Updating the B&R List

[Matt]

Well, this hypothetical deck SHOULD lose to Trinisphere, because that card basically shuts down the acceleration that makes Twist good. It's like saying "I'll bet you that a Mind Twist deck would lose to Misdirection!" Well, no shit.

I assume you mean Cabal Ritual. I don't agree with that, though, because (barring threshold) the +1 mana it generates will only get you one more card from the opponent's hand, which is not a very good tradeoff. Monolith is there for the second turn Twist, not the first.

I also make no claims that Twist decks would be played; only that it's not inconcievable that they could. Mind Twist remains (like Channel, and unlike Fork, Stroke, Geyser, Key) a dangerous card to unrestrict. There's no assurance that it would be re-broken, but the risk is sufficiently high for me to vote 'no'. Also, it's very important that anything we call for be correct; we don't want to unrestrict a card only to see it back on the list in less than a year. That would totally undermine any credibility we might have earned up to now, so I think we should only ask for changes to the lists that we're absolutely certain are safe.

That said, I'll throw some rough lists together.

[Smmenen]

I think the risk needs to be weighed against the archetype.

The risk that a combo deck could be given new tools is a much bigger risk than a control deck is given new tools.  Why?

Combo decks live in a very small threshold between broken and awful.  A small advantage can nudge it over that line.  Mind Twist willl NEVER be used in a combo deck.  It will be used in Control.  The risk that it will be too good is not sufficiently high at all to warrant keeping it on the restricted list.  This is why I will prefer to keep E. Tutor restricted, but not Fact or MInd Twist - both cards have no place anywhere except in contorl decks.

Steve

[jpmeyer]

The Onslaught Block analysis is a really important one for looking at how counters and removal affect the format.  At Venice, there were a bunch of different, interesting decks.  Once the PTQ session got around though, it became clear that the best deck was U/W control, and the reason was simple: any time that counters are available, they force any commonly played spell to cost as much or less than the spell.  The same thing holds true for creature removal.  Even though Discombobulate costed 2UU, that was still good enough for ONBC.  In Type 1, you have Duress, Force of Will, and Mana Drain as the best counters, but then you also still have Counterspell and Mana Leak available at 2 mana and pseudocounters in Stifle and Misdirection at less than 2 mana.  With removal, the most popular removal spells are Swords to Plowshares, Smother, and Fire/Ice.  You would have to massively overhaul the format in order to allow any spells that costed more than 3 mana.

[Matt]

Disclaimer: This represents all of four minutes' thought, and is by no means as nasty as a Twist deck could get. A version packing FoW or MisD (which rises to FoW-level in a Twist-heavy environment) would be worth testing.

Rough Mind Twist deck:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
// Lands
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        4 Underground Sea
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Swamp
        2 Snow-Covered Swamp
        1 Island
// Other Mana
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
// Ostensible Win Condition
        4 Phyrexian Negator
// Controlling Spells
        4 Duress
        4 Mind Twist
        4 Nether Void
// Tutors/Draw
        3 Tainted Pact
        3 Lim-Dul's Vault
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk

It's not sixty cards, but you get the basic idea. There's enough tutoring to find a turn-two Twist if you don't already have one, and that added consistency allows you to find the second half of the lock (Void or the mana to cast it turn 2-3) easily. It also would allow you to fill the final slots with silver bullets against problem matchups, a la the 1.x Dump Truck deck.

I'm willing to bet $5 that no Mind Twist deck is going to beat Tog or Trinistax more than 50% of the time

Furthermore, how many decks of any kind can post the numbers you're asking for? That's a very high mark to ask of a deck that is pure hypothesis.

[Smmenen]

The point I'm trying to make is that most of the time except in blue based control, Hymn, Unmask, and Duress are superior to Mind Twist.  This is true of this deck as well.  The VAST majority of the time, Duress is more functional than Mind Twist.  Mind Twist if unrestricted would see 2-3 in Keeper.  So What I say.

Your helping prove my point.  Hymn would be much better in that than mind twist in your deck.

Steve

[Matt]

No, Hymn would not be better in that deck. Hymn requires BB, which means that it is more often than not a turn two card, and that when it's a turn one card, it's no longer generating much advantage (no card advantage, and only random card quality). Hymn is too slow and inflexible, whereas Mind Twist can captalize on other broken cards. Why wouldn't the deck with more broken starts (i.e., Twists over Hymns) be the better deck?

You're right that Twist will never be used in combo, though, so it IS much safer than Channel or E.Tutor or some such. But just because a card can't (or won't) be used in combo doesn't mean that it's okay to unrestrict. Case in point: Balance, the ultimate control card.

[Smmenen]

Balance WOULD be in a combo deck.  That's the thing.  I would play 4 Balances in a deck that empties its hand plays Unmask and Rack all on turn one.  

