Mirrodin Cards in Vintage

[Browser]

Quote However, you can do the Burning Wish trick I described in my earlier post provided you have a fourth wish removed from the game.

[strike]Is there a rules reason that Imprinted cards must remain in the RFGZ to remain imprinted on their respective cards??

I thought the "Imprinting" was just something that the Imprinted card "remembered".[/strike]

EDIT: Sorry, I just found the little footnote on MaRo's article.\n\n

[Toast]

I honestly don't think there will be that many restrictions. Mox will be, consult will be just on principle...the remainder is just unnessessary. I do think there are some nice cards in the set though.

Chalice I like...when I first read it I actually thought it said x or less are countered and I almost shit my pants. It is still a damn good card and no It shouldn't be restricted because it is easy enough to work around e.g. if I have a mana "curve" instead of "straight line" then all it does is piss me off...I can still counter it or pack hate for it..it just shakes up controls strategy of only using 3 mana spells to find answers.

duplicant and platinum angel are nice toys for TnT.

Scepter is a nice toy for control.

leveler is a horrible yet funny piece of crap that I am tempted to start collecting.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Jebus @ Sep. 12 2003,15:36)

Quote (Jacob Orlove @ Sep. 12 2003,12:30)If it does, than couldn't you generate infinite damage with just 3 chain lightnings?

Seems that way.  I'm double checking with a few other Judges and learned rules gurus for their opinion.

EDIT:  After consulting with another judge I noticed it only triggers when a Card is played.  So a copy will not cause the spell to trigger again.

However, you can do the Burning Wish trick I described in my earlier post provided you have a fourth wish removed from the game.

If you have two Burning Wishes imprinted on the Helix, shouldn't you not need a Wish in your SB?  You can have the copied Wish take a Burning Wish that was imprinted on the Helix off, but since there will still be another Wish imprinted on it, it will still always trigger on the casting of Burning Wish.

[Browser]

I'm seriously doubting Chrome Mox will ever be restricted.  Yes, it's exciting to gain an advantage in mana production.  But the cost of this is much higher than Mox Diamond's.

A spell is a more valuable resource than a land.  There is a limit to the amount of lands that are actually useful in most games.

There are very few times that seeing another spell wouldn't improve your situation.

Besides this cards only really shines in Mono-colored decks.  Keeper will never run these.  They might improve Stax's game...but I don't see them running 4.  They don't run enough colored spells to make these that useful.

Quote If you have two Burning Wishes imprinted on the Helix, shouldn't you not need a Wish in your SB?  You can have the copied Wish take a Burning Wish that was imprinted on the Helix off, but since there will still be another Wish imprinted on it, it will still always trigger on the casting of Burning Wish.

No.  I just checked out the official rules on Imprinting (MaRo's article) and it basically says a card must remain 'imprinted' on another card for it to be seen by the utilizing card.

So when the thing looks for the other spell...there isn't one there and the effect would fail.

So you could take one of the Burning Wishes once.  But the infinite Wishing concept wouldn't work after that.\n\n

[Pimpz0r]

i posted this over on starcity, but i think its more appropriate here.

Second Sunrise
WW1
Instant
Each player returns to play all artifact, creature, enchantment, and land cards that were put into his or her graveyard from play this turn.

i think this could be a very powerful card, if it wasn't white.  the WW1 casting cost makes it very difficult to splash in other decks.  it could see use in parfait, but who plays parfait?

Psychic Membrane
U2
Creature - Wall
(Walls can't attack.) Whenever Psychic Membrane blocks, you may draw a card.
0/3

this could turn into a huge sideboard card for mono-u and urphidian against sligh, but it's 3 toughness makes it easy prey for incenerate, lightning bolt, and chain lightning.

Thoughtcast
U4
Sorcery
Affinity for artifacts (This spell costs 1 less to play for each artifact you control.) Draw two cards.

academy could hugely benefit from this card.  1 blue for 2 cards?  sounds like a deal to me.

