Mirrodin Cards in Vintage

[erik]

That's how I feel about the chalice as well, a great Sligh/Stompy/etc. hoser that comes out on turn one with any mox. Chalice set at 3 or more is a pipe dream in any non-workshop deck, so any hopes of this being a Hulk hoser are not realistic. Against combo it's strong but like other hosers you better draw it in your opening hand and go first if it's going to have any impact. And even then, like VGB said, the spells can still be used for storm upping. It's inferior to Null rod as a weapon against combo imo.

[Tindemans]

Quote (Smmenen @ Sep. 15 2003,01:01)What I'm interested in is seeing how the field will cope with Chalice of the Void.  I think this will be the most used card in the set.  Instead of helping budget decks, I see this as a budget hoser.  People with moxen benefit by being able to play it on turn one with one counter on it.  The card punishes efficiency by hosing decks with monolithic mana curves.  The rich get richer...

Steve

yeah it can be a budget-hoser, but also a budget hoser.

while Mox players can play it fast to kill most of the budget-decks cards, the budget decks can play this immediatly on zero, to get rid of the fast mana.

[Bastian]

I still prefer Null Rod. If I find myself against Powder Keg, Masticore or Triskelion this isn't going to help me at all. Besides I can stop artifact mana from being used the time Null Rod hits the table while Chalice of the Void's has to come in as soon as possible to prevent the spells from being used. If you don't draw it before they draw their mana it's as good as nothing!

If 2, 4 or 6 mana are used to pump it up it can shut down entire decks. It's horribly broken when you see it like that and, like Azhrei said, the card NEEDS TO BE RESTRICTED.

[Smmenen]

While your certainly right that it can be a tool for budget decks to hose power decks, of the "big three": Tog, Mud, and Long, only Long is totally hosed by Chalice.   Tog and Mud both have diverse mana curves and so the full potency of Chalice won't be immediatly visited upon them.

I forsee a radical shakeup of the tier structure with the introduction of Chalice.

I see Tog getting relatively stronger with Long essentially leaving the format. It's not that Long will suck, its just that it won't be worth it anymore - with some matchups dicey already.  Welder Mud obviously gets stronger, even against Tog.  But I think Keeper comes back for more.  Keeper has a very diverse mana curve as well and isn't hosed by chalice as much.  I think Chalice really hurts Bargain based combo decks as well who just want to get bargain into play and then combo out this turn or the next.  Now they can't play moxen to accellerate out, and so they are slightly slower.  With Long hosed, Dragon gets slightly stronger as a combo/control deck.  

Despite the hit that I think Long is really going to take, I'd like to see that sort of environment emerge.

For those who say that long can answer Chalice, they are right.  BUT, it really takes its toll.  A chalice on the board might as well be the same thing as a loss becuase it has slowed the game down enough that the other decks can win.  And agianst a prison deck, if chalice slows down the game at all, Long will have enormous pressure to recover as lock spell after lock spell is played.  

I think the net effect of Chalice is going to be to strengthen Workshop, but not absolutely break it, and to seriously harm combo.   Both these things are good, I think.  

Steve\n\n

[Bastian]

You have not mentioned any of the cheap competitive decks in type 1 that run on a low mana curve. A card that's good against several decks is nice. One that can turn several decktypes unviable is not.

Workshop decks may not become as grossly overpowered as gro-a-tog was, for example. Once Mark Rosewater wrote an article about how expensive it is to play type 1, and there was a reply to him in which he made another article showing how cheap are the cards needed to make a cheap competitive deck that can run with the fully powered decks around the format.

Is it acceptable that a single card can ruin that? And even vs other decks... Getting a turn 1 Chalice set for 2 is very easy for workshop decks and it can hurt bad many control decks. I think the card will make workshop decks dominant enough to warrant its restriction.\n\n

[Smmenen]

It depends, as always.  I'm not starting from the assumption that its better to have more viable decks, or that there must be viable budget decks.  I want there to be sufficient variety that people can pick and choose from at least a few options a deck that they like.  However, I wouldn't say that budget decks must be viable.  In fact, I woudn't mind if aggro wasn't played at all.  A format of Prison, Combo, and Control would be a formidable triangle of archetypes that I would be perfectly happy with.  I guess the point I'm making is, Aggro doesn't have to exist for type one to be good right now.  There are sufficiently diverse decks without aggro as part of the equation.  Even each control and combo deck is totally different.  

I have never really considered budget decks part of competitive type one.  Type One is almost definitionally anti-thetical to the budget idea.  I test against budget decks becuase people play them.  If a budget deck ever makes it to the tier one, then it is becuase it is so powerful that adding power either adds little to the deck or actually detracts.  Such a scenario is hard to imagine.  

