Timmy Eat World (Worldgorger Dragon)

[dicemanX]

After a number of matches with Dragon vs control (mono-U, Keeper, Gro etc), I started to think about other SB choices. I noticed that I can win my fair share of games, but it would always come down to luck after both sides would be depleted of their cards in the initial wave of attack. I would frequently get into top-decking wars, often wishing I had some way of drawing cards. So I think I found the solution:

Scrying Glass.

I've started to test it, and it looks to be a fine addition. It's card drawing, ability to peek at opponent's hand to make sure it's safe, AND a win condition rolled into one (you can use it to draw your entire library when going off - it only doesn't work if opponent has no colored cards in hand, which is a good position to be vs control anyways).

It comes at a price though: it's the same cc as Grid, which means Kegs are more troublesome; it also has to replace something in the deck, so it usually replaces disruption slots. However, I'm starting to believe that these points are outweighed by the card drawing that the Scrying Glass can provide. I'll update my results as I continue to test.

[whienot]

Just wondering what the current sideboard looks like, and what goes in against which matchups?

My current sb:

4x Defense Grid
4x Duress
1x Stroke of Genius
3x Abeyance
3x Necromancy

[dicemanX]

Quote Just wondering what the current sideboard looks like, and what goes in against which matchups?

The SB is constantly evolving; it also depends what your local meta is like and what version of the deck you play.

Aside from the options listed in this thread, I have seriously considered the following options:

Nevinyrral's Disk - vs Blood Moon/Planar Void/Tormod's Crypt etc. Don't use Necromancy. Trust me - it's a waste of precious SB space.

Scrying Glass (a necessity it seems to compete vs control, plus it's a win condition)

Cursed Scroll (vs aggro, but especially vs Suicide)

Read the Runes (this card is incredible - it's also a non-misdirectable win condition plus card draw plus giving you the ability to dump creatures in your yard from hand, all rolled into one)

[Smmenen]

What do you boys think of the Rolande Bode version:

http://www.morphling.de/deckarchiv.php?deck=14

1 Black Lotus

1 Mox Emerald

1 Mox Jet

1 Mox Pearl

1 Mox Ruby

1 Mox Sapphire

1 Sol Ring

4 Animate Dead

3 Buried Alive

3 Dance of the Dead

4 Dark Rituals

1 Deep Analysis

1 Demonic Tutor

4 Entomb

4 Necromancy
 1 Necropotence

1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Aerial Caravan

1 Ancestral Recall

3 Cunning Wish

3 Intuition

1 Time Walk

2 Worldgorger Dragon

1 Abeyance


Lands:


4 Gemstone Mine

4 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Underground Sea

3 Underground River
 
SB

 2 Abeyance

1 Whispers of the Muse

4 Duress

4 Hypnotic Specter

1 Hoodwink

1 Stroke of Genius

1 Blue Elemental Blast

1 Mana Leak
 

Stephen

[dicemanX]

Quote What do you boys think of the Rolande Bode version

This deck packs next to no disruption and very little draw effects, so it will die horribly vs any type of counterspell-based control most of the time.

He's not playing any draw-7s, which really hurts against suicide.

He's playing WAY too many animate effects. 7 is usually plenty, but he upped the count to 11.

He's missing Mana Crypt.

He has no good protection against Tormod's Crypt aside from Abeyance and the random Hoodwink (why isn't he using Rushing River...). This is very dangerous.

He's missing a huge WGDragon card: Read the Runes. It's card drawing, it can put a drawn creature into the graveyard, but most importantly it's a win condition.


On the positive side, he's using the hybrid version, with Wishes and Intuitions. That's very good.

[RolandB]

Let me explain a my deck.

First. the sideboard is not very good. It has too much cards vs control(hypo, duress), while i havent enough cards to romove from the maindeck.

Now, the mainboard:
It misses disrupiton right! but what does disruption do against control. It draws a counter/edikt not more, sometimes less. What does an additional animator do, it draws a counter/edikt  or you win the game. Now i hear a lot of people say: But sometimes you have no permanents. right, but if you know the deck you know that you need not to drop more than 2-4 Manaproducers.
Just give this version a try, it has i played right about a 55:45 matchup vs. keeper.

