Optimizing Keeper post Mirrodin

[serracollector]

I have been out the loop for quite a while, but I like how Chalice and Scepter are making the metagame playable for Keeper again.  With the return of the green moxn, why drop Sylvn though?  And with the drop of LoA, fastbond/future sight is GODLY.  So, with that simply put I might as well post my current list:

Blue(18)
Ancestral Recall
Timewalk
Mystical Tutor
Stroke of Genious
Fact or Fiction
Futuresite
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish

White(3)
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree (kill)

Black(6)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
2 Duress

Green(2)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fastbond

Split(1)
Fire/Ice

Artifacts(13)
4 Chalice of the Void
7 SoloMoxen
2 Iso Scepter

Mana(18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 City
1 Academy

SideBoard
Decree
Fire/Ice
Abeyance
Naturalize
2 Erase
2 Charm (black, removes 3 cards from grave, forget name)
The Abyss
Moat (laugh, laugh away, it stops TOG damnit)
4 Phyrexian Negator (1st turn can still be game vs many decks)
Mirror Universe (its kool)

More critter control than most, 2 Duress on top of 8 Counters, 4 Chalice, and more Scepter targets.  I likes it so far.

Serracollector\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote With the return of the green moxn, why drop Sylvn though?  

Because fetchlands make a four color mana base pretty much optimal.

[Mykeatog]

Quote (Grendal @ Oct. 09 2003,08:45)Zherbus's build has me feeling a little bit better, but he still doesn't pack scepter, which I believe is a must due to its brokeness earl/mid/late game.  

So what you really mean is...

due to it's brokeness DURING the game.

[LemanRuss]

Let's continue this topic, it was very interesting.

Do you think the new Keeper must avoid playing so many 1cc cards to improve deck's synergy with Chalice, or no ?

Advantages of playing less 1cc cards:

-   Less vulnerable to opponent’s Chalice, especially those played by non-control decks which might not be able to wait to cast Chalice for a higher number

-   Better synergy when casting Chalice for one on your own, which will happen quite often against most of the decks, from Hulsmask and Rector to weenies

Disadvantages:

-   A Chalice for two hoses the quite entire deck. It will not happen so often, but workshop decks can cast such a Chalice easily

-   The entire deck is slower



About including Duress: I am not sold on playing this card for two reasons, a) if you play it in addition of the 4 Brainstorms, a Chalice for 1 is too much painful for you, and b) if you replace Brainstorms to play it, you will be unable to cast them beyond a Chalice for 1 (they are completely dead), while the Brainstoms can be trashed using Force of Will.

Any thoughts ?

Eastman, some new results about your playtesting ?

[Ric_Flair]

Keeper theory and deck discussion, in my mind, is among the most complex Magic thinking there is, which I why I have not commented much in these types of threads.  I can fight with the best of them about dumb shit, but Keeper discussion is anything but.  Vintage players love this deck too much for retard comments.  That said, here is what very may well be a retard comment:

Has Scepter been tested with a Scepter shaped, Cunning Wish fetchable SB?  

In my recent testings for 1.x I play a Tog deck with Scepter and Cunning Wish.  The idea that I can play Edict and Abyss them every turn is cool, but in Vintage the real thing is available.  Still, a card like Cremate goes from okay to awesome when on Scepter.  I am sure other such instants would be good.  And the Wish fetching means that you don't have to "save" instants.  

Just a thought.

[PucktheCat]

Can someone explain to me why Keeper is supposed to love Chalice and Hulk is supposed to hate it?

I know that Hulk's curve stops lower than Keeper's but three is pretty safe, don't you think?

At the lower casting costs the decks look very similar indeed.  The 0-1 cc slots can, depending on some choices, be identical.

Am I missing something?

Leo

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Has Scepter been tested with a Scepter shaped, Cunning Wish fetchable SB?

I know of a few, and would expect that most keeper savants have this strategy on their laundry list of items to test.  Cremate is a good find, but this might strategy might provide the widest array of tools if the sideboard features charms (and obviously split cards), which provide 2-3 useful effects in one.

The Ebony, Sapphire, Emerald charms all show promise.

As an aside, if you imprint the emerald charm, can you just pay 2 over and over to up the storm count?

