Mirrodin Cards in Vintage

[Bastian]

At first I just considered the possibility of having Workshops to pump at a Chalice at 3. But when you remember that there are moxes and Mana Drain for control to use... perhaps the chalice won't just see play in workshop decks.

[leakycow]

Quote Quote  
How can tog win if you set chalice at three?

Steve  


It just can't, which is pretty scary. The new chalice will probably have some type of control deck built around it.

Shallow Grave main?

As an aside, and sorry to be off topic, when I first glanced through the spoiler, I noticed many artists that didn't have immediate name recognition to me.  When I was actually looking at the cards themselves, things didn't seem so bad.  I was really expecting a lot more art reflective of some sort of fantasy-meets-robotech mindset.\n\n

[urza's child]

Quote (Bastian @ Sep. 12 2003,07:05)At first I just considered the possibility of having Workshops to pump at a Chalice at 3. But when you remember that there are moxes and Mana Drain for control to use... perhaps the chalice won't just see play in workshop decks.

The thing with ALL control decks, lots of their cards (wish, intuition, tog, trenches, twister, phid, etc) are ALL cc of 3. So for this to stop tog in a control deck (tog will be its main use IMO) it would also stop the control deck also, unless keeper went back to morphlings (but still no wish) or phid didnt use phids. I can only see this being used in wMUD sideboards, or sideboards of masque and stuff decks, decks that have trouble with sligh. I cant think of a deck other than workshop decks that can run this to completely stop tog and not shut itself down. Post-sideboard there are answers to this, but i still love this card. I think it has lots of potential in many decks, but only as sideboard cards. Chrome mox on the other hand i dont like, and i personally find bad. rule of law is amazing, i find its white's stop to combo decks. I thought G's plow was supposed to be in this set?  

[Bastian]

Now white has Rule of Law, True Believer and access to the ever so famous Null Rod. White's getting better at wrecking combo on its own, little by little.

[Mellow D]

The site that Bastian posted is down at the moment.  The full spoiler is now available on mtgnews w/o most of the pictures.

[thorme]

Quote (Kerzkid11 @ Sep. 12 2003,03:59)

Quote How can tog win if you set chalice at three?

Steve

It just can't, which is pretty scary. The new chalice will probably have some type of control deck built around it.

I don't find it scary at all.  Thats a price you pay for building a deck with zero maindeck creature removal, zero maindeck enchantment removal, and zero maindeck artifact removal.

Cunning Wish allows you to vastly increase your flexibility and remove dead cards from your maindeck.  It's nice to see that flexibility now comes with a price....that price being susceptibility to Chalice.

[VideoGameBoy]

Mind's Eye 5
Artifact
Whenever an opponent would draw a card, you may pay 1. If you do, you draw a card also.
#205

Not only is this a multiplayer bomb, it looks like the flip side of Future sight, albeit easier to cast - especially with Drain mana.

[Bastian]

But in the worst case scenario you can always pitch Future Sight to FoW and you don't need to pay mana to it to draw cards. Couldn't Liar's Pendulum be more efficient?

[Radagast]

Sculpting Steel 3
Artifact
When Sculpting Steel comes into play, it becomes a copy of any artifact in play
#238

That looks... usable.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Bastian @ Sep. 12 2003,08:29)But in the worst case scenario you can always pitch Future Sight to FoW and you don't need to pay mana to it to draw cards. Couldn't Liar's Pendulum be more efficient?

Liar's Pendulum is a 50/50 shot - sure it's neat, but don't expect to draw a card every turn.  It's better than Scrying Glass simply because of how cheap it is, but not by much.

Think about it some more, Bastian; it's strictly superior to Jayemdae Tome and Urza's Blueprints.  Not that I am advocating this tactic, but you can also negate the drawback of Howling Mine and Words of Wisdom.

@Radagast

There is also the red Tinker - which is a spell version of Goblin Welder's ability.\n\n

[Milton]

Quote Quote  
How can tog win if you set chalice at three?

Steve  


It just can't, which is pretty scary. The new chalice will probably have some type of control deck built around it.

Conter the six casting cost challice.  It's six fucking mana.  Jesus, let's keep this in perspective.  It's hardly broken.

