[Article] How Type 1 became more accessable and evolved.

[Zherbus]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8364

[Moxlotus]

Very very nice article.  This is one of the best articles I've seen for a while.  I fully support your opinion of how proxies have helped type 1.  I also fully support your numbers of either 10 or 13 for proxy numbers.  Basically everything I thought about the format, you wrote.  I love you <3

[Matt]

You're without a doubt the best Type One writer on SCG.

[everythingitouchdies]

This is one of the best written articles I have read in a long time.

I "grew up" in a non-proxy sanctioned type 1 environment starting a little over a year ago. I have in that time gone from having no power to 8 pieces and 4 bazaars as well as 4 mana drains. I have won a few pieces this year at proxy tournaments and have been helped along by players in the community.

Our sanctioned metagame started out much as you described, but it eventually became something different. It eventually settled into a small group of powered players meeting weekly and constantly trying to outdo what others had done. It created an atmosphere that was more like a playgroup than a tournament, but not without its benefits.

However, at the current time a few of us have broken away from that group for a multitude of reasons, and it has been near impossible to bring new players into the fold. Thus the need for proxies, the need to enhance the scene by allowing everyone to play at least on a stable field.

I support five proxy, but I feel when you allow more it gets out of hand. I played at a 12 tournament for a time walk a while back and people were playing proxied wastelands.

I intend to use your article as a springboard to get more proxied play locally... michigan has only recently and still very slowly moved into the proxy scene.

Once again, great article.

EITD

[PacmanXSA]

This is one of the best written articles I have read in a long time.

I "grew up" in a non-proxy sanctioned type 1 environment starting a little over a year ago. I have in that time gone from having no power to 8 pieces and 4 bazaars as well as 4 mana drains. I have won a few pieces this year at proxy tournaments and have been helped along by players in the community.

Our sanctioned metagame started out much as you described, but it eventually became something different. It eventually settled into a small group of powered players meeting weekly and constantly trying to outdo what others had done. It created an atmosphere that was more like a playgroup than a tournament, but not without its benefits.

However, at the current time a few of us have broken away from that group for a multitude of reasons, and it has been near impossible to bring new players into the fold. Thus the need for proxies, the need to enhance the scene by allowing everyone to play at least on a stable field.

I support five proxy, but I feel when you allow more it gets out of hand. I played at a 12 tournament for a time walk a while back and people were playing proxied wastelands.

I intend to use your article as a springboard to get more proxied play locally... michigan has only recently and still very slowly moved into the proxy scene.

Once again, great article.

EITD

As I have bore witness to many of the dismal showings in Michigan over the past couple of times that I've crossed the border, I agree that proxies are going to have to become mainstream to grow the format in this area.  I'm sure that same concept applies to most other areas aside from the few Vintage mechas across the US.  

Zherbus:  Great read.  Your passion for the format truly shows in your writing.

Pac

[MaxxMatt]

Great Article Steve!
It is complete and clear in every part.






I have your same feelings about what we could do to improve and develop te format.

"Proxies and Good Prices" are a safe path to follow in order to grow our format as well as the others.





On the other hand, I'm "fighting" since months if not years, in a place where Proxies are not considered the good choice to add to our format.

I hear stupid things such as
" ... I paid a lot for my p9-cards.. Why should anyone play with Proxies paying nothing?"  

or

" ...My goal is to win, neverthless who I'm going to face; the simpler is my opponent, the better would be for me... "


Aside from these useless words, I hear some insightfull people that tried to argue to this issue in a more constructive way.

My goal and your goal, would be to improve the format as much as we could and to develop T1 as much as the other formats.
This statements assume that the WotC should have some role in this challenge because we need his assent to level t1 to the other formats .

Their reasoning bring to this conclusion:

If we continue to play T1 always in a more professional way, progressively ( and maybe slowly ) rising the level of the players and the level of the decks at our tourneys without organizing unsanctioned events, there would be a chance that WotC would notice the interest of more than 30000000 players all around the world for Vintage and would let us to play T1 parifing it to T2, Block and Extended.


If WotC continue to see us not as a possible font of money ( players which play with proxies would not buy often new cards ), but as "people that continued to play with old cards" , she would not try to add T1 in a professional contest.

Can T1 gain a better and more professional role in this way?
Can WotC start to organize PT-style-events for us IF SHE WOULD REALIZE how many players and money she could do with us?

I told last week with three of the Wizards' Italia directors about future project about t1 and some possible evolution of the game and the first thing that they told to me was that "... WE NOTICED THAT YOU HAD FAR MORE PLAYERS AT YOUR TOURNEYS rather we at out ptq ...".

I think that if other people with some position inside WotC would notice it and would notice that ANYONE HERE is Powering-himself to play with all the needed cards and decks in order to win, they could decide to invest money and time in t1 MORE than now.


What do you think about it?




