[Article] Old School v. The New School

[Triple_S]

Actually, your bias towards your 'pet decks' Long and Stax is also very present in your writings as well.  There is a reason why attendence is dwindling in some areas:  the most successful decks in format suck the fun out of the game faster than Abu Jafar sucks the life out of a creature.  One reason why 1.x had a large number of restrictions back in the day (MoMa, Spiral, SoF, etc) was to increase player interaction, etc.  The current meta discourages interaction beyond Duress and FoW.  Why is interest in T2 flowering for some at this point?  The format is full of interaction as combo is kept in check.  Is it possible?  It is good?  Hard to say.  Should combo/prison be viable in t1?  Sure.  Should it be the kingpin like it is now?  No.  I'm not advocating a return to the dominance of blue based control decks, because as anyone who knows can tell you I'm horrible at playing them, I'm advocating a format where player interaction is not only viable but encouraged.  Where playskill, not luck, is the most important factor.  If LED, Workshop, Intuition, Spoils, and Chrome Mox have to go to achieve this, well I am all for it.  But odds are very good I won't play in another tournament with the format in this extreme state of combo/prison induced boredom.  I play to win, but I enjoy having fun while winning.

[PucktheCat]

Quote For a LONG time Extended has had a lower fundamental turn than Type 1.  In fact, I'd say before the most recent restrictions, the fundamental turn had been turn 2 since 1999--and that's in a format with no Moxes, no Dark Ritual, and no Mishra's Workshop.

Um . . . I played for the first few months of 1999 before I quit.  The top extended deck was High Tide when I quit and that deck definatly did NOT have a fundamental turn of 2.  It could if pressed try to win turn 3 (against sligh, for example) but more typically it won turn 4.

More to the point extended Goblin decks can't really win before turn 3.

That isn't to say I disagree with the point you are making - the format is very deep with fast and powerful cards.

I think the bulk of the format supports a turn 3 or so fundamental turn.  That is the turn that control decks make their Drain mana play, that is the turn that Dragon and Goblins often win.  That is the turn that 'Tog resolves without moxen.  Workshop decks often play their Smokestack on this turn.  Even Fish usually gets the first rewards from its draw engine around this turn.

I think if LED is restricted (or Storm banned) the format will fall into a fairly healthy (at least relatively) balance.  There will always be decks that can win occasionally on turn two (Metalworker/Workshop decks, various combos) but they will pay for it with inconsistency – as they should.

Leo

[jpmeyer]

Fundamental turn does not mean that the deck kills that turn.  It means the deck "does it's thing" that turn.  High Tide didn't kill until turn 3-4, true, but after the first Extended rotation, Trix, Oath, and Survival (just for starters) all "did their thing" by turn 2.  Once Survival and Necro were banned, the format still had a fundamental turn of around 2-3 because Tinker would dump its hand by then, Goblins would have out about 10 power in creatures, Reanimator decks would have either killed (Angry Ghoul) or have reanimated an unkillable creature based on the matchup, and the actual combo decks in Aluren, Mind's Desire, and Enchantress were killing on those turns.

[SliverKing]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 23 2003,11:55)Your entitled to your view - just don't pollute tournament changes by imposing your views on others.  The DCI does not change type two because people don't like deck X.

Btw, how fun is it to have every spell countered by mono blue?  Or if not countered removed and then watch a control player draw a billion cards while you sit there helpless.

Losing sucks no matter how you look at it - against combo, control, or prison.

You are just heavily biased against combo and prison becuase you love control and you won't even admit it.

Bias is everywhere - but no one can see it.

Steve

The DCI doesnt, but R&D does...  type 2 rotates, so mistakes go away eventually...   look at what R&D has turned out lately...  in the type 2 context...  where is the efficient land destruction? where are the effiecient counterspells?  gone... thats where... because they make the game un-fun for the majority of Wizard's customers.  "FUN" does count... even among competitive players.  One thing I found in playing Keeper all those years.  When people were able to drag games out, to keep the pressure on me, and keep the game interesting, they were a LOT less upset about losing. That same player who never gets to cast aspell because his permanents are all tapped or destroyed... or didnt draw a force of will....   yeah, he's going to put his cards away and not come back.


