[Free Article] N.Y.S.E. 5C Stax

[Prospero]

I've never tapped a workshop for mana. Most likely, i never will.

I have never cast mana drain before. Wonder what that's like.

However, I've gone 'infinite' by placing/winning tournaments with various forms of combo and have some decent finishes with fish as well.

While I'd like to think I can pick up any deck and win with it, usually without practice, logic tells me this is a classic case of everestimating my abilities. If I were to run shops, you best believe I'd be on the phone with Twaun pretty quickly. I'd be asking Yang some questions too.
Same thing for drains, but with LHC.

Specialists give you this option: they exist as masters of competing dojos, secure with truth through their testing and expirience. As such I highly respect their opinions.

The notion that we should move away from this is difficult. I suspect many drain players have always been drain players. My first vintage article I read was about Grim Long, I proxied it up, and got hooked. I became addicted to the turn one/two kill. Since then, I've had to sell my collection. Despite getting rid of seas, a ruby, fetches, wastelands, confidants, beta sol ring, beta DT, etc I kept one card.
Yawgmoths Will.
I knew I'd need it again someday.

Another issue closely related to the specialist issue is the proxy issue. Workshops cost some scratch. Not everyone can just afford to play shops while having other decks built. One of the main reasons I fell back on fish for the ICBM open was that I knew the deck, the other was that I could borrow all the cards no one else wanted to play.

Prospero, I appreciate your advice and primer. If I were to play shops, they would be of great assistance.

Thanks Pierce.  That primer was longer than anything I had written while working on my bachelors and is, so far, longer than anything I've written working on my masters.

[pierce]

you must be in the sciences then! lol. I turned in 30 pgs of research today, and I'm not sure I could stretch a primer that long.

[Will]

I just finished reading the thread/ article and it really changed my perspective on workshops as an archetype.  The discussion in this thread really was on par with just about any article about magic that I have ever read as far as answering questions I would have liked to ask, and the primer itself was very helpful.

[Prospero]

you must be in the sciences then! lol. I turned in 30 pgs of research today, and I'm not sure I could stretch a primer that long.

Actually I'm in the humanities - American history, Revolutionary era.  Gordon Wood FTW.

I just finished reading the thread/ article and it really changed my perspective on workshops as an archetype.  The discussion in this thread really was on par with just about any article about magic that I have ever read as far as answering questions I would have liked to ask, and the primer itself was very helpful.

Thank you.  

There are always more points to address, but I feel like the fundamental point of the article was to realize that 5CStax is an elegant hate deck.  If you know what the environment is going to be like I think that you can construct a build that can beat it.  It's not like most blue decks - you're not just going to run the same cards every time with a few variations here or there.  You can take the deck in radical directions.  I like that.  

There was a build running around a while ago that had maindeck Leyline of the Void with the Helm combo.  In a heavy Dredge metagame that could be the perfect deck (as you're basically pre-boarded.)  

Nothing is holy, you can change anything.

[Sean Ryan]

you must be in the sciences then! lol. I turned in 30 pgs of research today, and I'm not sure I could stretch a primer that long.

Actually I'm in the humanities - American history, Revolutionary era.  Gordon Wood FTW.

I just finished reading the thread/ article and it really changed my perspective on workshops as an archetype.  The discussion in this thread really was on par with just about any article about magic that I have ever read as far as answering questions I would have liked to ask, and the primer itself was very helpful.

Thank you.  

There are always more points to address, but I feel like the fundamental point of the article was to realize that 5CStax is an elegant hate deck.  If you know what the environment is going to be like I think that you can construct a build that can beat it.  It's not like most blue decks - you're not just going to run the same cards every time with a few variations here or there.  You can take the deck in radical directions.  I like that.  

There was a build running around a while ago that had maindeck Leyline of the Void with the Helm combo.  In a heavy Dredge metagame that could be the perfect deck (as you're basically pre-boarded.)  

Nothing is holy, you can change anything.

I think you head the nail on the head.  That is the strongest reason to run 5cStax outside of fun times. 

I still hold the position that the back red version which Vroman has stream lined is superior.  If you havn't tried it out yet do so.  It's super consistent and such a beating.  I'm running three tutors and a darkblast in addtion to the Welders/Bobs/bazaars. 

[Will]

I remember playing against it with Raf. Forino behind the helm in the finals of a side event with flash and getting stomped.  At that point I thought that the deck really wasn't played much at all and therefore didn't test against it giving him a huge edge.  Wasn't the version with MD Leyline and Helm Mykie Noble (Psyburat)'s list that he won the one bluebell with?  Stax is a good deck because it always has a little bit of mystery because it could realistically play or not play any card in the game that would answer/ ruin your day. 

