4 Color Keeper

[Gilindon]

spin 13:  Well since I don't run Geyser in my deck I don't have to justify keeping it in over Mind Twist.  However, Stroke is an instant that can be used at the EOT.  Mind Twist is a sorcery.  It is that simple.  Personally, I love Mind Twist but it has sat dead in my hand against control too many times.  At least with Stroke I can start a counter war and untap my lands (unless they are packing Seedtime  )  I won't insult your intelligence with the "its pitchable" argument.  The only reason I pull it is because of the fact that it is a sorcery.  However, in the coming weeks, I will keep it in against the mirror and reevaluate my stance because I agree that is can be a back breaker.  But I still don't think you keep it in against Mono-blue because it is a fight you will lose 8 out 10 times followed by them shoving a Morphling down your throat.

FeverDog:  I like the deck you posted except for the removal spells.  I am especially interested in how your deck performs with +1 Tundra, -1 Mox Emerald.  I know that Milton has taken out the Emerald and replaced it with a Swamp.  However, he runs Bloodmoon Keeper and that becomes especially important.  Don't fret about 2 Shamans maindeck.  I have yet to regret running 2 in my maindeck.

By the way, here is my deck after the changes suggested on this post.

Mana: 28
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Counters: 10
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Drawing: 4
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Jayemdae Tome

Search: 4
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Removal: 7
1 Abyss
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow

Utility: 3
1 Timewalk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist

Creatures: 4
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Morphling

SB: 15
4 Red Elemental Blasts
2 Dwarven Miner
1 Moat
1 Aura Fracture
1 Disenchant
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Masticore
1 Zuran Orb

[Milton]

Gilindon, I would make one switch.  With the 3 plows, white is now more important in your deck than is black.  So, I would swap a Underground Sea out and put in a Tundra.  Look at your sideboard too.  It has a very heavy white element.  4 tundra's are probabally necessary, where as 4 Underground's are one too many.

[Gilindon]

Good call.  However, I am wondering if I should instead replace the Mox Emerald with a Tundra?

[spin13]

While I can't say for the Mono-U matchup, as its one I'm not as much familiar with, I have to say this about the Keeper matchup.  What good is starting a counterwar EOT with something like Stroke or Ancestral or FoF if you don't have anything to punish them with during your next mainphase.  With any luck, you'll have Mana Drain'ed for at least 2, if not 5, drawn some cards, and you'll be ready to go with something huge.  You know whats better than just simply drawing cards and dropping a Morphling?  Drawing cards, emptying your opponents hand, and dropping Morphling.

I just think that if you start cutting threats from your deck to add in more answers (REBs, as I'd side in all my Miners before worrying about REBs (in fact, I don't bring in all my REBs against Keeper)), then you'll have little to actually push through besides Morphling and Yawg Will.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but about the Mono-U issue, don't you think you gain enough of an advantage through using Red in the sideboard to win counter wars post-sideboard.  Considering their card drawing is mainly Sorcery speed (Ophidians), wouldn't your 10 counters, +3 or 4 REBs mean that an Ophidian or your own EOT <insert card drawer here> be enough to push through Mind Twist?  I can understand trying to fight through a Mind Twist game 1 being a problem, as they have more and cheaper counters than you, but Game 2, all it takes is a Volcanic or City untapped to be able to start a decent counterwar, untapp and try again.  I'd think especially with the loss of FoF, Mind Twist resolving would be even more of a problem for Mono-U.  And at least with this play, you've got a way to force counters out of their hand.

Lastly, I think its important to analyze Mind Twists roll in general in Keeper.  You pack removal for people's lands, creatures, artifacts, and enchantments.  All these are valuable resources, and you carry at least 1 maindeck way to dealing with each of these, whether the opponent uses them or not.  Why would you neglect the hand as well?  Since it only requires 1 copy (unlike Duress), I see no reason to sideboard Mind Twist.  Boarding it out, as discussed, can be viable, but I don't see the point in starting it in the board.

 -Eric

[Dante]

I ran keeper without green for awhile and found that 4 COB, 4 tundra, 1 UP worked best for getting the WW necessary for moat.  I would replace the emerald for a tundra and either a volcanic or underground sea with an UP.

Dante

[Fishhead]

> I can't understand siding out Twist and not siding
> out something like Stroke or Geyser in the mirror.

I interpreted the logic to be this:

If I cast Geyser and win a long counter-war I refill my hand and gain card advantage.

If I cast Mind Twist and win a long counter-war, both players hands are probably mostly empty and I've only reduced us to topdecking.