Grim Reminder
B2
Instant
Search your library for a nonland card and reveal it. Each opponent who played a card this turn with the same name as that card loses 6 life. Then shuffle the revealed card back into your library. BB: Return Grim Reminder from your graveyard to your hand. Play this ability only during your upkeep.

this card could be amazing in vintage.  most tier 1 decks use 10 or more of the same cards, and this card can really abuse that.  the only only problem i see is a kind of symmetry if your opponent is also using it, and the casting cost of 3 and the black heavy cost of returning it to play could keep it from seeing much use.

Spoils of the Vault
B
Instant
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal the named card, then put that card into your hand. Remove all other cards revealed this way from the game, and you lose 1 life for each of the removed cards.

an instant speed tutor for the card of your choice, as long as you've got the life to pay for it.  some players might consider the life cost too heavy, but if it comes down to stopping your opponent from winning, why not try?

Sylvan Scrying
G1
Sorcery
Search your library for a land card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

another academy tutor?

Chalice of the Void
XX
Artifact
Chalice of the Void comes into play with X charge counters on it. Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on this, counter that spell.

drop it for free, and it stops moxen/lotus, spend 2 and it stops ancestral, swords to plowshares, duress, everything sligh uses, stifle, and lots of other staple cards.  at the 4 mana cost it can stop all kinds of hate.  lots of budget vintage players might start using this card.

Chrome Mox
0
Artifact
Imprint - When Chrome Mox comes into play, you may remove a nonartifact, nonland card in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact) T: Add one mana of any of the imprinted cards colors to your mana pool.

this has to be instantly restricted in vintage.  it is strictly better than mox diamond, and has great synergy with wishes. EDIT: if the imprint ruling is true, then it doesn't have as good of synergy as i thought.  but it's still too good to be un-restricted.

Isochron Scepter
2
Artifact
Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.) 2, T: you may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

this is another card with abusable potential.  mana drain, ancestral recall, swords to plowshares, and the list just gets longer.

Glimmervoid
Land
At end of turn, if you control no artifacts sacrifice Glimmervoid. Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

isn't this better than city of brass, undiscovered paradise, gemstone mine, and thran quarry ever were?

EDIT: yeah...i forgot to edit this one.  im an idiot.  ignore those comments.\n\n

[Zoofields]

Quote  time walk(two card infinite turn combo, anybody?),

Quote Isochron Scepter
2
Artifact
Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant card

Res ipsa loquitor.

[Rico Suave]

I don't get this losing spells to Mox bit.  It's still FREE mana.  Most of the time things go byebye to LED or draw-7's anyway, so why not use the Mox to make things happen a turn faster?  Having extra spells isn't nearly as important if you outrace most of your opponent's spells anyway.

[trojanmickey]

Could Isochron Specter replace Ophidian in as a draw engine?  Sure, it can't block and can't attack (when you need those last points of damage) and costs an extra imprint card.  But it's more easily cast and so easily abusable with Brainstorm, Impulse, Fire/Ice, and Counterspells.  Not to mention the occasional Ancestral Recall. Imprinting any cantrip on it would be sweet.  Just ignore the combat phase entirely, which you can't do with Ophidian.  Tap two end of turn, and get a nice effect to boot.  With counterspells, you've got somewhat a soft lock on your opponent.

[Methuselahn]

It will be interesting to see what mono red and mono black can do with Chrome Mox if left unrestricted.  I think they will be much more competitive in Type 1 tournaments and I think Wizards sees this.

Spoils of the Vault will help those 3-card win-now combos that usually don't cut it.  The Enduring Renewal decks are a perfect example.  My pet deck, Chains-Squee-Anvil lock deck would use it for sure.  Perfect for 4 of's, too risky for restricted cards.\n\n

[Bastian]

Browser seems to be the only one so far who agrees with me so far about Chrome Mox.

