Breaking down the artifact invasion.

[ScaldMonger]

I did some testing also using a R/G version and the genesis just seems to sit around not being used. It seems to be a truly metagame card as it could be used to recur killed mox monkies or lyrist, but if your welders are dying there is gonna be problems with or without the genesis. On the topic of the manabase, it seems pretty inconsistent but the 4 land grants certainly help. I haven't tried it with blue yet but some ideas for that would be to just run more birds. The one bird I play seems to just speed the deck up so much it's almost always the first card I go for. I hope to test the deck more this weekend...I'll let you guys know how it works out.

[Lord of the Goats]

well, come november onslaught will bring us a very nce mana fixer. they're like mirage search lands only the don't come into play tapped, and they have an activation of 1 life.


they act like land grants, only they can't be countered, and don't get screwed over by workshop/wasteland. i think this is exactly what the deck needs. check the mtgnews spoiler for more info about them.

[Fishhead]

Quote On the topic of the manabase, it seems pretty inconsistent but the 4 land grants certainly help.

I found the original RGu version relatively consistent.  There are effectively 12 Forests and 8 Mountains by the time you factor in your Land Grants.  12+1 is quite enough to support 4 Survival and a couple utility creatures; 8+1 is a little lighter than I'd like for 4 Welders, but it's do-able.  The biggest problem is that you'd really like to have a Workshop in your hand to start and there are only 4 of those.  Overall, I thought the mana-base was stretched tight, but its functional.  

I considered adding off-colored utility creatures early on (though I was thinking of the Duress Thrull (sac the creature to remove a card from opponents hand) combined with Genesis; back when I thought I'd like Genesis more than I do now) but decided its just too much of a stretch from a mana point of view.

[ScaldMonger]

Oh I never meant to make it sound like the manabase wasn't working, but like you said without an opening hand workshop, your gonna want to start off with a fast survival.  Land grants are amazing, and I haven't seen the new lands yet but they sound quite good. In a R/G version is it worth playing genesis maindeck... or should I try something else. Well of to do some more testing!

[teletubby]

I put Genesis into the Sideboard where it waits to get boarded in against Keeper.
In the Main Deck I figured it to be more or less useless. A second Squee would be more useful so that you would be able to search twice a turn (but I don´t even have room for him).

I even play without BoP. I don´t like it much, because early in the game - when you could make good use of it - it has summoning sickness and later in the game (when you already have Anger in your graveyard) you don´t need it anymore.


I can´t wait for the Onslaught lands to be fitted into my deck. They´ll be a great addition.

[Iuewen]

In my TnT build I have been running Whirlpool Rider just as a test. When you get stuck with dead cards in your hand, he really helps out alot, and if you dont need to use him then he can always be pitched to Survival for whatever else you need... ill test it some more and post some more results.

[Zherbus]

Quote (Iuewen @ Sep. 23 2002,03:51)In my TnT build I have been running Whirlpool Rider just as a test. When you get stuck with dead cards in your hand, he really helps out alot, and if you dont need to use him then he can always be pitched to Survival for whatever else you need... ill test it some more and post some more results.

Why not just run wheel of fortune? Its got much more potential brokeness out of the start-gate. Not to mention, that when you 'whirlpool', 'winds of change', or whatever, your gonna discard 2-3 and draw 2-3. When you wheel, youve pretty much dumped what you could.

Quote I put Genesis into the Sideboard where it waits to get boarded in against Keeper.
In the Main Deck I figured it to be more or less useless. A second Squee would be more useful so that you would be able to search twice a turn (but I don´t even have room for him).

I would assume thats more of a metagame consideration? Genesis is better maindecked against something like keeper, and squee overwhelms just about everything else.

Quote I even play without BoP. I don´t like it much, because early in the game - when you could make good use of it - it has summoning sickness and later in the game (when you already have Anger in your graveyard) you don´t need it anymore.

Thats my thoughts exactly, though I admit when I get land janked, I REALLY want birds. Even if I had them, It really wouldnt be enough to pull me out of a screw because what I really need to draw is a workshop.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Wheel or Whirpool Rider are both cards I won't play in TnT. Wheel helps Keeper to much and Rider is very situational. This means you'd have to be able to tutor for it, and if you can do that, you have Survival. And if you have Survival you'd rather discard the Rider.

