[Article] Old School v. The New School

[Smmenen]

"Type One is becoming more and more in its dynamics like Type Two, and some Type One players don't like it. What it really boils down to is that a good many players have invested in a format they thought was casual - and although they built good, competitive decks, tested them and tuned them, even went to GenCon to play it out, what they now have come to realize, is that Type One has finally arrived, and it wasn't what they bargained for."

Click Me

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Milton]

Quote One concern expressed about Type One is that if it gets truly competitive, there will only be a handful of viable decks, or even a single deck. If one deck dominates, the solution is obvious and easy: restrict a key card. I'd say that former is true of almost every format - from Type Two to Extended, there are generally only a handful of "tier one" decks. But that doesn't mean other decks aren't worth playing or that the format is dumb. Tier Two decks can, and do, win tournaments in other formats as well. It's often worse in a format like Type Two, because it doesn't have the extensive card pool to exploit metagame opportunities. With Type One, there is such an incredible range of options that mining them is difficult.

This is brilliant and well stated.  The format is wide open and innovation is everywhere.  Good job.  And, a very nice article.

[Eastman]

I bet that draws a few more into the format.

[Fastbond]

Both MaskNaught and Rector based decks use dark ritual.  If you look at Rector based decks like Turbo Spaz that don't use dark ritual you'll find that Rector comes out incredibly slow.  MaskNaught also uses ritual and relies on it for it's speed.  Some Dragon builds also use ritual.  So restricting ritual would slow things down aside from some dragon variants.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Your article is superb steve.  I am in complete agreement with you about the desire to make type 1 a more competitive format.

I do however disagree with you with regard to...

Quote Some people are very upset with this. They want the format to be slowed down a notch. They claim a lack of interaction and too many decks winning on turn 2. The first response to this is that a fundamental turn 2, as I have said before, is not equal to a turn 2 loss. Please remind people of this when they claim that games are over by turn 2. They are missing the point.

But in many cases the fundamental turn 2 IS equal to a loss.  Any competitive combo deck (read: long, tps, rector, dragon) is capable of a turn 2 win.  Combo is also more widely played now than it has ever been.  And in many competitve metagames combo makes up a large portion of the decks to beat.

Quote The second response is that this is straw-manning of these decks for the reason that it isn't that they win too much, but that they are just undesirable to play against. That is not an argument for restriction... Especially when you consider that the DCI restricts for tournament play. If the deck isn't winning too much, then if you are losing to it, you need to play a deck that has a chance, or at least make some metagame decisions. That isn't asking too much. People do the same in Type Two and Extended all the time.

If the "not fun to play against" deck doesn't win too much then there is no problem.  At least that's what spike would say.  But what if it were the case that every viable deck in the format was "not fun to play against" AND they were all equal in terms of winning percentages?  And thus no "not fun to play against" deck wins too much, what then?

A format that degenerates into only decks that are "not fun to play against" because of a gross lack of player interaction is a problem.  It is not healthy for the continued success of this format and can only lead to its decline.  I think that is the point the old schoolers are trying to make.



With regard to many of the other metagame based arguements you make against the old schoolers pushing for a slower game, ie. that it is simply impossible, or that blue based control will be too good again, I can only suggest that type 1 deck builders will innovate and find solutions to these problems.  As you said, the format is just beginning to come into its own.  New players bring new ideas and new foils to old decks.  My only concern is that the game be slowed enough for those foils to be viable.

[Smmenen]

I've been thinking about it - and I think I made a huge mistake adopting the "fundamental turn" phraseology.

First of all, it is a huge misnomer.  Second of all, I think that it completely covers up the key points: first, that each deck has its own habits, and drawing a line through them like a needle through a thread is very dangerous.

I may have inadvertendly argued against my own point by bringing that up.

Almost none of the decks win consistently on turn two except for long.  If you take long out of hte equation, the fastest deck is the rector or Dragon deck.  Dragon is generally better and while dragon wins alot (20% of the time or so) on turn 2, and Diceman claims an average of turn three.  I actually think the average is probably like 3.65 or something like that becuase there are so many games where you intentionally draw the game out and so the average skews strongly upward.  Btw, 3.6 is the same average as stompy.  I thought i'd just point that out - a friend did some math on that.

Steve

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote I actually think the average is probably like 3.65 or something like that becuase there are so many games where you intentionally draw the game out and so the average skews strongly upward.  Btw, 3.6 is the same average as stompy.  I thought i'd just point that out - a friend did some math on that.