This isnt about what *I* want, or what Oscar wants, or what Richard Garfield himself wanted....   its about what is needed to keep the format healthy and growing.  The faster you make the game, the less interactive, the more people you'll lose.   Combo Winter lost more players than any other time in Magic's history.  I guess they were just chumps who didnt appreciate the beauty of evolution and competitiveness.

I may be biased toward control, I've played it for so many years I'm sure its inevitable.  But I can tell you with a straight face that the months when TNT was the 'new' deck were probably the best Type 1 I had played... and have played since.   Control had to adapt, other aggro decks had to adapt... combo was non-existant.  It wasnt Kitchen table, gargantuan gorilla magic, this was still first turn 5/3's... or 2nd/3rd turn Dreadnoughts from Mask...  but I didnt see any of the discouragement or disgust from players that I see today.  Bias or not, the format had some of its best player growth ever during that time, so I dont think its a bad stick to measure by.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote Your entitled to your view - just don't pollute tournament changes by imposing your views on others.  The DCI does not change type two because people don't like deck X.

Quote Combo Winter lost more players than any other time in Magic's history.  I guess they were just chumps who didnt appreciate the beauty of evolution and competitiveness

Combo winter should be evidence enough that the DCI actually DOES change type 2 because people don't like deck x.  And this is no suprise; keep in mind WotC is in the business of pleasing people.  The survival of their company depends on keeping LOTS of people enjoying their games so that those people keep coming back for more.  If the games are not fun, no one comes back.  WotC of course knows this, and asserted its power to ban cards from type 2 DCI sanctioned play during combo winter because x deck was simply not fun.

We, the type 1 community, are now faced with a combo winter of our own.  And while it may not be as lucrative for WotC to appease us as they would with type 2, it's certainly not in WotC's interest to allow any sanctioned format to deteriorate into disinterest in magic.  Many of us do still buy cards (as mirrodin is proving).  Hell, anything that keeps people who would otherwise not be playing (and buying) at all involved in MTG is good for sales.  WotC will pay attention if enough people clamor for restrictions, it HAS TO, regardless if they are truely warranted in the eyes of those with a "better understanding of the game".  When the game stops being fun to enough people because interaction ceases, restrictions must occur.  This is THE single most important factor in restricting a card, and it's something that no one touches upon.  All other criteria are secondary to the democracy of capitalism that is WotC's decision making process.  Ironically, this also happens to be the best way to determine what should and should not be restricted because ultimately, if the game's not fun, who's gonna play?

[Triple_S]

I absolutely agree w/ PTW's statements.  Its the state of the format right now that has push to me to play (GASP!) Type2, and for most in our playgroup to play casual highlander multiplayer decks instead of the T1 we would usually go for.

[Smmenen]

Are you people out of your gourds?

Combo Winter??? What combo winter?

What combo deck is viable besides Dragon after Chalice? I'm not playing Long or Rector.  And once LED is restricted, the whole Long debate will be moot.

Shane
How can you say that I am biased toward my pet decks.  LOOK AT YOU!  not only that you are way off.  I do not have a bias toward a specific deck.  In the last two years I have played:

Mono Blue from January 2002-March 2003
GAT March 2003-April 2003
Stax May 2003
GATr June 2003
Hulk July 2003-August 2003
Long August 2003-Oct 20th

How does that translate into a combo/stax bias???

Of the 20 months covered - I played blue based control for a full SIXTEEN of them.

Steve\n\n

[Triple_S]

Please, pardon me for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of what you have played over the last 2 years, how silly of me to not worship at alter of Semen-man!

Now that I have my retaliatory flame out of the way, I believe that everyone has a bias towards the decks they develop or pilot to successful finishes.  If they choose to acknowledge their own shortcomings in this or not is an entirely different story.

[Smmenen]

I have allegiance to no deck.  I was hurt by your comment.  My allegiance is to the format.  

