Vintage impact of recent sets

[Buttons]

Looks like Robert has a groupie

I appreciate the deck, and have been playing it for some time with great success.  I run a different list than he does (although not as much since Chicago, as I took out the jens and upped the b-ring count to 4 before he did (as far as I know), as well as adding in a new tech card which has worked miracles for me in the deck, which I just informed him about today, actually.)

Mind's Desire should also, probably, have had a major impact on Vintage.  The actual impact was next to nill - it NEVER saw tournament play.  But 'Major Impact on Vintage' is not limited to tournament play.  I mean, when's the last time Smmenen has had a win in any major tournament (not to put you down Smmenen, we all appreciate your work greatly - it's just you're not going to play GrimLong again and take Combo to the top.  YOU COULD.  DO IT DAMN IT.)  but it is UNDENIABLE how much impact he has had on the vintage community - probably moreso than anyone else, save Zherbus and Jacob Orlove for RUNNING www.themanadrain.com.

In that respect, Mind's Desire should be the utmost of Major Impacts.  IT WAS BROKEN BEFORE IT WAS BROKEN.

And so I also disagree with him on his list, so it's not like I'm going to bend over for him. 

But I do appreciate his insight into UbaStax, and it'll make me a better player if I get on his good side enough to where he'll teach me how to play the deck better.  He's the authority on it, I mean, gimmie a break.  Come on, someone posts on HIS thread and says how UbaStax is a MINOR impact.  That's just rude.  I'd defend anyone who has actually made a major impact on vintage and someone goes and does that to them.

[VarienTanafres]

Cards that have had major impacts need to have spawned new archetypes, or made existing archetypes powerful/consistant enough to be viable in the metagame.

I.E. - Minds Desire. How many forms of tendril decks were made with this? Can't forget about Doomsday either. Doomsday had a minor impact on the Vintage realm for a temporary amount of time. tendril decks still ahve an impact on the Vintage realm, not as much as they use to have, but they still do. Now everyone sides for it.

IT WAS BROKEN BEFORE IT WAS BROKEN.

[lordmayhem]

I would say that uba mask is a minor impact, while uba stax is certainly a fine deck, it's just a variation on a preexisting deck.

I seriously disagree with the idea that Uba Mask simply had a minor impact, seeing as it presented a very different, very aggressive and very good gameplan for Stax, along with being a brutal prison element. Uba Mask does something that Stax did not do before, and that something proved to be VERY good   so I wouldn't say it was a minor impact really.

[MoxMonkey]

uba Mask is good and I'm not here to put anyone down but Other than Vroman who has taken HIS deck to top finishes has anyone else been able to piolet the deck like him.  Its a very difficult deck to play and its not like Slaver from a Year ago when Everyone could pick up the deck and just destroy people without playing it right.  Thirst has a had a Major Impact, Uba Mask has had  a Minor Impact.  1 Person winning 2 Tournaments with it doesn't give it the right to a Major impact.  And if it does then Doubling Season will be on this list since we all no JuggernautGo will be bringing it with him.   
Also on Minds Desire think what would happen if they unrestricted this.  It would fucking rule over all decks the card was banned before being Printed thats a Major in all ways and if you dont think so proxie up Storm with 4 Desires and see if any deck can beat it.
All in all uba Minor only 1 person runs it well cause he built the deck.  Mind's Desire MAJOR.  NO questions.

[forests failed you]

I also think that Mind's Eye is a card that could go down under minor impact.  It has been seeing play on and off in Slaver decks in control metagames.

Also, I'm not sure that Plats is a 'tried but failed' card.  It was a major factor in Windfall's Worlds winning Slaver list.  Not to mention it was also in that Masticore-Slaver deck that made top eight this year.  I would think of it as more of a minor impact card.  Not to mention Plats was THE CARD in the meandeck Oath V Slaver matchup about seven or eight months ago.

[Lunar]

I think the #1 contention with any of it I have is the failed list....some of the stuff in there never really failed, and still sees some uses...perhaps one additional category for meta only cards or some use cards? rather than having to group them into the "failed" category?