Ah, but stompy is not a "not fun to play against" deck.  It swings with creatures and casts giant growth   And of course you're also talking about stompy undisrupted.  Your articles on star city suggest that long can win on turn 3 or earlier with frequency even through disruption.\n\n

[herby]

very well written

[Matt The Great]

This is probably your best article yet.

[Smmenen]

Quote (Phantom Tape Worm @ Oct. 21 2003,19:50)

Quote I actually think the average is probably like 3.65 or something like that becuase there are so many games where you intentionally draw the game out and so the average skews strongly upward.  Btw, 3.6 is the same average as stompy.  I thought i'd just point that out - a friend did some math on that.

Ah, but stompy is not a "not fun to play against" deck.  It swings with creatures and casts giant growth   And of course you're also talking about stompy undisrupted.  Your articles on star city suggest that long can win on turn 3 or earlier with frequency even through disruption.

No Long wins on turn ONE against disruption.  I think out of 40 games I featured, one game went to turn 4, right?

A big part of the article is that we have a:

"Convergence of Controversies"[/i][/u]

By that I mean that Chalice and the rise of Long, prompted in part by my articles (as far as I can tell), have made people angry.  As well they should.  BUT I think this anger is being unfairly channeled against Workshop.  The result is that anger over multiple things has made the outcry over workshop much stronger than it should be.


All I ask is that we let the metagme play out.  If workshop needs to be axed - axe the hell out of it.  Just let's wait and find out first.  Isn't that reasonable?

Steve\n\n

[Montana_Gamer]

Damn Good article, I really like new type 1, I was mad at first, because playing against the new decks wasn't very much fun, but then i started to play them, and even if i don't play a tier 1 deck now, i can still go to a tournament and play tier 2 decks that are a blast, and if i get good enough matchups i can still win with a tier 2 deck, where the tier 1 decks, The Deck and academy always won before.

[Cuandoman]

That may be the best T1 theory article I've ever read... honestly.

[Magimaster]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!


Starcity is down!!!

Help!!!! I really wanna read this!!!


EDIT: Thank you very much, Dr Sylvan. ^_^\n\n

[dandan]

If you believe that apart from Long, the fastest combo deck is one that wins in 3,65 turns, I would suggest that you have missed TPS and NeoAcademy.

I do, however, back the wait and see approach as there are far too many things going in with the introduction of Mirrodin to be able to accurately predict the metagame effect of restricting certain cards. (I expect and support the restriction of Chrome Mox and Spoils based on existing criteria for restrictions)

[Hanzalot]

by Fastbond:

Quote Both MaskNaught and Rector based decks use dark ritual

I just want to point out that the best Masknaught deck (Vengeur Masque w/ black) is not using Dark Ritual.

@Smmenen: That article was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm not even that competitive and I still agree with you on practically every point. Furthermore it was just extremely well-written - a pure joy to read.

Your point about the viability of playing tier 2 decks is dead on. These deck finishes in the top spots at every tournament. The fact that a deck isn't exactly "tier 1" should NOT stop anyone from playing it if it's their favorite.

Great article!\n\n

[rozetta]

Excellent article. I really like the fact that you've crystallized the key points to the current wave of arguements regarding the post-Mirrodin metagame in a well written essay. It seems obvious that given the fact that we haven't seen a single post-mirrodin tournament result here, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions about the restriction of cards.

It's a shame the discussion thread on Star City regarding yours and Oscar's articles is so horrendously bad. I mean, after reading both of those interesting and well-written articles and then seeing posts like "I read two paragraphs and got bored" or "they should ban the power 9", it really does show the mentality of the idiots we have to deal with all the time. Thankfully we have this site to debate things in a constructive, intellectual manner.

On the point of LED, dark ritual and workshop - one thing to note is that workshop is not a storm-enabler. I think we'll find that as long as we have storm cards, cheap spells which create more mana than they cost will be found in combo decks, making it more likely, IMO, for Dark Ritual to see a restriction than workshop does, especially taking into account Yawgmoth's Will. As a side note, I think someone also already pointed this out before, but the turn 1 combo of ritual, duress, hymn has a pretty high probability of winning you the game against just about any deck (and this play is not that infrequent either).

Another thing to remember is that as good an accelerant as workshop is, the cards it casts are nowhere near as good as the selection you get from non-artifact spells. Note also Arthur's article which was also on Starcity today - those decks got effectively hated out by a variety of spells, so change is possible without restriction.

