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Author Topic: The new B&R list  (Read 11691 times)
Luc, Use The Force
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« on: December 01, 2003, 01:19:44 pm »

Voilà

Comments?
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Milton
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2003, 01:22:49 pm »

I was wrong.  I thought Dragon would take a hit.  I'm shocked that Long took the hit that it did!
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Guardian
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2003, 01:32:50 pm »

Long n'existe plus.
I am waiting to see how the environment will adapt, because removing the fastest deck in the format will change deckbuilding and card choices as Dragon is now the strongest combo in T1. The new metagame will be very interesting.
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Browser
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2003, 01:40:44 pm »

Why did "It's In!" get locked?  ...and not this?  Anyway, Dragon now looks like the deck to beat IMHO.

It's too bad Toronto Stompy got the boot.  

And for the award in the "Most Foolish Logic" catagory...our winner is..."CHROME MOX!"

The same logic should have restricted Workshop a long time ago.  (That's not an anti-Workshop arguement.  It's only meant to point out falacious logic.)
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urza's child
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2003, 01:43:08 pm »

HOLY SHIT! burning wish?! if they restricted LED it would kill long enough, its not like its used in anything else! Bye bye mandess and long, and hello dragon
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2003, 01:47:38 pm »

Quote
Quote For a more in-depth explanation of the reasons behind these bannings and restrictions, tune in to Randy Buehler’s “Latest Developments” column on magicthegathering.com this Friday (December 5th).
Go Tony! Increased transparency = good. We can wait a week for explanations before whining, no?
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
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pernicious dude
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2003, 01:49:35 pm »

Quote
Quote as Dragon is now the strongest combo in T1.

..same as it was yesterday, at least in the Northeast US meta.

All this accomplished in my world was to kill Madness.
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Browser
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2003, 01:50:10 pm »

Quote
Quote We can wait a week for explanations before whining, no?

Do you really think Buehler is going to tell us anything about the environment that we don't already understand?
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Smmenen
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2003, 01:52:17 pm »

Oh my God.  I wonder how much my urging of LED being restricted affected this.  I am shocked by Wish though.  

I guess there is not going to be a "Burning Through Type One With the Fastest Deck in Magic Parts 4&5."

Steve
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Cancerman
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2003, 01:53:45 pm »

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Workshop LIVES ON!!!

 
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Nevyn
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2003, 01:53:51 pm »

Quote from: Browser+Dec. 01 2003,10:40
Quote (Browser @ Dec. 01 2003,10:40)And for the award in the "Most Foolish Logic" catagory...our winner is..."CHROME MOX!"

The same logic should have restricted Workshop a long time ago.  (That's not an anti-Workshop arguement.  It's only meant to point out falacious logic.)
Wizards have a pretty consistent track record of restricting this sort of thing. It was probably safe, but it's consistent with other choices and I don't mind erring on the paranoid side. And it was an easy call, as this would not hurt Chrome Mox's value drastically.

A restriction of Workshop would be a huge reduction in value with a huge backlash. Seems to me they just don't want to stir things up much.

Spoils didn't surprise me. It's the type of card they often play wait and see with to find out if they can get away with it. Look how long it took them to take out consult.
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K-Run
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2003, 01:55:43 pm »

They realized that my new Burning Parfait was going to be too good.  \n\n

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Arex
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2003, 01:56:04 pm »

Oh yeah, long live the king workshop. Woo Hoo!

I was also wondering why the blue wish didnt made the cut. Keeps Keeper alive, I guess.

Anyway, Long is long gone....
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Petey4335
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2003, 01:57:39 pm »

I thought the explanation of LED, Burning wish and Chrome Mox was quite satisfactory.

And just a funny note: I've made about $20 selling Goblin Recruiters in the past 4 weeks.
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MarkPharaoh
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2003, 02:02:33 pm »

Long was already getting owned by Chalice and Dragon is running rampand winning over half the damn tournaments that I look at so I have no idea why the best combo deck in the enviroment and one of the best decks in the field wasn't touched at all.  And good god, I thought they raped Ext last B&R list but jesus they just fucked over all three of my Extended decks (Hermit, TutorGoblins and ScepterOath).
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-CF-
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2003, 02:04:38 pm »

Quote
Quote I am shocked by Wish though.  
I was actually surprised after the past annoucements when it -wasn't- restricted - but of course; nobody had broken it yet.

