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wethepeople
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2006, 02:38:06 pm » |
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In MWS i have another URB Fish build minus the Drains, FOF, and Scrys. I like using Negators or Genjus because they tend to kick Drain decks in the nuts when being put on a 3 turn clock. I think Genju work the best with Drains, however a full set of Moxen can usually do it. I never tried Ninjas for some reason, but they dont seem like a bad idea if i ran more creatures. At one point I used Grim Lavamancer because i played a lot of Fish, and i may do it again because i have been seeing aggro more and more lately. I will put up one of my lists in a bit, they have been doing really well lately.
i played a few games on MWS and had a random mirror match, i am assuming it was someone who got a list from here, i found it very wierd at the time.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2006, 05:48:32 pm » |
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I'm asking this as a question, not suggesting a change. Why Bouncer over Extract?
In my mind, both are sorceries that do the same thing in non-Fish matchups, except that Extract is more potent against Storm-based combo and Bouncer costs 1UU, two cards, and a turn.
Another good question. One reason for the bouncer is I need another creature to support ninja. Bouncer easily comes down on turn 1 with help of a mox. He then can help clear the way for Ninja to connect. Against Gifts I think I'm indifferent with Bouncer and Extract. Tinker shouldn't even resolve do to my mix of proactive and reactive spells, but it does sometimes. Extract is just another proactive threat. Bouncer is reactive. I'd definitely rather have Bouncer than extract vs. CS, which is a tougher drain matchup. Bouncer is just a house vs. oath and in aggro mirrors. That's really why its in the deck. Now clearly Extract is much better vs. Long....where bouncer just pitches to Force or beats for 1, but I feel the bouncer pulls its weight in so many matchups its actually quite suprising. |
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Team GWS
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sa17dk
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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2006, 10:31:52 pm » |
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Have you tried to replace some of your creatures for Erayo? I know you already stated why Bouncers are good, but SS runs Erayo and seems to be doing fine.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2006, 10:50:31 pm » |
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Have you tried to replace some of your creatures for Erayo? I know you already stated why Bouncers are good, but SS runs Erayo and seems to be doing fine.
Yup, it sounds good in theory, but Erayo sucked. SS seems to totally ignore the aggro mirror, I don't think you can do that. |
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Team GWS
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AJFirst
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2006, 02:28:15 pm » |
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Reuse FTK much?
-AJ
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disrupting specter
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2006, 07:01:07 pm » |
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has anyone tested against dragon? I think Bouncer may be some good against it. This is where I would suggest Bouncer over Trickster Mage or Azorius Guildmage in any fish deck. Against random outdated/casual aggro decks, I love Bouncer. He and Ninja act like Capsize+Ophidian. They feed off eachother so well. This thread is hot. It is dispeling a lot of the bad wisdom I have seen people posting about fish (or at least it is reinforcing my testing  ) |
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wethepeople
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« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2006, 02:07:10 pm » |
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has anyone tested against dragon? I think Bouncer may be some good against it. This is where I would suggest Bouncer over Trickster Mage or Azorius Guildmage in any fish deck. Against random outdated/casual aggro decks, I love Bouncer. He and Ninja act like Capsize+Ophidian. They feed off eachother so well. This thread is hot. It is dispeling a lot of the bad wisdom I have seen people posting about fish (or at least it is reinforcing my testing ) The Dragon matchup greatly depends on which build you are playing, I am currently testing one that uses four Stifles, so this matchup is in fact favorable for me. I want to find room for like a single Trickbind, that card is insane. Bouncer is real good, even if he is slow. I like using him with Genju because it makes him almost impossible to stop, same idea with Negators. Let's see some lists up here, I want to compare ideas. I am actually thinking about bringing the deck to a tournament next weekend, I really enjoy playing it. |
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Duncan
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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2006, 04:16:17 pm » |
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I'm a fan of URb fish. I think the quick draws with much disruption work very well. Personally i'm interested in the sideboard, especially Kobefan's one.
