
+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Force of Will
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Stifle

I am not a big fan of Vial right now. Sure it slips things under Sphere and gets around counters, but I am not sure how big a deal that is. I think that might be a card better served in the board. Null Rod on the other hand is very good vs almost every deck besides fish mirrors. I think Stifle is a natural fit here. It messes up fetches, delays Oath, an numerous other things that would take a while to type out. On top of that it can be pitched to Force. TFK has already been mentioned as not being optimal for this deck, so I don't see the need to reiterate. I don't know what to replace it with, so I'm not going to say anything, but I agree that it doesn't belong here.

Also, why no Strip/Waste?

I have been testing out Stax/Shop decks with out Stax. Just in the few games that I have played, I doesn't seem to hurt that much. I'll admit I am not anything close to a master Stax player or even a half decent one(Fish 4TW) so maybe I just don't know how to use it properly. Personal experience tells me that between Spheres, Tangle Wire and Crucible+Waste/Strip I have a good match up vs most of the decks in my Meta(Storm Combo, Fish and Shop).

Here is the deck list I have been using in my testing:
// Lands
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    4 Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
    2 Karn, Silver Golem
    1 Sundering Titan
    1 Triskelion
    4 Juggernaut

// Spells
    4 Sphere of Resistance
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Trinisphere
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Bottled Cloister
    3 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Sol Ring

So basically its Uber Mana Disruption. 9 Sphere, Tangle Wire, Crucible, Titan and Karn my opponents normally have little to no mana and can't afford their spells. Its been amazing vs Fish and almost as good vs combo. Bottled Cloister has been a lot better then i thought it would be. I threw it in there because I didn't know what else to play and I own a play-set so I figured why not. Turns out it's pretty bad ass.

BTW: Asking an opponent if they want an autograph=awesome

Does devoting mana to play it and then in a later turn paying to flip it slow the deck down at all? I realize that you are paying for what is most likely going to win you the game, but does it make you skip playing other stuff that keeps you from loosing it first?

Oops, sorry. I never read that thread. I'm sure this will get closed and then will be the end of it. My bad.

I was goofing around on Workstation and I ran into this dude playing this pretty interesting deck. He used  Land Tax to fill his hand with lands and then use scroll rack to fill his hand with actual cards. I got the list off him. I think his list was a little weak. I figured I could put it up here and then try to work it so that it might actually be a usable deck(don't see that as the out come personally, but the chance makes me wonder).

Lands:17
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
12 Plains

Creatures:8
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Aven Mindcensor

Artifacts:16
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Loutus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Scroll Rack
2 Zuran Orb
1 Trinisphere

Spells/Enchantments:19
4 Land Tax
4 Argivian Find
3 Aura of Silence
3 Abeyance
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Moat
1 Balance

As you can see the build is a little rough with an unreliable win condition in Aven Mindcensor. All the cards in the deck have great synergy with each other, just the deck isn't that strong against non-storm related decks. I loved the synergy of Land Tax and Scroll Rack. It's mana denial can get pretty brutal between Waste, Strip and Zuran Orb+Balance Combo. I was thinking of adding another color or something. I know that hurts Land Tax, but a few fetches and a couple duals wouldn't be that hard to come by with all the cards you draw. It needs a better way to win. Moat+ Mindcensor just isn't powerful enough. I am really not sure where to go with this. I haven't been playing Vintage all that long, so if there is so broken ass combo that I am not aware of please share.

I played Tin-Street Hooligan, Gorilla Shaman main and Shattering Spree, Seal of Primordium in the board and it wasn't enough. Sphere still wrecked me. Between Waste/Strip+crucible, Spheres, Tangle Wire and Sundering Titan I just can't get that to be a good match up.  I normally operate on little mana, so taking away just one or two lands and dropping a single sphere pretty much leaves me defenseless.

My thinking is that Shop decks don't play mana spells per turn. They normally have a pretty stocked hand. So putting a little clock on while I find the mana to clear so of their stuff would allow me to finish up with a weenie race.

I have been finding stax/shop decks to be a problem. Between Tangle Wire, Sphere and Crucible+Waste/Strip it's just a hard match up with these slower, meta tuned, versions of TMWA. Maybe Vise is a good side board card given the large hands that stax tends to have for most of the game.

On Saturday I ran a RG build of TMWA. I was happy with it, but I think it needs some tweaking. (I didn't know if this is actually considered RG beats, but i only run 2 cards that use green) So I'll give you the list, the run down and what I am thinking about for changes.

Lands:17
4 Wooded Foothill
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures:25
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifacts:14
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Skull Clamp

Spells:4
4 Lightning Bolt

Side Board:15
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Red Elemental Blast

The deck was really solid. I had main deck answers for every match up to compliment the raw power of the awe inspiring Tarmogoyf.

What doesn't change:
Tarmogoyf: Most games come down to do if I can get down goyf. I don't think I need to explain how goyf works and why he is good.

Magus of the Moon: After goyf this is the most important card in the deck. Blood Moon on a stick proved to be the answer to almost everything. Opponent has Shop to power things out, Factory to Block, Academy, Strip/Waste+Crucible, Library, Underground Sea, Tundra, the list goes on. The 2/2 body is just icing on the cake. He really doesn't effect my mana base at all. I always use a fetch to grab my forest before I play him(which seems to happen 100% of the time from my experience). The only cards that use green are Goyf and Hooligan. Since my forest is unstripable with Magus down, it never really turns into a problem.