Refering to tormonds crypt,  i like to add that it is not very strong vs. gorger since there are at least about 4 necromancys which can enter the combo in response to the empty graveyard and cunningwishes.

I prefered hoodwink to rushing river, because of it lower casting cost, i played it only against Ivory mask and planar void so i think there is no need to bounce to 2 cards.

To read the runes as you can see if you look at my lands this is a pre onslaught deck, now it is in.

I think it s a good idea to add the d7 in the board vs sui but i dont like them maindeck.

At least i want to excuse me for my bad english. School is a long timme ago....

[Smmenen]

What do you think of this diceman?

Steve

[dicemanX]

Bode questions using disruption, but I think that it makes a BIG difference vs control.

There are essentially two approaches to combo when fighting control:

1) Win asap.
2) Win with disruption back-up.

In Dragon, there is little difference in speed of the kill. Bode's deck is perhaps a half to a full turn faster vs a more controllish build, but that might not be that significant since the more control-oriented Dragon deck can win on turn three on average anyways. On the other hand, the build packing disruption doesn't autolose in the face of a few cards. For instance, any deck packing a single removal spell while aggressively trying to reduce your life total to zero is bad news (Suicide, WW, even Sligh and Stompy). In such instances, having two animate spells won't help you very much as opposed to a combination of counter/Defense Grid + animate.

Even worse are decks that mix counters and removal. I'm wary of the claim that this deck can take 55% of the games vs Keeper. Rakso seemed non-plussed when he faced Bode's Dragon in a recent article of his. And against Parfait, he would have a ton of trouble handling StPs, Seals and Orim's Chants. He would have to track down that Abeyance, but he has no way to contend with a Chant in response. The Parfait match-up could be much more favorable if he ran Ambassador Laquatus instead (then Parfait cannot stop Animate with Abeyance in response unless they get a Digger or Tormod's Crypt on the table), although it depends if either Parfait or anything with Gaea's Blessings is run in the local meta. Against mono-U, I don't see a big difference between his version and a controllish version. Grids and counters are every bit as good as Animates. Yes, that Grid or counter will not win the game outright as Bode argues, but Dragon rarely has very much trouble tracking down that first animate spell anyways.

The bottom line is, you either take great risks to win asap, or you slow the deck down a bit and opt for increased defensive resources. The latter will make every match-up potentially winnable and you won't autolose to any deck or any single card.

BTW, the one thing that I actually really like about his deck is that the transformational SB with Hyppies and/or Negators (the latter of which Bode doesn't use but should strongly consider) has excellent synergy with Dark Rituals and 11 Animate spells. I would try the following SB for his deck:

1x Stroke of Genius
1x Rushing River
1x Abeyance
1x REB (or a hard counter)
4x Powder Keg
4x Negator
3x Hypnotic Specter

Against control, the plan is to bring in all 7 creatures, while taking out your least flexible cards/card disadvantage cards - most likely -4 Buried Alive, -2 Vampiric/Mystical Tutors, -1 Intuition.

Against all other decks, you only bring in Powder Kegs to deal with the inevitable Tormod's Crypts.

[RolandB]

A few short comments.

1.) I dont like disruption in a combo deck. Maybe forces but i dont think that this deck supports more than 2 Forces.
2.) Memory Lapse > Mana leak
3.)There is no use for defense grid, cause it cant stop enchantment or creature removal. And vs. control defense grid says:" counter me  or it is looking very bad" while an additional animator says:"Counter me or lose."
4.) The 2 games vs. Rakso. Game 1 was lost against StP and maybe i didnt play right but there was no other Keeper card which could have won him this game. I had  ritual necromancy still in hand as he plowed my gorger.
Game 2 he destroyed my entire hand in turn 2. That was a draw  keeper wins in most of its matchups.

[Rakso]

A little note... when I talk about games at the start of my articles and they're unrelated to the topic in the body, it's usually a description of funny plays. They're not necessarily representative.

Of course, Roland, your build at that time didn't run Duress or Force of Will, and I had four ways of fetching Swords.