[SliverKing]

I thought the article was well written, and the point about letting the metagame settle a bit before going off half-cocked re: chalice or workshop was well put.    
I do think we all realize that Spoils of the Vault and the New Mox are direct-to-restricted-list cards...  Just as easily as Mox Diamond and Consult. Anyone thats tested those cards anyway...
I honestly believe that we dont need to wait on the metagame to see that LED needs to go either.
With those 3 cuts I think we could live quite happily until the next review... give everyone time to adapt.  Yeah, it would be a time of wild fluctuation, but it would let our more creative types realy flesh out the format and prove one way or hte other whats broken.
In my OPINION, workshop(already borderline, pushed over the top due to chalice) and ritual(combo style, not negators) will end up joining the list, but if the previous cuts were made I'd be glad to see how the format evolved... maybe be proven wrong.
I still stand behind my belief that a fundamental turn 2 is bad for the format... but I dont think a mass restriction in the middle of the chaos (and the cardpool brought to us by mirroden is exactly that) is the smartest way to fix it.  restrict the clear offenders, then take a second swipe in march.

[MoreFling]

Although it's a well written article, there's a clear 'hidden message' that part of long should be restricted (they are mentioned infinitely thoughout the article), yet it also tries to make sure workshop doesn't get restricted. Apart from the fact that the decicions will be made over a month from now, it its clearly pointing out restrictions canditates, and trying to defend the workshop. (and raising suspicion upon mana drain?!)
However, Steve doesn't just (outright) say it, he covers it up.\n\n

[chaosdjinn]

"If not a single new set was ever printed again, Magic would probably wither - something you break out once in a while to play with your friends - but esoteric, like Contra on the Nintendo. As Magic grows older, its roots will become more sacred, more important. While change lies at the very appeal of the game, the foundation must be kept up. While Type Two, Limited, and Extended may be the money centers, Type One is the heart of Magic. It represents a spark of something original, the genius of human creativity. In spite of its gargantuan design flaws, perpetual imbalances, and powerful nature, it also demonstrates that chaos can be tamed."

Steven,
Great article...especially the above paragraph.  I have been following the pulse of the game from its infancy with my original 100+ card deck starting in January 1994 and nowhere has another writer shown the insight into the chaotic nature of Magic as your article expressed.  Below is an article I posted on the Dojo some years ago.  Enjoy!
Matt




Subject: The Future of Magic
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:34:21 +0000
From: "Matt F"
To: fkusumot@ix.netcom.com

You may ask..."who is THIS guy writing this article?"

He's never been on a pro-tour...he doesn't play Arena league...hell,
he doesn't even have a DCI number!!!

Well, I have been around just as long...if not longer...
than ALL of you...

My spirit has walked the planes through the wars of
the Djinns and Efreets on Rabiah...I have studied in the Library of
Alexandria, while trading in the growing number of Bazaars in
Baghdad. I participated in the fallout from the Brother's War-
utilizing the multifaceted tools produced to guide my spirit through
the growing number of planes being discovered. I have summoned the
power and prestige of the mightiest of artifacts and Legends from
times lost. I have seen even the holiest tainted through the Dark
times while witnessing the fall of the mighty empires.  Frozen saliva
encrusted my beard through the dawning of the Ice age only to be
transformed into sweat on my chest in the heat of the Mirage. I have
travelled to lands near and far within my imagination that served as
the birthplace for myth and reality within this multifaceted diamond
in which we exist. I have ridden the tempestuous tradewinds and
witnessed the change that Magic has produced, endured, and succumbed
to.

Aaah...the innocence of life...the innocence of
imagination...travelling the planes as the inner child's fancy is
tickled.  All the while watching...listening...feelin g YOUR
reactions to the one element that Magic: The Gathering offers, the
one element that embraces your lives, but clouds your minds....the
element of change.
 I have listened to the criticisms-"Green sucks," the
complaints"zzz is just a watered down version of xxx'", the claims-
"Is magic dead?"  As long as there's the ProTour, new sets released
in stores, and newsgroups available on the net to air
grievances/share deck ideas/etc., the 'game,' that is, the Industry
of Magic: The Gathering won't die. However, what sets this game apart
from other human endeavors in the area of entertainment is what is
being neglected as we approach the dawning of the new milennium- the
game's spirit.
It is my estimation that the original premise upon which this game
was formed was to provide social entertainment wrapped in
intellectual challenge bound by the element of change.  These three
facets of the core purpose of the game result in producing it's
"spirit." Let's look at that more in depth:

