Optimizing Keeper post Mirrodin

[Eastman]

As most of you have probably realized by now Mirrodin is going to shake up the Vintage format considerably. Although I don't see it as a negative thing (many do) it is obvious that the top tables are going to be undergoing an almost complete overhaul.

It's obviously prudent to do some testing in preparation for the new format, and it is clear at this point that the more powerful decks will be those that can optimally include and adapt to the new cards and the new format.  The most obvious first choice for testing is the ubiquitous 'Keeper' deck that has proven its ability to adapt to nearly every format Vintage has seen.

My experiences with neo-Keeper have been positive. As I practiced with the deck I found myself beginning to understand the true power of chalice. Whereas from the start I was primarily concerned with playing a chalice in hand for the 'optimal number', I quickly realized that against a majority of decks it is simply sufficient to play the chalice with any number of counters on it. Merely slowing your opponent is a vital part of the control strategy, and a chalice at any number will aid in this.

There are few differences between this and the traditional Keeper deck most recently modernized by Zherbus and there are in turn only a few additional nuances to the strategy. Scepter is an excellent play at any time and you should never hesitate to remove a Brainstorm or even Mystical tutor in the hopes that a better instant will come along. Chalice is, as I said earlier, an excellent play at nearly any account (although obviously there are exceptions to this rule). Against a majority of decks chalices for 1 and 2 are most strong. Think about the sort of curve your opponent is playing in their deck (control obviously carries a heavier curve than aggro) and it will be clear whether to set chalice at 1 or 2. Against workshop based control and most combo it is best to set chalice for 0 as soon as you have the chance.

My updates are in bold:


/Bad Hulk.dec
The Mana Base
           3 Volcanic Island
        4 Underground Sea
        3 Tundra
        4 Polluted Delta
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Library of Alexandria
        4 Wasteland
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Pearl

Control Elements
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Mind Twist
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
           1 Balance
        3 Cunning Wish
        3 Chalice of the Void
        1 Fire/Ice

Draw/Tutor/Recursion
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
        2 Isochron Scepter
          4 Brainstorm
        1 Fact or Fiction

Kill
        1 Decree of Justice
        1 Goblin Trenches
        1 Future Sight


//  Sideboard:
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  1 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 The Abyss
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares


I can't resolve whether or not to play Future sight and Fact or Fiction over easier or even Scepterable draw spells (scrying/Impulse/AK even). The strength of Future Sight is clear but I am still undecided on whether or not it is winning games or sealing them. FoF is often too slow to be decisive but it's strength and instant speed are as always a consideration.

This deck is quite strong. As far as matchups are concerned I'm hesitant to be overly specific as it seems likely that this list and those of the decks I'd match against will be changing drastically before Mirrodin becomes legal. I will mention to GI's credit that I had a great deal of trouble with his new GAT build... where chalice (which I thought would seal this matchup) didn't seem altogether helpful.

Just for reference here is Zherbus 'Tier2.dec'which won an NH tournament in mid September:


/NAME: WorstDeckEver.
// Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
// Kill
1 Goblin Trenches
1 Decree of Justice
// Draw
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Skeletal Scrying
// Bombs
1 Time Walk
1 Future Sight
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist
// Tutor/Search
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
// Removal
1 Fire/Ice
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Swords to Plowshares
// SoLoMoxen
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
// Land
1 Strip Mine
1 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Shattering Pulse
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Plaguebearer
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares

This is the future of T1 folks... lets get to work.

(Eastman)\n\n

[Matt The Great]

Here's the Mirrodin Keeper I've been working on. It's much more radical of a design.

//NAME: Mirrodin Keeper
//Mana
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 City of Brass
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

//Primary Win Condition
1 Goblin Trenches

//Control
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice

//Card Advantage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
3 Isochron Scepter

//Card Manipulation
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Shattering Pulse
SB: 1 Disenchant

SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor

SB: 1 Balance

Several Paragons have said to add Chalices and Scepters to Keeper. I tried, and came up with this. This list is my educated guess as to what the Paragons are cooking up, based on posts made here on TMD and articles written for Starcity Games.

Mox Emerald is back, because between Chalices, Scepters, and Shamans, you have a LOT more use for fast, colorless mana.

With 12-13 cheap artifacts in the deck (Smmemen suggests 3 Chalices main), Academy becomes a sure thing. Smmemen's latest article mentions this, so I feel I'm on the right track here.

LoA is out of the deck. With the increased speed from lowering all the mana costs to as little as possible, you tend to play out your hand, rather than save cards up for LoA (which is easily disrupted anyway, by Duress). Getting a Brainstorm or Fire/Ice imprinted on a Scepter is better than LoA, anyway. LoA epitomizes the sort of slow, plodding, relentless control that is quickly falling out of the limelight in the face of quicker, more agile hunters. LoA:Scepter::Morphling:Psychatog

With Scepter->Fire AND two Shamans, you really do only need one dedicated win condition. Scepter is so good that you no longer need Future Sight nor LoA for card advantage. If I had to include one, Future Sight is more attractive. LoA is only good if you draw it in your opening hand, while Scepter and Future Sight are always useful.