[LemanRuss]

Quote At the lower casting costs the decks look very similar indeed.  The 0-1 cc slots can, depending on some choices, be identical.

Am I missing something?

In fact, I have tested the matchup against Hulk, and that is true that this deck hates Chalice much. First, his many spells for 1cc like Brainstorm/Ancestral recall are very needed to find quickly their bigger draw cards, counters, and especially: lands. As Keeper can disrupt land and moxen quicky, cutting cards which can prevent Hulk from stalling is huge. Then, three of his countermagic cards are at 1cc: the Duress.
Then again, a Chalice for 2 cuts off half of its draw engine, while Keeper's one (essentially Skeletal Scrying) remains effective - Keeper is playing more mana and less small draw spells. Finally, in the mid/late game, a resolved Chalice at 3 means Hulk's death if it has not put a Tog on the table already. This is a great point, because it is more effective that casting a mid-game Future Sight, which each one knows it is a lethal kill card. Of course, the advantage of Chalice is that it is not a dead card in the first turns (or may not be).

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ Oct. 10 2003,16:05)As an aside, if you imprint the emerald charm, can you just pay 2 over and over to up the storm count?

Isochron Scepter
Artifact
Imprint -- When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.) , : You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

Since you play the copy, it does indeed add to storm.

[PucktheCat]

Quote (LemanRuss @ Oct. 10 2003,15:21)

Quote At the lower casting costs the decks look very similar indeed.  The 0-1 cc slots can, depending on some choices, be identical.

Am I missing something?

In fact, I have tested the matchup against Hulk, and that is true that this deck hates Chalice much. First, his many spells for 1cc like Brainstorm/Ancestral recall are very needed to find quickly their bigger draw cards, counters, and especially: lands. As Keeper can disrupt land and moxen quicky, cutting cards which can prevent Hulk from stalling is huge. Then, three of his countermagic cards are at 1cc: the Duress.
Then again, a Chalice for 2 cuts off half of its draw engine, while Keeper's one (essentially Skeletal Scrying) remains effective - Keeper is playing more mana and less small draw spells. Finally, in the mid/late game, a resolved Chalice at 3 means Hulk's death if it has not put a Tog on the table already. This is a great point, because it is more effective that casting a mid-game Future Sight, which each one knows it is a lethal kill card. Of course, the advantage of Chalice is that it is not a dead card in the first turns (or may not be).

I understand the point you are making but I have to quibble just a bit.

First of all, you mention the three duress that the Chalice stops at X=1.  Remember that at the time 3 Duress were added to Hulk Keeper was also playing with multiple Duress.  There is no reason Hulk needs to stay with them any more than Keeper does.  This is my point.  There are only a few 0-1 cc cards that are good for these decks and if both decks are fully optimized it is likely that they will have nearly identical vulnerability to Chalice at 0 and 1 cc.

Second, you refer to Hulk's vulnerability to Chalice at X=2.  While I agree that this is a substantial problem for the deck if it occurs I am less sure how common it will be.  Workshop decks may be able to reliably get 4 mana early but few others can.  Also, many Keeper builds are quite vulnerable to X=2 as well.  Ultimately this would hinge on particulars of the builds in question, but the versions of Keeper with AK are certainly no better off than Hulk here.  Versions without AK are probably better off in this regard, but I would assert that the power of the AK engine is only a little bit dampened by the presence of a 4cc hoser for it.

Finally, I think the vunerability of Hulk to Chalice at X=3 is of fairly marginal relevence.  I know it will seal some games, but I don't expect it to decide to many.

Leo

[Jacob Orlove]

Undestranding why Hulk is hit harder than Keeper by chalice requires that you go beyond the decklists and look at what each deck is trying to accomplish. Hulk relies on the raw power of card drawing, counters, and tog to win games. Card drawing and counters play an important role in Keeper's game, but they are not the sum total of the deck. Keeper runs answers (flexible and powerful ones, but answers nonetheless). Keeper's strategy is inherently flexible, and adapts itself to a chalice on the board. Hulk, by contrast, is surprisingly inflexible; chalice is crippling.