This only applies to mid-late game Twists, after both sides have had a chance to fill up their hands.  The assumption is that, at this point, both sides have a good number of counters.

An interesting situation came up in a game last Friday; I had Balanced my foe down to 2 cards in hand during my Y-Will turn.  I had a choice between Mind Twisting his last two cards away or playing FoF again and trying to rebuild my own hand.  Its like a microcosm of the whole question "How useful is Twist against control?"  

So, what is the correct play here?

[spin13]

Its really just a question of what the state of the game is.  If they have a threat on the table, Mind Twisting them is probably not going to find you an answer like casting Geyser would.  If they have few cards in hand, its probably best to draw cards yourself.  However, if you're both sitting on full hands, how effective is Gesyer?  You hope you get a fistful of Moxen so you don't discard?

Now consider you have a threat in hand.  You both have a decent hand.  You Mind Twist them successfully.  I'd glady take my chances with both players topdecking if I have a 1 turn window to cast my Morphling.  I'd like to say that for every counter he draws, I draw my own.  Now, does he draw both an answer and the mana to cast both his answer and counter backup to my Morphling in 4 turns?  

None of this is to knock Geyser or Stroke.  I just think if you really want a well rounded control deck, you'd jump at a chance to play a card that is both card advantage and removal rolled into one, and one that targets a different resource of your opponents.  If D.Blow is your card advantage answer to Enchantments, Shaman to Artifacts, Abyss to Creatures, and all are very worth playing, why would you consider removing Mind Twist for your opponents most valuable asset: their hand?

 -Eric

[Freddie]

-In the situation of either twisting your opponents hand, or forf again, it depends on how many cadrs were going to be in your hand if you did NOT forf, had you already ancestralled and time walked possibly dem or mis tutored? if so, id say twist the hand, if not, then id go for the forf.-

Mind twist in my opinion is probibly one of the 3-4 most important cards in the control matchup.

I will usually try and set up a sequence like this against control (if i have the time) eot forf, they counter, I counter, they counter. I go to my turn, go for a morph, they counter, I go for a miner, they counter, then I time walk, untap, then fully commit to the twist, and set up a will for the following turn or 2. replaying the miner, and the forf, and regrowth the morphling, something like that.

Even if they have a threat on the board, the twist is worthy of using, making them in a unshakey position, and allowing you to use draw magics with out the fear of counters or mis-d's.

I dont even SB it (mind twist) out againt aggro or mono red, cause especially after SB, they will bring in some more reactive cards that will cause them to build up a hand, that deserves twisting away.

Against Mono red, I think that Weissman said it best:

"They'll sit there with a handful of blasts while you camp behind a COP: Red and wait to Mindtwist their hand away"

That is a fantastic idea, if I do say so myself.

Most aggro decks use JUST their initial hand and try to ride them to victory, using the first 5-6 draw steps to trya nd give them some support, but mindtwist (if tutored for early) takes away that initial rush of threats.

-Freddie

[Milton]

Quote I will usually try and set up a sequence like this against control (if i have the time) eot forf, they counter, I counter, they counter. I go to my turn, go for a morph, they counter, I go for a miner, they counter, then I time walk, untap, then fully commit to the twist, and set up a will for the following turn or 2. replaying the miner, and the forf, and regrowth the morphling, something like that.

The point is that after the counter war, after you have depleted their hand of four counters in a turn, you won't need the Mind Twist.  You will be able to go off with Will and do anything you want.

Mind Twist in this example doesn't do much.  That's why we side it out v. control.  The person that can set up the big counter war will win the battle and the game.  Mind Twist, in this case, is just adding insult to injury, but it really isn't doing anything substantive.  In your example your opponent countered four times!  Assume they used one pitch counter, and you have them down to two cards in hand.  Your will goes off, you FoF, cast Morphling, Walk, bring back Miner, cast Ancestral and win the game.

[Freddie]

It does take any counters tha they have in hand, when they are out of mana, and take creature removal and draw magic...

balance, edict, Regrowth, tome, beyser, ect... those are important cards to keep them from.

i do understand what you are saying but if they have no cards in hand (and no chainers edict in the grave) then they are forced to be in topdeck mode, with no backup.

-Freddie

[Fishhead]

> it depends on how many cadrs were going to be in
> your hand if you did NOT forf,

The situation was literally like I described: I Balanced to 2 cards, Will'ed and then had a choice of FoF or Mind Twist for 3.  (I was behind in every resource in the mid-game, I thought I could bait a counter with Balance, then Y-Will myself back into the game.  Imagine my surprise when Balance went through the first time and I suddenly had a window of opportunity!  Ancestral was not in the grave at the time and I only had 4 mana left after Will resolves.  So FoF or Twist for 3.)