Picture it.  Unmask picthing Duress.  Land, Dark Ritual, Mox, Chrome Sphere, Rack, Balance.  I might even play with Chains and Chalices too.  If I'm wrong about that, than Balance would not be aggressively used.  Balance is a mind twist that can easily and consistently be built into a deck that costs 2.  Unlike Mind Twist which costs 8 for the same effect on turn one.


Steve

[Rico Suave]

Alright.  Let's picture a control deck with unrestricted Mind Twist and unrestricted FoF, just like you guys are promoting.  

Are you guys honestly trying to tell me that this deck wouldn't wreck the metagame?  

Jp mentioned that a deck without Moxen wouldn't beat unrestricted Black Vise.  I don't see them beating the above deck, either.  Mana Drain something random, good game.  Tons of acceleration would naturally find it's way into the deck too, and then what next?  It would be the closest thing to a deck full of 1 card combos.

There IS a point where control gets too good.  That's why FoF went on the restricted list in the first place.

[Ensign]

Fork, Braingeyser, Stroke of Genius, Earthcraft, and Entomb are mostly harmless and have no business being restricted.  Voltaic Key falls into the same category.

None of this is as interesting as Ric_Flair's comments regarding the relationship between Library of Alexandria and Black Vise.  I don't see it as the two cards needing to balance each other, as much as both are good or bad under the same sorts of conditions.  That is, when players have full hands early enough in the game to matter, both Library of Alexandria and Black Vise are relevant cards.  If (control) players have to let their hand size dip down in the early game such that they can't keep a Library active, then what good is a Vice going to do?

The fact that so many decks concentrate on putting their entire hand into play by turn two makes Library poor in this particular metagame.  But by the same token that leaves Black Vise as a bad bolt to the dome.  They're both bad in the same matchups (combo/aggro) and good in the same ones (control).

So, in other words, how realistic is a seven-card hand after turn two?  How much does it change if people are actively trying to keep it high for LoA or low for Black Vise?

I don't think we can look at managing the restricted list from the perspective of a casual or unpowered player.  Unpowered metagames are going to be fundamentally different from powered metagames and are going to have their own category of broken cards that may or may not line up with what goes on in the highest levels of T1.  You might as well look at what is breaking Extended to draw your B/R list from.

From a different perspective, Library of Alexandria and Mind Twist are the only cards on the restricted list that show most of their power in the midgame, not in the first couple turns or in a combo deck.  Is there such a thing as a broken midgame card?  Does a card have to have a devastating effect during the first three turns for it to be restrictable, or is virtually guaranteeing victory on turn four good enough?

I think this has as much to do with what makes T1 a healthy environment as what decks are currently tier-one.

Peace,
-CxE

[dandan]

I seem to be missing something.

All this talk about how LoA isn't good in multiples seems to be true but irrelevant. One active LoA wins you the game. having more than 1 copy in your deck improves the chance of you getting your Library of "Got a strip? No? Shuffle for next game" Trust me, it isn't that hard to get 7 cards in hard playing control (except vs. discard).

Fork, Braingeyser, Stroke of Genius, Earthcraft, and Entomb are mostly harmless and have no business being restricted. Voltaic Key falls into the same category. Just thought I'd repeat the obvious.

Mind Twist - way too dangerous
Black Vise - OMG!! Please tell me you people are joking. I think I was the one who argued the colourless bolt back into Sligh when Sligh wasn't so bad. If it was good enough as a throw-in damage source in a mainly aggro deck could it be too good in a dedicated deck? I remember having SB Vises that I threw in vs, control. Strip, Sol Ring, double Vise good game. Vise is marginally weaker now that everyone has good artifact destruction but consider how good Vise gets if all spells cost at least three.

[Ric_Flair]

I suggested Vise and Balance to show the limit of what can be done.  I think that unrestricting Vise, Balance, Library, and Twist would have terrible effects on the metagame.  While we could unrestrict Vise and Library and have a balanced metagame, it would not necessarily be a FAIR metagame.  

I think I am not the only one that see this.  If the metagame is such that both control and aggro, depending on their opening hands can win very quickly that is a balanced metagame.  But this is not a fair metagame.  Any stumble of mana, any bad draw, or any bad opening hand spells defeat.  These elements are largely uncontrollable and while both archetypes would be able to capitalize on these missteps they would essentially make the game EVEN faster than it is now.  It would be balanced, fast, and unfair because losing would be the result of largely uncontrollable things.  I really believe that Vintage does not need to be sped up even if it is done in a way that is fair for aggro, combo, AND control.  Faster metagames result in less skill-intensive wins as opening draws become the single most important part of the game.  

