NEW B/R LIST IS UP

[routedashf]

Hey now.

Brian Weissman got Mind Twist banned circa 1995.

One man can change the world .

I also remember the large elements of bitching and whining (not on TMD or even BD, of course) about the banning of Mind Twist.  Also the restriction of Balance, Land Tax and Black Vise...

And for chrissake's I hope they don't unrestrict Vise.  

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Mr. Channel-Fireball @ Mar. 04 2003,00:26)If anyone on this board thinks that it takes one person to change the rules of a format that governs thousands upon thousands of players by their 'suggestions' then said person needs to make a reality check.

I believe you really need to leave your ego at the door if you think that this site had major influence on the current b/r list.  Granted, this site is probably one of the leading T1 gatherings, with many viable avenues of, good, information, but do you seriously believe that one persons post altered a game? Do you seriously think that one person restricted Fact or Fiction?

C'mon...get real.

He actually did it by himself.  He's got the emails to prove it, just like how I have the email that has my words about Hurkyl's on it.

[hulk3rules]

Quote (Prospero @ Mar. 03 2003,23:18)1. Swords in response
2. Diabolic Edict you
3. Wish for Edict, Edict you
4. Mana Drain
5. Force of Will
6.  Misdirection (and when isn't that fun?)
7.  The Abyss
8.  Moat
9.  Block with my random dork
10. Blood Moon.  (Gro and GroATog - I woud imagine - would have a horrible time with this on the board.  If red can't burn out their creatures, screw with their mana and aim the burn at their dome.)

Well I didn't really want to post on this thread, because as Spin13 already pointed out it is mostly crap, but I am not one to let things like this slip by.  "Block with my random dork."  Damn man, do you even know what berserk does.  If you want to sound all smart in your post you should at least know what the f***ing card does, because unless it's a huge random dork it's not gonna stop all the TRAMPLE damage that berserk is gonna be sending your way.

Man, I had to waste post #200 on this ass clown  

[IllusionX]

Everyone play fish and pack 4 maze of ith's!  untap and make the tog die die die!  

Anywho, just random madness to think about. =P

[Mith]

Hmm...I'm wondering how Ankh Slight with 4 REB and 4 Pyroblast in the board will do vs. GrowATog. An early Ankh makes Gush oh so painful, and basically negates Fastbond. The problem is those four Misdirects. I think that Keeper will adapt nicely, as it invariably does...upping the number of StP and REB. I don't particularily see the need for Berserk in Mask...I have trouble with room in the deck as it is. And as far as R/G with berserk...I wonder if a build with Balls and Firecats + Berserk and Fling will work. Maybe that's just too many mana drain targets

On a side note...when Berserk hits the $50-60 a piece range, I'll be really amused

Oh, and Maze of Ith is an amazing card. Anyone who hasn't dropped one vs. Mask or Tog can't open their mouth to bash it. Heck, I run two in the board of my GrowATog just for the mirror.

[IllusionX]

I agree, maze is awesome against big berserked critters.  I was testing it earlier against a bud of mine and maze just ate him up.

He was testing his classics zoo deck with 4 berserks, as well as a mask deck (B/g) and it just trumped him like there was no tomorrow.

I see it, tog gonna have to find room for some wastes or run some real bounce md to get around.

Viva la Maze!

[Mr. Machine]

as one of the moronic mass mentioned in earlier posts, i would just like to say one thing.

you are right.

in my (and everyone elses) defence, i didn't see it.
when i voted on that poll i had no idea that this kind of shit would be the result. i'm not sure what the result to the format will be, or how long berserk will stay unrestricted, but i fear the results. i think in this case stupidity is truly the root of the problem, whether wizards, or just everyones.

[dandan]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Mar. 04 2003,00:24)From my Berserk should not be unrestricted thread--Don't say I didn't warn you

Quote (dandan @ Jan. 15 2003,03:48)Even ICT could win against BerserkTog.dec!

From the thread on the B/R list for Aaron Forsythe

I said
"Recall can be safely unrestricted, Channel and Berserk could be discussed but I'd say no, Voltaic Key could probably also go without causing excess abuse. Don't even think about Braingeyser, Necro or Vise!!! "

It seems a little strange for me to be touted as one of the people responsible for the unrestriction of Berserk. I'd gladly take credit for waging the good war on allowing Portal and Starter cards in Type I, albeit so far a futile war.

Clearly I underestimated Tog in Type I, I was mistaken. It may well be able to beat ICT, although those Trolls would be a pain.
However it would be naive to think that if Tog proves itself to be more than hype, other decks won't adapt. This is Type I, even Keeper adapts if it has to.

[Shade]

Unrestricting Berserk is basically the same as stating that it isn't broken, when it most certainly is.

By the same token, Entomb and Earthcraft are certainly not broken, and should not be treated as such.

Hurkyl's Recall I'm torn on.  Still some potential for abuse in that one.