Balance is out, curiously, despite it becoming more brutal with so many cheap, fast artifacts and especially Scepter (with its imprint mechanic, it makes for great Balance setups). So why is it out? Honestly, because it's just not that good against the best decks. It's pathetic against Long and Workshop, and only average against Tog. It's still probably needed against aggro decks, but I expect those to all but die out in Chalice's wake. Only Madness and possibly Stax and Fish will survive Chalice.

Chalice=1 is the best weapon Workshop can use against you, because it keeps Shaman off the board, as well as negating several cards. For this reason, I have a sideboarded Hurkyl's Recall - you only need to bounce long enough to get a Shaman in play, then eat whatever Chalices you feel like. It's also nifty against Grafted Skullcap, and it resets the other person's Scepters in the mirror. Can also set up Mind Twist, if you're lucky. These reasons (which can be summed up in the word 'flexibility') all make it better than a second Disenchant. It's also nice to have a Wishable artifact killer in three colors.

As I see it, there are only a few areas where this might need improvement:

1. Smmemen expects multicolored control to sport no less than three maindeck Chalices. Do I need a third, and if so, where to fit it?
2. The sided Gush could really be anything, with the most attractive candidates being another Chalice or Shaman or possibly Wasteland.
3. The exact mix of maindeck removal. Clearly STP and Fire/Ice are the choices, but what ratio to use? I've never been stuck with a Scepter and no cantrip to imprint while running 2 STP, 1 F/I, but if you don't see a lot of aggro, you could easily change it to 1/2.
4. Theoretically, you go -1 Academy, -1 Emerald, +1 Wasteland, +1 City of Brass. I prefer the explosiveness of the listed configuration, though.
5. The kill condition could be Decree of Justice or even Morphling, but I feel that Trenches is the best kill because it's multiple permanents (helps against Workshop) and reusable.\n\n

[MethodXL]

@MattTheGreat

       This might be a very stupid question, but isn't Fire/Scepter and Gorrila Shaman way to slow as a secondary kill? I think if the trenches route goes wrong, this alternate kill will give a lot of time for your opponent to squeeze out a victory.

      Another dumb question Matt, how do X spells work exactly with scepter?\n\n

[Eastman]

As far as the issues regarding the kill/mana base, I'd rather leave that discussion to another thread. I'm trying to generate some ideas for how to implement Mirrodin sucessfully- Keeper's kill and manabase are superflous to the central topic.

[Matt The Great]

In this case, the two topics are one and the same. You don't need a dedicated second kill card because your secondary and tertiary kill conditions are built right into the deck. This is made possible by Scepter - in Scepter we have a card that is card advantage, creature kill, and win condition all in one. This is Keeper's Psychatog.

[Tristal]

Scepter CAN imprint certain X spells (Starstorm, Volcanic Geyser) but it's going to do you very little good except for some VERY obscure situations (Under a Black Vise... Tar Pit Warrior in play... ) since you can't pay the X when you play the spell.

[rozetta]

I'd like to talk a little about the role of chalice in keeper and what I've found from some of the testing I've done so far. I hope this might provoke some thought when designing post-mirrodin versions of Keeper and how one might want to dramatically change what you currently consider as normal deck building practices for this deck.

In the limited testing I've done so far, I've found that Chalice for 1 is a very good play against a good deal of commonly played decks. The sheer number of good spells it nullifies is worth cutting off your own 1cc spells, even first turn. As an example, a chalice for 1 will do the following things:

Mono-black: stops ritual and duress openings and makes their yawgmoth's will ineffective. The slow-down is enough to allow you to build up some advantage assuming they don't draw too many hymns, strips and sinkholes. These decks are still a problem, since the creatures come in at 2cc and 3cc and a majority of the threat cards are at 2cc, which is where a good deal of keeper's cards lie. As a side effect, swords to plowshares is nullified, but alternatives such as smother or edict could be considered.

Sligh/Stompy: Well, we already know what a chalice for 1 will do to these decks in their current form.

Blue-based control: stops brainstorm. This might not sound like much, but for decks running a few less land and 4 brainstorm, this can stunt their mana development. It also renders red blasts and duress ineffective. As a side effect, ancestral, mystical and vampiric are also dead.

Rector-based combo: shuts down duress, therapy, dark ritual. This might be better than laying a chalice for 0 against them, since now they have no way of "forcing" their combo through. Again, shuts down vampiric, mystical and ancestral, as well as a few mana artifacts.

The matchups where chalice for 1 is less important are:

Long/academy style decks, where a chalice at zero is probably a better first number to set it at, but at one, it cripples nearly as much stuff.