Genesis should only be in the MD if the Meta is really heavy on Keeper or Parfait. You don't need it against anything else and even Keeper (without combo) is a favorable matchup for TnT without Genesis. And Genesis slows you down instead of applying pressure.

[j_orlove]

I notice some people are trying Phyrexian colossus in TnT. Is this working out? What did you cut for him?

I'm trying to assemble TnT and I'm wondering if I should add colossus.

[Gothmog]

My problem with Colossus is, its another card you can't really hard cast.  Relying too much on Welder/Survival takes away from the aggression.  You really want to have a first turn Juggy, etc...

[j_orlove]

I know, but some people were playing w/colossus (or so I gather from various tournament reports), and I just wanted to know what their impressions were.

I don't really like to discard potential ideas on a strictly theoretical basis if they seem to have some merit.


edit: read my article on TnT here.

I  

[Lord of the Goats]

collossus definatly earns it's keep imo. it can be hard cast just as easily as triskillion in most cases. you welder it in 90% of the time anway, and i often go for it over wonder since it has better evasoin against everything but moat.  it also swings through morphlings like nobodies business.  

it also changes that big swing from being in the 10-15 ponit range which is usually a point or 2 shy to a 13-17 point swing which will typically do it. that can be important vs combo... it's worh tinkering for vs combo as well.

[Fishhead]

Quote it also changes that big swing from being in the 10-15 ponit range which is usually a point or 2 shy to a 13-17 point swing which will typically do it. that can be important vs combo... it's worh tinkering for vs combo as well.

A Triskellion deals 7 points on the "big swing"; I dont see a significant advantage in moving to an 8 point monster that cant be hardcast off two Workshops.  Sure, he's got evasion but thats irrelevant against Combo and probably less good than Trikes ping ability against Aggro.

I may be too negative on the whole thing, but I dont really see a big upside here.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Fishhead @ Oct. 04 2002,15:05)

Quote it also changes that big swing from being in the 10-15 ponit range which is usually a point or 2 shy to a 13-17 point swing which will typically do it. that can be important vs combo... it's worh tinkering for vs combo as well.

A Triskellion deals 7 points on the "big swing"; I dont see a significant advantage in moving to an 8 point monster that cant be hardcast off two Workshops.  Sure, he's got evasion but thats irrelevant against Combo and probably less good than Trikes ping ability against Aggro.

I may be too negative on the whole thing, but I dont really see a big upside here.

in my experience the evasion has definatly been worth it. in my last tourney alone, i swung through 2 morphs for the win with a hasted collosus. the control player would have won next turn if i hadn't. on other occasons i have had my creatures stalled by a single morph and then smashed some heads in with colosus. it's nice to have a threat that morphling can't deal with.  

 if you've got 2 workshops on the board, most of the time you have either another land as well, or a mox... if you keep a hand with 2 workshops as your first land drops then the rest of your hand better be more fatties, in which case it probably won't matter.

vs combo the 8/8 is better than a 4/4 that pings 3 times. it's not the evasion that makes it good there, it's the fact that it can swing twice.

test it out, i'm sure you'll find the same results that i have.

[j_orlove]

What did you cut to fit the colossus?


Also, what are people using in their TnT sideboards?

[Lord of the Goats]

personally, i'm running it in the lyrist slot. my metagame dosn't warrent a md lyrist.  it could concievably go in the wonder slot if you're using wonder as evation rather than to deal with moat, but once again that depends on your meta game.

[Fishhead]

Quote personally, i'm running it in the lyrist slot

But you are running only one Trike, right?  (I suppose it gets a bit confusing to say what you are running it "instead of" when 5-10 cards have been changed from the original deck.)  My previous argument was based on 2xTrike vs. Trike+Colossus.  

(I havent gotten around to playtesting the Colossus because I am tryng Army of Squirrels right now.  With one tournament behind me, the deck feels a bit rough.  I'm thinking 4x of each of the combo pieces is not the way to go.  Maybe I should start a new thread...)