Everything was I expected, except Oath of Druids in 1.x. Also a bit surprised by Hermit Druid, although they clearly needed to 'fix' that deck as well.

--
Chris
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MethodXL
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2003, 02:09:19 pm »

Madness    and I hate to see it pass.  I think it will be a while before we see another good madness build, thats if its even possible.
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Solaran_X
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2003, 02:14:19 pm »

I'm glad they did what they did. Although Dragon will now be a far more popular deck, and I'm expecting Bazaars to shoot up greatly in price now.

But what I'm most glad about is that YAWGMOTH'S WILL WASN'T BANNED!!!
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Browser
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2003, 02:16:51 pm »

Quote from: Arex+Dec. 01 2003,10:56
Quote (Arex @ Dec. 01 2003,10:56)I was also wondering why the blue wish didnt made the cut. Keeps Keeper alive, I guess.
I thought their explanation of "Why Burning Wish and not Cunning Wish?" was one of the most clear explanations they've made for restriction in some time.

Though I doubt it was necessary.  I think the obvious reason, however, was just to make sure Long didn't pop back up in some new build.  (Who was saying Elvish Spirit Guide might replace 3 of the LED's?)
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Smmenen
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2003, 02:20:18 pm »

Me.  Though obviously that is no longer possible.

Any combo build is going to need a new direction.  Chrome Mox was correct for reasons I mentioned last night - with these restrictions, Chrome mox becomes a better card in combo decks that otherwise didnt make the current cut.  

Otherwise I'd get working straight away on another combo deck.

Steve
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TracerBullet
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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2003, 02:21:09 pm »

That's exactly the point.  Burning Wish will never serve a purpose other than a combo tutor, and at that, it was too good.

I personally think this round of restrictions was solid gold.  It makes for an even more open metagame.  With Long gone (i'm waiting for somebody to build LonGone.dec), people will be more free to deal with Dragon in their mainboard, as Dragon is a hugely hose-able deck.  It makes so that you no longer have to play FoW to be seriously competitive in the metagame, and overall opens up possibilities for deck construction.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2003, 02:23:10 pm »

I strongly agree.  The loss of the turn one combo deck opens up the metagame for a far more possibilities.

Steve
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Ric_Flair
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2003, 02:47:06 pm »

A reasoned approach to this list would have people concluding the following:  Banning Will would have accomplished the EXACT same thing, killing Long, without doing ANY collateral damage.  But again the DCI uses a chainsaw when a scapel suffices.

Given the proviso at the bottom of the announcement I take it they read my letter and are responding to it.  So I guess Solaran X is WRONG when he calls me the Village Idiot.  I may have been wrong about specific cards, but I got them to change their overall policy.  And that is a good thing.\n\n

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Triple_S
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2003, 03:08:35 pm »

Banning Will also creates a situation where there are hundreds of people who have cards they can no longer use in any tournament format.  This is called pissing off your customer and generally helps in decrease your revenue streams.  After all, if they ban Will, they would surely do it again.

Good job by Buehler and Co on the B/R list, I would have liked to see Workshop go but it hasn't been destabilizing enough as of yet.
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Hanzalot
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2003, 03:13:12 pm »

...but Wizards are reluctant to ban cards from type 1 because it should be the format where you can play all cards. A rule that seems fairly ok to me, so I think the chainsaw is justified. Furthermore I don't think Madness is dead at all, so the collateral damage is minimal.

Edit: Triple_S posted while I was typing, I was of course replying to Ric_Flair.\n\n

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Dr. Sylvan
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« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2003, 03:17:04 pm »

These restrictions were good choices. I personally think that the unofficial Chrome Mox explanation is "fast mana doesn't belong in 1.5", but if so it was at least a fairly reasonable choice for that purpose; CMox was on its way to a few Tendrils combo slots after LED got the ax. My personal bias would be to have YawgWill banned, but I'm teetering on a transition to 1.5 as-is thanks to PTW's new outlook, so I'm not about to get all bent out of shape about it.