Workshop-based decks, where zero might help to slow them down early game, and setting it at anything else is going to be difficult and not so useful.

Dragon - I haven't seen any of the newer lists, but it seems that it might be somwhat ineffective set to anything but 2.

Mask - naturally, 2 would be the ideal setting, but doing that before mask hits the table would probably be difficult.

When we look at the above short analysis, it's apparent that we want to minimize the impact chalice has on our own spells, especially relative to the speed at which a chalice of a given value will enter play. Since a chalice at 1 will be almost the most common play, minimizing one mana spells might be worth a thought (i.e. cutting brainstorm). Note also that swords to plowshares and red elemental blast are commonly rendered useless in this case.

While it would be difficult to minimize 2 mana spells, there will be times when a chalice for 2 is necessary to maintain the lock on your opponent. The most obvious cases of this would be playing against mask or dragon. Cutting off mana drain is the most crippling drawback of setting chalice at 2. The next most troublesome side effect is cutting off isochron scepter and all it's targets.

A chalice at zero shouldn't bother keeper too much, but note that two chalices at both 0 and 1 would render yawgmoth's will quite ineffective.

While I've hinted at some possible changes (such as a wider variety of removal, redesign without using brainstorm), there may be other avenues to explore, depending on how much focus this deck wants to keep on the chalice.

For instance, one idea I've been toying with is a build containing utility artifacts, with workshops for additional acceleration. This build unfortunately lacks in some areas, for instance, it has fewer strip effects. However, it makes up for the lower amount of control elements with the ability to consitently drop early chalices, while being a little faster and more combo-like and more resistance to the chalice itself. Further testing is needed, but I just wanted to illustrate that there might be the possibility of going further on the redesign than simply swapping a few maindeck cards for scepters and chalices.

Just some food for thought...

[Zherbus]

Eastman, this wouldn't happen to be inspired by playing me, eh?

I would love nothing more than to show what I've settled on (it changed from last we played), but I've got to honor a teammates request for a little while. What I will say is this: Chalice slows down the game to where Keeper wants it to be.

@Matt: Scepter isn't Keeper's Psychatog; Decree is. It is, in most cases, an unfair card that steals games. Scepter is overhyped, but does good enough to warrant a spot in some peoples listings.

[Eastman]

@Zherbus

I completely agree with you... Chalice slows down the game. It works at any number towards the 'control' end.  It's the best thing  I've seen in Keeper in awhile.

... at the time we tested, our builds were nearly identical. I think the changes are fairly intuitive.

I will admit that game did convince me to add a 2nd dedicated kill... you know I had you   .

[hippie tourach]

I disagree with the statement that has been made that Isochron Scepter can replace LoA, or that it is better than LoA.

First of all, I do not see how Brainstorm on Scepter, which requires an investment of 2 mana per turn, can be better than a land which can supply mana. Even if you could make the case that Scepter is better, it's definitely not faster. LoA can tap for a card per turn without using any other mana sources or losing a card when played. That's not slow or plodding by any means.

How does Keeper play out its hand more now than before? It has as many counterspells, as many lands, cards that can sit in hand for a while. It has Chalice, which is usually dropped early, but no longer has other drops like Sylvan Library and Zuran Orb, and Emerald depending on your build. It also has multiple Cunning Wish and high-cost cards like Future Sight, Mind Twist, and Yawgmoth's Will. In fact, with Chalice forcing some spells to stay in hand and Isochron Scepter drawing every turn (if it works as planned), Keeper will have a full hand perhaps even more often than before. Perhaps Keeper is more explosive than before, but it definitely doesn't play with an empty hand. Above all, Library of Alexandria is an extremely versatile mana source, and, its 'image' aside, a necessity in Neo-Keeper.

As for Isochron Scepter, unlike Chalice, I'm not yet convinced that it adds that much. Fire/Ice on Scepter sounds nice, but first of all does a rules person know whether you get to choose the card each time you copy it or only when it is imprinted? Does a split card count as two cards? Could Night/Day be imprinted?

In any case, I doubt the deck needs a shock per turn to kill weenies with the addition of Chalice, so it seems to me the main use of Isochron Scepter will be for Brainstorm, or possibly Mana Drain. There's not much else I would bother to imprint. Ancestral would be nice, but usually it's best to slip Ancestral in before control has too many counters or early against combo/aggro to find answers. Scepter can make a lot of spells easier to counter. If Brainstorm is the main target, we're trying to combo a 3-4x card with a 2-3x card. Not to mention the fact that you probably played Brainstorm already unless Scepter was in hand. Brainstorm is good first turn for set up, or in a counterwar. It's not usually sitting in your hand. What I'm getting at first of all is that Scepter will often be dead in hand without anything to imprint.