[LemanRuss]

I agree with Jacob on his points, but I would add something about Duress;
even before Mirrodin, the better Keeper decklists were not playing Duress any more. This card had been tested to counter the power of combo/prison decks in the first turns, but was finally not so good for several reasons. First, it is a one for one countermagic which is not a counterspell, which is bad in a deck like Keeper which is not drawing as many cards as Hulk or Long do. Then, while a counterspell will counter not only the spell but also the tempo used to play it, Duress just removes the spell. That is to say that is is not buying time for you (and sometimes other cards like LED).

The other reason is that since the best strategy for Keeper in current metagame is the use of mana denial (especially Gorilla Shaman), the mana base of the deck hardly allows you to get a black mana on the first turn + red mana needed for the shaman and maybe the white one required to play Swords to Plowshares on a Goblin Welder or a Xantid Swarm.

Of course, since we are trying to include Chalice in Keeper, I think that Duress would be a dead weight; again, the great think with Brainstorm beyond a Chalice for 1 is that it can be trahsed with Force of Will !

[rozetta]

Ok, another list. This is what I've been testing recently. There are some odd card choices, so I'll explain them below:

// Blue (22)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Cunning Wish
2 Future Sight
2 Compulsion
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Power Artifact

// Black (4)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist

// White (3)
1 Balance
2 Decree of Justice

// Artifact (11)
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Grim Monolith
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

// Land (20)
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra

Sideboard (15)
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Smother
1 Fire/Ice
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Disenchant
1 Dismantling Blow
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast

My thoughts are that now we've found Decree of Justice to be the most viable win condition, we actually have a use for the power/artifact combo for "quick" wins, since there are 3 maindeck X spells to win with and 1 that can be accessed by our 4 cunning wishes. However, the power/artifact combo is no longer needed to win, since we can just cycle a decree once in control and win off those tokens anyway. This means that the power artifact is pitchable to FoW moreso than before.

The Grim Monolith allows us to power slightly earlier large Decrees, Braingeyser or Scrying. It also allows us to get off an early chalice for larger than 0 or 1 if needed.

Compulsion is an odd choice, since it's not that powerful of a card. However, I see a few pluses to it in this deck. Firstly it can be used to cycle away cards that have been shut down by the chalice. Secondly, it can get us to the combo quicker if needed. With Future Sight out, it allows us to cycle a counter into our hand to be able to play out more cards. As an additional side-effect, we can cycle away the combo parts for a quick kill with Yawgwill, while maintaining control.

I've included 2 Future Sight, since it's an extra blue card to pitch and it's nice to get one down nice and early in a lot of games without having to burn a tutor on it.

3 Chalices main is probably enough. I found 4 too much, although it depends on how much longer.dec I'll see.

The sideboard is somewhat tentative. I wanted to vary the colour and cc of the spells to get around chalice. Hence the Smother/Edict/Stop/Fire/Ice for creature removal and Disenchant/D.Blow/Rack and Ruin for disenchants. I'm really not sure I even need the REBs anymore, since a simple chalice for 1 shuts them down. I might prefer something else there.

Remember also that this is somewhat metagamed for my area. The mox monkeys are less useful in my area, since there are less powered decks. Last tournament I participated in, I played 2 of them main and drew them both in every game in every match and they destroyed a total of 1 Sol Ring the whole day. Honestly, they were complete bollocks.

There's also a lot of black (most people are copying Chalice Black right now for the new environment) and things like sligh, R/G, goblin sligh and unpowered control decks. I'm considering an Abyss side and maybe even Moat. Plus this configuration shouldn't be _too_ scared of a chalice.

[Matt The Great]

With four Wishes and the Grim/Power combo, why wouldn't you sideboard an Enlightened Tutor?

[rozetta]

@Matt: Good point. funnily, I tested an Enlightened Tutor maindeck, but didn't like it too much and didn't even think to put it in the sideboard as a wish target. I'll give it a try.

[Zherbus]

If I were to want another tutor, I'd go with Lim-Duls vault over Enlightened Tutor anyday. It's just that much more flexible.