I am ecstatic that cooler heads prevailed and Workshop was left alone. I predict that the next three months will feature Bazaar getting the exact same treatment that Workshop has been getting, with similar (null) result.
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dicemanX
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2003, 03:19:09 pm »

About Dragon: as long as this deck remains an average turn 3-kill combo deck, it should never be touched. Also, as many have pointed out, the deck is very easily hated out, and it isn't always the best choice if people are expecting it. Having said that, they should have restricted Spoils to prevent the creation of a fast turn 2 Spoils-Dragon deck that has some similarities to long.dec: perhaps too fast for the environment, but easily disruptable and not very reliable.

As Steve said,

Quote
Quote ...Chrome mox becomes a better card in combo decks that otherwise didnt make the current cut.

The same applies to Spoils. This card is nothing more than a ticking time bomb that should have been pre-emptively restricted. It looks like it will already mess up T1.5 to some degree following PTW's release of his Spoils Dragon version. We could easily do the same thing in T1, but it would be undoubtedly less successful.
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TeenieBopper
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2003, 03:34:25 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Sylvan+Dec. 01 2003,12:17
Quote (Dr. Sylvan @ Dec. 01 2003,12:17)I personally think that the unofficial Chrome Mox explanation is "fast mana doesn't belong in 1.5"
No.  Don't even start that.  We got the blame for earthcraft.  You looked at us when that announcement went up, and we looked back saying "What the hell are you looking at us for.  We knew it was a bad combo deck too."  Now, I look to Type One players and say stop building decks that destroy my format.  That's only  half in jest.

I hate to get off topic, but I think it needs to be said.  The lists need seperating, I think we can all agree with that.  1.5 players can't do that all on their own.  We need your help.  Go and play 1.5 a little.  Finally see for yourself that it isn't Type One Junior.  

Three cards got banned today.  None of them were distorting to the environment.  And one of the bannings completely kills a fun, competative, but nowhere near dominant deck.

I wish I had more of a point besides a rant and my displeasure with the way things are, but I don't.  :-/
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Solaran_X
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2003, 03:43:32 pm »

Quote from: Ric_Flair+Dec. 01 2003,11:47
Quote (Ric_Flair @ Dec. 01 2003,11:47)A reasoned approach to this list would have people concluding the following:  Banning Will would have accomplished the EXACT same thing, killing Long, without doing ANY collateral damage.  But again the DCI uses a chainsaw when a scapel suffices.

Given the proviso at the bottom of the announcement I take it they read my letter and are responding to it.  So I guess Solaran X is WRONG when he calls me the Village Idiot.  I may have been wrong about specific cards, but I got them to change their overall policy.  And that is a good thing.
First, banning Yawgmoth's Will would have had insane amounts of collateral damage, and it wouldn't have bothered long very much. The players just would have had to adapt. I only NEEDED Will in a handful of games with long - certainly the deck wasn't reliant on it if played in a certain manner ( not saying that Steve was playing the deck wrong when he cast Will in 95% of his games, just saying he was playing it differently ).

Banning Will would have, however, hurt other decks that utilize it - Keeper, Mask, Suicide, and Void are merely the first decks to pop into mind. In fact, it would have hurt them more than it would have hurt long, in my opinion and experience ( which may or may not be similiar to others opinions and experiences ).

Furthermore, in regards to Ric_Flair not being the Village Idiot - he did practically guarantee us that Yawgmoth's Will WOULD be banned today. But it wasn't. Especially when he put up 1:1 probability for it to be banned. That means 100%. He was so adamant about it, and now that it's not banned, I bet he'll want us all to forget the post that is in my signature.

I won't forget.

EDIT: Hey Ric...why'd you change your sig from "Crusader to ban Yawgmoth's Will" to "Former crusader to restrict LED"?\n\n

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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2003, 03:51:45 pm »

OMG HOW COULD THEY FORGET TO BAN WILL AND BLOOD MOON AND BACK TO BASICS!!!!1~one  
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