I think its a tough choice.

> Now consider you have a threat in hand.  You both have
> a decent hand.  You Mind Twist them successfully.  

Thats a lot of considering.    And it comes back to this fact -- if you Mind Twisted them successfully, you could have just gone and cast your Morphling (or other threat) successfully.  

I'm not sure which side of the fence I'm on for this issue; like I said, I had considered Mind Twist a key card in the matchup - mostly because people concede if you Mind Twist them while still holding a full hand.  I'll be watching more carefully from now on to see what Mind Twist is actually buying me.  (Right now the score is 0-1; I should have FoF'ed in the example I gave earlier.)

[CrazyCarl]

These are always the deciding cards in my control mirror matches:

1 Late game Yawgmoth's Will
1 Early game Ancestral Recall
2 I'm not sure here, it's usually Mind Twist, but almost as often it's Fact or Fiction
3 Sideboard cards like Dwarven Miner and Scrying Glass are probably more important than #2 slot.
4 Morphling(Too easily dealt with )

As for Mind Twist not being important in the control mirror, it can be the defining card.  Whenever I cast mind twist I -KNOW- the game is over.  And I don't agree at all with siding it out vs aggro because one of the best ways to beat sligh is to get a big twist on their ass between turns 1 and 3.   After that it's decidedly suboptimal, but It's still a great out.

[Freddie]

@FishHead:

In that spacific situation, I would go for the ForF, and hope that 1 of the 3 cards in his hand in NOT his own balance, or Mind Twist. This would be to further establish yourself, and get out of the limited resources area of the game. But for the most part I almost always go for the twist, even if it is about the only thing I can do (as long as I at least have some cards in hand).

Or that if they are (balance or twist) that you will have a FOW, and a blue card in hand.

What did you actually do in that situation?How did it turn out?

-Freddie

[jpmeyer]

I'd side out Mind Twist against Stompy, but that's it.

What I also want to know is what kind of cards you're siding IN against control that you'd want to side out Mind Twist?

[Fishhead]

> What did you actually do in that situation?How did it turn out?

I Twisted and lost because he topdecked Mana Drain then Morphling on the next two turns.  One of the two cards I Mind Twisted was TimeTwister (! so it was possible that there was no "winning" play here.  

I guess everything at that point is a matter of luck - I could draw crap off the FoF, so its not demonstrably better.  Since I was going to be tapped out if I FoF and my opponent got to keep his two "best" cards after Balance, I felt hammering him with the Mind Twist was the right play.  Its possible that the right play was just to hang back and wait for the next turn to Will with 2 more mana available.  But at the time I thought "window of opportunity > 2 mana".

[Cuandoman]

How does the loss of Zuran Orb from the main deck change game 1?

Are you not running Zuran Orb because you expect to see more control and less aggro? Is this simalar to the now vs. long term debate with Braingeyser and Jayemdae Tome where it becomes very important to get the cards in hand now vs aggro and vice versa against control?

Quote
Vs. Sligh (w/Bloodmoon):
Out
1 Mind Twist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Wasteland
1 Jayemdae Tome

In
2 CoP: Red
1 Masticore
1 Moat
1 Aura Fracture

Is it just me, or are you trying to play 61 cards vs Sligh?

[Gilindon]

I played 4 Color Keeper at a local tournament this weekend.  I built the deck around the specific metagame at that store.  Most decks are based on fast weenies such as Elf-Ball, Squirrels, White Weenie, Counter-Post, and Stompy.  Therefore, I took out a Shaman, Abyss, and Edict to add Zuran Orb, Moat, and Earthquake (yes, Earthquake!  ) to the main deck.  I also cut one Underground Sea for a 4th Tundra and tweaked the SB to the local metagame.  The changes seemed to work very well and I won the tournament (4-0; 8-2).  Here is the decklist.  I have list my thoughts on the changes below.

Mana-28
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Counters-10
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Drawing/Search-8
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Removal/Control-9
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Earthquake
1 Moat
1 Balance
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Mind Twist

Utility-3
1 Timewalk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Zuran Orb

Kill-2
2 Morphling

SB-15
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dwarven Miner
2 CoP:Red
1 CoP:Black
2 Masticore
1 Earthquake
1 Disenchant
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Diabolic Edict

Here are my thoughts on some of my changes:

Zuran Orb:
This is also a response to Cuandoman's inquiry.  It was a mistake to take this out of the main deck in my previous change to fit in my third Swords.  This card definitely needs to be main deck.  Twice, I needed to tutor for it just to survive an extra turn to gain control of the game.  Both times it was the crucial Game 1.  This weekend’s experience reinforced my belief in the card.  I will now cut a MD Shaman for the Zuran Orb.