[Lord of the Goats]

i am running 2 trisks.

i find that i just don't want to draw most of the utility creatures (ones that you intent on casting but aren't artifactes like core). half of me just wants to cut them, but i don't think that would be a good idea.

[Fishhead]

Quote half of me just wants to cut them, but i don't think that would be a good idea.

I experimented for a while with Living Wish to solve this problem.  I never was completely happy with it; but probably that was because I tried to cram too much into my 'board.  By the time you put the 2nd 'Core and 2 regular utility creatures in the sideboard you've opened up 3 slots for Wishes.  You probably want to put a City of Brass in the side to Wish for; thats 4 slots out of a very tight 'board.  I made a 75% Wish SB and thats just too much.

Also, I tended to keep a Wish or two in if I felt the opponent might have a Tormods Crypt for the second game.  Definitely sideboarding in this layout requires more thouhgt than I gave it at the time.

[Aroxisis]

on the subject of recurrable life-gain, has anyone mentioned ravenous beloth(sp?)? He is a bigger body than the bottle gnomes, and sacs for more life. On the downside, he cant be put into play by a single workshop, but do the larger body and more life negate this drawback?

[bebe]

He cannot be welded. That is the drawback

[Maxx Matt]

keeper pre side can't handle all the treats of tnt!!!!!!!!!!!!

i play at least 10 games and i won only 2 ( the only two games without a welder/survival in play in the first two turns!!!!)

post side i almost won all the game but my opponent doesn't side becauuse he state that "he hadn't the need of..."

the build i play against is the well known RGb version with these changes:

-1 Shaman
-1 Uktabi
-1 squee
-1 triskelion

+1 Jestercap
+1 Karn
+1 Viashino heretics
+1 tetravus  ( very noisy!!!!!!!!! )

he has no waste and no fetch-land but a more solid mana base

if i can i'll post the exact list, but it seems similar to the other knownandwritten


i'm sad.... i'm a poor keeper player....
     

[Fishhead]

Quote post side i almost won all the game but my opponent doesn't side becauuse he state that "he hadn't the need of..."

I'm not sure I agree with that, but when I first started playing TnT I remember sitting down with Keeper players and sorting through our sideboards to see how much the matchup would change after siding.  

At the time I was gunning for Keeper so I ran 4 ReBs and 2 Blood Moons.  Generally, the Keeper player had a couple cards to bring in, but a lot of his best tricks (Balance) are already maindecked.  It was pretty clear that the matchup was only going to get worse for Keeper after the first game.

Anyway, dont worry too much about losing to TnT.  With a little more practice, I think you'll cut your loss rate down to something more like 6/10 instead of 8/10, but its still a really rough matchup.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Aroxisis @ Oct. 07 2002,19:13)on the subject of recurrable life-gain, has anyone mentioned ravenous beloth(sp?)? He is a bigger body than the bottle gnomes, and sacs for more life. On the downside, he cant be put into play by a single workshop, but do the larger body and more life negate this drawback?

The easy casting cost and artifact-ness are the entire point behind Bottle Gnomes.

[Maxx Matt]

@fishhead:   i don't know if he won so much game due to his ability or his broken hands ( i think a mix of them... ).... but....

i thought a lot what kind of cards he can bring in...  

all the non basic hosers are  really effective.. but keeper can win even if blood moon aome into play ( not so often but...  ) so.. why not adding 4 jester 's cap and ReB from the side???  you can remove some creatures... play an early jester and force him to scoop or concede....


i try to build a side for the deck....

3 tormond's cript ( dragon, other tnt,
4 jester's cap (keeper, combo,
4 red elemental blast ( against control combo ... )
1 druid lyrist ( if my wonder can enable to fly my juggs   )
1 tinker (after sideing the jesters..., i don't like maindeck it)
2 blue elemental blast


NB:  i lost two game being decked by recurring memory jar....  ufff... very bad ....  