[vroman]

thanks for all the constructive criticism. clearly a list like this shouldnt be dependent on one person. I have gone back and edited the entries based on some of the arguments here.
*Minds desire clearly is seriously broken, but it IS restricted and as such the decks that play it cant rely on it. if minds desire didnt exist, these decks would still be nearly as effective, just based on Tendrils and yawg will. thus I dont think it has a major impact on todays metagame.
*Im not going to play false modesty. ubastax is a toptier deck, and w/o uba mask thered be no reason to play bazaar and then it would exactly like other stax decks. a card that allows an entirely different stax deck is just as major as forbidden orchard revitalizing oath combo.
*spoils of the vault is a good suggestion that I somehow skipped over when reviewing mirrodin.
*I really dont think platinum angel is or should be that heavily played. platangel is just a less efficient juggernaut as far as Im concerned.
*do combo players actualy fear pyropillar? if you play brainfreeze win, you can respond to pillar triggers and get lethal storm before damage resolves.
*exalted angel is just an efficient beater. 4cc could win w morphling or anything and still keep the same strategy.
*has vedalken shackles actually been played in winning decks?
*as for all the goblins, FCG is still a tier deck imo and warchief and piledriver are key parts of it
*witness and caller are obscure win conditions for dragon. kumano and laquatus are standard and imo superior
*I put genjus on the list purely bc of "the mountain wins again", though considering its not even a vital part of a fairly obscure deck, it probably doesnt belong. esp since I ignored "bombs" like march of the machines.
*ppl still play doomsday and it dominated a tournament in the not so distant past, so I still think its crucial component beacon desturction is worth mentioning.
*cerebral assassin is a decent deck and possessed portal is extremely scary.
*brain freeze/future sight. I really dont see this deck anymore or expect it to do well again. w chalice rampant and null rod returning, sensei's future looks grim. pun intended.
*what was sword fire/ice played in besides metalworker combo?

[Komatteru]

*Minds desire clearly is seriously broken, but it IS restricted and as such the decks that play it cant rely on it. if minds desire didnt exist, these decks would still be nearly as effective, just based on Tendrils and yawg will. thus I dont think it has a major impact on todays metagame.

Well, I think you need to look at JD's Desire in this light.  There never was a 4 Desire deck because the DCI didn't want to let that happen for even 3 months.  If there had been such a deck, it would have been completely ridiculous.  Compare it to Gush.  If you were making a list of important cards from Masques on, Gush would have to be a major impact, since the 4 Gush deck was outrageously powerful for its time.  Sure, it and Desire are restricted now, but if they were taken off the list, the respective decks would be wrecking balls within the current metagame.  However, the DCI isn't letting that happen.  That's a testament to just how powerful those cards are.  They can be played as 1-ofs these days, but their importance and roles in the decks they're played in is extremely significant.

[Lunar]

I still find the tried and failed section to be wrong though vroman...

maybe a "maybe" section on top of it...eternal witness is still a good choice for dragon, it never failed....kumano as well is subpar IMO to shivan hellkite...so where should Kumano really be? It is an easier to find version of hellkite I guess, but its not better and people SHOULD play hellkite over it, which SHOULD mean kumano goes to your tried and failed section...but really it SHOULD be in a Maybe category...

Suppresion Field as well should be in a Maybe category...tried and failed is hardly accurate...take your own innovation in utilizing Uba Mask...I remember right when the set came out some people tried it and it failed....it would have been in the dumps on your list, yet here months and months later its actually pretty good...whoda thunkit? Other than that though I dont want to open up more debate on Uba Mask being a Major impact...heh...

Is it possible to get a 4th category to better define some of these cards...Platinum angel should be a maybe, field should be a maybe, witness and kumano should both be maybes, so should caller of the claw as well I guess.  These are cards with little impact that are still viable options...

Oh and your comment on 4cc....Exalted Angel was basically the end of Aggro as we knew it when it started getting used in 4cc (germbus, eh) Exalted was better than morphling in several regards and really was a MAJOR impact at the time....sure, now its not so big a deal, but at the time exalted was a hudge deal...there is little in the list to take into account any sort of time basis. This is fine if the list is supposed to ONLY be based on the meta RIGHT now...but that should be clear in the opening...

[Methuselahn]

This is so funny, it WAS clear in the opening, but almost everyone in this thread is caught up in interpreting the list the way they want to.  In both of vroman's posts he clearly indicates "today's metagame."  I don't understand why people are bringing up such irrelevant things like, 'It was powerful a long time ago' and 'It's so powerful it got restricted way back when.'  What would have happened just doesn't apply.  I don't metagame with the thought of "what deck should I play if Desire was unrestricted?" because that is pointless.  Desire is a minor player. 

Mind's Desire does not define a deck.  Nor is it extremely significant.  If it was you would have seen it in far more combo decks.  If it was that significant, people would be building decks around it like they are with Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will.

Robert's list seems very accurate as far as what it is trying to categorize.

[Dozer]

The list looks good if you look at it from the perspective Vroman made clear. There are a couple of evaluations I do not disagree with even under that light, though:

Pithing Needle is undervalued at "minor impact". All Gifts lists play it, and all other decks have to be aware of it much more than other "minor impact" cards. It has an impact on how players build their decks and is always a consideration when building a sideboard. It does not have decks built around it, but on the other hand is one of the cards that enables Brassman Gifts and one of the cards everybody has to consider when building a deck. I think that qualifies as a major impact.