  MaxxMatt

[Yawgs_sammich]

Great article!

I noticed that in both your article and in everythingittouchesdies's post, that there was some animosity towards people proxying "cheap" cards.  I assume this is in actual tournaments as opposed to playtesting or playing for funsies.  I agree that in actual tournaments, proxied commons are annoying.  especially at larger events (such as SCGP9) where those commons are readily available 20 feet away, with the bonus that you are supporting a company that supports the format.  My suggestion is: why not create (an obviously unofficial) banned list for proxies?  or un-banned i guess it would be.  say only the P10, workshops, bazaars, masks, drains (with card value about $100USD as the cut-off) can be proxied, or lower it to about $50 to enable proxied berserk/abyss/moat/void-level cards.

[Covetous]

What are your feelings on unlimited proxy tourneys, or those with so many proxies that almost anyone can play with almost any deck?  I have held 3 power tourneys, all unlimited proxy because I didn't want people to not play because they had only type 2 cards.  I personally think this is the best way to run a tourney if you are trying to increase type 1 in your local metagame.  But, the real question is:

What is the optimal number of proxies to allow the best metagame development without hosing the people who have spent cash on their power cards?

Now that almost every successful deck runs drains/bazaars/shops/masks, each of which is over $100, does extending the number of proxies to allow maximum deckbuilding flexibility for unpowered players make sense?  Thirteen or fourteen proxies in most decks means ONLY the $100+ cards, so if a player only owns 4 duals they might not be able to build what they want to play.  The real question is do we care?  I personally have a full set of 9 plus 4 drains and 4 shops, and I used to have 4 bazaars (I sold 'em).  Yet I still think it's best for the meta to allow everyone an equal shake by leveling the playing field in terms of card access (i.e. make type 1 like type 2 in this respect where anyone can build any deck).  Any thoughts?

p.s.  Great article--they always are.  And we all know you love to hear that.

[jpmeyer]

While people (myself included) do get annoyed when you're using your proxies on something like REB, I do want to note that at the last Waterbury, my proxies were cards like Seeds of Innocence, Root Maze, and Ticking Gnomes.  These are all like $1 cards (max) but they can be impossible to find.  That's another little bonus that I like with proxies: the ability to play weird cards without having to worry about where the hell you are going to find say, a Tracker.

[jdl]

While people (myself included) do get annoyed when you're using your proxies on something like REB, I do want to note that at the last Waterbury, my proxies were cards like Seeds of Innocence, Root Maze, and Ticking Gnomes.  These are all like $1 cards (max) but they can be impossible to find.  That's another little bonus that I like with proxies: the ability to play weird cards without having to worry about where the hell you are going to find say, a Tracker.

A writer for Star City Games is telling us that Seeds of Innocence, Root Maze, and Ticking Gnomes are impossible to find?

[jpmeyer]

They are when you think of them a few days from the tourney and there isn't time for them to arrive in the mail.

[Rico Suave]

Wow.  Absolutely right.

I remember when people were saying proxies would flush the prices of regular cards down the drain.  Good job for sticking with the proxies.

[VGB]

I remember when people were saying proxies would flush the prices of regular cards down the drain.

You made the point obliquely, but I thought I'd come right out and say it:  the effect of proxies on regular card prices has been to drive them exorbitantly up.  I think there is a direct correlation between the increasing popularity of proxy tournaments and skyrocketing T1 staple card prices - for whatever that's worth.

[Zherbus]

That's what I said.

[VGB]

That's what I said.

Yah - with the unspoken obvious reason being that once players get bit with the power bug, unending visions of minty Beta Lotii dancing in their heads drive them to desperate acts of Ebay extortion.

[Meddling Mike]

making 10-13 proxies the new standard seems like a great idea, It definitely increases the amount of people that can play and makes my life alot easier.

[jdl]

Wow.  Absolutely right.

I remember when people were saying proxies would flush the prices of regular cards down the drain.  Good job for sticking with the proxies.

It's worth remembering that the exact same argument is made against the idea of reprints too.

Proxies are good for the short-term, because it's something that the players can control.  Eventually, however, WotC needs to realize that reprints are a giant cash cow just waiting to be milked.  They would also do wonders for the Type 1 tournament scene.

[Xman]

Zherbus,

Great article man.

I do have to say, I to remember the day when you could get a Lotus for about $250-$300 & a mox for $75-$100.  But where I lived, there was no reason to get them.

I would have htought they would have stabalized at $150-$200 for a Mox and $400-$500 for a loti, but I can see I was wrong.  Do you foresee an end of the prices going up where it becomes AGAIN to expensive to play T1?  I say this primarily b/c power would be to expensive, and the other staples shooting up.  Also, with the prices keep rising, prices for tournaments will go up (slowly, but surely).