Secondly, when you do have something to imprint, what's the benefit of doing it? You've held it this far into the game, where it might have helped you earlier. You won't be able to play it this turn unless you have 4 available mana. Any following turn that you play other spells, you might not be able to use it. In the long run, it comes down to this. Against combo, it's dead. Against control, it can be very strong but it will probably just pull a counter. And it's hard to win a counterwar when you can't play or pitch the Brainstorm in your hand. Against aggro, Keeper should be fine anyway.

That's why I'm not planning to run Scepter in Keeper.

[EDIT: Here's my build, sans sideboard, for reference. I will bold notable card choices.]

//Schwenkler Keeper
/Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish

/Control
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Mind Twist
1 Fire/Ice
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

/Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Future Sight
4 Brainstorm
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

/Kill
1 Decree of Justice
1 Goblin Trenches

/Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 City of Brass
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard is irrelevent in my opinion. It's similar to those above.\n\n

[DigDug]

Quote (hippie tourach @ Oct. 06 2003,13:48)Fire/Ice on Scepter sounds nice, but first of all does a rules person know whether you get to choose the card each time you copy it or only when it is imprinted? Does a split card count as two cards? Could Night/Day be imprinted?

From the FAQ: If the copied card is a split card, you may choose to play either side of the split card, but not both. (The split cards Fire/Ice, Illusion/Reality, Night/Day, Stand/Deliver, and Wax/Wane all have at least one side with converted mana cost 2 or less.)

[BillTheDuck]

Whoa! Hippie Tourach, back from the dead.

Anyway, I think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to test four chalices from the start. You can always decrease later, but I would guess that chalices aren't too bad in multiples, and having them early is clearly the best time.

As for scepters, I'm still unsure as to how they should fit in keeper. If I were to make a list right now, I wouldn't include them. I think they are better in Ur where there are more targets for them.

[Eastman]

I haven't had a problem discarding to make a scepter work...


And they have proven indispensable in a number of circumstances.

I will caution however that I haven't been completely sold on scepter yet. Chalice is definite, I consider scepter to be 'still in testing'

That's why I came to the forum, I'd like to hear broader testing results.

[Matt The Great]

Firstly, an admission of ignorance. This is directed mainly at Zherbus and Eastman, but all are of course welcome to chine in: is Decree really 'all that'? I'm hoping to defer to testing, as I can more than see the theory behind it on my own.

Wait a second. How in the world does U/r have MORE options to imprint on Scepter?

As has been stated, yes, you can imprint a Fire/Ice on a Scepter, and with each activation choose whether to Fire or Ice. If this were not the case, I would likely agree that Scepters are not mean for this deck.

Scepter vs LoA

This question is not one that can be examined in isolation. To understand why I feel LoA is past its prime, you need to take into consideration not only the entire deck, but the decks you expect to face.

Quote First of all, I do not see how Brainstorm on Scepter, which requires an investment of 2 mana per turn, can be better than a land which can supply mana.

It's better firstly in sheer effect. A Brainstorm every turn is a flat-out superior effect to a simple draw each turn. It's also beter in that there are no further restrictions on when you can use the ability, apart from the mana consideration - and it's far easier to devote two mana per turn than it is to keep a full hand (or, god forbid, have to build your hand back up to seven, a feat that is near-impossible for Keeper facing a good deck).

Lastly, LoA's mana-generating abilities are largely a ruse. I trust that we all can agree that the ability to tap for mana is merely a bonus ability, and not a deciding factor in whether or not to play the card. Secondly, LoA is a pathetic mana producer. For the investment of a precious land-drop, you essentially assure yourself of not getting Drain mana available until your third turn. This is unacceptable in the increasingly-fast-paced world that is Type One. And remember, this is assuming you've drawn LoA in your opening hand, when it SHOULD be at its most powerful. Drawn any later, and its value decreases exponentially.

Quote How does Keeper play out its hand more now than before?

Chalice is meant to be dropped ASAP. There's of course the additional Mox, but also the additional Shaman. Scepter, too, is something that drags your handsize down, out of LoA-range. So there is a real choice to made between Scepter and Library. I hope to demonstrate in later paragraphs why I believe Scepter to be the better choice.

Quote Perhaps Keeper is more explosive than before, but it definitely doesn't play with an empty hand.

This is true. I do not deny this. However, you will notice that there's a sizable difference between "not having an empty hand" and "having a full hand". Plainly put, Keeper does not have the number of card-drawing effects to ever reactivate a deactivated Library. Contrast this with Psychatog decks, that run Keeper's entire draw engine, PLUS Deep Analysis and Accumulated Knowledge. You'll also notice that Future Sight does not refill your hand, and so does not help activate LoA.

The above paragraph is rendered moot, however, if LoA is never deactivated in the first place. And oh, what a magnificient world it would be if we could guarantee a perpetually active Library in every deck, and a chicken in every pot. But the truth is that, opposing decks being what they are, you can't afford to wait to answer a threat. Opposing decks have too much pressure and too many ways of disrupting the Library (most notably Duress' rise in popularity) to lean on it.

