NEW B/R LIST IS UP

[kbeta]

For what it's worth...

A unlimited mint Berserk was selling for a little more than $15 on eBay before being unrestricted...now they are lurking about $30+.

I'm glad I didn't sell mine...yet.

[riffraffxl]

Well, I understand that WotC would like a list with as few restrictions as possible, but I'm very wary of Berserk. I'd rather they kept it restricted, but we'll have to see how things shape up.

Of course, they also restricted two cards that Type 1 members didn't want restriced, for Type 1.5, a format that is even less played than Vintage. So, that didn't make much sense either.

Edit: WotC knows about 'Tog in Type 1, and factored this into their decision, right? Well, I hope so.

[upinthe]

Congratulations, a couple of the every dwindling amount of affordable decks (AoS and Dragon) have been shot in the foot. Did we/they really need to reduce the options of a player on budget even futher?

[GnomesofZurich]

If they want a list with as few restrictions as possible they're not doing a great job of it.  Let's see, they unrestricted three cards (of which I would say Berserk was a somewhat questionable decision) and then restricted two more cards that didn't need anything done to them.

Net result: one fewer card restricted; oh, and the death of two deck types, and a boost to another deck that was already doing quite well.  Way to go Wizards!

Edit: Oh, and everyone is talking about how these changes were made for 1.5.  I certainly hope that's not the reason!  I'm a 1.5 player more than a Type 1 player, and do not see Dragon combo or Squirrelcraft/AoS as dominating either Vintage format.  If they really wanted to fix the Dragon combo they could've done what people have been requesting since the printing of Worldgorger Dragon and just errata the damn card so that it doesn't interact the same way with Animate Dead and similar.

[iceman]

I play unpowered and I just lost 3 of my own decks, one which i just completed.

I can almost guarantee Berserk will be finding itself back on the restricted list in no time.


Effective April 1st - April fools joke maybe? Or just wishful thinking.

[riffraffxl]

Quote I play unpowered and I just lost 3 of my own decks, one which i just completed.

Wow. That really sucks.  

If they had simply unrestricted recall, I would have been happy. I'm indifferent towards Hurkyl's Recall.

Edit: I'd add that unrestricting Berserk does open up some nice deckbuilding possibilities. In an ideal world though, I would rather have new possibilities come from a new Magic set, rather than unrestricting old, expensive, hard to find cards.

[Azhrei]

Well, this is certainly interesting. Hah!

[CrazyCarl]

How dare they unleash the horror that is Recall.  Bastards.

That said, I think multiple berserks will actually hurt vs the control matchup due to you having more dead  cards more often.  I guess that's what Brainstorm is for ;P.

How cool is it that Green has removal again?  You can kill a Dreadnought with Berserk   Or just win ;P

[Azhrei]

You know what? I'm going to go out on a limb here and be BRUTALLY honest.

Do you know WHY our format may have just gone to shit? Because someone made a reasoned argument based on popular opinion. Now, I don't blame the person who made that argument one bit-- after all, he was just reporting the results of a poll.

The problem was listening to what people wanted in the first place. Let me clue you in on something that should now be painfully obvious: MOST OF YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, EVER. God DAMN it, this is why people bitch about an undercurrent of elitism: the vast majority of you aren't that fucking bright. JP knew about Berserk, I knew about Berserk, but apparently some ridiculous number of you have no clue what it means to multiply by small numbers in a game where you only have to reach TWENTY and THERE ARE NO FRACTIONS.

Democracy doesn't work because people are STUPID. This is a classic example of ignorance rearing its ugly head to fuck everyone in the ass. Hey, while we're at it, who here doesn't like taxes? Why don't we vote to end taxes so we can have more money? It's not like we need roads or police or anything.

DAMMIT.

[Desert Fox]

Azhrei, I've got to say that I agree with you completely. I laughed so much after reading your post, because I'm always saying how stupid people are in general (and not even talking about Magic, here). And as an administrator at another forum, I know about the whole elitist argument from the populace.

*sigh*

Anyway, to get on topic here, I am completely baffled by this. I had to check and make sure it wasn't April 1st already. Seriously, not only is unrestricting Berserk absolutely ridiculous, but calling Entomb a "tutor" and possibly killing off some deck archetypes (Dragon, Reanimator, etc) is just too much.

The only good thing I could get out of this is that I can sell my Berserk for more money, now...

[Vegeta2711]

To be fair noone had thought about Tog (or at least had posted it to the masses) and beserk togheter. Still sadly you are correct.

[Azhrei]

JP had a post that had Intution + Berserk pics as the ONLY POINTS IN THE THREAD.

The very fact that the best that can be offered is "no one thought of that" does nothing but prove my point for me.

[Akuma (gio)]

What's even more amazing is the amount of people who cannot spell the word B E R S E R K...

[spevack]

No, no, no.  This is total bullcrap.  Azhrei sits here and flames away, as usual, unmolested by any moderators because he's a PARAGON, and therefore revered.  God forbid someone hold him to the same standard as everyone else, or he might take his ball and go home, and not post decklists anymore and then where the fuck would we all be?