[rozetta]

In testing, the Lim-Dul's Vault in side has been massive. Against a lot of decks, it's the first thing I wish for just to set up some brokenness on the top of my deck. With FS out, it's almost a draw 5. There are times that an Enlightened would be better - e.g. I have a Yawgwill and want to get the combo now, so I tutor for the grim, play it, Yawgwill and tutor for the power artifact, but overall, the brokenness that can be set up with Lim Dul's Vault is more useful. If I had more room, I'd maybe try siding both, since it also gives me options when there's a chalice at either 1 or 2 in play.

Actually, I've modified my deck currently to not include any red. It's just for testing, but the theory that a lot of the useful red cards (REB, Shaman) are not being used in my build (either because of Chalice or because of metagame choices), I realized that between black and white I can take care of any permanent on the board anyway, and this allows a slightly more stable mana base and some freed up slots in the sideboard. I modified the sideboard to include 1 extra Chalice, 2 Misdirection, 1 Abyss and 1 Lim-Dul's Vault over the Fire/Ice, 3 REB and Rack and Ruin. I also swapped the edict for a second disenchant, since there are few creatures nowadays that can only be taken care of with edict, and disenchant takes care of a lot of the most dangerous creatures.

The new mana base is essentially 4 Fetch, 4 Tundra, 4 U.Sea and an Island (plus the other usual stuff and an Academy). It's nice to be able to get the extra white if I hit the combo, so I can make lot of angels (stylish win). Of course, the added resistance to multiple strips is a plus.

I'm still not 100% on the compulsions, but as janky as they are, they've actually been pretty good to me so far. I also feel that a Zuran Orb would be nice here, but just can't find the room. One other option I've been considering is powder kegs, but again, no room right now.

Anyway, this is all still quite experimental, but I thought it'd be nice to share these thoughts in case other people have been testing similar builds.

[Freddie]

Has anyone considered playing Tempest of Light in the SB of keeper as a cunning wish target?

Just curious.

-Freddie

[Matt The Great]

Probably not. There really aren't that many dangerous enchantments around right now, so it's better to have your enchantment removal double as artifact removal (Disenchant).

[Freddie]

I can see your point.

In my area there are a few decks that are kinda ripe with problem enchantment bombs, Bloodmoon, survival etc... so it may just be a metagame call.

Could be a nice surprise to hit 'em all a once, if they are not expecting it, and start doubling up to make removal harder.

Just asking, but since I hardly (if ever) use cunning wish anyway, just throwing it out there....

-Freddie\n\n

[rozetta]

After playtesting various builds of Keeper with maindeck Chalices, I have to honestly say that, in actuality, it's not been nearly as good as I expected. I'd say that, at most, it's been good 30% of the time, probably less. I've tested against various suicide decks, goblin sligh (with the matrons, recruiters, ringleaders, etc.), U/B mask, mud and blue-based control. Obviously it would shine versus long.dec and maybe some other combo decks, but against all the other decks, it was often a dead card or created dead cards.

Just wanted to find out what other people's opinions have been.

[Matt The Great]

I think that if you could make a Keeper with nothing or almost nothing at one mana, you could make a four-Chalice build that might be really great, because you could always default a Chalice to X=1. Maybe 1 Ancestral, 3-4 Brainstorm, 2 Shaman? You'd have to find something besides StP, but that's all (REBs are less important when you can Chalice for 1).

Oh, and Freddie: I'd probably play Allay over Tempest of Light. Not that either is really worth it right now.

[rozetta]

1 Ancestral, 3-4 Brainstorm and 2 Shaman is still quite a lot of 1cc cards, and it then cuts out mystical and vampiric tutors which have both proven effective recently (and especially so against suicide which is a common matchup). Also, losing stp is bad unless you have a way to get both moat and abyss into play early or plan on using smother.

In a post I made last week, I mentioned I had been testing compulsion as a way of cycling dead cards once a chalice is down. I realised a few days later that there was a better card for this - Read the Runes. I know this also sounds a little dodgy, but it's been pretty good in testing and far better than compulsion. You can play some neat tricks with it, especially with regard to chalice (which it will always get around due to the fact it's an X spell). For instance, at opponent's end of turn it can be used to sacrifice your own chalices to be able to play the spells they were shutting down. This is especially good if you're planning on playing yawgmoth's will, since you can also eat moxes and maybe a land which will come back from the will. If you're going to lose permanents due to a deed, meltdown, pulverize, keg etc., you can cast it and draw cards off those permanents. You can also draw cards off the tokens you made from a decree of justice or trenches. Furthermore, it has synergy with skeletal scrying - against mono coloured decks, cycle away wastelands and then draw cards off them from scrying. Ditto for creature removal against a creatureless deck.