The point I was making is that at first blush Chalice seems like a power hoser, hurting people who play moxen, etc.  However, what it is, is a new tool for power decks to hose cheap aggro as well as combo.  It's just another example of a card that is better in a more expensive deck.\n\n

[Bastian]

I consider less and less budget decks a reality in type 1, and I accept that. It's a format that has a steep entry price, and one that I would gladly afford if I could to, but I can't!

A good format is one where as many decks as possible are viable. Some more, some less but all a viable possibility against which to be prepared. The moment budget decks are all together unviable because others became too strong many players will quit, not to mention the decrease of popularity of type 1.

With the access to the format made even harder, the decrease of the format's popularity and the decrease of the people playing it, then Chalice might just be the first nail in type 1's coffin.

[Smmenen]

My problem with generalizations like your comment "you consider the format best when it has as many viable decks as possible."   Depending on what you mean by that, you might prefer to have 15 equally good decks in the tier one.

I think that would be an atrocity for several reasons.  First of all, it would indicate that the format is not understood enough.  No format can support 15 best decks.  It means that something is terribly wrong.  It means that people are testing and tuning, and there isn't enough innovation.  It means the format is stagnant and it just plain wouldn't make sense.  I think there is a maximum number of best decks that is probably 4.  

I really don't know what to say about type one's popularity.  I want more people to play type one, but while budget decks might be viable, I don't ever see them being the best deck.  We need more poeple testing power decks, not less.  But what type one really needs is people playing with power.  

I think a good solution is to alllow type one players to use proxies in sanctioned events.  But I don't think we can make decisions with regard to the banned and restricted list with reference to budget deck viability.

Steve

[Bastian]

Quote "you consider the format best when it has as many viable decks as possible."

Quote I think that would be an atrocity for several reasons.  First of all, it would indicate that the format is not understood enough.  No format can support 15 best decks.

I said "viable decks", not "best decks". The difference is that you are assuming viability with being good. Suicide Black or Sligh are viable enough in certain metagames, even if such metagames are filled with fully powered decks. In the top 8 of the Vintage Worlds you have a sligh deck that could have been easily played without no power at all and quite probably done just as well.

This is the kind of examples I was talking about when talking about budget decks being good and viable enough even in fully powered environments.

Quote I want more people to play type one, but while budget decks might be viable, I don't ever see them being the best deck.

Everyone's aware that budget decks aren't the best but some of them are viable, because they can show up, make a good appearance and even sometimes win.

Quote But what type one really needs is people playing with power.  

I completely agree with you on this, but unless proxies are allowed on tourneys or they are thinking about reprinting power that's not going to happen. There's a limited ammount of power, even if there are people willing to sell their cards. Type 1 would be a great format if everyone had access to power, and I'd love to see that, but no one expects that to happen and that's why I'm defending the viability of budget decks so much.

It's hard to get power, not everybody has it or can get it and people without it have to play without it or not play at all.

Quote I think a good solution is to alllow type one players to use proxies in sanctioned events.  

Ditto, I don't have much faith in it but it would make me very happy if it was possible:)

Quote But I don't think we can make decisions with regard to the banned and restricted list with reference to budget deck viability.

Perhaps I have been expressing myself too confusingly. On one hand I want for budget decks to be viable. I think they should be because not everyone has power.
My problem isn't if budget decks are hosed by the Chalice, although I admit I have been focusing too much on that.

I may be wrong, but I believe the Chalice can become too good in workshop decks and that set at 1 or 2 it can hose many decks, budget or not.

At 1 it can completely stop Sligh.
At 2 it can stop Hulk Smash, Suicide Black, other control decks.
At 3 it completely stops Hulk Smash and assorted control decks.

I won't say anything more about the Chalice. I'll wait to see how it turns out. Perhaps I'm wrong. I hope I am.

[xrobx]

Quote
Isochron Scepter
2
Artifact
Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.) 2, T: you may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

this is another card with abusable potential.  mana drain, ancestral recall, swords to plowshares, and the list just gets longer.

i'd have to say that this is one of the strongest cards i've yet seen in this set.  its basically (for monoU players):

Freecounter!
Artifact             2
2,T: Counter target spell.

or as mentioned, could be used with insane card drawing (i.e. resolving it with an ancestral) or even StP, edicts, FoF, etc. etc...

think about the fun things it could also do...things that untap lands...even capsize would be fun. 2 cc instead of 6 is alright by me.

but yeah, mainly i was thinking this would own in monoU decks, namely (possibly?) gayfish...i'm still going to be dumping my hand fast, this just gives me the ability to pitch my FoW to the artifact and not have to wait for my opponent to play something (i.e. saving a FoW, and possibly a MisD).  i'm not sure what'd get cut, but just think of the possibilties here.