[Prospero]

I remember playing against it with Raf. Forino behind the helm in the finals of a side event with flash and getting stomped.  At that point I thought that the deck really wasn't played much at all and therefore didn't test against it giving him a huge edge.  Wasn't the version with MD Leyline and Helm Mykie Noble (Psyburat)'s list that he won the one bluebell with?  Stax is a good deck because it always has a little bit of mystery because it could realistically play or not play any card in the game that would answer/ ruin your day. 

I don't know who was the first to run it, if it was Mykie I don't want to take credit from him.  I know that Roland ran it for a couple of Blue Bell's and liked it.

There are quite a few options that are open to Stax players and I like that a lot...

you must be in the sciences then! lol. I turned in 30 pgs of research today, and I'm not sure I could stretch a primer that long.

Actually I'm in the humanities - American history, Revolutionary era.  Gordon Wood FTW.

I just finished reading the thread/ article and it really changed my perspective on workshops as an archetype.  The discussion in this thread really was on par with just about any article about magic that I have ever read as far as answering questions I would have liked to ask, and the primer itself was very helpful.

Thank you. 

There are always more points to address, but I feel like the fundamental point of the article was to realize that 5CStax is an elegant hate deck.  If you know what the environment is going to be like I think that you can construct a build that can beat it.  It's not like most blue decks - you're not just going to run the same cards every time with a few variations here or there.  You can take the deck in radical directions.  I like that. 

There was a build running around a while ago that had maindeck Leyline of the Void with the Helm combo.  In a heavy Dredge metagame that could be the perfect deck (as you're basically pre-boarded.) 

Nothing is holy, you can change anything.

I think you head the nail on the head.  That is the strongest reason to run 5cStax outside of fun times. 

I still hold the position that the back red version which Vroman has stream lined is superior.  If you havn't tried it out yet do so.  It's super consistent and such a beating.  I'm running three tutors and a darkblast in addtion to the Welders/Bobs/bazaars. 

Vroman's B/R version is the best variant of it that I've seen.  Vroman's an absolute monster, he's an awesome player.  He and Roland are the godfathers or Shops, with Roland being the 5C master and Vroman being the Uba Mask/non 5C master. 

There are very few people that I would listen to in terms of the quality of my build, etc. -   Those two are right up towards the top of the list, even though I've actually never spoken to Vroman before. 

[Sporkcore]

I don't know who was the first to run it, if it was Mykie I don't want to take credit from him.  I know that Roland ran it for a couple of Blue Bell's and liked it.

I know Jeremy Seroogy(TheSpookyKid) ran MD Leylines at a Waterbury when Flash was big.

[Will]

I guess since it seemed helpful before that I'll pose a few questions to everyone that I have been wondering rather than PM one person individually. 
1) What slots in the deck do you think are the least set in stone, like what would you take out if you wanted to test new things?
2) Which cards deserve testing right now in the deck?
3) What version of Stax do you think makes the most sense right now? (BR, RG, 5c, Staxless, etc.)
4) Do you have any specific guidelines for a generally keepable hand against an unknown deck?

[vroman]

4) the critical dif is whether you are on play/draw. the power of chalice on the play is so significant, and requires no other cards to be cast, you should not be afraid to agressively mul. if you cant cast anything turn 1: mul. dont be afraid to go to 4-5.
on the play I will keep literally any 7 cards that include chalice and bazaar.
on the draw is a lot different, bc you are playing catchup and chalice loses so much of its punch. on the draw, you are playing for atrition, and have to assume its a race, where they will be running their strategy to some extent. on the play the goal is to prevent them from doing anything relevent at all.
so this means you can keep hands that need a little bit of set up, like say workshop+other lands+smoke, but no moxen. also dont underestimate the power of chalice@0 even on the draw. even if they lead w like land+mox+mox, if you can go like turn 1 tangle+chalice@0 on the draw, this makes your tangle relevent longer, and stops tutor for lotus brokeness. if they dont have lotus yet, chalice@0 is still good. I try to avoid mulling on the draw, and depend on sideboard cards a lot.

[Will]

Vroman, I'm going to go out on a limb and say because I've seen a few of your decklists on Deckcheck and the like and it seems like you  usually play 1-2 color Stax, but why?  I see people mainly from the Northeast running 5cStax, and that on Day1 of ICBM open that a bunch of the Stax players ran 5c but then for Day2 a majority (8/9?) went with BR or RG, but what would make that change necessary?  From what I've been told it seems that 5cStax if tuned right can handle anything and just runs tutors rather than more of other goodstuff, but can the same be said for BR or RG?  Also thank you for the advice on what to keep Vroman I really appreciate it.

[MirariKnight]

I've played against Nick and co.'s 5C stax list and Vromans B/R list, and the difference is that 1-2 colors is MUCH more consistent at establishing the lock, but doesn't come back quite as well if it can't get something going by turn 2-3 at the absolute latest.
Also 2 color generally has Null Rod while 5C has Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst instead because it needs its moxes much more.

