[Deck Discussion] Mono Red Workshop (non-uba)

[Bill Copes]

The past few days I have been trying to think of a deck designed to abuse winter orb.  Here is what I've come up with so far.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Winter Orb
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Orb of Dreams
1 Trinisphere

2 Solemn Simulacrum  3 Juggernaut
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Shattering Spree

1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

PROPOSED SIDEBOARD FOR NEW ENGLAND
4 Pyroblast
3 Slice N Dice
3 Jester's Cap
2 Duplicant
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree


The primary objective of this deck is to achieve a lock between Winter orb and Tangle Wire, while sustaining it with goblin welders.  All of the atypical workshop lock pieces and creatures are included, but here is a rundown anyway.

Chalice of the Void: Played for 0 on the play, whatever # is best on the draw.

Gorilla Shaman: Eats artifact permanents.

Crucible of Worlds: Recurs strips and barbarian ring.

Orb of Dreams: Slows down opponent dramatically -- included primarily to make fetchlands horrible.

Winter Orb: Since this deck is designed to rely primarily on artifact mana and the free red provided by Simian Spirit guide winter Orb, in conjunction with Orb of Dreams and Tangle Wire will assure that your opponent will be tapped down to a minimal amount of resources while this remains in play.

Goblin Welder: The meddling backbone of any mono red shop deck.

Simian Spirit Guide: These are included for a few reasons.

• With this and a shop in hand, you can play a turn one welder/shaman after dropping a 3 mana lock piece.
• They speed up opening hands that don't have shop or moxen (although, depending on the hand drawn, would most likely be a mulligan).
• They help you cast your finishers more quickly.
• They help you cast spells under the lock.
• Multiples + mountains make shattering spree awesome.
• Enable "Force of Pyroblast"
• When you don't need the mana ability, they are a castable beater.

Triskelion: Anti-fish weaponry.

Karn: Gorilla Shaman #3, and enables your lock pieces to become men, for a quick finish.

Solemn Simulacrum: To me this slot is questionable, since their comes into play ability is somewhat negated by the lock in the mid- late game, but they are excellent at helping you develop early, are a beater and draw you cards.


Cards I would love to play, but haven't found room for (or probably don't belong):

Juggernaut: It's my favorite card of all time.  It ends games quickly.  It's easy to cast.  Unfortunately, they're only good when you have 3-4 in the deck.  If they come down too late, they won't win.

Sphere of Resistance: I generally try to fit these into every shop deck I play.  They are wonderful at slowing down combo, and taxing mana-tight decks.  I just think that including these in the deck is not only lock piece overkill, but would also dilute the already minimal amount of threats.

Thought Prison: These would most likely be in the sideboard.  I heart duress big and much.  But since the deck is mono red, this is probably the only similar answer available.

Mishra's Factory: Another great multi-purpose card.  The problem with it is that it isn't very synergistic with winter orb.  It rules with crucible, however.

Sundering Titan: The focus of the deck is to tie up the opponents resources so that they can't cast spells.  Titan blows up lands, I understand.  But what's the point of blowing up lands that won't untap anyway?


The sideboard is mainly aimed at hurting gifts, although many of the cards are splashable for different archetypes.  For a New England meta of fish, gifts and combo, I think would work.  You do have to watch out for the occasional Dread Return Ichorid or oath, but the chances you run into them are pretty minimal.  If you can get Cap off against oath, then you've probably won.  Ichorid is only horrible if it's the Dread Return variety.  You can stall with your strips, slice n dice, and trike, until you find a crypt.  I'd even board in duplicants so that you can (hopefully) weld them in against whatever beast they decide to animate.

I would really like to make this deck work.  Workshops need to step up in New England.  Thanks in advance for any input.

[madmanmike25]

Well here's my input.  It seems you built a deck with a lot of soft locks.  It also doesn't have much in the way of damage output for a decent clock.  You need one or the other.  Karn is the only thing that would improve your clock, and you only run one with no tutors.

Juggernaut: It's my favorite card of all time. It ends games quickly. It's easy to cast. Unfortunately, they're only good when you have 3-4 in the deck. If they come down too late, they won't win.

