[Free Article] N.Y.S.E. 5C Stax

[voltron00x]

I'm back to writing about Vintage this week - or more accurately, my guest author is discussing Vintage this week, specifically the N.Y.S.E. version of 5C Stax as it has continued to evolve and develop over the past 12 months.  This is an excellent counter-point article to Stephen Menendian's exploration of this archetype over the past few weeks.  With Stax variants continuing to perform in the build-up to Vintage Champs 2009, this is an article you don't want to miss.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17845_The_Long_Winding_Road_NYSE_5C_Stax_Preface.html

Enjoy - and please, let's try to keep the discussions on-topic and as civil as possible.

[Juggernaut GO]

sweet, traviscon plug

[nono77]

I'm not agree with the actual 5C stax and metagame, I think it's slow and i prepared an article too

http://sirmagicdesantsa.blogspot.com/

[Twaun007]

That was a very good article.

Shop players, we are a community unto ourselves. We are not prevalent, but we are present. Work with each other, test, discuss theory, listen, learn.

And win.

THIS!

EDIT: I don't understand how you guys on the east coast get away with running Thorn of Amethyst. I tried it once at a tourney. Round one I lead with Badlands, Mox, Thorn. My opponent went Mountain, Goblin Lackey, and just smiled at me.

[XdeckX]

Excellent and insightfull article. It gave me some good info on why some cards were excluded (perhaps it was even more informative than my article;)) And it was really fun to read as well.
And yes Thorn of Amethyst is metagame dependant. Luckily in Holland we also get away with it most of the time.

[voltron00x]

That was a very good article.

Shop players, we are a community unto ourselves. We are not prevalent, but we are present. Work with each other, test, discuss theory, listen, learn.

And win.

THIS!

EDIT: I don't understand how you guys on the east coast get away with running Thorn of Amethyst. I tried it once at a tourney. Round one I lead with Badlands, Mox, Thorn. My opponent went Mountain, Goblin Lackey, and just smiled at me.

Glad you enjoyed it.  Nick would be able to answer better than me, but I can say that my experience in the NE, especially of late, has had only limited Aggro or Fish.  Once creature-based strategies dip below a certain threshold, the upside of Thorn outweighs the potential weakness against those archetypes.  If Fish continues to be resurgent outside of the ICBM event, it might necessitate a change to their list.  I guess we'll see what they choose for Champs.

[ConF1ictZ]

great article, any chance of an article about sideboarding coming out soon? 

[Prospero]

That was a very good article.

Shop players, we are a community unto ourselves. We are not prevalent, but we are present. Work with each other, test, discuss theory, listen, learn.

And win.

THIS!

EDIT: I don't understand how you guys on the east coast get away with running Thorn of Amethyst. I tried it once at a tourney. Round one I lead with Badlands, Mox, Thorn. My opponent went Mountain, Goblin Lackey, and just smiled at me.

I would have been pissed at Thorn at that point as well.

There really hasn't been much aggro in the field here for a while.  Things have changed a little bit, and I don't know if I'm going to be able to get away with Thorns much longer, as Pierce's BUG Fish deck at the ICBM Open may change things.  I won't know until I head down to Blue Bell PA on 9/5 though.

[LessThanRight]

First off, props to N.Y.S.E for starting something.  It's very cool to have so much discussion regarding Stax.

I've got a few general questions for everybody.  I know so much is dependant on game state and the like, but I'm looking more for people's thought process and how they would approach different aspects of playing stax.  Here goes.

1a) Attacking with Welder - do you generally attack with welder when there's nothing better to do?  I seem to have the FEAR with regard to this.  Welder is such an important component that I feel the 1 damage is not worth the risk of some trick I may have missed.

1b) Attacking with welder into an opposing welder or confidant, etc.  Is it worth the trade?

2) Smokestack - I've always tended to think of Smoky as a finisher, or at best a turn 3 or 4 lock piece.  Is it really that good turn one?  Ray certainly has a good argument regarding Smoky.  If your dropping it turn one, you've given your opponent a free turn.  Aren't there better things to do turn one?

3) What constitues a lock piece - Seems obvious, but maybe not.  Is crucible a lock piece?  Without waste/strip, it's more utility, or engine if your running bazaars.  I see people stating that 18-19 locks are the right number, but what are we counting.  I would assume at least the following:

Sphere's
Tangle Wire
Chalice
Smokestack
Null Rod

But how about these

Crucible
Mox Monkey
Uba Mask
Powder Keg

4) Sideboards - It has been mentioned that one of the benefits of 5C is the ability to side in devastating enchantments that also nulify the opponents sided artifact bounce.  This seems like a good tactic, but can also make welder less impactful.  How do people approach this when building a sideboard? 