[Ocifer]

Actually, the Chalice seems a lot more effective when set at numbers 2 and below, which any good Workshop deck can easily get on turn 1. If set to 0 the Chalice will wreck most fast combo decks and Stacker variants by destroying any chance of early mana. If set at 1 the Chalice will destroy all traditional Aggro decks by shutting down 50-75% of their threat cards. When set to 2 the Chalice will disrupt almost all control decks by shutting of Counterspell, Mana Drain, AK, Timewalk... the list goes on, but it definetely hurts. And as stated, if you get one off for 3 you may as well kiss Tog's ass goodbye.
If workshops actually manage to stay unrestricted I think the Chalice and the Goblin Charbelcher, along with a few other choice artifacts, could bring in a very harsh new variant of Stacker. And I can't see that variant having very many bad matchups at all.
Honestly, I think this set is bringing a slew of restrictions with it, otherwise we're in for a very Urza-esque Winter.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Quote  
Quote  
How can tog win if you set chalice at three?

Steve  

Quote
It just can't, which is pretty scary. The new chalice will probably have some type of control deck built around it.  


Conter the six casting cost challice.  It's six fucking mana.  Jesus, let's keep this in perspective.  It's hardly broken.

I can see two decktypes getting Chalice out early even with the 6 cc - Workshop and Sui/Void.  Really,running Black Lotus, Mox Jet, and Dark Ritual in conjunction with the new Chrome Mox, I can see a lot of acceleration happening.   I really want to wait on doing any testing with Sui/Void for now because I'm just waiting for the pre-emptive restriction on Chrome Mox.

[Milton]

Quote I can see two decktypes getting Chalice out early even with the 6 cc - Workshop and Sui/Void.  Really,running Black Lotus, Mox Jet, and Dark Ritual in conjunction with the new Chrome Mox, I can see a lot of acceleration happening.   I really want to wait on doing any testing with Sui/Void for now because I'm just waiting for the pre-emptive restriction on Chrome Mox.

The odds of six early mana (by turn one or two) are lower than the odds that Hulk will draw a Force of Will to counter the Challice.  I'm not saying it's impossible, you do see a turn one or turn two Triskellion now and again, but it's very unlikley to resolve against Hulk.  Certianly not enough to make "Challice for three" a playable way to beat Hulk.  

Many of you are getting a little carried away.  Most of these cards seem very, very balanced.  Others, like the Scepter, seem to be "win more" cards, like Planar Portal.  I'm just trying to get us all to calm down a little and let things play out.

That said, the Mox should be restricted in T1 as soon as the cards are legal for tournament play.  

Also, I wonder what the value of the Mox will be?  It should have some important T2 playablity, but I remember the Stronghold pre-release where Mox Diamonds were selling for $70 or $80.  The price fell to probabally around $15-25 a few weeks later and stayed at that level when the Diamond was T2 legal.  From a collectors standpoint, it will be very interesting to see what will happen at the pre-releases and in the week or two after the release of the set in regards to the value of this card.\n\n

[Bastian]

Oh wait, I misread Pendulum. I thought he had to PICK a card from your hand and if it wasn't the card he had picked you drew a card. I was wrong! This card is downright awful since after guessing the card he'll know everything you have in hand except for the card you draw.

It's worse than I thought it was. Getting a card every turn from this would be too good, wouldn't it:D

As for Chalice... a colorless card that can shutdown entire decks just by paying two or four mana is already bad enough. Expect Workshop to be restricted. Or the Chalice... if not even both. The problem is that until that actually happens, and as Ocifer said, we're in for some heavy combo winter-esque time...

I don't think the restrictions are a matter of "if" but rather "when" are they going to take place.\n\n

[Radagast]

Spellweaver Helix
3
Artifact
Imprint - When spellweaver Helix comes into play, you may remove two target sorcery cards in a single graveyard from the game
Whenever a card is played, if it has the same name as one of the imprinted sorcery cards, you may copy the other and play the copy without paying its mana cost.
#247

I knew there was a way to abuse this card the moment I saw it.