[dicemanX]

Quote 2.) Memory Lapse > Mana leak

Can you explain why you believe this? I can see arguments for both counters, but Leaks at least stop stuff without worrying about it hitting next turn. I think that the counters should not be there just to protect the combo; you might need them to counter a turn 1-2 Crypt/Void/Seal etc.

Quote 3.)There is no use for defense grid, cause it cant stop enchantment or creature removal. And vs. control defense grid says:" counter me  or it is looking very bad" while an additional animator says:"Counter me or lose."

Now this I think is an errenous argument. You cannot cast an Animate turn 1 compared to a Grid. Grids are almost auto wins if they resolve vs control, and they can be cast regardless of the combo status (ie if you haven't Buried Alive/Entombed yet). I've won quite a few games because of turn 1/2 Grids vs control, even if they only managed to pull out a FoW in the process.

Furthermore, Grid DOES stop enchantment or creature removal, so long as it is not a StP or a permanent source of removal (like a Seal of Cleansing). And even if they do have StP, you will not lose all your permanents so long as they have less then 4 mana open.

[Shock Wave]

Quote 3.)There is no use for defense grid

I strongly disagree. A first turn Grid, which is very possible with full power, is extremely potent vs. control decks. I really don't understand your logic either.

Quote cause it cant stop enchantment or creature removal.

What are you suggesting here, that extra animate effects stop enchantments and creature removal, as opposed to Grid?

Quote And vs. control defense grid says:" counter me  or it is looking very bad" while an additional animator says:"Counter me or lose."

Well no, this isn't quite correct either. An animate effect says:

"Counter me, or lose (if you don't have creature/enchantment removal that will remove all my permenants from the game)"

Seriously, an early grid does win you the game. Your opponent can only:

a) hope to drop a quick keg, which still gives you a few turns
b) get up to 3 mana and have FOW in hand (which is still a good trade, 1 Defense Grid for 2 cards)

There's also something else I'd like to point out. You have 11 Animate effects, which you would use to continuously draw counters from the control player. However, you only have 7 burial effects. Remember, your handful of animate effects are dead cards unless you have a dragon in the graveyard! Without grids, the control matchup is not looking good. You're up against anywhere between 12-20 counters with only 7 burial effects.

[RolandB]

1.)There are 10 burial(entomb, buried alive, Intuition) effects + discarding with a full hand, with 7 instants it is often not a good choice to counter the burial effects.

2.)Okay, if everyone of you loves defense Grid, you can play it, but i still dont like it.

3.)There is no reason to play animate dead >necromancy. In my opinium necromancy is the best animator, because it is an instant you can respond to edicts and so on without losing every permanent. It wins against planar void and all those cards. And last but not least it let you win or draw vs misdirections and so on.

4.)Memory lapse > mana leak.
You ask why? K, T1 is  a format with a lot of 1 time resources(ritual, lotus, grim) so if you lapse a spell, often your opponent draws a dead or not optimal card. And  in the lategame vs control it is still a hard counter in a winning counterwar.

[dicemanX]

Quote There is no reason to play animate dead >necromancy

There is in fact a big reason. Three mana is a big difference compared to two mana. I can list many examples where this might be important, for example:

1st turn Ritual Entomb, Animate (Necromancy won't work)

2nd turn Ritual, Entomb, Animate, Animate (to get past a Fow)

Getting to 4 mana is easier then getting to 5 in order to animate twice in one turn.

Etc.

Of course, having said that, Necromancy has its own advantages over Animate, so in my opinion its very difficult to evaluate which is better.

Quote 4.)Memory lapse > mana leak.
You ask why? K, T1 is  a format with a lot of 1 time resources(ritual, lotus, grim) so if you lapse a spell, often your opponent draws a dead or not optimal card. And  in the lategame vs control it is still a hard counter in a winning counterwar

Yes, those are good examples of situations where Lapse is better. But I can similarly list examples where Leak is better. For instance, if opponent is not expending resources (like Lotus, Ritual etc) to cast things like Planar Void, Tormod's Crypt, Seal of Cleansing, Elvish Lyrist etc early in the game. In such situations, it might be important to counter such spells without worrying about them coming back next turn.  

