Stacker "4"? - Post Mirrodin

[Ocifer]

After really looking over the Mirrodin spoiler in depth I've started pulling cards that I beleive have the most promise for integration into current T1 decks. First I noticed several cards that truly warrant inclusion into the current Stacker 3 builds.

On a side note, I've also noticed many cards which could find a prominent place in Parfait builds and still several others that are obvious combo-enablers waiting for a deck to break them, but more on these at a later time.

I'll be basing my analysis on the following build, as submitted on these forums.

Stacker 3 - Vise City
      10 Mountain
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        3 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Goblin Welder
        1 Black Vise
        3 Tangle Wire
        3 Ankh of Mishra
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
        3 Triskelion
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
        4 Su-Chi
        4 Juggernaut
        2 Gorilla Shaman

With this build primarily in mind I took particular notice of the following cards from Mirrodin.

Chalice of the Void-
   Wow. I'm not sure that I can say more than I've already said for this card, so I'll just paraphrase myself. Play it for 0 after you drop turn 1 and you'll be the only one with moxen until it leaves play. A sure fire way to slow up any combo or workshop deck. Play it for 2 and you'll kill Sligh, Stompy, most random aggro and to a degree even Suicide. Play it for 4 and you can tell control to kiss your ***, cause they'll lose no less that 1/2 of their utility spells against you. Not to mention no more pesky null rods. And all that on a pretty standard turn 1. By turn 2, if you can drop this for 6, then tog can kiss the game goodbye.

Goblin Charbelcher-
   I love the looks of this card. With the right changes to the mana base and just a little luck this card can be huge damage by turn 2. I can't see very many games going past turn 4 with this active on the board. Hell, with a strong enough turn 1 you could push it over with a Juggy by turn 3 or maybe even 2.

Mindslayer-
   At the very least it's a colorless timewalk (albeit an expensive one) and at the best you can make your opponent cry as you turn his/her entire hand against them.

Thought Prison-
   A colorless duress, with a damage source attached, that can be weldered in and out of play just to make an opponent cry. What could be more fun? I think this card has a place at the table, we'd just have to reconfigure the deck to find that place. Still, it feels like severe beats to me.

Chrome Mox-
   This is where I start hitting on cards that I'm not sure have a place. In stacker 2 this card would be a much finer force, it had much more red to draw on. In this build, it may be sub-optimal. Then again, if we start looking to the past for Bolts and PoP's then this card may well bring the mana base to the right proportions to use the Charbelcher mentioned above.

Solemn Simulcrum-
   A free mountain and a card draw for just 4 mana, and you get a 2/2 body. Almost comes on par with Su-Chi. But not quite. Still an active welder can make this card insane, like so many others. Worthy of a look, but just may not have a place...

Timesifter-
   Free timewalk every turn, as long as your deck has higher mana costs than everyone elses? Not too hard to pull off when you're running a 4-5 mana curve. The only problem being when it backfires on you. Only playtesting can really tell whether this card truly makes the grade for this deck. Definetely an option for consideration.

Lightning Coils-
   I just like the feel of this card. When/if you finally get it to go off, it's almost assuredly 10-15 damage in one fell swoop. Again an active welder can begin to charge this card very quickly. Still, this card reeks of combo and may be just a little too much of that.

Sculpting Steel-
   Copies anything you already have and also helps in those games versus Mud or Stax. This card just needs to fit more of a niche to truly be considered for inclusion.

Myr Incubator-
   Downside: it costs way to freakin much. 6 to play and 6 to activate. Upside: Every one of those useless cards that are just boringly sitting in my library just became a 1/1 creature in play at the end of your turn. God but I wish this card cost less, but it doesn't. Not worthy of inclusion unless you find the right combo to fit around it.

Empyrial Plate-
   Just like the armor, but for 1 more. Except you'll never get 2 for 1-ed on this version. Unfortunately you lack the card drawing to make this as insane as it could be. But pushing that extra 3+ damage in with your juggy could be just fun enough to warrant it. Probably not though.

I'm working on punching out a post-Mirrodin build, but first I wanna wait to see if any cards are pre-emptively restricted. In the meantime, tell me what you think and which truly warrant inclusion. What changes should be made to Stacker after Mirrodin is legal?

[Bastian]

If you need to pump 4/4s and 5/3s to improve your deck then I'd think about droping it. Empyrial Plate is not really good in this deck. Now on White Weenie...  

[MoreFling]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post it, but has anyone with Stacker every considered dropping Ankhs? They don't seem usefull enough, and they would allow you to run 4 fetchies / 4 badlands and play Duress.