So run 3-4 of them.  Do you think you have enough time with soft locks AND Solemn?  Late game Solemn does better?  Solemn is decent alone.  Fun with Welder.  Good with 2 Welders, or 1 Welder 2 Solemns.  Juggs is just dmg.  What is your goal?  Lockdown, Beatdown or Tricks?

You need to consider Smokestack, Juggernaut, and Jester's Cap.  A first turn Smokey is nothing to scoff at and is the final nail in the coffin when combined with soft locks.

Juggernaut isn't nearly as good first turn as Smokey, but still smacks Fish in the gills.

Jester's Cap can give you random wins, but doesn't alter the game state in any way (if you are losing, you are still losing after activation).  Screams SB to me, but some love em maindeck.

1 Shattering Spree seems too random to me without tutors.

Just some suggestions,  Good Luck

Mike

[Bill Copes]

Thanks for the suggestions, Mike.  I guess to clarify, the goal of the deck is lockdown.  Perhaps it is trying to fill too many shoes.  Do you consider multiple tangle wires being welded in and out with a winter orb in play too soft a lock?

1 Shattering Spree seems too random to me without tutors.

I'm mostly considering the lone shattering spree to be a gorilla shaman #3, except that it blows up null rod much easier.  Should I move more sprees maindeck?

Jester's Cap can give you random wins, but doesn't alter the game state in any way (if you are losing, you are still losing after activation).   Screams SB to me, but some love em maindeck.

Check the proposed sideboard 

[Methuselahn]

There's this card called Rishidan Port.  It does amazing things with Tangle Wire and especially Winter Orb.

Instead of Red magic, you may want to just try brown.

[bdg4life]

There's this card called Rishidan Port. It does amazing things with Tangle Wire and especially Winter Orb.

Instead of Red magic, you may want to just try brown.

There is also the option of running blue for stasis, bounce, and ice.

[Methuselahn]

Given the need for several islands to feed Stasis, how would you propose to splash Stasis into a red workshop deck?

[WhiteWolf]

About Winter Orb: I played this annoying little thing in my MUD lists and I can say you that it’s actually very good, especially against Control decks. Combining it with Tangle Wire, Orb of Dreams and/or Rishadan Port is very strong. People often don’t expect the card and catching them off guard and tapped out when slapping down Winter Orb is often a good opening to a win. I can imagine that using Goblin Welder to recur Tangle Wires with Winter Orb in play can be very good.

Inspired by Harlequin’s latest builds I’ve been toying around with a monored Workshop deck too. It has put up pretty good results. Pyrostatic Pillar has tested very very good! You might want to try them. The best thing is the fact that it can’t be bounced by Rebuild and Hurkyl’s, and often Chain of Vapor is cut off by Chalice @ 1. One Pillar spells trouble, two Pillars is just insane! I’m even so in love with them at the moment that I’m contemplating testing 2-4 Spellshock to raise the Pillar count.

I’ve also tested Simian Spirit Guide but I’m not sold just yet. They take the place of permanent mana-sources and often I would rather have them to be that. The choice between early game acceleration / late game beater is nice however.

I would play 4 Orb of Dreams because it’s a card you want to throw down first turn ideally.

I also play maindeck Shattering Sprees wich are broken against Stax (wich I see a lot in my meta) and nice against control and combo as a “Wrath of Moxen”, especially when their Moxen come into play tapped thanks to Orb of Dreams. Besides that I play maindeck Heretics wich of course also rule against Stax and kill off tapped artifact mana.

Actually, the deck consists off two groups of cards:

Control & combo hate:
-   Pyrostatic Pillar
-   Chalice of the Void
-   Null Rod
-   Orb of Dreams
-   Blood Moon
-   …

Stax hate:
-   Viashino Heretic
-   Shattering Spree
-   Solemn Simulacrums
-   …

I almost never see Fish and Ichorid in my meta but these are solved by the MD Orb of Dreams, SB Ensnaring Bridges, SB Duplicants and SB Slice&Dices. I'm not going to post a complete decklist because I'm still testing the list and it changes very often.