I've been thinking about something like this:
3 Energy Flux
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Planar Void
2 Duress
2 Gilded Drake? (with bouncer it ownz, but without.. i don't know)
2 other slots
And another point: 11 of the 15 creatures die to darkblast, do you think that's an issue or can you overcome the problem with remand, ninja, wastes (any sb slots like needle or planar void?)? I just playd an MWS game and i played so many X/1 creatures that i won lots of tempo while he was reusing darkblast.. maybe it isn't a big threat at all..
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« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 04:47:34 pm by Duncan »
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"Good things may come to those who wait, but they are merely leftovers from great things that come to those who act.”
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disrupting specter
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« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2006, 06:05:26 pm » |
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The Dragon matchup greatly depends on which build you are playing, I am currently testing one that uses four Stifles, so this matchup is in fact favorable for me. I want to find room for like a single Trickbind, that card is insane.
I haven't completely dismissed Stifle but I really don't like it. I find keeping U open in the early game is either impossible or bad. Plus I never had a deck, Dragon or otherwise, go off in desperation, without either Duress or Force of Will. So my original question... Does anyone have any experience using Waterfront Bouncer against Dragon? |
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wethepeople
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« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2006, 06:45:35 pm » |
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So my original question...
Does anyone have any experience using Waterfront Bouncer against Dragon?
Yeah so I had my first Dragon matchup using the deck today on MWS, and the player seemed reasonable when navigating the deck. I got Bouncer online turn one, game one (without knowing what he was playing yet) and he proceeded to go off the turn after it was dropped, so I never got the chance to use Bouncer because of summoning sickness. Does Dragon ever use Duress? Because game two I brought in Trickbind and stopped his perms from returning to play and he was shocked I SBed for some reason. We never got to game three due to the fact I had to get going, but I was able to learn that Bouncer, at sorcery-speed, is a little too slow to stop Dragon. |
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2006, 11:20:54 pm » |
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Yeah so I had my first Dragon matchup using the deck today on MWS, and the player seemed reasonable when navigating the deck. I got Bouncer online turn one, game one (without knowing what he was playing yet) and he proceeded to go off the turn after it was dropped, so I never got the chance to use Bouncer because of summoning sickness..............but I was able to learn that Bouncer, at sorcery-speed, is a little too slow to stop Dragon.
That's terrible logic. Dragon went off turn 1 (or turn 2), doesn't happen all that often. That's like saying Chalice isn't good vs. Grim Long because they turn 1 killed you once. I think that you've can't make the judgement about bouncer from a single game. |
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Team GWS
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zeus-online
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« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2006, 02:28:53 am » |
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Dragon does actually goldfish turn 1-3 with 2 and 3 being quite common.
BUT, game 1 i have zero maindeck answers against an onboard threat, i'd have to cunning wish or double animate to get out of the situation, which would take me a bit of setup to do.
/Zeus
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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wethepeople
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« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2006, 04:12:08 pm » |
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Yeah so I had my first Dragon matchup using the deck today on MWS, and the player seemed reasonable when navigating the deck. I got Bouncer online turn one, game one (without knowing what he was playing yet) and he proceeded to go off the turn after it was dropped, so I never got the chance to use Bouncer because of summoning sickness..............but I was able to learn that Bouncer, at sorcery-speed, is a little too slow to stop Dragon.
That's terrible logic. Dragon went off turn 1 (or turn 2), doesn't happen all that often. That's like saying Chalice isn't good vs. Grim Long because they turn 1 killed you once. I think that you've can't make the judgement about bouncer from a single game. I understand that it is not right to make the judgement from just one game, but Dragon matchups dont come along that often anymore, so I really only had one game to be able to test it. From the game I was able to get it online, it was too slow to do anything effective. I am sure that there are games that he will make a huge difference, but I probably wont get enough Dragon matchups with the deck to figure out how good it is, I was just responding to his question from my experience of using the card. I am sure you could answer this because you have played the deck much more than I have, due to the fact that you have brought it to tournaments in actual life, unlike me. Do you have any input on his question? Yes, it's not often that Turn 1 kills arent every game for Dragon. From all the testing I have done with this deck, I rarely go for a turn 1 Bouncer (game 1) because I dont know what my opponent is playing quite yet. I usually go for a turn 1 Shaman, or if possible, a Dark Confidant. If I were to draw one of the two in that specific game, I am sure I would have casted it over Bouncer. So what I am saying is that turn 1 Bouncers arent all that common for the deck game 1, as turn 1 kills arent all that common for Dragon. So if I were to drop a Bouncer turn 2, which is more far more often then on turn 1, he would then be able to go off turn 2, while the Bouncer is still affected by Summoning Sickness. |
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coyoteuglly
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« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2006, 09:53:25 pm » |
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I agree with Becker that if you want to play a UR fish list, just play URBana Fish. I've played the deck to a 3/4th, 9th, 10th, 10th in Milwaukee/Chicago area... and ask around... I suck.