Here it is: Cast Intuition for 3x Burning Wish. You can figure out the rest. (For those of you who can't, you Imprint the two unchosen Wishes on the Helix, and then you have infinite Wishes, starting with the one in your hand. I'll leave it to you to come up with something abusive from there. Hint: Time Walk.)\n\n

[Jebus]

Quote (Radagast @ Sep. 12 2003,11:16)Spellweaver Helix
3
Artifact
Imprint - When spellweaver Helix comes into play, you may remove two target sorcery cards in a single graveyard from the game
Whenever a card is played, if it has the same name as one of the imprinted sorcery cards, you may copy the other and play the copy without paying its mana cost.
#247

I knew there was a way to abuse this card the moment I saw it.

Here it is: Cast Intuition for 3x Burning Wish. You can figure out the rest. (For those of you who can't, you Imprint the two unchosen Wishes on the Helix, and then you have infinite Wishes, starting with the one in your hand. I'll leave it to you to come up with something abusive from there. Hint: Time Walk.)

I'm sorry, you lost me.  How does this create infinite Wishes.  I just don't see it.

[Bastian]

I know this isn't the right mill, but since we're talking about Mirrodin, a question... Null Rod prevents me from using equipment to equip my creatures, right?

[Jebus]

Quote (Bastian @ Sep. 12 2003,11:36)I know this isn't the right mill, but since we're talking about Mirrodin, a question... Null Rod prevents me from using equipment to equip my creatures, right?

Correct.  Equip is an activated ability as outlined below:

502.33a Equip is an activated ability of artifact Equipment cards. The phrase "Equip [cost]" means "[cost]: Move this Equipment onto target creature you control. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery."

[Mellow D]

Quote
Spellweaver Helix
3
Artifact
Imprint - When spellweaver Helix comes into play, you may remove two target sorcery cards in a single graveyard from the game
Whenever a card is played, if it has the same name as one of the imprinted sorcery cards, you may copy the other and play the copy without paying its mana cost.
#247

I knew there was a way to abuse this card the moment I saw it.

Here it is: Cast Intuition for 3x Burning Wish. You can figure out the rest. (For those of you who can't, you Imprint the two unchosen Wishes on the Helix, and then you have infinite Wishes, starting with the one in your hand. I'll leave it to you to come up with something abusive from there. Hint: Time Walk.)

Quote
I'm sorry, you lost me.  How does this create infinite Wishes.  I just don't see it.

I believe it's because if you have two Burning Wishes imprinted, and one in your hand, you can play one (which matches one of the Wishes on the Helix), and you get to play a copy of the other Burning wish on the Helix for free.  Thus, you can wish for one sorcery + Burning Wish (the second sorcery) again.  It's kinda like the Cunning Wish/Mirari combo in Type 2 Wake decks.

[BillTheDuck]

I dont think that works because when you put the fake wish on the stack its not "playing" so it wouldn't trigger the other one.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Mind's Eye 5
Artifact
Whenever an opponent would draw a card, you may pay 1. If you do, you draw a card also.
#205

Not only is this a multiplayer bomb, it looks like the flip side of Future sight

Wow, that is one of the worst analogies I've ever seen.  The difference between drawing a card and playing a spell is not a subtlety.


I also think that a chalice set at x=2 is the most devastating, at least against control, mostly since the efficient artifact hosers usually cost 2 (rack and ruin & energy flux being exceptions).

As for the burning wish recursion loop, that would be formidable, especially in a tog-esque deck that runs burning wish.  You already have the intuition, and the tog can remove time walk, demonic tutor, merchant scroll, or whatever infinitely so that you can burning wish it back in.

Of course all of this depends on the point billtheduck brought up.

[Dante]

Quote (Milton @ Sep. 12 2003,12:44)The odds of six early mana (by turn one or two) are lower than the odds that Hulk will draw a Force of Will to counter the Challice.  I'm not saying it's impossible, you do see a turn one or turn two Triskellion now and again, but it's very unlikley to resolve against Hulk.  Certianly not enough to make "Challice for three" a playable way to beat Hulk.  

Many of you are getting a little carried away.  Most of these cards seem very, very balanced.

True, the odds are, by the time you cast it, they have a good shot to either have a Force or Drain + 2 blue.  But don't forget that Hulk will still have to counter things like welder, sphere of resistance, smokestack.  It's just one more bomb.  Having 6 mana on turn 2-4 in welder MUD is expected (if you're not going to, you probably should have mulliganed).  So it's not, by itself, that big of a deal, but there are enough must-counter cards in wMUD for Hulk that this just adds to them.  Whether the card (Chalice) is actually worth playing maindeck still remains to be seen (ah testing).