Quote What I'm getting at first of all is that Scepter will often be dead in hand without anything to imprint.

Two points come to mind. Firstly, it is important to realize that you do not need to set up the "perfect Scepter" - almost anything you CAN imprint will make Scepter a powerful card. This means you don't need to "save" instants to imprint, as long as you can rest assured that you'll draw some (and for this, Cunning Wish counts, because you easily convert it into a Scepterable instant). This necessitates a large-scale rdesign of the deck, and you'll notice that my given list is light on the un-Scepterable cards. In practice I am rarely, if ever, caught with a Scepter and no suitable instant to imprint. This did happen when I was playing with four Scepters, but having reduced my count to three, it has not happened since.

I think that's all I have to say.

-Matt\n\n

[MisterShark]

Two quick things to add:
#1. Enjoy playing multiple Chalices while you can; I'm no Nostradamus, but I have a funny feeling that their time on the unrestricted list is ticking.

#2. As far a sideboard target (Wishable) for Scepter: what about Abeyance?  Cantrip + control with each activation.  I admit, I have not tested this but wanted to bounce it off everybody in the thinktank.  I'm going to try and squeeze it into my board and give it a whirl.

@Eastman
great thread topic; this is the tastiest and freshest discussion I've enjoyed reading in a while.  Hope I added a little sumth'n to it.\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote @Eastman
great thread topic; this is the tastiest and freshest discussion I've enjoyed reading in a while.  Hope I added a little sumth'n to it.

Thanks, I only wish the best players on this site weren't restricted from commenting by their petty team secrecies.

Quote (MisterShark @ Oct. 06 2003,20:58)Two quick things to add:
#1. Enjoy playing multiple Chalices while you can; I'm no Nostradamus, but I have a funny feeling that their time on the unrestricted list is ticking.

#2. As far a sideboard target (Wishable) for Scepter: what about Abeyance?  Cantrip + control with each activation.  I admit, I have not tested this but wanted to bounce it off everybody in the thinktank.  I'm going to try and squeeze it into my board and give it a whirl.

Abeyance is a good thought, it ought to at least be tested. I don't like devoting too many slots in the SB to scepter targets with only 2 scepters main and the 3 cunning wishes. Perhaps a build with a 4th wish and more scepters (like matt's) would be the appropriate place to test these kinds of ideas....\n\n

[westredale]

\n\n

[hippie tourach]

Quote It's better firstly in sheer effect. A Brainstorm every turn is a flat-out superior effect to a simple draw each turn. It's also beter in that there are no further restrictions on when you can use the ability, apart from the mana consideration - and it's far easier to devote two mana per turn than it is to keep a full hand (or, god forbid, have to build your hand back up to seven, a feat that is near-impossible for Keeper facing a good deck).

A Brainstorm per turn is admittedly slightly better than a draw per turn, that is certainly true. To say that it's easier to pay two mana per turn than keep a full hand, however, is preposterous. One of Keeper's main goals is to keep a full hand. Aside from mana, almost all of the cards in the deck are either answers or draw cards. Besides which, don't forget that we discussing the merits of Library of Alexandria, which in my opinion does a damn good job of keeping your hand full.

Naturally drawing LoA in the middle game after land has been played, counterwars have occurred, and answers have been used, is not always useful. Wasteland is never useful against Sligh, but it's still worth putting 3 or 4 in.

Quote Lastly, LoA's mana-generating abilities are largely a ruse. I trust that we all can agree that the ability to tap for mana is merely a bonus ability, and not a deciding factor in whether or not to play the card. Secondly, LoA is a pathetic mana producer. For the investment of a precious land-drop, you essentially assure yourself of not getting Drain mana available until your third turn. This is unacceptable in the increasingly-fast-paced world that is Type One.

In that case, I'm very curious why I see 3 Wasteland in your deck.

Quote Chalice is meant to be dropped ASAP. There's of course the additional Mox, but also the additional Shaman. Scepter, too, is something that drags your handsize down, out of LoA-range. So there is a real choice to made between Scepter and Library. I hope to demonstrate in later paragraphs why I believe Scepter to be the better choice.

+3 Chalice
+1 Shaman
(Up until very recently, almost all Keeper decks ran both Emerald and LoA, so let's not count the mox. Presumably Scepter generates card advantage. If not, I don't see what the case for it is. So let's not say it drags our hand size down for fear of sounding foolish.)
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 Zuran Orb

Therefore the difference seems to be the addition of Chalice of the Void. As I already said, it may be an extra drop, but the net effect is an increase in your hand size, because whatever you drop it for you're blocking out at least 6 cards in your deck. Cards that you can't play tend to fill up your hand.

Quote This is true. I do not deny this. However, you will notice that there's a sizable difference between "not having an empty hand" and "having a full hand". Plainly put, Keeper does not have the number of card-drawing effects to ever reactivate a deactivated Library. Contrast this with Psychatog decks, that run Keeper's entire draw engine, PLUS Deep Analysis and Accumulated Knowledge. You'll also notice that Future Sight does not refill your hand, and so does not help activate LoA.