When I first joined the paragons list, Eric Spinelli went on and on about how something important in type one is to have allegiance to a deck.  It was some time before I was able to counter-act that sort of sentiment - and have been able to translate my own opinion on the matter into a broad appeal to the community.

I really do not care, personally, about any deck.  I may like playing a deck - but if I ever have a personal interest in a deck, the last one was my mono blue ophidian deck (Brown Paper Bag).

If you want evidence of this - see how often I switch decks in terms of primary tournament deck.  I do this only when I beleive that there is a better deck in the format.  

Not only have I merely switched decks, I have drastically alternated between play styles.  I beleive this is a healthy thing to do.  Holding onto a pet deck is a healthy thing only insofar as it helps make the deck stronger for the metagame - but not in terms of making the format stronger by playing the best decks.

Steve

[K-Run]

Quote (doublej20 @ Oct. 23 2003,03:03)Mana Drain is not a problem, it is one of the staples of the Blue mage that helps keep combo from being ridiculously dominant, and makes decks pay for using overpriced cards, keeping them in check. It is kind of like a single card system of check and balance for Type 1.

Quote K-Run, I respect your opinions, but how on earth can you be concerned about 'the visible feeling of boredom coming from a significant number of players'? Have you not ever played against Parfait, your own creation? There is nothing BUT boredom playing against a deck that masterbates and massages its deck for 45 minutes before playing a win condition. I would MUCH rather play against combo, control, and Workshop decks all day than a single game against Parfait, as would almost every other player I know and play with. I am not joking about this.

I know that some people don't like playing vs Parfait. It's a bit like Stasis decks of ancient times. However, like Stasis, Parfait isn't the deck that will make you stop playing Magic because its mana acceleration is limited, you can easily hate it and you can actually play those sideboard cards.

When I'm talking about boredom, I'm talking about how lame it can be to lose (and even to win) because of broken starts. Those starts used to be spectacular. They're not anymore.

Quote Mana Drain is not a problem, it is one of the staples of the Blue mage that helps keep combo from being ridiculously dominant, and makes decks pay for using overpriced cards, keeping them in check. It is kind of like a single card system of check and balance for Type 1.

Counterspell, among others, plays the exact same role except that it's not broken. It's much less of a deterent to play high casting costs, too. Would people stop playing control is Mana Drain was restricted? Personally, I don't think so, but this is only my opinion.

[Smmenen]

I think by FAR the most boring deck ever created to play against is my own Brown Paper Bag.  It HAD to be far worse than playing against Workshop decks.  I literally countered very spell that you tried to play.  

I think that we need to differentiate.  

Quote
However, like Stasis, Parfait isn't the deck that will make you stop playing Magic because its mana acceleration is limited, you can easily hate it and you can actually play those sideboard cards.

Excactly how is this different from Workshop decks?  99% of the time you can play hate and cast it.  Even I think Energy Flux is probably too slow, but no one ever has trouble casting it aganist Mud/Stax and it is a 3cc sorcery.  Further, Sphere is less important to those decks more than ever now that chalice exists.  And there are MANY ways around it.

It's only Long, once again, that is too fast - faster than most hate.

Steve

[PucktheCat]

Quote It's only Long, once again, that is too fast - faster than most hate.

This is probably true.  And even if it isn't, how will we KNOW anthing about what the metagame will look like without Long until we PLAY the metagame without Long.

A metagame is the product of thousands of hours of work by dozens or hundreds of people with varying talents.  What makes anyone think they know what a metagame will look like before it happens?  Especially in the most complex format in one of the most complex games ever invented.

Leo

[K-Run]

I was making this comment in regards to Long.dec, but I guess you could draw a parallel with MUD and Suicide Black :

The difference with Parfait and Stasis is the unrestricted mana acceleration that allows for frequent broken first turns : Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual and Mishra's Workshop allow you to play 5 Dark Rituals. I was tempted to say 5 Lotuses but I agree that this is extremist, since those mana accelerators are weaker than Lotuses.