The only call I agree with is the unrestriction of Recall.

[riffraffxl]

Quote Azhrei:  You are out of line.  You and Zherbus, though you are super-administrators (or, perhaps, because you are super-administrators) must learn to accept criticism, lest the doom of Bdominia fall upon us here at TMD.  I don't think we're really in any danger of that kind, but posts and attitudes like yours insulting the entire "masses" are what contributes the most to the perception of elitism, not the fact that you are a good player.

The problem is, to a certain extent, he is right.

We had people here asking to unrestrict black vise and necro, for god's sake. I mean, what the hell. How can anyone suggest that and keep a straight face? Do you want someone like that shaping the banned and restricted list?

Let's face it, some opinions are more informed than others. I don't mean that as a free license to behave however you want, but I can understand his point.

-----------------

A separate, though related issue, is whether or not the mana drain crew affected WotC's decisions at all. The answer is probably yes.

They featured an article on us and quoted some of our members. Hell, they unrestriced Recall and Hurkyll's Recall. For better or for worse, I think R&D listened to some opinions on unrestricting Berserk and found them convincing. This is hypothesizing, but it makes sense based on the facts.

WotC might have been merely trying to live up to its promise of listening to us. The irony is perverse.

-----------------

As I stated earlier though, I guess the only way to see if
Berserk will warp the environment too much is to see how things develop. So, maybe there's no reason to be upset right now (though I'm in the keep Berserk restricted camp). I'm more surprised over the entomb and earthcraft changes.

[kirdape3]

JP: Odds now that I don't take a GAME against you barring something stupid like you having no mana somehow?.

Earthcraft being restricted is fairly odd; out of the German winning decks I only remember seeing one, maybe two SquirrelCraft builds.  If it's because of 1.5, however, ain't no thang.  Same with Entomb; Dragon wasn't bad to play against before the restriction.

Berserk just makes Psychatog better along with Growing Tog.  Sure, that's a big 'just makes...', but really it'll end up being either a) restricted soon after Tog takes >50% of the tournaments for awhile or b) ignored because MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS FORMAT ARE FUCKING RETARDS.  This last point has been/will be beaten to death for awhile, because I'm not the only one to feel this way.

As for the other unrestrictions, there's really nothing to be said.  Hurkyl's Recall didn't do too much with all the 'make a pile of mana' cards restricted and Recall wasn't played as a 1-of.

Next time we get on a 'fix this format pls tks' kick, we have to spend a LOT more time testing and keep JP out of it since he'll break the format like a walnut anyway :-p.

[MolotDET]

I am almost at a loss for words here.

     I think that the unrestriction of both of the Recalls will not be that bad.  Perhaps Hurkyl's might cause some combo deck to emerge or power a new version of Academy but, these things will not be evident for some time.
     Entomb and Earthcraft were unfortunate victims of the 1.5 B/R list being tied to the T1 B/R list.  I think this will hurt the format quite a bit because it has just pushed some semi-viable inexpensive decks out of the format.

BUT ALL OF THIS IS NOTHING...

     The unrestricting of Berserk is perhaps the most moronic thing that the DCI has ever saddled us with (that ones for you Cidz0r).  OF course we brought this apon ourselves, but if many of us had even thought that the DCI would entertain this thought, I am sure we would have come out in full force against it.
     All this does is make the top three Aggro decks even better.  Other lesser Aggro decks, while they may gain a foot up against control, will not be able to cope with these decks.  Keeper will adapt, combos will be forced to run more control type cards, other hard control will be forced to run some sub par cards and will be weakened.  Some soft control decks like Parfait will be able to drop some of their less savory cards for more solid choices and Tog will be everywhere.

Some predictions:

decks that will all but disappear:

Reanimator
AoS
Stompy
MonoU Phid
AnkhSligh
White Wennie
Suicide Black
Goblin Sligh

Decks that will restructure:

TnT
Keeper
Mask
Tog
Grow
U/r Phid
Void

     While some of these will change to include the Berserks, others will have to deal with it being unrestricted.  You will see Moat making a return to the maindeck of Keeper and possibly Parfait, as well as other spot removal cards in Keeper reverting back into StPs.  Maze of Ith will most assuredly be making a return to many maindecks.  And possibly the wide-spread use of Cursed Totem as a sideboard card.  Black decks that are hoping to compete will also have to pack Planer Void in their Sideboards.  I also see a few copies of Seedtime making it into the Sideboards of many a deck playing Cunning Wish, the Tog decks above all others.
     I think the meta-game will adapt, but that will not lessen the impact on the lesser Aggro-decks.  Sure, many of them will gain ground on control decks, with them needing to run more StPs maindeck.  But their chances will still be lessened by the newly adapted "Super" Aggro decks.
     Hulk Smash will probably be "the deck to play."  And you will see it being played by everyone who can muster the cards.  I saw Choasdjinn say AGGR03, and I think something along those lines will become a catch phrase for the coming months.