Tin Street Hooligan: {G} Blow up target Artifact with a 2/1 body..........sweet. There is just so many targets with so little time. Between Magus, Rod and Hooligan Stax isn't a problem. And seeing how the New England Meta seems to go, that is a really good thing.

Mogg Fanatic: I originally wasn't going to play this. After playing with it I'm not sure why I wouldn't. Kills Bob, Welder and takes out Bridges. Just having another beater isn't the worst thing either.

Null Rod: Artifacts are huge right now. Everything from Moxen to Top. It just a good card.

What I want to/am thinking about changing:
Vexing Shusher: OMG TEH UBER L33TNEsS. Blue is and will always be a Vintage power house. This means that counters will never go away and the means you need ways around them. That and chalice on 2 completely wrecks me(as rare as it is). So you would think that a 2/2 for 2 that 1 extra mana gets all your stuff to stick would be awesome. Well it is. I don't know if I should play 4 main or play another in the board.

Gorilla Shaman: It's good, but i really never get to use it. The one time I did use it, it was great and it led to a victory vs Oath(the decks worst match up). But most of the time It just more important to get down other things then it is to kill their moxen. I am not sure If I want to take them out or just take one out so I don't run into it as much. Maybe it's just a board card, but board room is kinda tight so IDK.

Simian Spirit Guide: Not complaining what so ever. I'm playing with 4 next time.

Skull Clamp: This was a really interesting case. I never wanted to see it most of the time. It was just more important to have threats on the table then in my hand. Then I played against Oath and I had all these stupid spirit tokens that just took up space on the table. Then Clamp turns into a draw engine that led to my surprising victory. The thing that really hurts it is Null Rod, a staple of the deck. If I am going keep it, I am going to move it to the board just for Oath.

Thorn of Amethyst: This is hard. It was really really good. It kills combo and screws pretty bad with control. It did hurt a little when I would drop it and then draw into bolts and rods. I am not sure that is that much of a problem seeing as it hurts my opponent more. I was thinking about moving them to the board, but I know I would end up siding them in almost every game. Since aggro isn't that popular, I think maybe its better to keep them main and board them out on the rare case of Fish, Goblins and the Mirror which as of late aren't that popular. The draw back is that they make my stuff harder to play. Since I don't play a lot of non creatures it's not a big deal. The problem is that it limits what I can play. It makes me want to keep away from things over 2 mana. But I can't argue with results and this card really preforming. Its the matches that I had to Side it out that I lost. Really looking for Aid on this one.

Lightning Bolt: It good. It kills Everything that Fanatic does and Juggernaut. A lot of people are packing new things like Canonist and Tezzeret, which this clears up quite nicely. It even plays well with Thorns. Sure it becomes Incinerate, but incinerate is fine when 90% of your opponents deck cost more then my single burn spell. The problem is that it doesn't kill things like opposing Goyfs and Oath Creatures. To get around this I am going to try Stingscourger in the board.

Mana Base: The mana base was great. The only thing I want to change is that I want to play 2 forests instead of 1. This way even if my one gets stripped I can still fetch the other or hope to draw into it later. Not that important, but it could be.

Side Board:I built the SB thinking that I was going to see nothing, but Shops and Storm variants. Turns out that I didn't play a single Storm deck. I am not saying that I don't need to prepare for Storm(even though there is so much hate out there right now that I am pretty sure Storm is on the way out).
Tormod's Crypt: The idea was that It takes care of dredge half decently and compliments Fanatic. Then against Storm I would take out their yard in response to them playing Yawg Will. I never actually got to use it. There was only 1 dredge player and I never played against a storm deck. I don't Know if I need this card taking up 4 spots anymore.

Shattering Spree: I came for Shop, I saw Shop, I conquered Shop. This really does turn that match up pretty one sided. Its not bad against decks that run more then just a couple mox. Its important to know that it doesn't play well with Thorn. Knowing when which is better is turns into a big deal. Made that mistake once......only once.

Seal of Primordium: No. This is the one card out of everything that I am just getting rid of. It does two things. Kills artifacts. I already have 14 cards(with the current list), 11 in the main. Kills enchantments. The only enchantment I can think that I have ever run into is Oath and I am pretty sure there is better options. Sure I can play it proactively to try and get around counters, but I sure there is better answers.

Pyrostatic Pillar: I ran this to stop Storm. After thinking it over, I am pretty sure that this is a great answer. However It doesn't play well with Thorn. On the other hand, Have 7 hate cards isn't a bad thing. I don't see one being more helpful then the other, so I am pretty that I can play both and just drop what ever I draw first. Sure Thorn makes it harder to play Pillar, but Pillar doesn't make it harder to play Thorn. Maybe my thinking on this is wrong, but that I why I am asking you guys for options.

Red Elemental Blast: Should have run at least 3. I see blue, I put them in. Even with Thorn down, is still a good price for its power.

What I am thinking about changing
Like I said, the deck is pretty solid. Here are the revisions that I have made so far. I am not done yet, so list is incomplete. The Main is missing 3 cards(57/60) and the Board is missing 6(9/15(duh)).
Out:
-1 Mountain
-3 Goriila Shaman
-3 Skull Clamp
In:
+1 Forest
+1 Vexing Shusher
+1 Simian Spirit Guide
+1 Lotus Petal
Lands:17
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures:24
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifacts:12
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Null Rod

Spells:4
4 Lightning Bolt

Side Board:15
3 Shattering Spree
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stingscourger

I'm not saying you take out Mox/Lotus. But artifacts that only make colorless don't let you cast your spells first turn. rite of flame with a mox gets Warchief out turn 1.