A friend in my playgroup is testing a "Bloodless" version wich allows him to run Bazaars, Wastes, ... His list has even more in common with yours than mine. I hope he (OddMutation) adds his opinion on this thread. (I'll make him do it  )

I believe slower and "triggered" locks like Smokestack and Tangle Wire are going to be dropped more and more in favor of stuff like Orb of Dreams, Blood Moon and Pyrostatic Pillar. At least, in my testing they have shown better results.

WhiteWolf

[Harlequin]

On thing that everyone seems intent on is running:

Blood Moon
Null Rod

Chalice.

I really don't see why chalice is good.  Blood Moon and Null Rod (and orb to a degree) are solid together because they play the "color screw" game. Useing those lock peices, you're essentially allowing your opponent plenty of mana/perminants ... but its all worthless. 

On the flip side you have the more traditional "Contriction" lock cards, namely - Chalice, Tangle Wire, Smoke Stacks, Sphere of Resistance, Crucible/Strip.  With this package you try and prevent them from getting enough resources on the board to do anything relevent. 

when it comes down to it, both locks are failible in different reguards.   But the Static Lock can be achieved in less cards within the deck, thats why I have been exploring it.   Aslo I find that top decks right now have a difficult time dealing with Moon, so thats another plus. 

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On the topic of Winter's Orb, I don't nessisarily see how it is better than blood moon.  It doesn't even really give you access to Bazaar or Wasteland because you still need to choose what to untap.  It also doesn't lend itself well to the constriction lock either because it doesn't actually remove the lands from the play field.  However it has merrit along side tanglewire.  It may be a bridge between Moon/Rod and Tanglewire... but I'm not sure you really need that level of prison.

================================================

Lastly, I have been playing with Greater Gargidon lately in my mono-red builds and I really think that it has strong game right now.  Mainly because it allows me to "mini-go-off" by destroying all my symetric lock peices (orb and Rod) then play out a bunch of stuff, and hopefully weld them back in or replay another one from my hand.  Gargidon also is a good diversion from real danger.  I often find that my oppoent makes strange plays based on suspended Greater Gargadon.

[madmanmike25]

I really don't see why chalice is good.  Blood Moon and Null Rod (and orb to a degree) are solid together because they play the "color screw" game. Useing those lock peices, you're essentially allowing your opponent plenty of mana/perminants ... but its all worthless.

I personally like Chalice because it's *free* disruption.   Meaning I can lay one out @ 0, then play another threat.  Null Rod is kinda the backup plan if they go first.  Chalice @ 2 also wrecks Merchant Scroll, Mana Drain, and Oath and is not at all difficult to cast with Workshop.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that its pretty diverse.

I think you are right about Blood Moon and Winter Orb.  It's one or the other.  When I tried Winter Orb they were golden against control decks though.  Basic Islands are too common nowadays as well. 

Are you sold on Blood Moon maindecked?  What matches would you rather have anything else?  Currently I'm thinking it's a SB card, so help me out here.

I often find that my oppoent makes strange plays based on suspended Greater Gargadon.

Hehe I bet thats some funny stuff, give us some examples please.  What turn can you usually get him out?

[Harlequin]

@Chalice:  I personally feel that chalice only beats bad players.  I admit that is a really jaded look at the card, but honestly, there is no such thing as a deck that is not prepaired for a chalice @ X.  Now that being said, Null Rod isn't really any more stable.   No well tuned deck will scoop to Null Rod either. 

I will admit that it is a versitile card, but remember it can't do everything at once.  For this reason its x4 chalice or 0.  In essence, you need chalice early and in multiple to make it most powerful.  So most times I run 3 rods with 1 in the board.  Which leave 1 maindeck slot open for another card.

Null Rod may be less versitile but it is also more reliable.  In the early game chalice and rod serve a similar purpose.  I think they are also about equal in disadvantage: chalice is better on the play while rod costs mana.
Rod in the late game has a slight advanrage because it can also stop "win" cards like Trike, Pentavus, Mindslaver, Memory Jar.  As well as board sweepers like Engineered explosives (wich with colorless mana can dodge any chalice).