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Kirika
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« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2006, 02:18:12 am » |
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I feel maindecking blasts really depends on your metagame. In a proxy all power metagame where alot of people play blue maindecking blasts is pretty good. In a non proxy metagame probably better to add black and play duress.
I personally like the URb fish better cause of Dark Confidant for more draw power since most of your spells are cheap. Black also gives you the duress option which is some good against control rather then just having reactive blasts and it makes the combo match up better. Haven't actually tested fish in vintage but I really like the Confidant in my legacy fish deck which is UWb. Red probably is alot better in vintage cause of monkey and the prevalence of blue in proxy vintage metagames.
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wethepeople
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« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2007, 06:05:34 pm » |
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I have currently been messing around with this build again because Vintage has become real heavy on Combo and Drain decks, or atleast in my area, and I have found that this is stronger in these particular matchups. However, I feel like I am at the disadvantage when versus the basic UW Fish because they generally have more creature removal maindeck, sometimes even four maindecked Swords to Plowshares.
At an attempt to solve this problem, I have begun testing a few Grim Lavamancers in relace the Gorrilla Shamans, and a couple Null Rods MD. Recently I was told why Null Rods are better than Monkeys, which made a lot of sense actually, and I want to try that out in this deck as well as the UWr Fish deck I had originally brought up (see UW Fish: Teh Primer).
The reason I added Lavamen is mainly so I could be garunteed the advantage on Fish with the ability to shock every critter that hits the field. As well as drain your GY so opposing Jotun Grunts can no longer survive. I also wanted to keep the same number of 1-drops so Ninjas were still playable.
After I have gotten a bit more testing versus several common metagame decks, I will post my final decision as to what I personally feel is stronger. b
By the way, I realized that Becker did well with URBana recently at the previous SCG in Roanoke, do you have any comments on that or modifications you would like to make on the deck after that event? Congrats on your fairly high finish at the tournament, I entirely forgot to bring this up earlier.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2007, 07:57:48 pm » |
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By the way, I realized that Becker did well with URBana recently at the previous SCG in Roanoke, do you have any comments on that or modifications you would like to make on the deck after that event? Congrats on your fairly high finish at the tournament, I entirely forgot to bring this up earlier.
Well, I think mana denial strategies are at an all time low right now, so I'd probably cut 1 mana source, either the basic island or an off color mox. With this new space I'd probably run either a 4th chalice, another REB, or maybe an annul (to free up a sideboard slot). This freed up sideboard space would help me fit in a 3rd or 4th Planar Void to I can beat down on ichorid. |
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wethepeople
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« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2007, 01:19:24 pm » |
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With the TMD Open less than a week away, I think I may make an appearance playing one of my various URBana builds, all of which similar to Becker's.
I really like the matchups it's got versus Drain decks, which are poplular again, as well as Pitch Long and other Combo of the like. I have been testing versus Stax a lot lately, even though I doubt that it will be very common at the upcoming tournament, but even that matchup is great. With the draw engine of Ninjas and Dark Confidant you are able to avoid virtually all locks that they've got to offer.
Versus other Fish builds like UW, I have had a tiny bit of trouble because of the lack of Swords to Plowshares, but with Waterfront Bouncers, Grim Lavamancers, and Fire/Ice all maindecked, it has improved greatly. Not to mention my sideboard which has a combination of REBs and Pyroblasts, along with 1-2 other removal spells like Lightning Dart on some occasions.
Since thes matchups are most common, and I have experienced much testing with this deck, I think it is going to be my weapon of choice this upcoming weekend.
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