Earthquake:
I am already aware of the usefulness of Pyroclasm, but Earthquake was a better meta call for this tourney.  I used Earthquake because I anticipated larger creatures, i.e. Call of the Herd, Blastoderms, Rogue Elephants, and enhanced White Weenies.  I was right on all accounts as I saw them all.  Earthquake eliminated all of my problems including the rogue Shamans and Lyrists.  Also, I realized that I preferred Earthquake over Pyroclasm because of some creatures I didn’t see, like Kird Ape, Elites, and Negators.  Now I am not advocating that you main deck Earthquake (unless your metagame calls for it) but I am definitely opening some slots for it in the SB, especially for GenCon.

Moat vs. Abyss:
Moat alone won me three games.  On two occasions, I was able to cast it 1st turn via the Lotus.  My advice is that don’t hesitate to play this MD if you KNOW with a good deal of accuracy what you will be facing.  However, it was a mistake to take out the Abyss entirely (I had to make the changes in a hurry ). The Abyss would have been very helpful.  It should have been in the SB.  Lesson learned.

Swords to Plowshares:
We all know that this card is great, but 3 Swords MD was wonderful.  They really saved my ass some games and I never felt them cluttering my hand.

Underground Sea vs. Tundra:
As Milton suggested earlier, this is the right tweak to my mana base.  Only once did I feel it hurt me, but there were numerous times that I was thankful to make the change.

Given this experience, here are the changes I am making to 4 Color Keeper.  My only regret is only having 1 Shaman MD.  I would love to find room for a 2nd.

Mana-28
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Counters-10
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Drawing/Search-8
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Removal/Control-9
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 The Abyss
1 Balance
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Mind Twist

Utility-3
1 Timewalk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Zuran Orb

Kill-2
2 Morphling

SB-15
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dwarven Miner
2 CoP:Red
1 CoP:Black
1 Masticore
2 Earthquake
1 Disenchant
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Moat

Ok, this is my most current version of 4 Color Keeper.  Please let me know what you think of the changes.

[Cuandoman]

What of your sideboard choice vs. Sligh?

I was playing keeper without the Zuran Orb (to test out my question) and I also found that it is hyper-useful against any aggro deck. I underestimated its usefullness I guess.

Did the Swords save you because it was Swords or because it was spot removal? Would 1 Fire/Ice have been just as good?

Was earthquake really that good? I never thought of it as an option because of the damage. 2 is too many in the board.

Put Aura Fracture back. It's too good vs. land hate not to have. It's one of those cards that sits dead in the board until you need it. When you do though it's platinum.

[Gilindon]

Ok, first off, against Sligh I would additionally pull out the Merchant Scroll.  Vampiric Tutor is very important despite the life loss to get anything quickly to stem Sligh's onslaught.

As for Swords, it was great because it was Swords.  Obliterating Masticore, Ophids, and River Boas was optimal in the face of a rush.  Fire/Ice would have really been suboptimal in this tourney.

Earthquake is that good.  I was wholly impressed by it. It saved me in a lot of games and has definitely earned a spot in the SB.  As for the life, life is just a commodity in Keeper.  I don't worry about life until I am at the 5-6 range.  The trade off 3 damage to wipe out 3-4 creatures is worth it.  Also, it can wreck Suicide if you get it early enough.  As for 2 in the SB, I am keeping it for now, GenCon is a very diverse metagame.  I am still debating between Earthquake and another Disenchant effect.

[Freddie]

So how did Gen-con go?

How did you do with the 4 color keeper?

In retrospect what were the best and worst card choices you had made for the deck and SB?

I hope you did well, or at least had a good time.

I was unable to go, since I was the best man at my best friends wedding over that weekend... had a great time, very emotional.

-Freddie

[Gilindon]

Actually Freddie it was Origins this weekend.  GenCon is the 2nd week of August so I am still tweaking the deck in preparation.  Currently, my biggest decision is whether to cut the Emerald for the 4th Underground Sea.  Also, I am running Earthquakes in the SB.  

Freddie, you can still come to GenCon

[Cuandoman]

What are you afraid of that you would want to run Earthquake?

If it's big, run Ensnaring Bridge instead.