I've been playing around with a lot of different ideas recently in testing and I feel that the previous build I posted is also just not good enough. I can't put my finger on it, but there's just something wrong or something missing. I need that maindeck removal, but I also need enough blue cards for reliable FoW. And I need ways of getting around chalice. I realized that red is still key, but maybe more for rack and ruin.

Then there's the rock and a hard place feeling that chalice is almost needed maindeck to have a shot at beating long.dec 2 out of 3, but it just sucks in so many other matchups.

I have a feeling the brainstorms might be coming back into my build...

Dammit, back to the drawing board.

[Matt The Great]

Here's something I've been meaning to toy around with:

//Card Advantage
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Time Walk
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Mind Twist

//Manipulation
       4 Burning Wish
        3 Cunning Wish
        3 Brainstorm
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor

//Control
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
       4 Chalice of the Void
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Swords to Plowshares

//Artifacts
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus

//Lands
        4 Flooded Strand
        3 Tundra
        3 Underground Sea
        3 Volcanic Island
        1 City of Brass
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine

//  Sideboard:
//Sorceries
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  1 Deep Analysis
SB:  1 Chainer's Edict
SB:  1 Primitive Justice

SB:  1 Decree of Justice

//Instants
SB:  2 Coffin Purge
SB:  2 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor

I believe that's 59/15, so I need a maindeck card (almost certainly a kill card - Decree probably).

Trying to abuse Chalice, I slimmed down on the 1cc spells. In this deck, you now have two default Chalice numbers: 0 and 1. This is huge. A Chalice at 1 will always hurt the opponent more than you. You can even set a Chalice=2 if you want against control (again, it's almost guaranteed to hurt the opponent more than you), because you're not so reliant on stuff like Scepter.

Both Wishes can get a strong anti-artifact card (Justice and Pulse). Both Wishes can get card advantage. Both Wishes can get spot removal.

You don't need much spot removal when you can so easily find Balance. And being able to Will multiple times is good.

Obviously, Scepter is not even a consideration for this deck.

I'd like a little more colored mana, but not more total. Cut a Wasteland for a fifth fetch, maybe? Or maybe CoB #2. I don't know.

One thing is that with so many tutors, I really, really want more fast mana, but I can't think of anything suitable. Suggestions would be appreciated. Fastbond would be nice, but I really don't think I could fit green in. If I could, I'd to Regrowth as a versatile Burning Wish target.

Should I work a Vindicate in the sideboard? Probably not, but it's worth thinking about. What about Death Grasp?\n\n

[Maxx Matt]

i'm testing a great number/variety of new Mirrodin's cards and this is what I discovered ( or at least Realized... ):

1) CotV AND I.S. aren't selfexclusive but doesn't exist or at least, I haven't find yet, a configuration with both of them (AND of course without losing NOTHING against some other tier1 decks ) in the maindeck.

2) I.S. maindeck is really HUGE agaisnt a non combo non blue-based control Enviroment ( I play against Decks for which I need MULTIPLE solutions to survive even their first rush such as Madness, Goblin, AnkhSligh, Stax, Suicide, Venguer ). It let You to build soft lock for which they MAY have solution

3)CotV is ( and I'm not discovering nothing strange.. ) extremely power on slowing down te combo opponent. Look at what I've said just now... it doesn't LET YOU WIN the combo matchup.. just let you to achieve a little goal that MAY LET you WIN the game. 2 CotV setted to 0 AND 1 are game of course. only one is less than an Half Win .


4) CotV is really really not gamebreaking in Mirror ( and for mirror I'm used to refer to every control, aggro control Deck that NOT IS HULK ). It slows down you and your opponent so much that you can finally set oned to 2 and realize that your only spell are Wlak, DT and Drains, or after setting one of them to 1 you draw 1 casting cost spell for the rest of the game! ... i'm not a fun of "SFIGA" (I mean "really unluuuuuucky situation" with the word "SFIGA"...  ), but this situation doesn't bring to nothing in he mirror.