[Radagast]

Ocifer: There is a card you are forgetting.

Lightning Greaves
2
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has haste and can't be target of spells or abilities.
Equip 0 (0: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if creature leaves play.)

It effectively gives the first creature you play each turn haste, and makes whatever creature you currently want untargetable. It's like an Anger for 2 colorless with the added benefit of invincible Welders/other things.

[suicide_slushy]

I cut a for Ankhs for Duress quite awhile ago and I've been happy with it.  Ankh just never has the impact you want it to, Duress is just superior disruption.

[Vegeta2711]

Quote I'm not sure if this is the right place to post it, but has anyone with Stacker every considered dropping Ankhs

Completely. They are totally worthless now and as soon as I saw the spoiler swapped them for Chalice's. I'll post my post Mirrodin build pretty soon, I see 2-3 other cards I want to test out.

[Carlos El Salvador]

Why don't you play a 1 of on platnum angel... wonderful card, as you can weld it to keep it from dying, and it keeps you from losing to stupid combo.dec, which you shouldn't lose to with a chalace for 0.

[Vegeta2711]

A. It's 7 mana.
B. You shouldn't lose to combo, you didn't before Chalice, and now it should only be better.
C. WTF @ running a 1-of in a deck with no tutoring or card draw.

[Bastian]

The angel is a card best left for decks that can slow the game enough until they get it: Stax or decks that can easily discard it or search for it: Survival decks like Vengeur Masqué or even TNT.

[Toast]

I am wary of platinum angel...I think that I should be winning the game anyways if I can resolve a 7cc creature and not have it killed with spot removal or if I have an active survival, discard it, and weld it into play.\n\n

[Gothmog]

I think you've missed some of the strongest possible entries for a Stacker build (not that these are sure things, but are worthy of testing):

Mass Hysteria R
Enchantment
All creatures have haste

You guys ever get those opening hands that have Mountain, Workshop, Juggy, but no Mox? I know I do; in those circumstances, go Mountain, Hysteria and on turn 2 your swinging with Juggy just like you'd played him turn 1, also there's a world of difference with Welders that hit the board with haste vs not having it.

Shrapnel Blast 1R
Instant
As an additional cost to play Shrapnel Blast, sac an artifact.
Shrapnel Blast deals 5 damage to target creature or player.

"Mox Grenade" is too good to not try.  Do you guys face tons of Artifact Mutations coming out of sideboards in your metagame?  This is the perfect answer, going to the dome for 5 and denying the opponent the game swinging blockers.  Its just flat out good, Stacker, meet Price of Progress, essentially.

Fireshrieker 3
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has double strike
Equip 2

So let me get this straight, I can go:

turn 1 Workshop, Mox, Juggy
turn 2 Mountain, Fireshrieker, equip, swing for 10?

probably this isn't good enough as its very much a win more card (though you win a lot faster with it), but at least worthy of testing.

Mindstorm Crown 3
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have no cards in your hand, draw a card.  Otherwise you lose one life.

Never, ever, feel the need to play Grafted Skullcap again.  Its card draw for Stacker decks that's actually pretty good.

[Bastian]

Grafted Skullcap allows you to draw every turn no matter of what you have in hand. Mindstorm Crown costing one less is really irrelevant since it's not as good as the Skullcap.

Any card that boosts the power of a 5/3 or a 4/4 is essentially a "win more" card, a dead card that your deck shouldn't need if your deck is good. I don't believe it's even worth testing.

Shrapnel Blast rules! It's like a goblin grenade for stacker! Really cool, I hadn't noticed it before:)

[waSP]

The crown could serve as Skullcaps 5-8, however many you feel the need to play.  I thought Psychogenic Probe would be an awesome replacement for Ankh of Mishra.

Is it just me or does Gothmog's post sound like an infomercial.  Do you ever find yourself wanting a slimmer waistline?  I sure do.  

[Crater Hellion]

pardon my ignorance if that is the case, but you say you beat combo consistently. How on earth do you beat dragon? I really don't see it.. Tendrils you obviously beat because of pillar, but is that the only combo deck you need to prepare for in your metagames?

[Vegeta2711]

Sphere, Pillar, BM, Ankh (well now defunct, but right now I'm not listing Chalice either) Wire, Shaman, etc. am I getting close here?

Pillar and Ankh causes 2 damage everytime it loops, so unless you pull the Necromancy trick you die.