Again, thanks to all the shop players out there.  It's an exciting time to be playing shops.

- LTR

[Prospero]

First off, props to N.Y.S.E for starting something.  It's very cool to have so much discussion regarding Stax.

I've got a few general questions for everybody.  I know so much is dependant on game state and the like, but I'm looking more for people's thought process and how they would approach different aspects of playing stax.  Here goes.

1a) Attacking with Welder - do you generally attack with welder when there's nothing better to do?  I seem to have the FEAR with regard to this.  Welder is such an important component that I feel the 1 damage is not worth the risk of some trick I may have missed.

1b) Attacking with welder into an opposing welder or confidant, etc.  Is it worth the trade?

2) Smokestack - I've always tended to think of Smoky as a finisher, or at best a turn 3 or 4 lock piece.  Is it really that good turn one?  Ray certainly has a good argument regarding Smoky.  If your dropping it turn one, you've given your opponent a free turn.  Aren't there better things to do turn one?

3) What constitues a lock piece - Seems obvious, but maybe not.  Is crucible a lock piece?  Without waste/strip, it's more utility, or engine if your running bazaars.  I see people stating that 18-19 locks are the right number, but what are we counting.  I would assume at least the following:

Sphere's
Tangle Wire
Chalice
Smokestack
Null Rod

But how about these

Crucible
Mox Monkey
Uba Mask
Powder Keg

4) Sideboards - It has been mentioned that one of the benefits of 5C is the ability to side in devastating enchantments that also nulify the opponents sided artifact bounce.  This seems like a good tactic, but can also make welder less impactful.  How do people approach this when building a sideboard? 

Again, thanks to all the shop players out there.  It's an exciting time to be playing shops.

- LTR

1A - Welder is an important component of the deck, but there is no given card that you MUST draw in order to win the game.  The damage does matter, and when there is nothing better to do, no welding to be done, then you should be attacking with your Welder.

1B - This may sound like a cop-out, but you need to analyze the game state.  There are times when it's absolutely correct to trade Welders, or to trade a Welder for  Dark Confidant.  You have to know the potential of your Welder in that game versus the potential of theirs.  You need to know the potential of their Confidant as well; is their Confidant going to enable them to break out of whatever lock you have established, or is he only going to last a turn or two before he's eaten by a Stack, Trike, etc?

2 - Smokestack isn't the ideal first turn lock piece, but there are times when it's the right play.  Usually you do want to drop a Sphere or something else first.  I have a great deal of respect for Ray, and not just for Staxless Stax, but also for running Waterbury's, still I feel that Smokestack is too important.  I don't think I could bring myself to play Staxless Stax.  To top that off, Smokestack is as close to a must draw as I think the deck has.  I must be able to handle their permanents, and while Smokestack is slow, it does accomplish this, every time.

3 - Crucible is generally a lock piece, and not just because of its interaction with Wasteland and Strip Mine.  Crucible + Smokestack = you never lose your Stack.  What is, and what is not, a lock piece comes back down to the match-up again.  While Stack and Wire are awesome against most decks, they're pretty awful against Ichorid.  Sphere's are great against Tezzeret and Dredge, but they're pretty bad against Aggro decks.  Crucible's are pretty bad against TPS/Ad Nauseum combo because they run so few lands.

Your answer is to run a bunch of pieces that are all lock components in various matches, and board out whatever is poorest against them before game two.

4.  I mentioned before that there is no one card that you must draw, or tutor for, in order to win the game.  While Welder is important, you don't need him so much that you can't win the game without him.  Your focus shouldn't be on what you can abuse best with Welder, but what devastates the opponent best.  Yes, Tormod's Crypt is pretty awesome against Dredge, but I wouldn't dream of cutting my Leylines for them.  Run what's best and think of everything else later.

[Mantis]

Regarding Smokestack in Workshop decks:
Shop decks are generally prison decks, but there are two directions to go by.
You can aim for the hardlock strategy which 5C Stax and Uba Stax strive to do.
You can aim for the softlock strategy which Shop Aggro and MUD hope to do.

Shop Aggro and MUD play a bunch of Spheres and Wires and then hope to finish the game using fast beatdown creature such as Triskelion, Juggernaut and Karn before the opponent has managed to built up his resources and can dig a way out of the lock.