1. Social Entertainment:
        People (read- planeswalkers) gathering together for the purpose of
being involved in BOTH producing and experiencing
entertainment existing BETWEEN all those involved.   It is my sense
that some people's ego-generated difficulties have lessened their
interpersonal awareness  and results in the "beat the snot out of you
or I'm going home crying" attitude that exists around many game
tables across this vast planet.  If you "need" to win with every deck
you build, or every match you play, then maybe focusing your high
powered perceptual microscope at yourself and your
relationg-to-others attitudes would be helpful for you both as a
Magic player and as a human being. The person or persons engaged in
the game with you are not really your enemies...However, they are the
flip side of the coin of the *experience* of which you are a part.
Whether you're playing with the World Champion, or the 12 year old
just learning Magic, treat them with the respect they deserve
and you will have a more enjoyable experience.

2.  Intellectual Challenge:
        There are over 3,000 individual cards, of which almost 70% are
currently available to most players of the game.  With these
staggering numbers, how many variations are discussed in newsgroups?
Whatever is 'current,' right? Sligh...Suicide Black...Bounce-you know
them...you've read their reports before... When was the last time you
tried to build a deck based around Elkin Lair or Bazaar of Wonders?
For most of you probably never, right? Even those of you that are put
on your sanctioned-tour pedestal with your "killer deck" are lacking
in spontaneity and creativity. Many cards often go untouched
after they come out of the pack- rather, everyone wants to build
the highest-chance-of-winning-deck that was posted on the net. I
couldn't believe my eyes but I have already read a report on the most
likely potential killer deck for Urza's Saga!!!  And some wonder why
they are experiencing stagnation...People...new cards and concepts
add fresh "change" to the environment...even for a weathered
planeswalker like myself.  Sure..I could build "The Deck" and beat
the snot out of anyone who plays the
game...jewelry...moats...abys ses...but that's not the object here.
My purpose is fun...and change produces stimulation....and being
stimulated is a fun experience.

3. Change:
        The element of chance and luck with each new set combined
with beautiful works of art rivalling(In my humble opinion) even the
likes of DaVinci and Monet combine to produce a horizon of
possibilities and experience that has catapulted entertainment to a
new level.   However, the exploitation of this innocence for one's
ego-generated demands- whether it be playing solely to just "win,"
taking pride to the extreme after winning,  stiffing an
unsuspecting kid in a bad trade or bad sale,  or not understanding
yourself and what makes you have an overwhelming desire to "need" to
win will unfortunately lead to the experience of stagnation for you.

If you can grow to respect those you play with and the three core
essentials of this game, then the experience will never stagnate.

Many may laugh at this, but what my father taught me as a child being
active in Football and Baseball holds true for my experiencing
Magic...
It's not whether I win or lose...it's how I play the game.

Thank You for your time,
Matt\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (MoreFling @ Oct. 22 2003,06:22)Although it's a well written article, there's a clear 'hidden message' that part of long should be restricted (they are mentioned infinitely thoughout the article), yet it also tries to make sure workshop doesn't get restricted. Apart from the fact that the decicions will be made over a month from now, it its clearly pointing out restrictions canditates, and trying to defend the workshop. (and raising suspicion upon mana drain?!)
However, Steve doesn't just (outright) say it, he covers it up.

Your way off.  

There is no hidden message.  While I do think LED should be restricted, I don't think it takes me writing about that to make that a reality.

The entire message of this article was that Workshop should not be restricted - and that was hardly hidden.  I devoted 7-8 paragraphs to it.  I honestly hadn't even thought about mana drain being restricted until I read K-Run's post.

It's a moot issue if Workshop doesn't get the axe.  Which is the appropriate premise to be working from.  I am confident that the DCI will listen to reason.

If there is one thing you can expect from me its explicitness of points.  I told Oscar that I think it is he who alludes to points while not making them explicitly.  A function of his writing style I beleive.

Steve\n\n

[erik]

I just wanted to add to the choir by saying that this is a great piece, both when it comes to content and method of presentation. It's time to draw a line in the sand between casual and competitive, the last year has just been proof to this. I'm getting sick and tired of going to tournaments and/or cardshops and hear the same old whining about how combo is dumb, 10 cards should be restricted and so on just because people don't want to put in the time to playtest in what they see as a "casual and fun" format.

Who cares if Jackal Pup is too slow or there are no aggro decks in Tier1? If you want to play aggro you have three options: find masks, find workshops or find a casual playgroup. What's wrong with turn 2 being the fundamental turn, when that's what happens naturally when you have 30+ broken resticted cards available. It is as if people are still thinking about "the old days" as a static ideal, and the more the meta moves away from those ideals the worse. Just because Magic was about swinging with large creatures in Alpha doesn't mean the game has to be played the same way ten years later. It's called evolution, and I thank you for standing up for it Steve.