     Above all else I will state that Berserk will most definitely be re-restricted, unless leviat is right and they restrict Gush instead... \n\n

[kl0wn]

I have three words:

WHAT

THE

FUCK

I'm too livid to go into any more detail at this point.

[FeverDog]

@Azhrei

While its true that you and Matt may have realized the fact that the world is full of morons way before i started playing Magic, i still understood the utter stupidity of people at the time. I can clearly remember when i was 12 years old, realizing that i was smarter than most adults i encountered. But anyway, i digress. My main point is that you rarely voice your opinions in such an amusing way, and that i enjoyed it.

I will not make any comments about the B/R list, because anything i have to say has already been echoed by dozens.

[TheDarkLord]

Wizards could have made a poll, as they do for 8th edition reprints, so that all the crowd who never thought about them being so stupid to listen to certain "ideas" could have told something...
I can't believe they don't realise what Berserk can do...
And Gro-a-tog is not even the worst.

[MoreFling]

Then tell me what is worse?

And don't tell me to ph34r stompy.

Picture this:

Tog vs deckX

Tog goes first

Tog goes land, sleight

DeckX goes land

Tog goes Land, Mox, Tog

DeckX goes land, creature

Tog goes brainstorm, Land, make green, Gush, dump some cards, Berserk, Berserk, attack with a huge trampler.

fun !

EDIT: Also, you can have 1 daze, 1 fow backup here.\n\n

[dandan]

MoreFling - that DeckX looks like it'd lose to anything anyway.

While it seems that Tog is a solid deck in Type I (which many, included myself doubted), is giving it 4 Berserks that much worse than giving it 1? Obviously it improves the chance of an early Berserk but presumably at the expense of some of the support cards that fill the graveyard and find the counters to protect the Tog in the first place. Time will tell. Shame I'm not intelligent enough to know already, I can't foresee how other decks will react to this.

I do predict seeing Stompy decks in the newbie area with 20+ pump spells      

[Terevaune]

UNrestricting berserk was nuts.  I have my groatog deck, and the only power I have is ancestral, plus 1 berserk and duals.  In about 10 games since I built the deck this sunday, I have done 32, 22 and  24 damage turn 3, and 74 damage turn 4.  This was with one berserk (usually cast multiple times) and the only mana accel as fastbond.  Anyone who thinks the card is not broken has never played with/against it.  Granted these were god hands, but still...

[Puschkin]

The only positive about this is the following:
In about three months Berzerk will either be restricted again or all crying was in vain. In both cases we can stop thoerizing because the thingy is prooved.

I still remember the very old discussions on BD regarding this unrestriction and haven´t changed my mid since then. Berzerk has just way too much potential. Potential, folks. It doesn´t matter if the current metagame can take a certain card unrestricted as long as the card has too much potential, cause every card printed could abuse that potential. And I dare to say that Tog will get the main focus but won´t be the only problem card. As Azhrei said, doubling number for just one mana should ring a bell, and the argument "but any spotremoval stops it" never appealed to me.

Sorry if I now sound like one of those bastards that only raise their voice after something happened a la "Ha! I knew it!". But in this case I just have to. I was never taken for serious when it came down to things like this and I was ridiculed because I wanted to stay things like Berzerk, Black Vise and Workshop restricted. Regarding Workshop, note that I admit that it was healthy up to some point to have 4 Workshops and associated decks around. But at that point, when it was still unrestricted, nobody could even imagine that it was useful, all they could see was an improved bluebased Tubbies which nobody feared.
I say, TnT is not the end of Workshop´s evolution. It proved again that it is borderline broken. The current meta can handle it but its close.

Sorry for this rambling but I somewhat enjoyed my little revenge. Please go on with your discussion.

[Rando]

Although I am a scrub and a loser, I just want to go on public record as saying I knew better.

From my letter to Forsythe:

Quote You will probably receive letters on this subject that suggest that the cards Black Vice and Berserk be unrestricted.

Black Vice is a vicious card that should never be taken off the restricted list. It's not powerful enough to warrant a full ban, but is evil none the less. Obviously anyone lobbying for it's removal does not remember the days of having to play against a deck with 4 Vices.

Berserk, on the other hand would be a great card to have 4 of and would be a huge boost to aggressive decks like Stompy and Zoo. Unfortunately, the creatures Quirian Dryad and Psychotog spoil the fun. An unrestricted Berserk would only make the so-called "gro" decks better, and these decks continue to see fast development and a growing player base. It's too bad, but a blue based aggro-control deck with these two creatures would just be too good, I think.

He quoted my opinion on Black Vice in his article. (I think I was the only non-good The Mana Drain player quoted) but obviously they didn't get  many opinions on Berserk like mine.

jp

[Nevyn]

Yes they did. They had made up their minds long before the article, though.

[Zherbus]

Blah blah blah blah closed.

Tin Man, you had a heart all along!


edt. Azhrei