[Magimaster]

Quote (xrobx @ Sep. 14 2003,22:21)

Quote
Isochron Scepter
2
Artifact
Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.) 2, T: you may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

this is another card with abusable potential.  mana drain, ancestral recall, swords to plowshares, and the list just gets longer.

i'd have to say that this is one of the strongest cards i've yet seen in this set.  its basically (for monoU players):

Freecounter!
Artifact             2
2,T: Counter target spell.

or as mentioned, could be used with insane card drawing (i.e. resolving it with an ancestral) or even StP, edicts, FoF, etc. etc...

think about the fun things it could also do...things that untap lands...even capsize would be fun. 2 cc instead of 6 is alright by me.

but yeah, mainly i was thinking this would own in monoU decks, namely (possibly?) gayfish...i'm still going to be dumping my hand fast, this just gives me the ability to pitch my FoW to the artifact and not have to wait for my opponent to play something (i.e. saving a FoW, and possibly a MisD).  i'm not sure what'd get cut, but just think of the possibilties here.

read the card

[Shade]

Wow!  What a set!

I've been away from the game for a few months now, and only checked out the Mirrodin spoiler out of curiosity.  Little did I realize that I would be staring at arguably the best T1 set since Saga!

One thing I haven't noticed anybody mention yet is that Chrome Mox may be the reason that Entomb was restricted.  The Mox's disadvantage (the discard) is turned into an advantage in reanimator, and accelerates the mana production to boot!

Chalice of the Void is stupid good.  A free method of shutting down Lotus, Moxen, ZOrb, etc. for ANY deck!  Budget players (me) rejoice!

Isochron's Scepter is like a much improved Mirari.

This set has ridiculous potential.  I can't wait to see it in action!

[Mellow D]

Quote
Chalice of the Void is stupid good.  A free method of shutting down Lotus, Moxen, ZOrb, etc. for ANY deck!  Budget players (me) rejoice!

As pointed out previously, a Chalice with 1 or 2 counters on it would shut down good portions of Budget decklists (Gobbos, Fish, Sui).

[Shade]

Quote (Mellow D @ Sep. 16 2003,12:28)

Quote
Chalice of the Void is stupid good.  A free method of shutting down Lotus, Moxen, ZOrb, etc. for ANY deck!  Budget players (me) rejoice!

As pointed out previously, a Chalice with 1 or 2 counters on it would shut down good portions of Budget decklists (Gobbos, Fish, Sui).

True.  You've just got to find a new (or modified) budget deck that can take full advantage of this.  Being able to negate power decks' advantage of mana acceleration for free is well worth some testing and tweaking.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Shade @ Sep. 16 2003,13:06)One thing I haven't noticed anybody mention yet is that Chrome Mox may be the reason that Entomb was restricted.  The Mox's disadvantage (the discard) is turned into an advantage in reanimator, and accelerates the mana production to boot!

I would like to refer you to a thing I call "the card's text":

Chrome Mox
Artifact Rare
0
Artifact
Imprint - When Chrome Mox comes into play, you may remove a nonartifact, nonland card in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact) T: Add one mana of any of the imprinted cards colors to your mana pool.

Quote  Being able to negate power decks' advantage of mana acceleration for free is well worth some testing and tweaking.

And being able to negate a budget deck's entire deck is much better.  

This is not a budget card people.  A budget deck can do what?  Stop a few Moxen, assuming they're going first?  A Workshop deck will cast it and break bones.

[Shade]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Sep. 16 2003,14:03)

Quote (Shade @ Sep. 16 2003,13:06)One thing I haven't noticed anybody mention yet is that Chrome Mox may be the reason that Entomb was restricted.  The Mox's disadvantage (the discard) is turned into an advantage in reanimator, and accelerates the mana production to boot!

I would like to refer you to a thing I call "the card's text":

Chrome Mox
Artifact Rare
0
Artifact
Imprint - When Chrome Mox comes into play, you may remove a nonartifact, nonland card in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact) T: Add one mana of any of the imprinted cards colors to your mana pool.

Quote  Being able to negate power decks' advantage of mana acceleration for free is well worth some testing and tweaking.

And being able to negate a budget deck's entire deck is much better.  

This is not a budget card people.  A budget deck can do what?  Stop a few Moxen, assuming they're going first?  A Workshop deck will cast it and break bones.

My bad about the Chrome Mox.  I completely misread that.

As I said, I've been out for a while.

And as for the Chalice, I'm thinking of more of a budget control deck.  It negates most of a powered control deck's advantage, and crushes cheap creature decks.