Stax decks have a different approach, instead of using their deckslots on creatures they play even more lock pieces and ways to find their lockpieces. The problem here is that your opponent is building up his resources under your Spheres and Wires and you are not very good at finishing the game quickly. So you can do two things: hope to draw more lockpieces every turn or halt your opponents progress in building up their board by using Smokestack. In my opinion hoping to draw lockpieces every turn is a bit unrealistic, thus Smokestack seems required. I know that Crucible + Strip Mine goes a long way too, but redundancy is key and you need more ways to control the game.

[LessThanRight]

@Prospero

Thanks for the answers.  I've moved to a 4xSmokestack model and after a few games, I'm digging it. 

Question on Sideboarding - Does Leyline of the Void have a use in the mirror match?  When looking at sideboard space, I find myself dedicating most slots to other matchups, leaving me with 3-4 for the mirror match.  Things like Rack and Ruin, Viashino Heretic and the like.  I'm not sure this is enough.  Since I'm already packing Leylines, I started bringing these in as well.  The stax mirror seems to revolve around two cards, Goblin Welder and Crucible, both handled with Leyline.

Thanks again. 

-LTR

[lawnboy]

2 - Smokestack isn't the ideal first turn lock piece, but there are times when it's the right play.  Usually you do want to drop a Sphere or something else first.  I have a great deal of respect for Ray, and not just for Staxless Stax, but also for running Waterbury's, still I feel that Smokestack is too important.  I don't think I could bring myself to play Staxless Stax.  To top that off, Smokestack is as close to a must draw as I think the deck has.  I must be able to handle their permanents, and while Smokestack is slow, it does accomplish this, every time.

Disclaimer: I've never played 5c Stax but I've recently picked up the red-only and black/red variants

In my brief time playing the deck, I've found this actually to be a pretty solid play. If your opponent goes land -> go or land->draw spell, you've taken a big step to locking them out of the game by ramping turn 2 and then dropping the rest of your hand as fast as possible. Worst case scenario is they drop a ton of stuff and out-permanent you, in which case you a) have enough quick permanents (or a tangle wire) in your hand to race them, or b) don't ramp. If you played a 4-drop on turn 1 you usually have the mana available to cast nearly any other permanent in your deck. Choosing b) and not ramping would probably be a blowout, but it's unlikely that one would keep a hand without turn 2 plays in the first place.

I tend to think of Smokestack as a finisher as well, but if you can play it without the possibility of it getting Mana Drained and you have some follow-up plays for turn 2 and 3, I think it's such a potential game-changer that you've got to run it out there.

[LordHomerCat]

As a drain player, turn 1 Stack is really frightening unless my hand is all restricted mana.  Like, if I don't have a mox and they play Turn 1 Stack, I am in a lot of trouble.  Even with a mox, I still have to deal with it before I win because Tinker and Infinite Turns don't race a Stack very well.

[Prospero]

@Prospero

Thanks for the answers.  I've moved to a 4xSmokestack model and after a few games, I'm digging it.  

Question on Sideboarding - Does Leyline of the Void have a use in the mirror match?  When looking at sideboard space, I find myself dedicating most slots to other matchups, leaving me with 3-4 for the mirror match.  Things like Rack and Ruin, Viashino Heretic and the like.  I'm not sure this is enough.  Since I'm already packing Leylines, I started bringing these in as well.  The stax mirror seems to revolve around two cards, Goblin Welder and Crucible, both handled with Leyline.

Thanks again.  

-LTR

You're right to say that it hinges on Welders and Crucibles.  It does.  But Leylines aren't enough, and God forbid you keep an opener that doesn't have them, then draw them later.  To call them dead draws would be an understatement.  Leylines are there for Dredge, an opponent you should never, ever, ever disrespect.  Ever.  Seriously.

I'm not playing the list I've played anymore.  I haven't played in an event since June.  My list has shifted with the metagame, after much testing.  I think that my maindeck is strong against the mirror, but even still, when I was running the old list bringing in 3-4 cards was more than acceptable.  You board out your Sphere effects (Thorns or Spheres) and you leave Trinisphere in.  And then you have to outplay your opponent.

You have to know what the metagame revolves around.  If 5CStax was the biggest deck in the metagame then I could understand dedicating more room for hate in the main/board.  It's not.  It has been Tezz and with Champs through I can only imagine that trend continuing.  Know your enemy and prepare to beat him.  Focus.  Don't get sidetracked with the peripherals.

2 - Smokestack isn't the ideal first turn lock piece, but there are times when it's the right play.  Usually you do want to drop a Sphere or something else first.  I have a great deal of respect for Ray, and not just for Staxless Stax, but also for running Waterbury's, still I feel that Smokestack is too important.  I don't think I could bring myself to play Staxless Stax.  To top that off, Smokestack is as close to a must draw as I think the deck has.  I must be able to handle their permanents, and while Smokestack is slow, it does accomplish this, every time.

