My Elf Deck...Help please.

[rpf5029]

There's a glaring issue with Green Sun's Zenith, and in my opinion, it's a pretty big one:  When you get a creature from Green Sun's Zenith, you're not casting a creature, so Glimpse of Nature doesn't trigger.  There are very few situations in which you'll be tutoring for a disruptive creature of some sort, in which case you'd have to change the deck around completely.  Wirewood Symbiote may be better than Llanowar Elf, but only if you draw him to get the +1 card draw after you replay the bounced creature.  Granted, if you need to untap something in particular (Priest of Titania?) or you end up bouncing Quirion Ranger or Elvish Visionary (best case example) you still net increase a card, but I think it's largely dead in many scenarios.  I would love to be proven wrong, however...

[Sharkles]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[MaximumCDawg]

There's a glaring issue with Green Sun's Zenith, and in my opinion, it's a pretty big one:  When you get a creature from Green Sun's Zenith, you're not casting a creature, so Glimpse of Nature doesn't trigger.  There are very few situations in which you'll be tutoring for a disruptive creature of some sort, in which case you'd have to change the deck around completely.  Wirewood Symbiote may be better than Llanowar Elf, but only if you draw him to get the +1 card draw after you replay the bounced creature.  Granted, if you need to untap something in particular (Priest of Titania?) or you end up bouncing Quirion Ranger or Elvish Visionary (best case example) you still net increase a card, but I think it's largely dead in many scenarios.  I would love to be proven wrong, however...

I don't follow.  If I'm mid-combo and I have Llanowar, I spend G, I get an untapped elf and I draw one card.  If I have GSZ, then I spend 1G, get a Symbiote, bounce an elf, untap another elf, and replay the first elf for another G.  I end up with two untapped elves and I draw one card.  So the difference is just that GSZ requires two additional mana but nets you one additional untapped elf, which usually replaces the additional mana.  What am I missing?

[Stormanimagus]

I'm curious. Have people considered Joraga Treespeaker for this deck over a playset of Fyndhorn Elves? They replace themselves manawise on turn 2 if you have 2 mana up and from then on they are better. This might be very relevant vs. Shops where 1 extra mana can mean the difference between being able to cast something and not. For that matter, has anyone considered some number of Priest of Titania? For the same reason?

-Storm

[Sharkles]

There's a glaring issue with Green Sun's Zenith, and in my opinion, it's a pretty big one:  When you get a creature from Green Sun's Zenith, you're not casting a creature, so Glimpse of Nature doesn't trigger.  There are very few situations in which you'll be tutoring for a disruptive creature of some sort, in which case you'd have to change the deck around completely.  Wirewood Symbiote may be better than Llanowar Elf, but only if you draw him to get the +1 card draw after you replay the bounced creature.  Granted, if you need to untap something in particular (Priest of Titania?) or you end up bouncing Quirion Ranger or Elvish Visionary (best case example) you still net increase a card, but I think it's largely dead in many scenarios.  I would love to be proven wrong, however...

I don't follow.  If I'm mid-combo and I have Llanowar, I spend G, I get an untapped elf and I draw one card.  If I have GSZ, then I spend 1G, get a Symbiote, bounce an elf, untap another elf, and replay the first elf for another G.  I end up with two untapped elves and I draw one card.  So the difference is just that GSZ requires two additional mana but nets you one additional untapped elf, which usually replaces the additional mana.  What am I missing?

If you're going off why don't you have Nettle Sentinels out?  Nettle Sentinels untap with the Llanowar Elves giving you three mana via Heritage Druid.

@Storm:  The engine used in this deck allows for three elves to tap for   .  My goal is to win turn two so playing the Treespeaker would just be a 1/1 for .  I guess it's still the same except Llanowar or Fyndhorn out turn 1 is my ideal first turn and I wouldn't want to risk drawing a Treespeaker instead.

[MaximumCDawg]

That's irrelevant.  Sentinels untap with GSZ as well.

[rpf5029]

I'm curious. Have people considered Joraga Treespeaker for this deck over a playset of Fyndhorn Elves? They replace themselves manawise on turn 2 if you have 2 mana up and from then on they are better. This might be very relevant vs. Shops where 1 extra mana can mean the difference between being able to cast something and not. For that matter, has anyone considered some number of Priest of Titania? For the same reason?

-Storm

I've tried both. 

The main problem with Treespeaker is that it can be hard to get that second land drop.  Many times, playing a Fyndhorn followed by a Quirion Ranger is the play with only one land in the opening eight (nine if on the draw). 
I remember it being underwhelming, but it's definitely worth the revisit. 

I have tried the Priest of Titania...  theoretically it should do wonders against Shops, but the deck might just hate me.  Turn 1 land, mana guy, turn two priest should be awesome... but not hitting that second land hurts.  To be fair, however, my current list still runs 3 x Priest of Titania for just this purpose. 

[Sharkles]

That's irrelevant.  Sentinels untap with GSZ as well.

I was just saying I don't see the advantage in running GSZ.  I feel like it's a mana lost.  I know it lets you fetch any green creature, but I feel like running it over another creature is sub-optimal.  I guess I just feel like Pact gives you more for less because it still lets you draw.

EDIT:  Tried Emrakul this past weekend and I never got to win with him.  All the games I won were with Banefire.  But I'll keep him in there just in case.

[Sharkles]

So, I've been using Emrakul and Banefire, and a turn 2 Emrakul is scary, but even better was one game, I was playing someone who Mindbreak Trapped my Banefire and I knew he had sideboarded in 4 so I passed the turn and during my upkeep tapped 12 elves to pay for the three Summoner's Pacts I had played the previous turn.  During my main phase, I tapped my Gaea's Cradle and dropped Emrakul.  He only had four permanents on the field so he scooped.  I really think having him in there instead of Grapeshot is a really good decision.