[Godder]

Entomb for Platinum Angel would be annoying, and imprinting an Entomb on the Sceptre is also a nice use for the card with flashback, for example.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Shade @ Sep. 16 2003,15:09)And as for the Chalice, I'm thinking of more of a budget control deck.  It negates most of a powered control deck's advantage, and crushes cheap creature decks.

Even if it does work fine there, so what?  How will it compete against a Workshop deck packing Chalice?

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Sep. 16 2003,15:33)

Quote (Shade @ Sep. 16 2003,15:09)And as for the Chalice, I'm thinking of more of a budget control deck.  It negates most of a powered control deck's advantage, and crushes cheap creature decks.

Even if it does work fine there, so what?  How will it compete against a Workshop deck packing Chalice?

To break Chalice, you need to have acceleration so it can come down before your opponent casts the important spells.  If you're running a budget control deck, you're not going to be able to cast Chalice for 1 until turn 2, which means that you could have had possibly 3 1cc spells cast against you first.  Without Workshop, it's probably impossible to get it above X=2.

[Eastman]

Quote To break Chalice, you need to have acceleration so it can come down before your opponent casts the important spells.

It is still a house at 0.

I agree however that it isn't really broken until you put it in a deck with workshops. That doesn't mean it won't be effective in other places however.\n\n

[Bastian]

It's not "broken" at 0. It's very good because it stops moxes, but it won't do so if you don't get it before the opponent starts dropping them.

[Smmenen]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Sep. 16 2003,13:31)

Quote (Rico Suave @ Sep. 16 2003,15:33)

Quote (Shade @ Sep. 16 2003,15:09)And as for the Chalice, I'm thinking of more of a budget control deck.  It negates most of a powered control deck's advantage, and crushes cheap creature decks.

Even if it does work fine there, so what?  How will it compete against a Workshop deck packing Chalice?

To break Chalice, you need to have acceleration so it can come down before your opponent casts the important spells.  If you're running a budget control deck, you're not going to be able to cast Chalice for 1 until turn 2, which means that you could have had possibly 3 1cc spells cast against you first.  Without Workshop, it's probably impossible to get it above X=2.

Without Workshop or Mana Drain would be my qualification.

Steve

[Crater Hellion]

Then it's just like a .. power hoser because it's only going to be cast for 0.\n\n

[Brendan]

Quote (Crater Hellion @ Sep. 17 2003,10:31)Then it's just like a .. power hoser because it's only going to be cast for 0.

And for that role, it's pretty inferior to Null Rod.

[jntemp777]

Quote (Crater Hellion @ Sep. 16 2003,15:31)Then it's just like a .. power hoser because it's only going to be cast for 0.

Workshop will make it hose entire decks.  As people have been saying, this is the card that will restrict Workshop.  IMHO, if you own a lot of Workshops, now may be the time to sell off extra stock.

[David Hernandez]

@J.P.: Actually, i think you will find mono-black players using the Chalice.  With Dark Ritual, it can come out on turn one with a counter on it, and it can be backed up with a Duress or Cabal Therapy to push it through.

--dave

[Rico Suave]

To put it into perspective, Chalice would be "viable" in mono-black but "game-breaking" in Workshop decks.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Actually, i think you will find mono-black players using the Chalice.  With Dark Ritual, it can come out on turn one with a counter on it, and it can be backed up with a Duress or Cabal Therapy to push it through

You do realize that you just mentioned three different 1 cc spells in a deck that is going to set chalice at 1...

Like smennen said, this does seem like a rich get richer card.  However, even if you're going second, if the combo player doesn't think they will go off turn one, they may hold onto 0 cc artifact accelerators until turn 2 in order to increase their storm count.  Its a narrow window, but I think the chalice will fill this nich for unpowered decks against combo.

Can Workshop decks abuse this to much more damaging effect against mono-curve aggro decks, of course.  Hopefully, they restrict workshop decks, if they don't, there are still so few that it shouldn't completely screw up the metagame.

Either way, I think chalice will end up being more like meddling mage (not as even powered, but close) in that it will completely hose narrow decks, but will only be an annoyance to more robust strategies.

[David Hernandez]

@G.I.:

LOL...oh, that's rich!  a friend of mine plays mono-black all the time, and i was thinking about how he would LOVE the Chalice...but you're right, it would stop his Dark Rituals, Duress, V.Tutor, and whatever else.  Duh.  Man, i cant stop laughing about what I said...    

I just gave a whole new meaning to "Suicide Black"!!!

@Rico: Broken with Workshop decks is right-on the money.

Dave.

[whienot]

Yeah, don't forget that the chalice will hurt you too. It isn't something that will just fit in anywhere.