Ever sinse Repeal was printed, I have given up on chalice.  This is esp true here in New England where Brassman Repealx4 Gifts is popular.  Also sometimes slaver decks will still have that mox monkey hanging around ready to handle your chalice. 

So Chalice vrs Null Rod is a close call.  For the few minor reasons listed above I choose Rod.  Now In your build you go with Chalice + Rod.  This is also something I probably wouldn't do.  The cards are too similar.  If I wanted the extra push, I would probably opt for Null Rod + Gorrila Shaman.


@ Main Deck Blood Moon -  I am a huge fan of 4 on the main.  As I thought about it more, I think that Moon is in many ways superior to Winter's Orb. 

#1 - Enchant vrs Artifact.  for game 2, Hurkyl's, Rebuild, R&R, Shattering spree, etc ... all can hit orb.  The artifact can be an advantage if you already resolved a welder vrs countermagic.  But I still like think enchantments are vastly more dangerous than artifacts.

#2 - With orb, your oppoent can get double blue up fairly easily.  If they only untap one land, then play another land they get it.  Also if the land they untap is Tolarian, then obviously that is an issue.  With moon out, even if they fetch an island early they will still never get double blue up unless they hit Saphire or another basic island.  It also completely cuts them off from the splash colors they might be running.  Lastly, Winters orb can essentailly be "charged up" if not combined with another ability to tap them down.  They may be able to take several turns and build up a good amount of mana.

#3 - I will also aknowledge that given the issues in #2, you can over come those problems with Tanglewire and/or wasteland.  But that bring us to the final issue.  Blood moon is a stand alone powerhouse, and when coupled with null rod (another powerful stand alone) it can be extremely difficult to break.  Winter Orb requires other cards to make it good.  Wasteland, Tanglewires, Rishaden's, Icy manipulator, etc.  I think that Winter's Orb carries with it alot of excess bagage. 

Putting the concepts above together.  I think 3 rods, 4 moons, and 4 orb of dreams... essentially accomplishes a solid mana denial package for less cards that what you propose with Winter, Chalice, (rod), (wasteland), (orb of dreams), (tangle wires). 

If you go the winter route, then your entire plan is mana denial.  If you go with the Moon/Rod route then you can free up space for cards like Pyrostatic and/or REB.  That means you focus your attack on 2 fronts: mana denial -and- set up.


@ Gargadon.

Ususally I let Gargadon roll into play.  Taking generally 4-8 turns to come into play.   In testing, Gargadon is bad when you over commit on him.  Burning lands is very bad in my oppinion.  Basically I use Gargadon as a "Recycling Center"  so I'll chump block a Joten with a viashino or welder, then with damage on the stack - eat the blocker.  If you go to strip/waste a land... I'll eat it instead.  Shattering Spee is also not so bad when I just eat everything they target.  Lastly Solemn Simulacrum is potentially 3 time counters because I get 2 perm when I play him, and draw a card when I eat him.
Once Gargadon gets down to 4~ish counters naturally, I eat my Orb of Dreams and some other chaff and drop him into play -untapped- for a hasty swing. 

What makes people miss-play is how they do thier math.  They assume that I will be eating everything ASAP and plan accordingly.  I ended up winning a game because my opponent held back a FOW to stop my susspended Gargadon ... while I resoved threat after threat.    So the miss-plays are generally based on my opponent overestimating how strong Gargadon really is.

Basically, I'm not Turbo-Gargadon.dec.  He just is a solid pick for a deck that is all perminants and a slow-lock mana-denial deck.

[madmanmike25]

Hmm, I think we are going to have to disagree about Chalice.  It's not uncommon for me to play Chalce @ 0 AND @ 1 (which stops repeal/chain of vapor).  If you you are looking solely to keep moxen off the table, then your opinion of Chalice and Rod is correct.  I just think it's a great answer for many problems, especially when you know what your opponent is playing and what cards are critical for him.

@Gargadon-  I just thought about it and it seems like pretty sweet anti-Oath tech.  Heck, any deck that runs red can use it to eat orchard tokens.