I admitted earlier that refilling an 'almost empty' hand is difficult. Outside of Yawgmoth's Will or Skeletal Scrying, it is not easy to draw cards in great quantity. So, for the purpose of argument, let's say that Library is a dead card if you draw it in the middle game. The fact that it is far, far from a dead card if you play it within the first few turns. To draw another analogy, take Mox Emerald. When you are topdecking in the middlegame, you probably don't have lands in hand, so Emerald is effectively identical to a deactivated Library (land, tap for colorless).

Therefore, given your problems with Library of Alexandria, I'm very shocked to see that your decklist includes both Mox Emerald and 3 Wastelands.

Quote The above paragraph is rendered moot, however, if LoA is never deactivated in the first place. And oh, what a magnificient world it would be if we could guarantee a perpetually active Library in every deck, and a chicken in every pot. But the truth is that, opposing decks being what they are, you can't afford to wait to answer a threat. Opposing decks have too much pressure and too many ways of disrupting the Library (most notably Duress' rise in popularity) to lean on it.

First of all, Keeper doesn't lean on any card, and it never has. One of its most major attributes is its veratility. LoA fits that attribute, because it works with certain strategies of Keeper, and in the other cases it contributes something too (tapping for mana is certainly a deciding factor in the card's playability).

LoA doesn't need always be active to be a good card, and this is the most basic and important idea I'm trying to make. No card is always active. Chalice of the Void has reminded us of this. The question is how often is a card active, and how powerful is it when active.

Library is active in most opening hands, or when drawn during the first few turns of the game. With an Ancestral Recall or Brainstorm, the first few turns covers almost a quarter of your deck. During the rest of the game, you are unlikely to draw more than another quarter of the deck. So let's approximate and say that half the time you play Library it will be active. Also remember that 'inactive' means it taps for 1 colorless (which is as active as Mox Emerald ever gets). When it is active, you draw twice as many cards per turn as you otherwise would.

That's one hell of an effect for a card that works half the time.

Unlike, I might add, Isochron Scepter, which only works if you have a proper card to imprint and enough mana to activate it. Most likely, Scepter will be active less than half of the time. Naturally that requires testing, but considering that it relies on cards which we tend to play immediately and requires a significant mana investment, I doubt that I am wrong.

A question for you, since you've tested. When you did get Scepter into play, how often did you use it (what % of turns)?

Quote Two points come to mind. Firstly, it is important to realize that you do not need to set up the "perfect Scepter" - almost anything you CAN imprint will make Scepter a powerful card. This means you don't need to "save" instants to imprint, as long as you can rest assured that you'll draw some (and for this, Cunning Wish counts, because you easily convert it into a Scepterable instant). This necessitates a large-scale rdesign of the deck, and you'll notice that my given list is light on the un-Scepterable cards. In practice I am rarely, if ever, caught with a Scepter and no suitable instant to imprint. This did happen when I was playing with four Scepters, but having reduced my count to three, it has not happened since.

Imprinting a StP against control? Mana Drain against Sligh? You may often have an instant to Scepter, but it's certainly not true that anything will make Scepter powerful. And waiting for an instant to imprint is hardly concurrent with the new "explosive" nature of Keeper that you talk about.

[Matt The Great]

If I was going to try a Scepter-lock, Chant would seem better, no? Abeyance won't stop artifacts or attacks.

[BillTheDuck]

Well, quickly to answer Matt's question, I didnt mean Ur has more options, just the deck runs more mass of

[-CF-]

I'm curious as to why Skeletal Scrying etc got the axe. Also, isn't this chalice plan (which I assume involves X=1 or 2) sort of messing up the Scepter plan (where CC=1 or 2)?

--
Chris

[Maxx Matt]

Quote (Matt The Great @ Oct. 06 2003,16:32)is Decree really 'all that'? I'm hoping to defer to testing, as I can more than see the theory behind it on my own.

The two things that convince me after testing, that Decree is THE Winning Condition Rigt Now are Crucial:

1) I'm not always able to think to win a counter war agaisnt the Counter/Duress wall of Hulk, Ur-Phid, Shining and maybe other Keepers Build... so having and Uncounterable Cicling MysticalTutorable IstantSpeed Winning card is one of the crazyest thing printed for a keeper build.

2) It is not blu, it isn't ReBlastable and drawing it in the middle game let you to capitalize in a "Cantripping Way" the total amount of mana that your deck has procudced until now.

I fear to have this card in my deck ONLY if Keeper's Mirror or Ur-Phid match would become more frequent or if I would See An Old Superman Being Successfully Casted against me, with my Bad Pletora of Weenies facing him and the Lone Poor Balance to fight his flying and his untargettable ability...