[MoreFling]

Maybe it's not the intention Steve, and my post wasn't meant as a bad thing per se, but that's just the basic idea that is hidden (the secondary layer of the article). Maybe you didn't intend it to be, but that's the impression it's giving on me. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[SliverKing]

Quote (erik @ Oct. 22 2003,10:54)It's time to draw a line in the sand between casual and competitive, the last year has just been proof to this. I'm getting sick and tired of going to tournaments and/or cardshops and hear the same old whining about how combo is dumb, 10 cards should be restricted and so on just because people don't want to put in the time to playtest in what they see as a "casual and fun" format.

Who cares if Jackal Pup is too slow or there are no aggro decks in Tier1? If you want to play aggro you have three options: find masks, find workshops or find a casual playgroup. What's wrong with turn 2 being the fundamental turn, when that's what happens naturally when you have 30+ broken resticted cards available. It is as if people are still thinking about "the old days" as a static ideal, and the more the meta moves away from those ideals the worse. Just because Magic was about swinging with large creatures in Alpha doesn't mean the game has to be played the same way ten years later. It's called evolution, and I thank you for standing up for it Steve.

Yeah!!!  Screw the attack phase... what kind of idiot wants to play a game with creatures? or offensive and defensive strategy?    Let evolution keep pushing us... turn 2 may even be too slow...   nature dictates there is a turn 1 deck out there, if we can just find it...  
Lets really work hard, maybe we can get a fundamental turn zero deck with a few more sets...   or why even bother with the coin flip? I mean thats a lot of randomness... first man to get to the designated seat wins!!! yeah screw having to shuffle... thats so 1993...    You losers and your juggernauts and morphlings... what kind of retarded timmy-style game do you want???

[haro]

Quote (erik @ Oct. 22 2003,10:54)Who cares if Jackal Pup is too slow or there are no aggro decks in Tier1? If you want to play aggro you have three options: find masks, find workshops or find a casual playgroup. What's wrong with turn 2 being the fundamental turn, when that's what happens naturally when you have 30+ broken resticted cards available. It is as if people are still thinking about "the old days" as a static ideal, and the more the meta moves away from those ideals the worse. Just because Magic was about swinging with large creatures in Alpha doesn't mean the game has to be played the same way ten years later. It's called evolution, and I thank you for standing up for it Steve.

So you like having virtually no interaction with your opponent?  I didn't like games coming down to a coin flip during the Urza's Block and I don't like it now.

Some of us are broke-ass college students who started after Revised and  don't exactly have the cash to shell out for Workshops or Masks, especially now that a playset of Workshops is as expensive as it is.  So that isn't really an option.  I could play control, but I hate that I can't build a control deck that without Tog that isn't just an inferior version of Hulk, and 5 proxies doesn't quite cover it for Keeper.

I'm not wistful for the old-old days, but I'd like for skill to be a bigger part of the equation.  What I miss is the time period between the restriction of FoF and the rise of GAT, when control mirrors were commonplace and fun as hell.  (Blue Based Control 4L  )

The times are a changing, but something has to be done about Long.

[Rico Suave]

Great article.

At this point in time, I would love to see the "fundamental turn" slowed down, because it allows for not only more interaction, but also more skill-reliant games.  I'm just unsure of how to go about doing that while still keeping a balanced metagame.

I'm willing to wait and see how things play out momentarily, but I'm not sure it's in the best interest of the players to keep that mindset for the long haul.\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (Hanzalot @ Oct. 22 2003,04:45)by Fastbond:

Quote Both MaskNaught and Rector based decks use dark ritual

I just want to point out that the best Masknaught deck (Vengeur Masque w/ black) is not using Dark Ritual.

that is no longer the best mask deck, mirrodin is now legal.

Great article Stevie, it is indeed one of if not your best yet!

[Triple_S]

Tainted Mask w/ 4 x Spoils is better, but once Spoils goes I believe COAL will again be the better build.

[wuaffiliate]

after spoils is restricted i agree tainted will just be abit faster than it once was, coal may be back up there .

[VideoGameBoy]

Excellent article Steve - perhaps the best.

This is what I got from your article, and what I personally believe; the majority of T1 players are afraid of change.  That is what drives all these cries to restrict such-and-such card - the format is no longer stagnant.

[Triple_S]

but that is the great thing, both are definitely playable.