Maindecking CotV let the Stax player who go first to laugh at the seen of it. The Stax player who go after you as so much different CC in his Deck and so many weapon agaisnt you that I don't now if multiple chalice are useful:

x=0 , every one lose acceleration. unluckily he has Workshops...
x=1 , he lose Vault and Welder. You lose StP AND Brianstorm AND Shamans AND ancestrall
x=2 , he lose Spheres and Monolith, YOU LOSE!
 he mantains ALL the Higher cc as you but he has Workshops to fuel them and you only Drain that doesn't usually work under Wire


I won only a match with cotv on table thanx to it during which I cast a first turn cotv with 2 mox and a Shaman AND he keep an Hand of artifacts and no Workshop.


5) cotv is huge against Hulk. It can slow down his STRONG play strategy ( braistorm, duress, reb ) letting you to cast yours bombs ( skeletal, crypts, impulse ) and eventually win in a safer way.

6) IF I play both I.S. and CotV in the deck I notice that I usually swap them for an X total of Skeletals and/or Impulse and/or Removals. Every card lost seems to me to transform the deck in a not better deck, with solution not Permanent and too Slowly to break AN ENTIRE game.

let me explain better.

I can succesfully cast a I.S. agaisnt a control deck and win, but if I had 4 mana I can cast a Skeletal for 3 and achieve an amount of card that scepter donate do me only after 3 turns. And during this time the opponent doesn't only  watch me win...

I can successfully cast an early cotv to survive, but ( suppose both cotv and i.s. in the maindeck )if my remaining engine of draw are braistorms and ancestral and my removals are shamans and stp I don't konw I can Abuse of a resolved I.S.

------


so I'm not saying nothing stupid, such as these cards wouldn't be used in any keeper maindeck.. but that just now Both Two of Them Doesn't Seem to me to transform the deck in a better one.
 
-------

Looking in the Tourney section, I found the last Keeper result and he seems to have played a deck not proposed here, with cotv in the side AND I.S. maindeck. He lose to Hulk, even playing 3 duress maindeck. It looks very solid against every other deck faced.

-IMHO the lack of SKeletal Scrying ( read: Massive Card Draw ) swapped with Duress slow the deck too much.
-Sadly I woud love the I.S. when he resolve. Sadly I really Hate to lose to card instead of only one.

Nowdays I prefer a configuration similar to Zherbus's One, with Maindeck cotv and no I.S. .
The build proposed by Rozetta deserves a lot of attention in my opiinon and after testing a bit it I would say something better

my 2 cents


----------
Maxx Matt
----------

[spevack]

I played last night at C&J's, and I've been doing some playtesting with Keeperish decks as well.

Currently, here are my thoughts on a few issues:

1.  Like rozetta, I don't particularly like Chalice in the main deck either.  Likely I simply suck at using it, but I don't like playing it on 1 because it kills Brainstorm, Shaman, and STP.  It's not good at 2 because it kills Fire/Ice, Mana Drain, Disenchant, Shattering Pulse, etc.  And I feel like I don't need to play it at 3 and 4.  Really, you just want to play it at zero against some crazy combo deck.  So, I'm content to have 4xChalice in my SB and bring them in if needed.  I'm betting that the *threat* of Chalice will make combo go away, and you won't actually need to have them yourself.  So I guess it's a bit of a metagame risk.

2.  I am trying a control deck without black.  Mind Twist is good, and YawgWill is obviously broken, but I'd rather have a more consistent mana base than add black for those two cards, Demonic Tutor, and maybe one or two wish targets.  So far, I've been okay.

3.  I have found Isochron Scepter to be *amazing*.

Here is my current test list

Deck: Scepter-Go
Format: Vintage
================

Main Deck
---------
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
3 Isochron Scepter
2 Fire/Ice
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Goblin Trenches
1 Decree of Justice
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard
---------
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Stifle
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Fire/Ice
1 Blue Elemental Blast

[jntemp777]

spevack,

What a coincidence, I think I was just playing against this deck today at Frank and Sons in LA, except they were running phids and Morphling-kill.  