@hippietourach: I'm with you in the LoA vs. Scepter argue.  Adding something to your arguments, I can say that LoA can fear a control Player so much to let him doing move unexepected, risky and not really productive ONLY to sltop you from having a full hand and a "2for1" rate between Yours and His Card Drawn


@
If I can, I would articulate somethign better in my poor English.
I would say to you all that from my testing results the interaction between the 2 new Mirrodin Artifact and The Deck are "so so" and not so Gamebreaking.

I'm not talking about situation when you have Chalice OR Scepter in play ( these are Dreming situation during which Your Shamano beatdown ridiculize your opponent stopped by 1 or 2 chalices or during which you are tapping only 2 every turn to produce a CONTINUOUS benefic effect from one or two among your spell.

The best cc for the cotv are zero if we are in the first turn or one from the second. So I'm not telling thing about not so frequent possible use of the cotv.

The situation I'm referring to is the one when you have BOTH chalice ( cc=1 ) AND scepter in play.


If a chalice or two is setted to zero or one, your only ways to imprint a scepter are Mana Drain or Fire/Ice.
If you have imprinted an early x=1 Spell to produce effects ( removals, drawings, cantrips etc...) maybe to break the game in a productive way, but then YOU HAVE TO set a cotv to 1 for slowing down your opponnent, you HAVE achieved THIS goal but you have SHUTTED down YOU REAL an ONLY GAME BREAKER and EVERY 1 cc spell that you have in hand AND every Imprinted Spell.

cotv x=1... It denys alot agaisnt you opponnent but it denys to you all your brainstorms, stp, ancestrall, SIDE solution, and shut down previuously casted scepter with those same imprinted cards.

Only Having at least 3 Scepters in the deck you could be sure of drawing it with an enough consistency that could assure you to reply the scepter with the imprinted low cc spell in the early game, to lose the functionality of the scepter due to the cotv and THEN replacing the old Scepeter with a new one with different but gamebreaking ability ( Drain and or Fire/Ice )

These are good combination, but with a really huge cost for this deck: MANA and THE possibility of playing during the EoT of your opponent.

If you  think about Chalices as Some Removals-Impulse replacement so their introduction is really positive.

If you think about Scepter as a Skeletal Scrying Replacement ... so I'm not convinced that should be the swap to do to improve this deck. Skeletal wins you game UNDER cotv setted at virtually ANY cost. Skeletal is ISTANT SPEED and NOT mana INTENSIVE. if the cotv freezes the game for you, then you can virtually spend a lot of your life points to draw cards and win game. Wishes let you to be ready for answering to unpredictable spell of your opponents.

Testing results are a bit controversial just now, so I'm not COMPLETELY sure if Keeper perform better with either cotv and scepters or only with one of them ( i prefer chalice of course... ), but what I've said until now need to be taken as a possible CONTADDICTICTORY STRATEGY of this renewed deck.


I' trying to replace some of 1 cc mana fixer with the Impulse and adding more F/I not to be obliged to stop my own game casting a cotv x=1, who is HUGE against too much decks not to be casted.


For Reference:

(27)
4 fetchland
3 underground
3 tundra
3 volcanic
1 academy
1 loa
4 waste
1 strip
7 solomoxen

(9)
3 cotv
1 stp
2 f/i
2 shaman
1 balance

(8)
4 drain
4 fow

(10)
3 impulse
3 brainstorm
1 ancestral
2 skeletal / 2 scepters
1 fof

(3)
1 mindtwist
1 yawgmoth's will
1 walk

(4)
2 wish
1 demonic
1 mistycal

(2)
2 decree

wishable targets form the side

3 reb
1 disenchant
1 H.recall
1 sword
1 pulse
1 coffin purge

there will be some other wishable targets if I'll definitely begin to play with scepters, but until now I have only these ones

my 2 cent


----------
Maxx Matt
----------

@CF wrote 2 line during the time I wrote 200 and he explain better what I would have said to you ...       \n\n

[rozetta]

Incidentally, that was what I was hinting at in my previous (rather long) post. In testing, I was occasionally shutting down my scepters, turning even more of my cards into dead draws. The power of the scepter cannot be denied, but I believe chalice's power-level will easily override this.

Not only might you need to play the chalice for 2 against a good deal of decks, your opponent will almost definitely want to play a chalice for 2 against you. A chalice at 2 kills some of the most powerful effects in keeper - mana drain, time walk, demonic tutor, balance.

This arguement alone suggests the need for extra flexibility in casting costs, especially when a good deal of Keeper's key cards are currently at 1 and 2 mana.

[Eastman]

Would it be worth tweaking the draw and manipulation element to reduce the emphasis on 1 and 2 casting cost spells?

Skeletal Scrying, for instance, could be used despite chalice at nearly any number.

A 4th Cunning wish could also be a useful resplacement for some of the existing 2 casting cost flak.