Remember Mox Diamond? Is it broken outside decks packing Land Tax? If so, are said decks dominating the metagame or better than the rest of those in the format? Remember that Mox Diamond was a card that many people wanted to see back unrestricted because it could make decks with Land Tax better. It was good in certain combo decks in extended that actually abused the card because they managed to draw into lots of cards. Ex: Trix after Dark Ritual was banned and replaced it with Mox Diamond, or 4-Tolarian Academy decks before academy being banned.

In type 1 neo academy or even trix this doesn't happen because even if these decks are managing to fill their hands they don't have the same power as their original extended/standard counterparts had. In t1 there are other forms of mana acceleration and Mox Diamond is far weaker than them.

Now think about Chrome Mox. Has any deck already sucessfully used and abused more than one copy of the card? Has any deck abused the card to the point it totally changes the metagame in some way like, for example, Gush or Fact or Fiction did?

Before someone actually breaks the card I think all the talk about having it restricted is an overreaction to what is a solid good card.

Quote Most of the time things go byebye to LED or draw-7's anyway, so why not use the Mox to make things happen a turn faster?  Having extra spells isn't nearly as important if you outrace most of your opponent's spells anyway.

And aren't you sacrificing tempo as well if you discard spells from hand? Isn't a paradox that you're trying to play your spells faster by using Chrome Mox at the cost of the spells you're suppose to be playing?

Quote Besides this cards only really shines in Mono-colored decks.  Keeper will never run these.  They might improve Stax's game...but I don't see them running 4.  They don't run enough colored spells to make these that useful.

Are sligh or suicide black really that slow that they actually need Chrome Mox? Are the players willing to remove a spell from hand to play this? Are you going to ditch a Lightning Bolt, Hymn to Tourach or some kind of threat to play this? Those decks don't need it...

I have been testing Chrome Mox in WW. Do you know how many Chrome Moxes do I pack? 1. Getting a couple in your hand when one of them could be a land is already crippling enough because to get them to play you need to remove from the game two spells in your hand. That means that you're dropping FOUR cards from your hand. And I'm just talking about using a couple of them!

The specifications for a deck to successfuly run this have to be:

1) Run just a color, two max.
2) Have lots of card drawing to make up for the loss of card advantage and to be able to imprint Chrome Moxes.

Now a deck that fits this is monoblue control. It has lots of card drawing: Ancestral, Brainstorm, Fact or Fiction, etc... and it uses an immense amount of counterspells, which means that ditching one to have one blue mana early on can make a difference. It means you can play that Mana Drain/Mana Leak/Counterspell one turn earlier.

Now, is this card broken in monoblue control? Hardly. It doesn't provide more advantage than those decks that used a full set of artifact mana- 5 moxes, lotus, ring- to accelerate the deck and be able to cast those more expensive spells sooner. Anyone would consider packing any of those first before actually packing Chrome Mox. So how many of the new mox would see play in this deck? Once again, one or two.

The ONLY kind of decks actually able to break this card and abuse it that I can predict are combo decks. And I mean decks that only use one or two colors. Nowadays combo decks are nearly always 5-color to make full use of several broken draw cards. Are you willing to remove a spell from hand to have a mox that is probably not going to give you the mana of the color you need? And once again, just how many copies are you actually thinking of packing in those decks?

SO FAR I can't see a single deck, not even a single deck that abuse Chrome Mox to the point of becoming broken. If such it may even have the potential the format even more accessible to budget players with no access to the expensive artifact mana of the first sets.

For example: In extended the new mox has a lot more potential to be broken. Mind's Desire decks are essentially monocolored, sometimes packing just a splash of a second color, they can fill the hand and the moxes are free allowing to speed up storm effects. In extended Mind's Desire decks I can predict the new mox becoming broken. In vintage it isn't right now.

Until new cards are thrown to the pool or some horrid deck shows up there's not a single deck able to abuse this card. All I've heard so far is mere speculation but no real results.