[Vood]

Here up north in Ottawa, Canada

We did our first 5 proxy + 1$ for each additional one recently. The top prize was an Unlimited Mox Sapphire guaranteed. We took the risk on our own to see if we could sustain vintage tournaments with great prizes. Ottawa is more of a limited, standard format area. We were very happy that 47 people came over, with almost nobody from out of town. The organizer was able to give out more prizes and seems like everyone really enjoyed the tournament. This meant that we are going to have more nice Vintage tournaments. In 10 days, the first Black Lotus tournament in our area will occur, following the same proxy format.

Suddenly, Toronto is going to try it out also.  Then Im sure Montreal will follow.  Vintage is the most interesting format and it's growing popularity can only be attributed to proxies.  

Those who are against proxies, are against vintage. They can't complain about card value, they can't complain about having more people playing, they can only complain about losing more often within a more balanced environment.

[Mixing Mike]

Very well done.  It's nice to know I got into T1 near the beginning of innovation, and when 5 proxies was new.

[BigDCool247]

I know as well as anyone how proxies have helped the enviornment evolve.  I used to be a sligh player because I could not make anything better and thought I can't afford competative T1.  However with the local proxy tournaments and the bigger T1 proxy events, I began to believe this untrue, I invested in drains, duals and other T1 staples because I knew that with proxies I too could play with the powered players and not just auto lose to T1 brokeness.  Not to beat a dead horse or anything but proxies give the average unpowered player the ability to play the top tier of decks and once you do this you almost never want to go back to true budget/hate decks, thus creating a healthy meta and a good return to those fortunate enough to own or invest in power.

Also great article a very enjoyable read.

[Dozer]

Zherbus, great article, both in content and writing!

As for proxying commons, the first Mox proxy tournament in Germany (November 20th, Berlin) will use the following rule: P9, LoA, Bazaar and Workshop may be proxied, and you may proxy one other card for as many copies as you need (i.e. if it is unrestricted up to four copies may be proxied).

That is a solution that solves the need for power cards but retains the collectible/ card-access part of the format. If you find that 5, 10 or 13 proxies are not enough for you but unlimited proxies are too many, you might try this configuration out. Of course, this prevents players from proxying more than one hard-to-find common, but I think it is a great way to overcome the entry barrier without scary all-proxy decks.

Dozer

[Zherbus]

As for proxying commons, the first Mox proxy tournament in Germany (November 20th, Berlin) will use the following rule: P9, LoA, Bazaar and Workshop may be proxied, and you may proxy one other card for as many copies as you need (i.e. if it is unrestricted up to four copies may be proxied).

I think this is great! I'd love to see how ze Germans react to a proxy environment.

[monSt4r]

Well proxies are great (I don't own power ) and they are responsible for getting people into T1...I love the rule where 10 proxies are available, and think that +1$ for a card is a nice bargain for everyone (plus it will surely make poeple buy the "cheaper" cards ) ... maybe even with proxies power prices will go down  

[andrewpate]

If we continue to play T1 always in a more professional way, progressively ( and maybe slowly ) rising the level of the players and the level of the decks at our tourneys without organizing unsanctioned events, there would be a chance that WotC would notice the interest of more than 30000000 players all around the world for Vintage and would let us to play T1 parifing it to T2, Block and Extended.


If WotC continue to see us not as a possible font of money ( players which play with proxies would not buy often new cards ), but as "people that continued to play with old cards" , she would not try to add T1 in a professional contest.

Can T1 gain a better and more professional role in this way?
Can WotC start to organize PT-style-events for us IF SHE WOULD REALIZE how many players and money she could do with us?

I don't think that bringing Vintage up to Standard's level would be a good idea at all.  Wizard's is never going to allow proxies in a sanctioned tournament, so a Standard-level popularity is going to mean Black Lotuses selling for $10,000 and 2000-rated players running budget decks.  The bottom line is that enough Mana Drains to support playsets for a PTQ circuit simply do not exist on the face of the planet.

[Covetous]

The interesting thing about proxies in sanctioned events is that wizards has already made all of the money they are going to off all of the original power sets (ABU/AN/AQ/LE/etc.).  So, in a way, it wouldn't either help WotC or hinder them to have proxy tourneys for type 1.  They get no money from each piece of power sold today.  The only thing which might make them money would be to re-print some of these cards, which would piss a lot of people off.  Plus, most of those cards are just too busted to re-introduce to the format.  They would have to make some entirely new set like chronicles which is not legal in any format other than vintage/1.5, which would be very very strange.  Allowing proxy type 1 tourneys wouldn't be bad for them in any way I can think of--it would be interesting for them to allow tourneys with a certain proxy limit to actually be sanctioned.

On topic--proxy tourneys are great because they allow people who can't or don't want to invest in overpriced cards to play with these cards and thus actually be competitive.  What's the fun in owning someone playing thornE.dec with your fully-powered tendrils.dec?  Where's the challenge?  It's much better to have a level playing field like in (most) other formats.