Three cards in the "tried and failed"-category do not belong there in my opinion. The first is Brain Freeze. The cards in that last category are cards I do not consider (much) when building a deck, or cards I don't immediately expect when I play against an unknown deck. Brainfreeze does not fit that category, in my opinion, because I do expect it as secondary win condition in Storm combo decks, some Gifts decks and Sensei, Sensei.

The existence and good placement of Sensei in the French Champs alone should warrant a "minor impact" for Brain Freeze and Future Sight. Future Sight was tried and did not fail, it just fell under the radar when everybody switched to Gifts. When a deck leads with Top, you have to consider Sensei as possible opponent. I don't know if you do, but I do, therefore the two defining cards (Top + FS) and the win condition should have at least "minor impact" (like Top already, correctly, has).
 
The last card I do not agree with is Arcbound Ravager. Ravager still has a minor impact in the way that the Dutchies have a viable Ravager deck and Ravager is always a starting point for rogue Workshop Aggro decks. You don't necessarily have to prepare for Ravager at a high-level event, but below that, you should expect it because it is a cheap, fast and strong deck that can take games from even the top decks.

Last but not least, you forgot Flame Fusillade, which I'd file under "minor impact" for now.

Dozer

[Silvios]

I have to agree with most of the list, save perhaps Pithing Needle, though not in the respect that it gets played a ton and defines decks, but that it has ENORMOUS potential if people did actually maindeck them in decks that can sacrifice the slots for it.  The other thing to think about before you form an opinion of Vroman's list or perhaps your own, is that Vintage, when compared to the other formats, is a very slowly defined meta.  SCG is what, every three months?  Throw in Waterbury, and a handful of other major vintage tournaments Stateside yearly, and we have maybe 20 major tournaments with which to gauge the usefulness of various combos, decks, and new ideas.  Though the format changes somewhat rapidly from tourney to tourney, it would probably be much more varied if there were more major events, like PTQs and Grand Prixes (stupid language).  The meta could evolve more and change the major/minor/failed impact if there were more situations to test stuff.

[verduran]

How about Life from the Loam? Which of the three categories listed do you think it will eventually make?

[amuraivel]

I would never file skullclamp under Tried and Failed.


Andreas Ganz fought off some fierce competition at a 80 person 5-proxy tournament in Zürich to take first with a skull clamp powered deck.  I got eaten alive with a kobold-clamp-tendrils deck on turn two.  Skullclamp is broken like most cards in Vintage, and there is a way to make it work--it may not be Tier 1 material, but failed is it not.

Results are here:

http://www.tolaria.ch/decklisten/zuerich231005.html


Don't count out the clampt

[doylehancock]

I will count out the clamp until it works in US' Type 1 scene

[Harlequin]

It was said before, But I really think that Sundering Titan deservers a "Major" lable.

It made decks restructures thier mana bases.  Now a duel land is by a large margin the most "disruptable" mana scource,  Alot of decks re stratigiesed to include a mix of duels, basics, and other random non-basics.  There was a 'pain land' revial because of 7/10 split.  besides 2 land belcher, I don't think any competative decks run ONLY duel lands... this is in no small part a result of Sundering titans duel land hunger. 

[Harlequin]

It seems like when the list was designed, The author had these definitions in mind:

Minor impact = This became a playable card in an already exsiting deck.  Or gave a previously non-competative deck just enough edge to become competative

Major impact = This card was so strong it made OTHER decks (that did not run said card) change in responce to the power of the new card (for example trinisphere).  Or an entirely new deck was developed from this card (say for example tendrils)

Tryed and failed = either a card that was considered good in pre-release, then turned out to only be marginally playable in T1. Or cards that got hyped up in pre-release that actually are terrible deck choices (great example: supression feild).

[amuraivel]

I will count out the clamp until it works in US' Type 1 scene

This is one of the major problems about talking about Vintage in general.
Whenever someone wins a tournament against conventional wisdom--the argument hinges on whether the metagame is a "true" vintage metagame. 

No one agrees on what the metagame is the standard. 

In reality the Vintage scene is fragmented--but it is not that fragmented.  People are playing similar decks in Karlsruhe, Waterbury, Zürich, and Copehagen. 

The Zürich win was in a field chocked full of "typical decks" found in the USA, TPS, Gifts, Oath, Stax, Goblins, UW Fish, etc.

Taking a US win as the standard is a bit chauvinistic considering there are many metagames above scrub level outside of the states.


Amuraivel

[doylehancock]

TPS isnt as typical here as it is over there.

[forests failed you]

I don't think it would be completely unfair to put Skullclamp in the minor impact catagory.