In theory I think I'm right. Until I'm proven wrong with actual practical results, calm down and stop talking about restricting this card. Why don't you talk more about restricting Chalice of the Void?\n\n

[Carlos El Salvador]

My two cents on the Chrom Mox:

It is acceleration at the cost of a spell.  This allows you to run less lands (unlike the diamond, which would require more land or ways to get land.)  This is a small, but minor problem.  The only reason I see this card being any good is being able to almost allways go second turn activate Hermit durid for win

[Bastian]

Quote This is a small, but minor problem. The only reason I see this card being any good is being able to almost allways go second turn activate Hermit durid for win

(Am I sensing irony in there?)

Which deck right now uses Hermit Druid's ability for a kill in type 1?

Please people, if you want to prove me wrong you'll have to do better than this. Prove me really wrong with deck results, not comments.

[erik]

"It will only be broken in combo" is not really an argument, because that can be said about half of the restricted list. Of course this won't be good in control, neither is mox diamond or lotus petal. In monochrome aggro, I doubt it's worth it. But in decks like Burning Academy it is clearly too good, and that is the prominent combo deck in vintage atm. That deck runs 11 lands and still plays Mox Diamond, because just like Chrome Mox it's mana acceleration. The cost of imprinting is not much of a drawback in a deck that plays every draw7, necro, bargain and 4 burning wishes. Testing might show that 4 is not the optimal number, but in general combo likes nothing better than being able to replace lands with mana accelerating spells. Then there's storm upping, academy boosting, hiding for future wishes and other specific aspects of this card that will make it a natural fit in Burning Academy, which means a candidate for restriction along with LED in a not too distant future imo...

[Bastian]

You talked a lot, but have proved me nothing. Has Burning Academy proved too powerful so far? Has it been dominating the format? All that I hear is that the format is HEALTHY right now and for a card to be restricted it has to be contributing for a denegerate deck that completely dominates the format. Much like Gush made Gro-a-tog decks so powerful.

Until that happens, it's not worth being restricted. All it takes for the deck to be kept in check is for Burning Wish or LED to be restricted.

Take the example of Mox Diamond. Just how many more would you pack in that deck if you could?\n\n

[Radagast]

Quote Has Burning Academy proved too powerful so far?

That isn't the point. The point is whether it will prove too powerful once it has access to an additional four Moxen. The chances of that are not exactly negligible. And while I agree with you that a card should prove itself broken before being restricted, the DCI only updates the T1 restricted list once every, what, 6 months? Having a dominant combo deck run rampant for that long wouldn't be pleasant. Then again, I would like to give the card a chance. The solution, of course, would be to update the restricted list more often, but the odds of that happening aren't very high.

[Bastian]

Chrome Mox has to prove itself broken, which it hasn't before being restricted. This card isn't exactly like Mind's Desire, you know? Furthermore if the card proved itself too broken it would eventually become restricted, even if it meant be restricted before time.

MtG.com article on banned and restricted cards

If you go to that link you'll see that the banned and restricted announcements are made four times a year: (March 1st, June 1st, September 1st and December 1st) and not once every six months.

Start worrying about Chalice of the Void now. It's an extremely unfair and broken card that shuts down entire strategies and pushes workshop decks over the top. This is the kind of card that deserves restriction.\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote And aren't you sacrificing tempo as well if you discard spells from hand?

In a word, no. You may be sacrificing card advantage, but you're gaining tempo.

Now, I'm not saying that the mox should be restricted immediately, but I do believe that it will be restricted soon after people start using it.

Incidentally, the reason decks don't want more Mox Diamonds is because running four would mean running a bunch of useless land to pitch. The decks arere streamlined without the extra land. Of course, this isn't an issue with the new mox, so there's no reason not to run four in combo decks.

[Crater Hellion]

That's exactly how I feel, and why I think Chrome mox > diamond. You can run more spells as opposed to diamond where you have to run more land. Losing a spell is worse than losing a land, but it's not worse if you have fewer land and more spells to choose from anyway.