[vroman]

likes: null rod, bazaar
dislikes: gemstone mine

[Will]

Hmm, seems like I'll have to try out both variants, but I have to say on paper at least I like 5c Stax more because of the possibility to run anything.  Also do you really not run Balance in the deck Prospero because it seems nuts. 

[Sporkcore]

Nick does in fact not run a MD Balance. He's had arguments and discussions about it being in the main and even mentions in the article about why it's not in the main. People can feel that his choice is wrong, but it's his choice and Nick's done quite well with it in the side board.

[Will]

I understand that he does not, but he said that there really was no optimum 5cstax list for any metagame just one that is right for a certain metagame.  The way that I see Balance is as a 2 mana Wrath vs. fast aggro and a safety net in general.  It seems that more and more fish decks as well as aggro decks like shop aggro or RG beats are appearing to combat Tezz.  Playing 1 Balance allows you to find a permanent solution that takes time rather than relying on powder keg and all their threats cost the same, or Tangle Wire to stall into Smokestack.  While Wire can be great to stall people out, some decks run either more threats or threats and disruption to get around the problem so that Tangle Wire doesn't even fog them, it just acts as a Maze of Ith.  Although tutoring for balance is a gamble against fish decks, the risk is minimized by the fact that your tutors don't reveal cards.  Also, if tutored for a turn or so before necessary can be a super blowout since most decks try to get damage out quick before Stax locks them out of the game, making lategame creatures semi irrelevant.  This is compounded on the fact that one true wrath usually takes the gas out of the aggro decks since they are focused on running utility creatures rather than real card drawing because the added threat is more useful than the safety of avoiding the creature kill that is so sparse in the format. 

[MirariKnight]

While all of that is relevant, no one (literally) plays Fish on Long Island.

[voltron00x]

While all of that is relevant, no one (literally) plays Fish on Long Island.

Check the metagame report for the NYSE II that Nick posted today.   3 players ran 5C Stax and ALL THREE made the top 8.  Only 1 ran Crop Rotation, and that was as a one-of; only 2 ran Balance, and both copies were in the SB.  I'm not saying that makes it "right", but even with Tezz on the decline (only 1 in the top 8) the deck is still performing with the basic shell that Nick's been playing all year.

[MirariKnight]

I was just commenting on the (assumed) reason for siding Balance in NYSE Stax, nothing more.

[Will]

Gotcha, so Balance isn't needed main in the Northeast at least, but how about Chalice which seems to be split decision.  From what I've seen and limited testing it's great on the play, and somewhat lackluster afterwards.  Played at 1 it shuts down your Welders, 3 hits Tangle Wires, and 4 is unrealistic so basically it is for moxen or Null Rod/ Time Vault pretty much. 

[Prospero]

likes: null rod, bazaar
dislikes: gemstone mine

I liked your build quite a bit.  I know that Jerry Yang is a quality player, but I felt that he had some extraneous stuff that was semi counterintuitive in his list.  Your list seemed, to me at least, to have removed that.  It looks like a blast to play.  If I put my Gemstone Mines and City of Brass's away, that's probably what I'd look to pick up.  

I won't deny that Null Rod is awesome in this metagame.  

Hmm, seems like I'll have to try out both variants, but I have to say on paper at least I like 5c Stax more because of the possibility to run anything.  Also do you really not run Balance in the deck Prospero because it seems nuts.  

I've said it a few times now, so please forgive me if I just recap, but I think that it's strictly a metagame call.  I've been beating Fish and Beats decks without it.  There are very few times where I desperately wish for it, and when I desperately do need it, I board it in.  In the metagame in which I play it's not as busted as it would be in most other metagames.  Additionally, I don't think that my deck is optimally positioned to take advantage of Balance.  There had been times in the past where I'd draw Balance and just wish that it cycled.

While all of that is relevant, no one (literally) plays Fish on Long Island.

Check the metagame report for the NYSE II that Nick posted today.   3 players ran 5C Stax and ALL THREE made the top 8.  Only 1 ran Crop Rotation, and that was as a one-of; only 2 ran Balance, and both copies were in the SB.  I'm not saying that makes it "right", but even with Tezz on the decline (only 1 in the top 8) the deck is still performing with the basic shell that Nick's been playing all year.

I think that this may be the strongest support that my original argument could possibly get.  Balance is absolutely awesome in a lot of situations and in many others it's just not good enough.  Look at the metagame that we saw on Saturday - you'll notice that it was exceptionally diverse.  Those 5CStax players weren't just running through infinite rounds of Tezzeret - they came through against every pillar of Vintage.  They all made top 8.  I think the argument that it's just luck, or just one player playing better than his opponents begins to lose credibility at this point.  

Also, I think it should be mentioned that while Long Island is Stax country, Stax doesn't have such an oppressive presence in the metagame that it's just top 8'ing because there were so many pilots.  We have some of the best Stax pilots in the country playing here.  Tezzeret was the major player in the field but I think that 5CStax was the biggest winner on Saturday.