Wire, Shaman and BM slow the opposing deck down of course and also I can simply SB 4 Crypts if I saw the need for it vs. Dragon and Rector Tendrils. Right now the only combo that scares me is Long.dec because it can win turn 1 before I can do anything and turn 2 if I don't have a quick start.

Shrapnel Blast and Mindstorm Crown was some of the stuff I was referring too, the other card being Thought Prision for testing stuff. Rad though found Lightning Greaves which is very intresting because it means I don't have to deal with spot removal, the fact that it gives haste as well makes it a def. possiblity.

Actually though I think there may be a splitting of ways at this time. Stacker 3 was basically an aggro version of Stax or better Ankh Sligh, at this point it's a very strong soft lock tempo-ish deck. Now with these new artifact cards and occasional good red card thrown in I believe a full aggro version may be created w/o so much disruption. Sort of like what Stacker 2 was, but with more firepower. Between the Lightning cards, Shrap and a few of the equipment pump cards you could make very lethal creatures with good back-up's really fast.\n\n

[Gothmog]

Well, I have a fundamentally different view of Stacker than most, as my Stacker builds tend to actually try to kill people rather than play the massive disruption that is currently fashionable.  Essentially, I tend to play mega-Sligh versus watered down Prison which is currently in vogue.

As for Crown vs Skullcap, the Crown is much better.  This is Stacker, you are the aggressor in almost every matchup.  Having carddraw that only works when you are out of cards is fine, as that is a fairly normal situation.  And frankly if you have more than two cards in hand, card draw would be nice, but not essential.  Crown is better because Grafted Skullcap has printed on the card "If your opponent is playing Cunning Wish and has an ounce of brains, you lose.  In addition, if opponent is playing blue in games 2 or 3 of a match, you lose."

At least with Crown, when your opponent sends your board away with Hurkyl's recall, you only lose a massive amount of tempo, not all that tempo and your whole board.

[Radagast]

Here's a preliminary list I've thought up of Stacker 3.5 (not enough changes to warrant 4.0 yet, in my opinion) (side note: first one to mention the not quite heterosexual tendencies of this naming system aquires a cookie point):

//NAME: Stacker 3.5
        4 Lightning Greaves
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        2 Myr Enforcer
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Chalice of the Void
        1 Black Vise
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Great Furnace
        6 Mountain

Myr Enforcer seems like a nice addition, potentially being tubbies 9-12. I only use two because 10 tubbies seems like the right amount; and I'm using a 4-2 ratio of Su-Chis and it because it's less reliable and Su-Chi lets you do Welder tricks for larger Chalices. I chose to forego Wheel and Jar because I want it to be as aggressive as possible without any mucking around, and the slots seemed better filled by other things. My one gripe with the deck is the mana base doesn't have enough room for Wastelands.

EDIT - Shrapnel Blast seems nice, but what would you ever cut for it? I'm leaving it out on the same principle as any other burn - additional lock/stall cards or threats are simply more effective than it.\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Radagast @ Sep. 14 2003,15:29)(first one to mention the not heterosexual tendencies of this naming system aquires a cookie point):

Is that supposed to be an obscure reference to the Kinsey scale? Heh. And JP started that trend, too.


Anyway, it seems like your deck would really, really want wastelands in there somewhere. Colorless time walks are great; if you can drop a couple early against anything with nonbasics, that's practically game. It also seems like Academy isn't going to do a whole lot for you; it only gives you a ton of mana once you've dropped a bunch of mana artifacts, and at that point, the mana artifacts alone should be enough to cast whatever you have left in your hand. It might be nice with the Chalice, though.

Lightning Greaves also seems a little questionable, especially as a four-of. Drawing two is obviously bad, but even if you only draw one, it needs to come out before anything else, giving your opponent a turn to develop (and possibly get enough mana to start countering things). It's not really good unless you either draw a ton of artifact mana (in which case almost anything would be good), or if you draw a workshop and don't draw one of your 9 (!) artifact mana sources. Otherwise, you might as well just play your creatures normally.

Jar seems like a much better choice, since it can come down after your other cards, and you can recur it with welder.\n\n

[Radagast]

Quote Is that supposed to be an obscure reference to the Kinsey scale? Heh. And JP started that trend, too.

Never heard of it. Could you elaborate?