Thoughts?\n\n

[-CF-]

At least you need answers to Chalice at various casting costs. People currently have Shaman at 1 and Cunning Wish at 3 (for Rack and Ruin (3) or Shattering Pulse (2)). I think a maindeck Seal of Cleansing will be warranted in the coming metagame. This will give you answers at three CCs.

Chalices, stall, big Mind Twist, shaman annoying chalices, go crazy. Seems like one way to circumvent both your own and opposing chalices. Not the safest bet in the world, though.

My initial reaction to chalice is that a control deck really needs to be immune - or close to immune - to its drawback at certain casting costs. In T1, that means leaving out spells at CC 0, 1, 2 or 3. Good luck with that. )

--
Chris

[Zherbus]

Since snipits from conversations with me about Keeper are falling into this thread, I might as well post my list. This was my last working decklist. In fact when I last played Eastman, I still had Scepters in it, but they came out. I'm not going to get into why now, but I'm sure some of you will figure it out with some playtesting.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

3 Chalice of the Void
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Impulse
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Skeletal Scrying

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Decree of Justice

2 Gorilla Shaman

1 Goblin Trenches

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 COP: Red
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void

[rozetta]

Or possibly another radical idea would be this - drop the shaman, since if your deck is prepared to run under chalice for 0,1 and 2 (most likely the most common settings), there's no problem facing it.

Cunning wish is a fairly safe way of getting answers, and there's always the option of running Dismantling Blow as a 3cc answer, at the very least in side. Remember to vary your wishable creature answers, since chalice for 1 shuts down Swords. I'd think it might make good sense to run Abyss maindeck again (4cc is pretty safe).

As far as 2cc spells to drop, there's not a lot of chaff there to cut. I'd suggest Fire/Ice as one possibility, maybe Impulse as another. Basically, superfluous cards which don't belong in Keeper's "base".

As far as scepter with fire/ice goes, I know it's a pretty flexible answer (expensive icy, cheap tome, better scroll). I just wonder if people are too fixated on it - I know I was initially. Personally, I found scepter + mana drain is better.  I suppose it depends on the direction you're taking your build, and of course, the local metagame (yes, people will still play sligh and gayblins despite an overwhelmingly obvious reason not to).

[Grendal]

Chalice in keeper…   hrmmm

Although I think Chalice is probably one of the best cards to come out of Mirrodin, I am not so sure it warrants even being played by Keeper.   Now before anyone jumps me for this one, let me at least share my theory.

The fact that Chalice has entered the metagame to begin with is huge.   The effect this has can much be compared to a lot of Keeper players in the past exchanging out Stroke of Genius or the like for Skeletal Scrye in fear of facing Misdirection.   Misdirection was not played by all, in fact only a few decks actually incorporated them, but the entire metagame shifted in fear that they might be present at any given time.

So this leads me to think that perhaps fitting a card like Chalice into Keeper, at least in terms of a main deck card might not be warranted.   The fact that artifact hate will surely go up in the metagame as a whole, and the fact that decks will shift in design so as to be competitive, if they were to face a Chalice, really brings about the question as to rather or not we should really actually play the Chalice at all, opting instead to shift our deck into a better draw engine via the scepter, and working off the fear, that Chalice generates without having to actually play it ourselves.

I think enough decks  (Long / Goblins / Etc…) will shift in design and play style enough, that actually incorporating the Chalice main deck our selves, might be a detriment in the end.    I love what Chalice does, but I more often than not find it annoying myself.   This is not to say its not firmly doing its job versus my opponent, but Keeper decks taking on the Chalice is almost along the same lines that Roy Spires attempted to use, to backup his claim that packing Blood Moons in a deck with nothing but dual lands was a good thing, based purely on the assumption that it screws your opponent more than it does yourself.   Although this is a viable argument I suppose, I don’t think it is in Keeper’s best interest to hurt itself intentionally.

I think that perhaps Keeper players rather than focusing on making Chalice a main deck staple, might find it more advantageous to attempt to use and abuse (break if u will) Isochron Scepter.   Undoubtedly either Chalice of the Void or Mishra’s Workshop will see some restriction anyways.

I don’t know…  those are just my thoughts on the card.   Not to say I won’t be packing Chalices myself, come the next tourney.   However,  I am defiantly going to begin a heck of a lot more testing than I have thus far, because I am still not quite convinced that main deck chalice is the way to go.

- Grendal

[Eastman]

From one scepter to the next... keeper has gone full circle  

[Montana_Gamer]

why not cut one chalice and run a vampiric tutor in its place, this allows alot more flexiblity, expecially in decks that want to run the scepter.

{edit} I mean being able to tutor for a card to imprint when you topdeck a scepter midgame, or tutoring for a scepter when you have a card to imprint, and the time/mana to imprint it. I could see how this situation could be seen as a win more scenario, and it would be probably 50% percent of the time, but the other 50% percent this could be the last push needed to take control of the game.{/edit}\n\n