NB: i don't know if  keeper is overrrated nowadays... i'm sure that it isn't 50% with tnt... ha can't handleall his treats if not using ALL his resource... and sometimes it isn't enough...  


thanx  

--------------------
MAxx MAtt
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i think that the decision to cut the wastes for amore solid mana base is the right direction for stabizing the mana base of this deck... it can flood more but i can't screw it for sure.

what do you think???

[LoA]

I'm not sure there is any deck out there that needs 4 Jester's Cap in the sideboard.  Crypts help vs. Dragon and in the mirror, ReB are good vs. Academy and Trix, so adding 4 clunky artifacts might just slow down the deck vs. combo, which is the last thing you want.  Cards I have in my TnT sideboard that work well vs. combo without making me tie up 6 mana:

Bottle Gnomes:  Alright, they're there for Sligh, but if I ever faced Pandeburst or Trix, these would come in.

Red Elemental Blast:  Again, there for MonoU and Keeper, but also good vs. Trix and Academy.

Tormod's Crypt:  There for the mirror, but good vs. Dragon.

Elven Lyrist/Emerald Charm: Trix, Pandeburst. (and a host of non-combo decks).

I think the lesson to be had here is to use cards that are good vs. non-combo decks in your TnT sideboard to fight combo.  Decks like Academy are already a bad matchup for you, Caps don't make it any better.  Plus, in my experience combo is the least played archetype (combo/aggro/control), so I would have to have a pretty lopsided meta to start hating combo with that many cards.

[Fishhead]

Quote I'm not sure there is any deck out there that needs 4 Jester's Cap in the sideboard.  Crypts help vs. Dragon and in the mirror...

The Cap is actually pretty good.  In the same way that you can drop a Juggy on the first turn and put a clock on Control, you can drop a Cap on the first turn and put Combo on a clock.  "If I untap, I will take your Worldgorgers out of your deck.  Do you think you can win before I untap?"  

Crypts are not as good against a prepared Dragon opponent; though it does get into that crazy "I sideboard against your sideboard" sort of territory.  Basically, a prepared Dragon player will have Kegs in game 2 for the Crypt.  Sure, you slow him down, but Cap just wins if it hits in time.  (The "in-time" being the key problem).  

Quote i think that the decision to cut the wastes for amore solid mana base is the right direction for stabizing the mana base of this deck... it can flood more but i can't screw it for sure.

I didnt agree with this.  I feel that I won more games, especially against Keeper, by stripping a key land than I lost by having bad mana come up.  I felt much more frustrated with a non-Workshop hand; so I felt "fixing" the *colors* of the manabase didnt help that much.

I agree that color-screw will happen from time to time, but basically, I have 12 ways to get Forest and 8 each to get Mountain and Island.  Not the best manabase in the universe, but not as bad as other people seemed to feel.  Now, if I could cut Wastelands to make sure I got my Workshops, I'd consider that.  

If Wasteland isnt good in your metagame (no Keeper, no Tolarian, no random.multi.dec) then its possible to cut it.  But that should be the main reason; not to "fix" your colors when your colors arent really broken.  IMHO, anyway.  

Quote .. but keeper can win even if blood moon aome into play...

Sure, and you should congratulate your opponent if he manages to pull it off.  Because it isnt going to happen very often. Blood Moon is game over in 99% of the games between TnT and Keeper.  Blood Moon means they have only 6 cards left that matter in the game; 4xFoW and 1xDisenchant+1xMox Pearl.  Everything in your deck is still castable except Survival.  TnT has a huge advantage at this point.  

Blood Moon also puts a crimp on Academy as well.  

Quote I think the lesson to be had here is to use cards that are good vs. non-combo decks in your TnT sideboard to fight combo.  

Yes, I like the overall look of the LoA sideboard.  Our metagame has been going through a bit of a combo phase, what with KrOathan Keeper, Dragon, Academy and Army of Squirrels potentially showing up on any given day.  I've given a certain amount of thought to how to side against combo in TnT; but never really came up with a great solution.  (Though I did get to see the Academy player resign to a first turn Cap.    My ultimate solution was to start bringing all sorts of different decks; nothing keeps players honest like not knowing which Tier One deck might show up next week.