Who's the person who took credit for SINGLE-HANDEDLY getting rid of Fact or Fiction?  I guess the DCI's decision to restrict THAT card meant "listening to what people wanted."  So decide Azhrei -- it's okay when they listen to you, because you're SMART, but when they listen to ANYONE ELSE then we have problems with democracy.  Oh, that argument makes a hell of a lot of sense.

And for the record, people bitch about an undercurrent of elitism because of things like your signature, and nothing else:

"Team Paragons: Making the Decks You Play"

Get over yourself.

 

[Sylvester]

omg..spevack: humour, do you know that word? Not everything is to be taken literally.

The problem is also not that the DCI listened to someone with a well-defended opinion on berserk (or FoF), but that it listened to an anonymous majority that did nothing to defend its opinion. I doubt anyone can argue that restricting FoF was bad or that unrestricting berserk is good, so i must conclude that listening to a silent majority is useless.

Oh, well. Let's give the format a few weeks to adapt and see what comes out.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Mar. 03 2003,21:00)To be fair noone had thought about Tog (or at least had posted it to the masses) and beserk togheter. Still sadly you are correct.

From my Berserk should not be unrestricted thread--Don't say I didn't warn you

Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Jan. 15 2003,00:02)Somehow I doubt a 3 color tog deck will be viable in T1. *lol*  

Quote (dandan @ Jan. 15 2003,03:48)Even ICT could win against BerserkTog.dec!

Quote (Crater Hellion @ Jan. 15 2003,17:59)So if Berserk is unrestricted in T1, it will not have *that* much of an impact.

EDIT-\n\n

[Redman]

Quote Democracy doesn't work because people are STUPID. This is a classic example of ignorance rearing its ugly head to fuck everyone in the ass. Hey, while we're at it, who here doesn't like taxes? Why don't we vote to end taxes so we can have more money? It's not like we need roads or police or anything.

Didn't we try that once before? I think it was called the Articles of Confederation.

The only change that comes as a real surprise to me is Berserk.

And the real ironic thing is that some people think it'll make green decks better.


And damn, I wish I had bought some Berserks.

I dont' think the format will neccsarily go to hell though. Things will balance out I think.

Things like StP and Maze of Ith will likely become more pupular.

And I think the loss of Dragon combo was a good thing, beleive it or not.

[leviat]

Perhaps this might be "thinking out of the box", but let's be honest here. How much does Wizards really care about the T1 community? And to go a step farther, why should they? It's not like I bought a pack of Unlimited any time in the recent past.

Wizards rarely puts the effort into the Type-1 events that it does for the Type-2, so I guess where I'm going with this is, why should we care what the "Official" restricted/banned list is?

Already our weekly Type-1 tournament at Fat Cat's uses the "Proxy Any Five" rule, so it's not like we're going to get sanctioned any time soon. Why not come up with an official TMD Banned/Restricted list? I realize this automatically creates confusion as now there's two version of a list out there and etc. I understand this. But I really think that banning Earthcraft and Entomb is just dumb. Really dumb. Neither card contributed to a "broken" deck and just cut down on the playability of decks in T1.

Berserk on the other hand is pretty obvious. It's similar to printing a blue card that costs U and says "Draw one card for each card in your hand, then discard your hand at end of turn." (Yes, I realize that is an exageration). My point is that Berserk has the power to give a creature +10/+0 and Trample for one little green mana. It's power should obviously be recognized.

So, maybe it's time to just forsake the hand that feeds us and come up with our own list of Banned and Restricted cards.

Edit: Please take this post with light sarcasm. Caught up in the emotion, I probably didn't take the time to consider that this really isn't the end of the world. Why? Because everything will adapt. I'm still pissed about R: Entomb and Earthcraft though.

[Saucemaster]

Quote Why not come up with an official TMD Banned/Restricted list?

Because some of us play sanctioned Type 1, and don't play exclusively with other TMD players.  You could make a TMD B/R list, but what good would it be except in TMD Invitationals and casual play?

[Azhrei]

@ Spevack

Well, let's make a brief comparison:

Fact or Fiction is restricted. Cheers and jubilations go up across the land. Go Azhrei and everyone else who emailed along with him!

Berserk is unrestricted. Jaws drop as the format now has no viable aggro decks and can expect to degenerate into a sea of near mirror-matches. Go masses!

Futhermore, you'll note that JP is the one to give credit for the anti-Berserk argument. I'd be extremely pleased if he'd been listened to more; I fully respect and use his ideas and opinions. I'll even go as far as to admit that 95% of the Hulk deck is fully his idea-- I just asked if anyone had a list for t1 Tog.

Also, you will note that Team Paragons is in no way directly affliiated with The Mana Drain, and is a private playtesting team. You will also note that Paragons have developed Paragon Keeper, Hulk Smash, Funker, Old School Expulsion, Stacker 2, Neo-Academy, Reaplacement Killers, Twister.dec, Wilkinson White Weenie, Brown Paper Bag, and versions of Mask and TnT.