But I agree, I think the set overall is balanced, with some good playable cards.  It definitely puts the emphasis on artifacts and artifact removal/hate.. and there is probably something broken out there begging to be brought to light...

dante

[Jebus]

Quote (Mellow D @ Sep. 12 2003,11:54)

Quote
Spellweaver Helix
3
Artifact
Imprint - When spellweaver Helix comes into play, you may remove two target sorcery cards in a single graveyard from the game
Whenever a card is played, if it has the same name as one of the imprinted sorcery cards, you may copy the other and play the copy without paying its mana cost.
#247

I knew there was a way to abuse this card the moment I saw it.

Here it is: Cast Intuition for 3x Burning Wish. You can figure out the rest. (For those of you who can't, you Imprint the two unchosen Wishes on the Helix, and then you have infinite Wishes, starting with the one in your hand. I'll leave it to you to come up with something abusive from there. Hint: Time Walk.)

Quote
I'm sorry, you lost me.  How does this create infinite Wishes.  I just don't see it.

I believe it's because if you have two Burning Wishes imprinted, and one in your hand, you can play one (which matches one of the Wishes on the Helix), and you get to play a copy of the other Burning wish on the Helix for free.  Thus, you can wish for one sorcery + Burning Wish (the second sorcery) again.  It's kinda like the Cunning Wish/Mirari combo in Type 2 Wake decks.

The problem is, the copy resolves before the original, so you would need a Burning Wish to Fetch from outside the game already.

Fetching on of the Imprinted cards will ruin the combo, so you need a fourth wish in your sideboard or removed from game zone.

Then you can go nuts.

[Jebus]

Quote (BillTheDuck @ Sep. 12 2003,11:57)I dont think that works because when you put the fake wish on the stack its not "playing" so it wouldn't trigger the other one.

Actually, by the posted wording, you ARE playing the copy.

So this might actually trigger itself over and over again like that.

I'll have to consult with some others on this.\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

If it does, than couldn't you generate infinite damage with just 3 chain lightnings?

[Jebus]

Quote (Jacob Orlove @ Sep. 12 2003,12:30)If it does, than couldn't you generate infinite damage with just 3 chain lightnings?

Seems that way.  I'm double checking with a few other Judges and learned rules gurus for their opinion.

EDIT:  After consulting with another judge I noticed it only triggers when a Card is played.  So a copy will not cause the spell to trigger again.

However, you can do the Burning Wish trick I described in my earlier post provided you have a fourth wish removed from the game.\n\n

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote The odds of six early mana (by turn one or two) are lower than the odds that Hulk will draw a Force of Will to counter the Challice.  I'm not saying it's impossible, you do see a turn one or turn two Triskellion now and again, but it's very unlikley to resolve against Hulk.  Certianly not enough to make "Challice for three" a playable way to beat Hulk.  

Keep in mind that Workshop won't ever solely rely on Chalice to beat Hulk.  It will be throwing out must-counters left and right, and this one can be a game ender if it resolves right there and then.  With a deck like Sui, you're disrupting the crap out of Hulk before you drop a bomb anyway, so you shouldn't have to worry about it being countered if you play things right.

[Mellow D]

Quote
Seems that way.  I'm double checking with a few other Judges and learned rules gurus for their opinion.

EDIT:  After consulting with another judge I noticed it only triggers when a Card is played.  So a copy will not cause the spell to trigger again.

However, you can do the Burning Wish trick I described in my earlier post provided you have a fourth wish removed from the game.

... which makes the strategy incredibly narrow and easy to disrupt.  Well, we'll have to find something else to break now.

[Lupo]

After looking at the full spoiler, I have to say, I have not been this excited about magic in a long long time.  There are so many cards that are going to chance so many archtypes.  Nothing is going to be the same.  Yes, there will have to be many many restrictions, but there is so much meat to the set, I think it is a geat thing and want to, probably for the first time, congratulate wizards on printing powerful cards but not stupidly powerful ones (Yag WIll)

I almost do not even know where to begin building...