Disclaimer: I've never played 5c Stax but I've recently picked up the red-only and black/red variants

In my brief time playing the deck, I've found this actually to be a pretty solid play. If your opponent goes land -> go or land->draw spell, you've taken a big step to locking them out of the game by ramping turn 2 and then dropping the rest of your hand as fast as possible. Worst case scenario is they drop a ton of stuff and out-permanent you, in which case you a) have enough quick permanents (or a tangle wire) in your hand to race them, or b) don't ramp. If you played a 4-drop on turn 1 you usually have the mana available to cast nearly any other permanent in your deck. Choosing b) and not ramping would probably be a blowout, but it's unlikely that one would keep a hand without turn 2 plays in the first place.

I tend to think of Smokestack as a finisher as well, but if you can play it without the possibility of it getting Mana Drained and you have some follow-up plays for turn 2 and 3, I think it's such a potential game-changer that you've got to run it out there.

I'm not saying that it's a bad play at all.  You are assuming that it resolves though, which is key.  If they Force it, and are allowed a turn to develop their mana, you may have put yourself in a much, much worse position than you needed to.  You need to keep hands with at least two pieces of early action.  I'd almost always rather drop a Sphere before I dropped a Stack.  

As a drain player, turn 1 Stack is really frightening unless my hand is all restricted mana.  Like, if I don't have a mox and they play Turn 1 Stack, I am in a lot of trouble.  Even with a mox, I still have to deal with it before I win because Tinker and Infinite Turns don't race a Stack very well.

Absolutely, but don't you feel like you're just able to go for more of a combo kill at that point?  If your opponent is playing 5CStax wouldn't you agree that there are other things that they can do on turn one that would be more devastating?

Smokestack is devastating, but if you're sitting across from 5CStax, what card do you fear most on turn 1?

[Juggernaut GO]

Why play this deck, when you could play



NO LOTUS MOTHERFUCKIN SHOPS!

[Prospero]

Why play this deck, when you could play



NO LOTUS MOTHERFUCKIN SHOPS!

I was very happy to see Shops in the top 4.  Still, Drains and Forces won the event.  The reign of terror isn't over yet.

His list is a very interesting take on the environment.  It's not what I would have played, but I respect that he won with it.  If it worked for him, as it obviously did, then more power to him. 

And I would imagine that if he had a Lotus, he'd run it, all hyperbole aside.

[ilpeggiore]

why pentacolor over monochrome or stacker ?

 5 colors:  you need bad land ( gemstone) that are slower than city of T. you will suffer cotv0 on the draw ( cause you have no way to constantly get 2 mana first turn). Your decks will have not only less mana but also less lock-pieces cause some space is taken from the tutors. You could not play mishras factory or abuse metalworker. And all these weakness don't save you from a rebuilt or a recall but 'll give you color screw caused by waste vulnerability.

the only colors I would consider :
-blue : tinker is a bomb both in terms of tempo and mana, ancestral don't need explanations.it's an easier splash cause, you have tolaria in the main.
-red : post-side reb could be the best answa for blue 'bounce spell.

Regarding Smokestack in Workshop decks:
Shop decks are generally prison decks, but there are two directions to go by.
You can aim for the hardlock strategy which 5C Stax and Uba Stax strive to do.
You can aim for the softlock strategy which Shop Aggro and MUD hope to do.

it's real but there is the over way : (nat) stacker tries to do hard lock while beating up the opponent

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Juggernaut
2 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Triskelion
2 powder keg
3 Crucible of worlds
3 smockeStack
1 sundering Titan
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

I don't see why use 4 colour when you could use only 1 or 0 .

another question :

Until echoing' ll be a played card, isn't better mixin' thorns and spheres ?

[Prospero]

The tutor effects of black are important, Tinker is important, both Welder and Shaman are important, and Balance out of the sideboard (in the proper match) is devastating.

All these things grant you some flexibility, enough to recover from devastating plays that your opponents can make.  I feel that this is the best version.

[Smmenen]

That was a very good article.

Shop players, we are a community unto ourselves. We are not prevalent, but we are present. Work with each other, test, discuss theory, listen, learn.

And win.

THIS!

Why do we have to have subset communities?  Why does there have to be a community of Shop players, Drain players, etc?  

I thought that was something worth moving away from?  I thought the idea of players being generalists as opposed to niche specialists is a worthwhile goal?  Don't we have enough players unwilling to set outside of their comfort zone?  Shouldn't players play whatever they feel is best rather than what they are used to playing?  