Is there a lot of Burning-Academy/Long.dec at C&J's?  I've been toying with a build of Long using some Chain of Vapor(to send back the Chalice for the critical turn) and 1 Spoils and it still trampled over Keeper even after they sideboarded.

[Samite Healer]

Quote (Maxx Matt @ Oct. 24 2003,12:50)Looking in the Tourney section, I found the last Keeper result and he seems to have played a deck not proposed here, with cotv in the side AND I.S. maindeck. He lose to Hulk, even playing 3 duress maindeck. It looks very solid against every other deck faced.

In my tourney report I lost to Hulk on day one, but I didn't get enough time to write the report for the second tournament yet.  The next day I beat the same Hulk deck played by the same player, so the results aren't as bad.  Hulk is still a rough matchup though.

For those of you who havne't read it, here's what I am currently playing:

//Mana (27 Sources)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

//Disruption (4 Spells)

3 Duress
1 Gorilla Shaman

//Manipulation/Search (13 Spells)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish
2 Impulse
4 Brainstorm

//Removal (3 Spells)

1 Fire/Ice
2 Swords to Plowshares

//Countermagic (8 Spells)

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

//Additional Brokenness (4 Spells)

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Isochron Scepter

//Win Conditions (2 Spells)

2 Decree of Justice

//Sideboard

1 The Abyss
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Disenchant
1 Fire/Ice
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast

Regarding Chalice, I didn't feel that it was necessary in the main deck.  I don't find it very useful in the mirror match, and because I expect the mirrors to increse post mirrodin, I'd rather have them in the board.  In fact, at both tournaments I rarely even used them, only boarding them in against Sligh and Long.  In the sligh matchup they are really good, but you could survive without them.  Against Long they are extremely important, as everyone knows.

Isochron Scepter, however, is a horse of a different color.  I have found it absolutely AMAZING, and has singlehandedly won me lots of games.  Against MUD and Stax, wishing for Hurkyl's and putting it on a stick is amazing.  Against Sam (pernicious dude's son), I was able to scepter StP and Hurkyl's against double resolved blood moon.  Sceptering any Fire/Ice, Impulse, or Brainstorm is amazing.  BilltheDuck just won the Hadley tournament today, and he was running 4 Scepters.  While I think it may be a bit much, maybe that will also show people how good scepter is.

[spevack]

Quote (jntemp777 @ Oct. 25 2003,23:30)spevack,

What a coincidence, I think I was just playing against this deck today at Frank and Sons in LA, except they were running phids and Morphling-kill.  

Is there a lot of Burning-Academy/Long.dec at C&J's?  I've been toying with a build of Long using some Chain of Vapor(to send back the Chalice for the critical turn) and 1 Spoils and it still trampled over Keeper even after they sideboarded.

jntemp777,

An early version of my decklist sill had the Ophidians, and while I love that card dearly, I felt like it was a little bit slow, and I would rather have more imprintable instants.

There has been a large amount of Long in the past at C&J's, but this past week was the first tournament with Mirrodin, and Long was totally absent, probably due to fear of Chalice.

[LemanRuss]

My observations:

1)   Isochron Scepter :

This card is far too slow to be useful in the early game, and is too dangerous to play unprotected. Against many of the best decks, it is only useful to “lock” the opponent in the late game. Against many less good decks, this card works well but is not really needed. In the two cases, if I were to play a card in the Scepter slot, I’d rather use a second Future Sight, which a) is blue, b) performs better in all the situations where the Scepter can be used, c) is not harder to cast and protect even if it may look to be because of its cc, and d) FS wins your game all the time.

2)   Chalice of the Void

This card is good, but not stellar. I prefer using it as a silver bullet like The Abyss was, playing one maindeck (probably replacing the Mind twist) and sideboarding one. This card is a dissuasive threat that will make many deck far less popular, but I am not sold on playing 3 of them in a deck in which they have no particular synergy with the other cards. That said, my decklist looks like Zherbus’ one, with some differences; I really like playing Impulse in the deck and believe that in today’s metagame, the consistency provided by the Brainstorms AND Impulse is mandatory to make the deck viable.