Now, you tell ME that people aren't playing our decks.

On the bright side, it's nice to have a fan.

And LMAOAKTCATR @ JP.

[Kheoinn]

An interesting concept.

But first, we'll have to see how things out. I wouldn't be surprised if Entomb and Earthcraft were taken off, and Berserk put back on.

Too bad my favorite and only competative deck just got shafted (dragon.dec).

Oh well... $150 down the drain, at least...

[Redman]

Correction to my earlier post: Things will hopefully balance out, but at the same time, aggro is in very serious trouble.

[Kheoinn]

Aggro? You mean control, which will get screwed over by the new GroAtog decks, along with TnT and Berserking Mask decks :-/

[leviat]

Quote (Saucemaster @ Mar. 03 2003,18:32)

Quote Why not come up with an official TMD Banned/Restricted list?

Because some of us play sanctioned Type 1, and don't play exclusively with other TMD players.  You could make a TMD B/R list, but what good would it be except in TMD Invitationals and casual play?

I guess my point was more along the lines of just setting up each tourny to have it's own type of B/R list. While annoying, it would be better than seeing Psychatog everywhere until they attempt to restrict Gush thinking that will solve the problem.

[Zherbus]

Quote No, no, no.  This is total bullcrap.  Azhrei sits here and flames away, as usual, unmolested by any moderators because he's a PARAGON, and therefore revered.  God forbid someone hold him to the same standard as everyone else, or he might take his ball and go home, and not post decklists anymore and then where the fuck would we all be?

1) It isn't a flame if it addresses the public in general.

2) Azhrei is not only a Moderator, but THE co-administrator of this website.

3) The aforementioned fact has nothing to do with the Paragons deckbuilding/playtesting team.

4) There was not only NO breach of forum policy in his post, but he was also right! Poorly veiled insults on how this site is run is not appreciated. Leave if you dislike it. That goes for everyone, it'll save me the bandwidth.

Quote And for the record, people bitch about an undercurrent of elitism because of things like your signature, and nothing else:

"Team Paragons: Making the Decks You Play"

Get over yourself.

I actually came up with that line because I enjoy the fact that I make decks and tweaks that people use to a large degree of success. Celebration of ones success's and elitism are two different things.

[Vegeta2711]

Ok I'm a fucktard, happy? -.-  3 color tog, I seriously didn't think it could work well enough. Hell I didn't want it to work considering how much I played against it in T2.

There was no deck to go with it, so yes I was too fucking lazy to see if the god damn POS thing would work. Then again I had no clue the DCI would fucking unrestrict it just because we whined about it a bit. I thought we would get the usual bullcrap speel about something being too powerful. etc etc.

Goody. Fuck you too, thanks.

[Saucemaster]

Quote it would be better than seeing Psychatog everywhere until they attempt to restrict Gush thinking that will solve the problem.

Lol.  God, I hope you don't turn out to be a prophet here, because that does sound pretty much on par with WotC's track record.   I  get your point, but let's hope to God competitive Type 1 doesn't just degenerate into "competitive casual" with in-house B/R lists, etc.  Nothing against casual play--it's great--but I still want a healthy, sanctioned format with some Wizards backing, even if it's minimal.  Which, interestingly, was exactly what we had before this B/R change.  Sigh.  Well, we'll see how broken Berkserk really turns out to be, I suppose.

[iceman]

Honetly, do you think Berserk will stay unrestricted for long?

[FeverDog]

Congrats to Azhrei for realizing something that i and a few others(who shall remain nameless) found out a long time ago, that people are stupid as hell.
Also, that was very funny, Legend-esque even  

[-CF-]

I don't get why people are going REB crazy; StP will kill -anything- berserked,  regardless of color. Keeper will adapt nicely. Again. As always. (Predictions: Edict is out of the maindeck for StP. StP is Misdirection-proof against lone togs. Fire/Ice might go for StP too - let's see how sligh does...)

While I'm giving cents away, let's get rid of some additional pocket change:

* This may actually be the last shove Maze of Ith needs to see play again.

* Berserk is bad as creature kill after the errata - which some seem to be unfamiliar with:

Berserk Instant
Play Berserk only before the combat damage step.
Target creature gains trample and gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is its power. At end of turn, destroy that creature if it attacked this turn.

* Good points Azhrei.

Also, I tried to warn them (from my letter to Mr Forsythe)

Quote Berserk:
This is one of the cards that has the most people rooting for
unrestriction. However, the type 1 cardpool contains every fast
creature, fast mana and fast pump ever printed. Thus, both trample
and double power is too big a threat for one mana. It would for
example potentially make the already highly potent Psychatog decks
and Mishra's Workshop-powered fatty decks too lethal.

*shrug*. The next months will be interesting.

IMPORTANT EDIT:

--
Chris\n\n