It's interesting that you say that I'm a combo player.    I've played combo decks in the past, but I've also played Drain decks just as much, designing Meandeck Gifts, for example.   And I've played other decks besides on many occasion.   

[Sean Ryan]

That was a very good article.

Shop players, we are a community unto ourselves. We are not prevalent, but we are present. Work with each other, test, discuss theory, listen, learn.

And win.

THIS!

Why do we have to have subset communities?  Why does there have to be a community of Shop players, Drain players, etc? 

I thought that was something worth moving away from?  I thought the idea of players being generalists as opposed to niche specialists is a worthwhile goal?  Don't we have enough players unwilling to set outside of their comfort zone?  Shouldn't players play whatever they feel is best rather than what they are used to playing? 

It's interesting that you say that I'm a combo player.    I've played combo decks in the past, but I've also played Drain decks just as much, designing Meandeck Gifts, for example.   And I've played other decks besides on many occasion.   

That was my reaction as well, but not everyone has the breathe of experience that you or some of us more seasoned players do.

What I do understand though is that certain players will have better knowledge of certain archetypes they have more experience and their opinion's should be weighted as such.

The average magic players have a tendancy to identify with the deck they are playing at a given moment...even to their detriment.  Part of this comes from one having limited resources and can only invest in one deck per season.  Not as big of a deal in rotating formats.   This season I'm playing faeries, the next I am Kithkin.  The greats, however, tend not to identify with a deck, but look to play the best deck regardless of what it is, or even break the metagame by coming up with new decks that define the format.   

In Vintage, not only is their no rotation, but things have coalessed into around 5 different strategies and some of them lack overlap, ie Shops, Drains, Bazaars.  It's much easier to identify with the deck ou have invetsed thousands of dollars in especially when it never rotates.  However, becasue things never rotate, with enough time you have the oppurtuntiy to become profeccient and possibly even master the entire format.

[Prospero]

That was a very good article.

Shop players, we are a community unto ourselves. We are not prevalent, but we are present. Work with each other, test, discuss theory, listen, learn.

And win.

THIS!

Why do we have to have subset communities?  Why does there have to be a community of Shop players, Drain players, etc?  

I thought that was something worth moving away from?  I thought the idea of players being generalists as opposed to niche specialists is a worthwhile goal?  Don't we have enough players unwilling to set outside of their comfort zone?  Shouldn't players play whatever they feel is best rather than what they are used to playing?  

It's interesting that you say that I'm a combo player.    I've played combo decks in the past, but I've also played Drain decks just as much, designing Meandeck Gifts, for example.   And I've played other decks besides on many occasion.  

I said nothing about subset communities for the rest of Vintage, so I'll leave your initial comment be save for a response to the Shop player contingent.

I did say that I thought that Shop players should test and discuss theory with other Shop players because I think that the majority of Vintage players don't know how to play Shops.  There's a difference between someone playing Shops for a few weeks and someone who has been playing Shops for a longer period of time; experience.  If someone tested 100 matches with Shops right now, they'd have a good handle on most of the basics by the end of the 100 matches.  And yet there are things that I feel like I've only really begun to appreciate in the last six months, things that I may have taken for granted in the year before.  Because the amount of testing required to reach good/great status with a given deck is so demanding I think that it's impossible for a new/inexperienced player to understand every fundamental as well as someone who has been testing the deck for a long time.  I don't see why this is controversial.  If I had spent the last 10 years running Mana Drains, and only Mana Drains, I'd say that I probably had a better understanding of the nature of Drains than a new Drain pilot.  

There are many, many great Drain pilots.  How many great Shop pilots are there?  There are only two Shop players in the country whom I'd call elite.  And I wouldn't call myself one of them.  

I don't know that all great players are capable of being great players with any given deck.  There's more to a deck than 60 cards - there's theory and in game decisions that will make or break you.  The patience of a Drain pilot could be the undoing of a Shop pilot.  Each deck has its own feel, and it's not something that's readily apparent.  I have said before that I consider you one of, if not the, premier Combo players in the country.  I have said that I think you're the best Gro player in the country.  You're not bad with Drains either.  I think that your Stax list was bad.  I think that if you did nothing but play Shops for the next year you'd come up with a list that is markedly different from the one you advocated.  If you think that success translates to all arena's, fine.  I don't.  I'm a good Shop player, but that doesn't mean that I'd consider myself a good Combo pilot.  Maybe I have the potential to be, if I put the time in.  But as I said before, I think that the amount of time that you have to spend in order to reach that level is prohibitive to reaching that level with multiple decks at the same time.  Or staying at that level with multiple decks at the same time.  