Quote 1.)There are 10 burial(entomb, buried alive, Intuition) effects + discarding with a full hand, with 7 instants it is often not a good choice to counter the burial effects.

If you put a Read the Runes in the SB, you gain additional discard effects with your Cunning Wishes. You are right that control should not stop your burial effects.

[Shock Wave]

Quote There are 10 burial(entomb, buried alive, Intuition) effects + discarding with a full hand, with 7 instants it is often not a good choice to counter the burial effects.

Well, if you're casting Intuitions as a method of burying your creatures, I'd say you're in tough already. It is true that they can serve as a burial effect, but that is not their primary function.

All depending on the situation, it might not be a bad idea to counter the burial effects. Your Necromancy is an instant too, so the fact that some of your burial effects are instants is a moot point. If I were a control player playing against this deck, I would most definitely be countering your burial effects. You are already very light in the mana department, so I would not hesitate to counter your EOT burial effect.

If you have to wait to discard your Dragon, you're inhibiting your mana development, and against control, it usually means you lose.

Quote There is no reason to play animate dead >necromancy. In my opinium necromancy is the best animator, because it is an instant you can respond to edicts and so on without losing every permanent. It wins against planar void and all those cards. And last but not least it let you win or draw vs misdirections and so on.

The biggest reason NOT to use Necromancy is that you are playing with a deck that is extremely light in the mana department. You only have 22 permenant mana sources, and no Mana Crypt! How can you possibly accomodate an extra 4 animate effects that each cost an additional 1 mana in the early game? It seems you are really relying on those Dark Rituals, especially considering that you are running 4 Undiscovered Paradise (!!). Contrary to what seems to be popular belief about Dragon, it does need to develop its mana base in the early game in order to function properly, something that Dark Rituals do not contribute too.

[Black Explosion]

In playing Worldgorger when I'm playing my monoblue, it's scary how effective forcing the 1st turn dark ritual is. Also, defense grid on first turn when I don't have a fow = game loss for me. If they can't go off in 4 turns undisrupted, then they need a different deck.

[Freddie]

I don't FOW the Ritual against this deck, but Iwill their Entomb...

I will counter that as many times as possible, until they actually get one into the grave, as they will normally have more ways to reanimate then put it into the grave.

-Freddie

[dicemanX]

Against Roland's deck, it doesn't make much difference what you decide to counter (either a burial effect or an animate effect) since he runs equal amounts of both types of cards.

Countering a burial effect vs other Dragon builds that run fewer animate cards and more disruption makes less sense. Furthermore, two-thirds of burial effects are instants, so you will be tapping mana on your turn to cast your counterspell(s). This might cost you.

[TheMadScotsman]

not to go out on much of a tangent here, but playing B/u 'gorger, i still lack effectiveness against Keeper/mono-U.  After first round in my meta, that is really all that's left, so i could use some sideboard help. Currently, i can't afford/haven't got cunning wishes yet, so i play a mix of creature distruction and removal (kegs, disks, etc.)  I was wondering what the optimal side would be for a very heavily control environment?


Don't feed the gnomes...

[dicemanX]

The fact that you're missing Cunning Wish is a bit problematic. The Wishes are good because they effectively function as extra disruption slots provided that you play instant speed disruption in the SB, like REBs (only if you were to splash red, of course) or some counterspells.

If Keeper/mono-U dominates your post-round-1 meta, here's what I might try:

1) Don't play Dragon. OK, that wasn't helpful, but the general rule is to not play combo in a heavy control environment.

2) If you insist on playing Dragon, try using either 4xScrying Glass OR  4x Compulsion + 1x Squee as your win conditions. These win conditions are excellent card drawers by themselves, which will help you a lot vs control. The Glasses have the advantage of peeking at the opponent's hand, letting you see if opponent has creature removal that you might have to play around. The downside to Glasses are that they are vulnerable to Kegs. Compulsion doesn't have this problem, and it can help you discard any drawn creatures to boot. However, to use it as a card drawing engine, you need to Entomb a Squee first, but it's a play which might not at times happen for you early enough for it to matter.

I'd personally go with the Glasses.