[Chen]

Goblin Charbelcher
Artifact Rare
4
Artifact
3, T: Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card. Goblin Charbelcher deals damage equal to the number of nonland cards revealed this way to target creature or player. If the revealed land card was a Mountain, Goblin Charbelcher deals double that damage instead. Put the revealed cards on the bottom of your library in any order.
Artist: Stephen Tappin

Anyone think this could replace Mesa as a win condition for Parfait, or at the very least be another win condition for it? Once you get a tax going, you should be able to remove most if not all your land from the deck. If you leave a single mountain in the deck it almost guarentees a quick kill once its used.

[Brendan]

I'm surprised Grim Reminder is getting so little attention. It looks like one of the best cunning wish targets ever in control on control matchups.

I expect it to be delivering the finishing blow in many tog mirrors once it becomes legal.

[Bastian]

Jacob: when I talked about losing tempo, I mean the disadvantage of removing from the hand spells you would want to otherwise be playing. But I was wrong. You sacrifice a spell, but you gain speed to cast other ones.

Quote The decks arere streamlined without the extra land. Of course, this isn't an issue with the new mox, so there's no reason not to run four in combo decks.

Yes, there is. The mox may not be anything more than an artifact that gives you the mana you don't need. Remember that most combo decks are four or five colors and that to feed the colorless requirements of other spells a full set of jewelry is already enough.

Quote Losing a spell is worse than losing a land, but it's not worse if you have fewer land and more spells to choose from anyway.

Now we're getting there. Now I'm being trully convinced of the need to eventually restrict Chrome Mox, but even before that happens there should be others that should go... like LED for example.

I'm happy that WW doesn't need more than a single Chrome Mox

Chen: I like Goblin Charbelcher. I think it's a great card but one with too much combo potential. Expect it to eventually see restricted some day if it gives birth to some deck around it.

So that leaves us just one thing... Chalice of the Void. Why haven't I seen more talk about how bad(ly broken) this card is? What have you got to say?

[Radagast]

Mostly because you've done everyone else's talking for them, I assume. Another factor is you can build around it by diversifying your mana costs, so while it might completely brutalize current decks, that could easily be not true for the next crop of decks to evolve in response to it. Besides, it's a ridiculously good combo hoser (usable by every color), which isn't a bad thing to have - it might even mean Chrome Mox would get to stay unrestricted.

[Bastian]

Chalice of the Void still shuts down a lot of cheap decks. Suicide Black, Sligh, and, I know you wouldn't count this in, but WW, stompy, even control... Hulk Smash can be easily stopped by a Chalice at the right moment and the ammount of mana that it needs is fairly attainable. For one side I like the card because it's a good replacement to Null Rod for some decks, but on the other side it's too broken and some games might come to be to whoever gets the card first.

[waSP]

Bastian, you have to realize that equipment breaks white weenie in half.  Rancor in WW is amazing.  Mask of Memory also gives you a fair chance of topdecking answers.  Currently working on a build for it (and it doesn't run Chrome Mox).  You have an inferior build of WW as of right now.

Also shush, you're talking too much on this thread.  Tune down your belligerent attitude a little.  You're taking swings at everyone who says something.  I'm glad you are so passionate about the subject of Chrome Mox.  I'm guessing they've already made a decision on whether it will be restricted preemptively.

I'd also like to say that maintaining a healthy format is more important than long term dominance when considering a card's restriction.  Waiting for everyone to adjust to a deck isn't a good thing.  The format gets stale and people quit.  It might drop the price of cards.. but it'll be a negative end result.

I really like Auriok Steelshaper, Knight.dec for life!\n\n

[Bastian]

Lol Wasp, you're right, I'll be more quiet from now on.  

I hope to not have upset anyone so far. All I want to is discuss. I haven't been so excited about a set ever since Apocalypse!

Quote Bastian, you have to realize that equipment breaks white weenie in half.  