How is it possible for a neophyte Shop player to learn when they have no one to teach them?  If James Hangley and I had missed the Dan Herd Memorial Tournament there would have been a single 5CStax deck there out of more than 60 players.  That's criminal, mostly because Shops are a predator of Drains.  In such a Drain infested metagame you would think that natural market forces would correct the situation.  They haven't, because there has been no community of Shop players.  Don't you think that's just the least bit absurd?  Troy Costick posted a report on decks in the metagame over the last few months, and the sheer dominance of Mana Drains.  If I didn't play Vintage something like 70% of the Shop finishes wouldn't have happened.  Because nobody has been playing the deck, because few understand how to play the deck, because there's no one out there to help the people who turn to Shops.

Why do I think there should be a subset community of Shop players?  Because Shops are an answer to Drains and because there have been so few Shop players that it's impossible to teach the neophytes before they abandon their deck, believing it to be uncompetitive in a given metagame.  I've gotten quite a few PM's in the last few weeks asking for advice on builds, sideboards, and theory.  I've answered them.  I've also seen other people take N.Y.S.E. Stax to high finishes at Vintage tournaments.  People who weren't on N.Y.S.E.  I know that pre 6/20 N.Y.S.E. Stax was piloted to a top 8 just this past weekend.  Why did this happen?  Because a collection of Shop players from New York worked on a list and performed with it.  Why did they perform with it?  Because they had a small community of Shop players to rely upon, test with, and discuss the deck with.    

I don't see why it should be a problem to have specialists.  I know that there are certain players who are known to be elite with a given deck.  If I wanted to talk about Combo, I'd ask you.  If I wanted to talk about Drains maybe I'd ask Rich Shay.  If I wanted to talk about Null Rod strategies, maybe I'd ask Vinnie Forino.  If I wanted to talk elite level Shop strategy, I'd talk to Roland.  Sure, all of the aforementioned players are great players.  Why must they all be great players with all decks?  Do you really believe that everything translates quite so easily?  The aforementioned players are elite because they've spent an inordinate amount of time becoming elite with their decks.  They know the strategies better than the person who decides to run a given strategy for the first time because they have what the neophyte does not; experience.  There are very few elite players in the country.  There are even fewer players who are elite with more than one pillar.  Do you really believe that an individual can be elite with all five pillars at the same time?

As long as Tezzeret is the most popular deck in Vintage (and given that it won Champs I don't see this changing) I will continue to play the deck that I believe to be the best in the format; 5CStax.  I will adjust to the metagame and I will not always play the same 60.  No given card in the deck is holy.  There isn't anything I wouldn't cut if the environment demanded it.  I will change as I must.  If the metagame shifts so that Shops are an awful game day decision then I'll play whatever, in my opinion, is best that I know I can play at a high level.  Living where I do, where Mana Drains infest Vintage, I don't see this changing anytime soon.

  

[Prospero]

That was a very good article.

Shop players, we are a community unto ourselves. We are not prevalent, but we are present. Work with each other, test, discuss theory, listen, learn.

And win.

THIS!

Why do we have to have subset communities?  Why does there have to be a community of Shop players, Drain players, etc? 

I thought that was something worth moving away from?  I thought the idea of players being generalists as opposed to niche specialists is a worthwhile goal?  Don't we have enough players unwilling to set outside of their comfort zone?  Shouldn't players play whatever they feel is best rather than what they are used to playing? 

It's interesting that you say that I'm a combo player.    I've played combo decks in the past, but I've also played Drain decks just as much, designing Meandeck Gifts, for example.   And I've played other decks besides on many occasion.   

That was my reaction as well, but not everyone has the breadth of experience that you, or some of us more seasoned players, do.

What I do understand though is that certain players will have better knowledge of certain archetypes they have more experience and their opinion's should be weighted as such.

The average magic players have a tendency to identify with the deck they are playing at a given moment...even to their detriment.  Part of this comes from one having limited resources and can only invest in one deck per season.  Not as big of a deal in rotating formats.   This season I'm playing Faeries, the next I am playing Kithkin.  The greats, however, tend not to identify with a deck, but look to play the best deck regardless of what it is, or even break the metagame by coming up with new decks that define the format.   

In Vintage, not only is there no rotation, but things have coalesced around 5 different strategies and some of them overlap, i.e. Shops, Drains and Bazaars.  It's much easier to identify with the deck you have invested thousands of dollars in, especially when it never rotates.  However, because things never rotate, with enough time you have the opportunity to become proficient and possibly even master the entire format.

I don't think that it's possible for a player to master all five pillars at the same time.  I think that the environment changes quickly enough now that the nuances that a veteran would understand may be lost on someone stretching themselves quite so thin.