On Lightning Greaves - I strongly feel this card is a godsend for Stacker. It has always annoyed me how Stacker, the mono-red deck, did not get to use Anger, while TnT did. Think of this as Anger for 2 colorless - the untargetability is just a nice (or rather, damned good) bonus. With TnT, the first thing you'd fetch with Survival would almost invariably be Anger - this is the same thing, except it's GG cheaper. And while multiples aren't excellent (basically just makes an additional creature untargetable, which isn't too bad though), it's good enough to have four regardless. And the time you lose in playing the Greaves you gain back many times over when all your creatures get to attack the turn you play them. Definitely don't forget hasted Welders, either.

[Jacob Orlove]

The Kinsey Scale (google=best site on the net)

Hey, I forgot about hasted Welders. That's an excellent point.

[Vegeta2711]

Current test build w/ Mirrodin.

//NAME: Stacker 3 - Vise City V. F.
// Mana
        9 Mountain
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
// Brokenie
        4 Lightning Greaves
        4 Shrapnel Blast
        4 Goblin Welder
// The Vise Age
        1 Black Vise
// Lockies
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
// Critters
        2 Myr Enforcer
        4 Su-Chi
        4 Juggernaut

I've found Chalice is the best card evar and due to lack of space I've currently said screw Wire and I'll see how much I miss it. Shrap Blast and Greaves are the main things being tested right now. I figure in a week or so I'll have some decent data on how the thing functions with it. Also I'm going to make Stacker 2.5 which is basically the aggro version of this. ^^

[David Hernandez]

Crown is not better than Skullcap.

read the card again...

there is always a chance that you will have a card in hand at the beginning of your upkeep during your first game.  If you do, then you MUST take damage.  The Crown does not give you an opportunity to dump your hand (the way Skullcap does).

Crowns might work if you are already running 4 Skullcaps, but then you are relying on the Skullcaps to dump your hand every turn.  This is a weak combo.  You would be better off with a kill card in your deck.

also, in games 2 and 3 you will probably board stuff in.  If so, you may want to have a card in your hand, and if that is true then you are going to be pulling Crowns out.

This means that the Crowns are not a key component of the deck.  Skullcaps always stay in, and thus Skullcaps are better.

--Dave.

edit: Vegeta: i think Chalice is going to be a MVP.\n\n

[MoreFling]

Chalice is very strong. I wonder if Myr Enforcer is really worth it, over something like Trike, but we'll see about that I guess. I would however, still advocate you find place for fetchies + badlands + duress, since even with Chalise, I still firmly believe it can be very very strong. Not only are you giving yourself room to thin your deck, but also are offering resistance to all the artifact hate that will undoubtly be present when Mirrodin hits in, or at least soon there-after. I'm not super impressed by Scrapnel Blast. I think the natural card to go in favor of duress is lightning greaves. It's a neat trick, but I wouldn't call it anything more than that.
It could speed you up a turn, but at what cost? Duress could do the same thing for you, at a lower cost.

Look, I'm no stacker expert, I never actually played it myself, only tested against it, but my suggestions seem sound enough to work in theory at least.

[Gothmog]

David, I'm baffled by your logic here.

This is Stacker, you, in general, are the aggressor and play your hand out.  You also usually run into trouble when you've run low on cards and want to draw more than 1 card a turn.

Whether you can dump your hand or not is irrelevent.  If you have a handfull of cards, you don't need to play the Crown.  This is the same scenario as a Skullcap, do you play a Skullcap when you have 3-5 other cards to play? Of course not.

The idea here, of course, is you play 26-7 mana sources.  Very often, by turn 4 or so you have more mana than drawing 1 threat every other turn can use, and your hand has been depleted both by playing out spells/land and hand destruction.  You really want to draw 2 cards a turn, and its very likely you will be able to play both every turn.

The argument post-board has lost me also.  You seem to be saying you are boarding in conditional hosers you may want to hold onto and not use right away.  I could see some of that; REB, Rack & Ruin, other hosers.  Now, presumably, since these cards are boarded, they are hosers and will be very good against an opponent.  You propose that having a Skullcap is better in this situation because you draw into more hosers (get 2 cards every turn).  The logic loses me, because in this scenario, as part of the scenario, you're telling me the hosers are conditional, yet Skullcap makes you pitch your hand every turn.  How is Skullcap benefiting you here?  If your boarded cards are conditional, and you want to play them now, Crown is just as good because your hand will be empty (ie you'll play them).  If you don't want to play them now, Skullcap makes you dump them (theoretically some of the best cards in your deck for this matchup) where with Crown you get to hold them at a cost of only 1 life.  

The only downside to Crown is you stop getting 2 cards a turn then and have to pay 1 life a turn, until you use the hoser.  I would rather sit on a strong hoser, draw only 1 card a turn and lose a life, than be forced to pitch a strong hoser, keep drawing 2 cards (hoping you draw into another one later) and face the other weaknesses inherent in playing Skullcap.