[Gilindon]

I don't like Ensaring Bridge in Keeper.  Earthquake kills those annoying 3 to 4 toughness creatures that can turn the tide.  Ophidians and Elephants laugh at Pyroclasm and I sure do not want drop my hand to accomodate the Bridge.

[Freddie]

I do admit that I have considered using Earthquake in the SB (but not maindeck) as a 1 of, but didn't have the balls.

I am notorious for drawing 3 cities early (or maybe I just notice every time I do) so being ahead on life enough to earthquake for 4 is scarry, and pretty unrealistic for me.

if it works for you, go for it, because if it does... good! and you are THE MAN!

as for going to Gen Con, I got them all mixed up in my brain.

I have tentative plans to go to Gen con (the one in august) but am unsure.

I would love to meet up with a few of you guys and try my hand at type one in a more fully powered enviornment.

Gilindon: what on earth is your picture?

Is it some sort of a Wraith or something, I can kinda make out a hood, and a mask or something???

-Freddie

[Gilindon]

First off, I would like to discuss Earthquake.  This is purely a metagame call.  And although the metagame at GenCon is quite random, I am running this card based on my own projection of the metagame based on last year’s experience.  I expect to find a field chocked full of aggro, even more than last year when we saw lots of XL Blue.  As Milton has mentioned in this and other posts, Zoo made a strong appearance last year.  I expect nothing less this year.  Also, both Zoo and XL Blue underwent some changes from last year that makes Earthquake a better metagame call.  The printing of CotH for Zoo and the restriction of Fact or Fiction causing a re-emergence of Ophidians will render Pyroclasm less effective.  I feel Earthquake will better fill the Void and allow me to eliminate those problems with a quick reset button.  Yes, the damage hurts but in Keeper life is just a commodity.  I really never start to worry until I hit the 4-7pt range (depending on my opponent’s deck).  My question to you is a hypothetical situation:  You are playing Suicide, your opponent has you down to 8 life with a Negator and 2 Shades on the board.  Will you worry more about potentially losing 5 life to Earthquake or the fact that you will die next turn?  Yes, this is a pretty lame situation but these are the kind of decisions you are forced to make.  Remember, the Earthquakes ARE NOT replacing any other removal in the deck.  Would I rather have top decked a Balance in that situation?  Maybe or maybe not.  I might be far ahead in card advantage or lands.  To me, the worse aggro matchup when considering Earthquake is Sligh.  I still think I would SB at least one.  To crush the early rush without sacrificing card advantage is good regardless of the damage dealt IMO.  So there you have it, my justification for Earthquake in the SB.  Also, my local metagame is heavily leaning toward weird rush decks that I have to play in the early rounds.  Earthquake devastates them.  If your metagame is similar, I suggest you try it out.  You may be surprised, I know I was very skeptical when it was suggested to me.

Freddie:  If you are thinking of coming to GenCon, I know that Milton, Dante, and myself will be there for sure.  It is in Milwaukee, August 8th to the 11th.  Let me know and I will arrange to meet you somewhere.  We would love to have you.

And as for my logo, I have no idea!  I found it in on this site.  I think it is cool.  After careful inspection, I thought it was a faceless wraith wizard with a cool color scheme.  I like it.  

[Freddie]

Gilindon:

I will let you know for sure if I am going to go, so we can meet up and try to applyeth the beats to each others heads.

Why do you not replace a shaman with a dwarven miner?

I have long thought that miner is a maindeck card often overlooked by keeper players.

It can be really strong, and is usually good against most of the decks that shaman is good against, wth less sweeping effect, but nonetheless really powerful.

It will also give you a leg up in the control mirror, regardless if he still has all the creature kill in his deck, if you can defend him for just a few turn often it is a significant advantage.

Do you have magic the interactive encyclopedia? I would like to play online sometime.

-Freddie

[Gilindon]

Haven't given too much thought about the Miner MD.  I guess in my current local metagame I don't see enough other Keeper decks for me to warrant the slot.  However, I will proxie up a version to playtest and try it out.  I would be interested to see how it fares.

As for Magic the Interactive Encyclopedia, I have been planning on picking it up for some time now.  However, there are two problems:  1.) I haven't found it anywhere, 2.) I have no idea how to play online.  If you can help me solve these two problems, I would be more than happy to play you online.

And let me know about GenCon if you are coming!  It will be a blast.

[Freddie]

Gilindon: email me:

few_ii@yahoo.com

I can help you get a copy of the encyclopedia, and show you how to play online.

If you are interested, that is.

-Freddie