I've won power running Drains and Shops over the last 8 years.  I'd call myself pretty seasoned, but maybe that's just me.

I do identify with Shops right now because I believe them to be the best choice for the metagame.  I have invested thousands into the deck.  I've also posted high finishes with it on a pretty consistent basis.  If the environment shifted so that Shops were a bad decision then I would play something else.  I don't believe this is going to happen anytime soon - especially because the D.C.I. has said that they're going to work to bring the other pillars up to a point of parity with Mana Drain. 

[Smmenen]

because there have been so few Shop players that it's impossible to teach the neophytes before they abandon their deck, believing it to be uncompetitive in a given metagame.  

I think that's a really good point.   Drain pilots tend to informally teach each other, from teacher to apprentice, through testing circles and smaller tournament scenes.  It's harder for other archetypes to break through because of the informal training that Drain pilots receive and the association that becomes so powerful with Drains and winning.  

It's funny that I have a reputation, according to you, as a Combo player, or a Grow player, or whatever.    I am the only active player left from Team Paragon, which was THE team for Keeper masters and was the most elite team at the time.   You had to be considered a Drain master to join that team.   I think thinking of players as specialists is not always helpful.  I like to see players break a niche.  Tommy Kolowith plays anything: Stax, Ichorid, Drains, or Combo.  I am sort of the same way. 

[Prospero]

because there have been so few Shop players that it's impossible to teach the neophytes before they abandon their deck, believing it to be uncompetitive in a given metagame.  

I think that's a really good point.   Drain pilots tend to informally teach each other, from teacher to apprentice, through testing circles and smaller tournament scenes.  It's harder for other archetypes to break through because of the informal training that Drain pilots receive and the association that becomes so powerful with Drains and winning.  

It's funny that I have a reputation, according to you, as a Combo player, or a Grow player, or whatever.    I am the only active player left from Team Paragon, which was THE team for Keeper masters and was the most elite team at the time.   You had to be considered a Drain master to join that team.   I think thinking of players as specialists is not always helpful.  I like to see players break a niche.  Tommy Kolowith plays anything: Stax, Ichorid, Drains, or Combo.  I am sort of the same way.  

If the environment shifted so much that Shops were flat out bad, I'd go back to running Drains and I would test like mad so that I could reach the highest level I'm capable of reaching with them.  I ran B.B.S. and Keeper back in the day.  I'm pretty sure that I ran the Paragon list at one point.

I think of you as a Combo pilot in part because it's what you used to win Champs in '07.  I think of you as a Gro pilot because of consistently high finishes you've had running Gro.  I know that you're an excellent Drain pilot, I haven't considered you in that particular light because I didn't really see you running Tezzeret and because it's been a few years now since Gifts has been restricted.  I meant no offense, it's just how I unconsciously consider you at some level I suppose.  

I love my Shops but I would play something else if I didn't think I could win with them.  I did run Drains for nearly five years.  I have Tezzeret and Steel City Vault put together right now, with only three proxies between the two decks if I took my power from Stax.  I am a niche player in the sense that I have only run Shops in tournaments in the last year, but I do play Drains while testing, and I let the greater Combo mind on the team educate me as to how to run that.  

I had kept to myself, never played in big events, didn't actively post on T.M.D. so I'd imagine that people only see me as a Shop pilot, especially now.  Still, I didn't pick up a play-set of English Drains, Forces and all the requisite duals just to test.  If I were pushed to play another deck, I would.

[Sean Ryan]

I don't think that it's possible for a player to master all five pillars at the same time.  I think that the environment changes quickly enough now that the nuances that a veteran would understand may be lost on someone stretching themselves quite so thin.

Not at tournament level mastery at a given time, but skilled enough to be able to switch on a dime and play at the highest level within a short period of time.

Perhaps I've just been aournd a long time, but I feel confidant that I could pick up Tezzeret, Shops, or Rods and top8 with which ever one is strongest at a given event. 

You put in the time and you should be able to switch archetypes without to much trouble.  All though I never got there with Storm combo.

[zeus-online]

It's funny that I have a reputation, according to you, as a Combo player, or a Grow player, or whatever.    I am the only active player left from Team Paragon, which was THE team for Keeper masters and was the most elite team at the time.   You had to be considered a Drain master to join that team.   I think thinking of players as specialists is not always helpful.  I like to see players break a niche.  Tommy Kolowith plays anything: Stax, Ichorid, Drains, or Combo.  I am sort of the same way. 