[David Hernandez]

i see your point, but i disagree.  Saying that you "generally play your hand out" is too conditional when you dont have a way to dump the cards if you need to.  

Quote Whether you can dump your hand or not is irrelevent.  If you have a handfull of cards, you don't need to play the Crown.  This is the same scenario as a Skullcap, do you play a Skullcap when you have 3-5 other cards to play? Of course not.

with Skullcap, you actually might drop 3 cards because you have a Welder in play, so i dont agree with your argument there.  

My point is, you dont have a choice in regard to dumping cards (if you need to), and you must take damage if you cannot (or will not).

While it is true that the Skullcap forces you to dump your hand, I believe a Skullcap engine will prove superior to a Crown engine.  

As always, testing may prove differently, but looking at it with the info we have, i would rather run  Skullcaps.

--dave.

[Vegeta2711]

All I'm doing is testing the stuff, better to throw all the shit against the wall all at once and see what sticks. Greaves and Shrap Blast compliment each other very nicely in increasing the aggro aspects of the deck.

The thing is of course, I don't have space for both really. (i.e. I want my friggin Karn/Shaman and Wire's back for the Tog matchup.) so whichever one performs the best by the end of the test period will stay. The only exception is if they work SO well togheter that it'd be stupid to take one out, right now that's not happening but I still need to test vs. the few high powered aggro decks left and Tog.

Myr Enforcer is a lot easier to cast than Trike, which was the main problem with it. Still not too much difference right now.

Basically the summary is 'we'll see how it all works out'.

David: Totally agree Chalice is a MVP. This card is freaking insane, I do much better vs. cheap aggro and gives a helping hand against Keeper. Of course I don't need to tell you how it does vs. combo...  

Oh and I doubt I'll ever use Fetchland + Duress. I'm not weakening my mana base even worse for just Duress and DT. God forbid the Fish match go below 50/50.  \n\n

[Mellow D]

Would this deck benefit from an additional mana creature from Mirrodin:

Cathodion - 3
Artifact Creature (U)
When Cathodion is put into a graveyard from play, add 3 to your mana pool.
Cathodions repair the Great Furnace by welding parts of themselves to the mechanism. Eventually, they become one with the machine.
3/3
#149

It's a miniature Su-Chi, but it gets out first turn more consistently.  Worth a shot?

[Vegeta2711]

Actually that was originally in one of the Urza's sets, also it was considered for use in the original S3 but rejected over P. Warbeast.

[Redman]

One problem I've been having with the deck is the Su-Chi issue.  I really wish there was a better alternative. Myr Enforcer seems just a tad too conditional. In the absence of a solid replacement, can't we find a useful place to put all that mana at instant speed?

Creature enchancers don't seem the way to go when I have so much trouble finding a creature and getting him to stay. The problem with the deck is not a lack of cool cards that go well with the theme. The problem I've found is the low (creature) threat density in a deck with basically no way to draw cards.

Also, I may be crazy, but I'm really not liking the Spheres of Resistance as much as I should.  They seem to suck way too much for me if I don't have a Workshop on board, and I never seem to get a Workshop to stay for any length of time. Perhaps it's just I've had a few bad outings, But I feel Tangle wire is often better.

Chalice is what this deck needs against Sligh and Suicide as well. It looks to be strong. Might make my experience with Sphere better as well.

[Gothmog]

Redman, I've said for months I didn't like Sphere in this deck, but have been shouted down by the masses.  I would never remove Wire for Sphere, and frankly I've always thought Sphere is mostly a SB card, as in my experience it only truly shines when you were ahead anyway or when you win the die roll.  Coming out of the board when you know you are going to go first, makes sense to me, but that's a lot of board space.

For what to do with the Su-Chi mana, I have super secret tech I've been testing that I generally like the results of, but will probably subject me to vast amounts of mocking and ridicule....(oh my fragile ego)     Flaming Gambit

Its an instant, costs one red, and since Morphling is rarely played, basically the only time it won't at least take your opponents worst creature with it is facing off with a Dreadnought.  Best case scenario of course it goes straight at the dome.  Also, Gambit flashes back (for RR), which has more than once done the last couple of points needed to an opponent.

Of course, I very much like to see the sweat on my opponents brow when they are at low life and wondering how much burn I'm going to draw, and I am such a horrible Magic player, I still play lightning bolt in my Stacker deck.