Twist is bad for a different reason as is Balance.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I still fail to see how unrestricting Library would affect any match other than control mirrors. FoF, Stroke, and Braingeyser are too slow to be dangerous to the metagame as well. The idea of unresatricting Balance or Mind Twist is preposterous. Balance is simply the most broken card ever printed, while multiple Twists simply ends the game against anything they hit.

As for the others, Fork needs to be off the list, as does Earthcraft. Mox Diamond probably wouldn't be that bad either.

[JACO]

This thread should really be closed. It is either:
a) a joke thread (to test people), in the spirit of the Doomsday and the 'Revenge of 1997' threads
b) the worst Banned/Restricted discussion I have ever seen in my life.

With each post/reply, the amount of absurdity to continues to mount. Half of you weren't even playing when these cards were restricted in Type 1 in the first place, so can we please stop the nonsense now?!

Black Vise, Fact or Fiction, Voltaic Key, Library of Alexandria, Mox Diamond, Crop Rotation, Balance, and Mind Twist were put there for a reason. Never mind that this is a different era, that only applies to a few cards on there (i.e. Hurkyl's Recall, Recall, Fork). The cards on the list have been earmarked for a reason, because they're broken. Yes Steve, some are certainly more broken than others, and we all know that. We don't need the Rhodes Scholars of Type 1 to tell us that Voltaic Key isn't as broken as Yawgmoth's Will, because it's obvious.

It's also obvious that this thread is an embarrasment and needs to be closed.

[Ifflejink]

Cards are put on the list for being broken, and they're taken off for being obolsolete. "Cards are put on the restricted list for a reason". Hmm. I haven't seen anyone abusing Maze of Ith since it's unrestriction. JACO, look at history before you post.

[MuzzonoAmi]

This thread should really be closed. It is either:
a) a joke thread (to test people), in the spirit of the Doomsday and the 'Revenge of 1997' threads
b) the worst Banned/Restricted discussion I have ever seen in my life.

With each post/reply, the amount of absurdity to continues to mount. Half of you weren't even playing when these cards were restricted in Type 1 in the first place, so can we please stop the nonsense now?!

Black Vise, Fact or Fiction, Voltaic Key, Library of Alexandria, Mox Diamond, Crop Rotation, Balance, and Mind Twist were put there for a reason. Never mind that this is a different era, that only applies to a few cards on there (i.e. Hurkyl's Recall, Recall, Fork). The cards on the list have been earmarked for a reason, because they're broken. Yes Steve, some are certainly more broken than others, and we all know that. We don't need the Rhodes Scholars of Type 1 to tell us that Voltaic Key isn't as broken as Yawgmoth's Will, because it's obvious.

It's also obvious that this thread is an embarrasment and needs to be closed.

I think that you saying people who didn't play when a card was restricted  shouldn't be able to clamor for it's unrestriction is preposterous. Just because they didn't play then doesn't mean that they don't understand what's happening now.

I speak from experience when I say that Dream Halls, Voltaic Key, and Mox Diamond were very powerful when I used them to play TurboZvi and Academy. I'm not standing here and saying unrestrict Crop Rotation and Dream Halls, either. Honestly, if anyone here can think of a way to break 4 Voltaic Keys now, then I stand corrected. Mox Diamond isn't agood for combo because of their low land count, but it does make budget aggro and control faster. LoA and Fact or Fiction, I've gone other at least 4 times on this very thread. Multiple Libraries weaken the already weak manabaes of control decks, and are still slow to work with. FoF might make Tog a little better, but it's not going to dominate the metagame by any streatch of the imagination.

[Vegeta2711]

Whatever, this should be closed. It got to 'wtf' point when people started seriously suggesting unrestricting Black Vise and Mind Twist, then it got even more retarded with comparisions to Balance.

I think that you saying people who didn't play when a card was restricted shouldn't be able to clamor for it's unrestriction is preposterous. Just because they didn't play then doesn't mean that they don't understand what's happening now.

I agree, but you have to keep in mind some of these people are just clearly talking out of their ass on the subject.

Final point. For everyone who thinks they are correct, run a tournament with whatever your B/R suggestions are. Look over the results and figure it out for yourself, some sort of grounding in reality here would be nice. Right now this is all theory as I doubt anyone has actually tried these changes in any real decks.

Also consider that you have to convince WOTC to unrestrict the stuff. I highly doubt you'll ever get LoA or Mind Twist off the list. Maybe 5-10% of the very weakest cards could be shaven off within a year or two.

[Dr. Sylvan]

If we could get Fork, Braingeyser, and Stroke of Genius unrestricted, I think that would be enough for a while. Mostly, this thread has served its purpose and started entertaining some rather odd theoretical ideas which have no chance of being accepted by Wizards at any time in the foreseeable future.

[Zherbus]

Now you know why I stay away from these threads.[/color]