I think it is because you and your team practicly invented modern vintage combo and combo control....:
Org. Long created by meandeck
Hulk smash created by meandeck (First real, functional combo/control list with mana drains)
Meandeck Gifts again created by meandeck

There's a ton of others, but these are very well known decks that have won lots of tournaments in their time. And 2 of the lists i mentioned has won a World championship.

[LessThanRight]

So here's something that I was thinking about last night after digesting the No Lotus List and thinking about some of the advice given by Prospero.  Shops need to be on the offensive.  You must keep the pressure on during the first couple of turns.  So this idea leads to consistent 4 of builds.  Your starting 7 should have 2-3 lock pieces and your first couple of draws should find more.  So the question is why are 4of's better than 3of's?  What is the difference between the following two lists:

4 x Shpere of Resistance
4 x Tangle Wire
4 x Smokestack
3 x Crucible

and

3 x Sphere of Resistance
3 x Tangle Wire
3 x Smokestack
3 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Crucible

Same number of lock pieces.  When putting together a list with multiple tutors, would a more diverse list of threats give you the best chance of handling whatever your opponent has? 



@Subsets

I see no problem with any sort of division between players.  The idea of a particular archetype community seems like a great way to spur competition.  Is it any worse than a particular team that keeps there tech secret until the day of the tourney?  There are quite a lot of lines that can be drawn between Drains and Shops, Midwest and East Coast, Young and Old, but in the end everybody still shares with the community at large.


@The community at large

As someone who is at best on the fringe of the Vintage community, I'm always impressed at how open and dedicated everyone is.  TMD alone is an amazing acheivement.  What other sport can a complete amatuer show up to an event and do battle with the top names in the game?  I look at my non-magic (muggle?) friends and think how unfoturnate it is to spend tons of money on football tickets and jerseys and then simply watch the game.  I can spend the same amount of money and actually play with best in the world. 

So thanks to the entire community for all the hard work

-LTR

[Prospero]

So here's something that I was thinking about last night after digesting the No Lotus List and thinking about some of the advice given by Prospero.  Shops need to be on the offensive.  You must keep the pressure on during the first couple of turns.  So this idea leads to consistent 4 of builds.  Your starting 7 should have 2-3 lock pieces and your first couple of draws should find more.  So the question is why are 4of's better than 3of's?  What is the difference between the following two lists:

4 x Sphere of Resistance
4 x Tangle Wire
4 x Smokestack
3 x Crucible

and

3 x Sphere of Resistance
3 x Tangle Wire
3 x Smokestack
3 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Crucible

Same number of lock pieces.  When putting together a list with multiple tutors, would a more diverse list of threats give you the best chance of handling whatever your opponent has? 

Different pieces are right for different metagames, there are times when it's absolutely correct to run Chalices.  Still, Chalices are better when there's more combo in the environment than there seems to be right now.  As such, Sphere, Smokestack and Tangle Wire - which are all good against various Mana Drain strategies - are better.  Things change and that won't always be the way it is.  As I said before, nothing is holy and I'd cut anything if the environment demanded it. 

If you diversify your threat base you risk lessening the density of your threats. 

It comes back to Stax being an elegant hate deck.  You have to know what you're hating.  It's very difficult to gun for more than one major deck in the environment at the same time without making the deck so-so against both.  Look fastball, adjust to everything else.  What's the fastball right now?  I'd say it's Tezzeret.

[pierce]

I've never tapped a workshop for mana. Most likely, i never will.

I have never cast mana drain before. Wonder what that's like.

However, I've gone 'infinite' by placing/winning tournaments with various forms of combo and have some decent finishes with fish as well.

While I'd like to think I can pick up any deck and win with it, usually without practice, logic tells me this is a classic case of everestimating my abilities. If I were to run shops, you best believe I'd be on the phone with Twaun pretty quickly. I'd be asking Yang some questions too.
Same thing for drains, but with LHC.

Specialists give you this option: they exist as masters of competing dojos, secure with truth through their testing and expirience. As such I highly respect their opinions.

The notion that we should move away from this is difficult. I suspect many drain players have always been drain players. My first vintage article I read was about Grim Long, I proxied it up, and got hooked. I became addicted to the turn one/two kill. Since then, I've had to sell my collection. Despite getting rid of seas, a ruby, fetches, wastelands, confidants, beta sol ring, beta DT, etc I kept one card.
Yawgmoths Will.
I knew I'd need it again someday.

Another issue closely related to the specialist issue is the proxy issue. Workshops cost some scratch. Not everyone can just afford to play shops while having other decks built. One of the main reasons I fell back on fish for the ICBM open was that I knew the deck, the other was that I could borrow all the cards no one else wanted to play.

Prospero, I appreciate your advice and primer. If I were to play shops, they would be of great assistance.