I haven't said otherwise, have I?? I'm testing equipment in WW as well right now. I think it might be the kind of card that WW was hoping for all this time. Decent, solid Rancor-esque cards.

Such a great set has come out and I see so little discussion about it... I was wondering if people have actually started to test it, since there seems to be so little movement around here.

Quote I really like Auriok Steelshaper, Knight.dec for life!

You really testing that?\n\n

[Blofeld]

Quote (Chen @ Sep. 13 2003,19:33)Goblin Charbelcher
...

Anyone think this could replace Mesa as a win condition for Parfait, or at the very least be another win condition for it? Once you get a tax going, you should be able to remove most if not all your land from the deck. If you leave a single mountain in the deck it almost guarentees a quick kill once its used.

I think this idea has great promise. It could make Parfait fast enough to compete  Mesa is really good on defense though, Charbelcher can't hold off creatures - Is this too much of a loss ?

Mox Chrome is another card that'll help Parfait a lot. Having artifact mana in this deck is REALLY important - and having it on-color is even better. Tax/Rack draws you enough cards to make up for the card disadvantage. 3-4 of These in the deck would be sweet. It would be possible to play just 12-13 lands - which makes the Charbelcher even better !

[Moxlotus]

Quote (VideoGameBoy @ Sep. 12 2003,10:20)Mind's Eye 5
Artifact
Whenever an opponent would draw a card, you may pay 1. If you do, you draw a card also.
#205

Not only is this a multiplayer bomb, it looks like the flip side of Future sight, albeit easier to cast - especially with Drain mana.

Actually, it is more of the flip side of Mystic Remora. Now how many of you have to go look up what Mystic Remora does? That's about how much it is played and this will be played I think.

Although I have to say, Mystic Remora was an awesome SB card for Fish during GAT dominance.  

[Bastian]

Quote I think this idea has great promise. It could make Parfait fast enough to compete  Mesa is really good on defense though, Charbelcher can't hold off creatures - Is this too much of a loss ?

By the time Parfait gets Mesa on the table it should have achieved control and have enough mana to start using it. Sacred Mesa's disadvantage demands you to at least spend 2WW each turn in order to have a Pegasus in play and another one to sacrifice to Sacred Mesa.

Goblin Charbelcher can come out about the same time Sacred Mesa and it can kill a large fattie or the opponent faster than the time Sacred Mesa takes to make tokens for the same effort. The Mirrodin artifact seems better although I wouldn't take Mesa out either...

[Magimaster]

Quote (Blofeld @ Sep. 14 2003,10:21)

Quote (Chen @ Sep. 13 2003,19:33)Goblin Charbelcher

I think this idea has great promise. It could make Parfait fast enough to compete  Mesa is really good on defense though, Charbelcher can't hold off creatures - Is this too much of a loss ?

Goblin Charbelcher can't hold off creatures. It does something better. It kills them.

[Smmenen]

I am not sure exactly how good Chrome Mox will turn out to be.  I imagine it will be maximized in a combo deck becuase Combo decks tend to have massive draw spells which would  and minimize the pain of having to lose a spell and maximize the benefits of a mana accellerant.  The most dangerous combo decks that I am aware of, Rector, Long, and Dragon are very unlikely to use this card without significant revision.

By contrast, unless the aggro deck is really fast, aggro really needs to maximize each spell cast, and so the Mox's drawback is too painful.

I think the Chrome Mox definately has potential in a Blue heavy Academy build.  Perhaps the Mox asks for a revision on how we think about type one mana bases.  

The new Consult should definately be used in Masknaught.  
So those two decks require revision, among many others.  

What I'm interested in is seeing how the field will cope with Chalice of the Void.  I think this will be the most used card in the set.  Instead of helping budget decks, I see this as a budget hoser.  People with moxen benefit by being able to play it on turn one with one counter on it.  The card punishes efficiency by hosing decks with monolithic mana curves.  The rich get richer...

Steve\n\n