Revisiting Keeper

[Freddie]

I have been taking a hiatus from magic, as I have been doing crazt amounts of freelance art http://freddieart.homeip.net

I stopped in to just poke around and see whats been cooking... and this thread is awesome!

I read the vast majority of the the posts and really enjoyed the non confrontational suggestions and interactions.

The new keeper builds look solid, and cutting the evil color green is a stance I have shared for a long time... and agree with still.

Just wanted to stp by, say hi to all (nice to see you around again Az)  

-Freddie

[spevack]

Having spent the past day thinking about the removal of green and attempts to maximize utility from Wish, I think I agree with most of the decisions, and I hope to do some testing tonight.

Can someone please explain the logic behind using the fetchlands as opposed to just shoring up the mana base with something like:

5 Strip
4 City
4 Volcanic
4 Sea
4 Tundra
1 Lotus
4 On-Color Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Library

That's still 28 mana sources, and it seems like you're more well-equipped for the mirror and against LD, with a mana base that's more solid than Keeper's seen in years.

I guess I just don't understand why fetchlands are good in control decks when the mana can be okay without them.  Aren't you just asking to get 2 for 1's against strips, sinkholes, etc.?

I'm not trying to flame -- legitimately confused and curious.

[Dante]

Spevack - I've been using the mana base you listed for months now (and without green as well), except the 4th wasteland was an undiscovered paradise.  What the fetchlands allow is to run 4 fetchlands and still run 1-2 cities, giving 5-6 solid (i.e. non UP) "5-color" producers.

The mana base you listed is solid, but still ran into the "shit on you" effect Az mentioned (he called it "shuffling", I think mine is more appropriate    ).  I've only had a chance to test the 4 fetchland mana base for a couple days on Apprentice, but it looks more solid (people who have tested it and used it (Az, NG'ers, etc) seem to think so) and definitely less painful.  I think every Keeper player has been in that late-game, I've only got 3 life and 2 Cities on board out of my 5 lands.

So the logic is:

1. Waaaay less painful than 4 Cities.  Not killing yourself = good.  Plus you can still run 1-2 cities and really help avoid color screws.

2. Deck thinning - better chance at drawing business spells.  This is less of an effect as you might think as you'll probably use 1-2 fetchlands in an average game.

As for 2-1's with strips and sinkholes...you just have to play around it and learn a new aspect of the deck, that's all.

Dante

[Fishhead]

Quote That's still 28 mana sources, and it seems like you're more well-equipped for the mirror ....

So, this occurred to me as I read Spevacks post:

Sure, you want more mana on the table in the control mirror.  Which means you dont want to miss many mana drops.  But, lets think about the midgame or endgame.  Do you actually want to draw mana in the midgame?  

And the answer is -- "sort of".  Ultimately, you want to draw and resolve spells more than anything else.  You dont ever want to draw 4 land in a row while your opponent draws business cards.  But having mana on the board (and Mana Drains in your hand is a tool towards being able to resolve your spells.  

So where's the balance?  

I'm thinking out loud here, because I'm still trying to sort it out myself.  By the time you draw 15 cards (turn 4-8 or so), you should have seen one Fetchland among the seven mana sources you should have drawn.  When you use it, instead of having 21 mana sources left to draw, you drop to 20.  (21/45=47%, 20/45=44% chance of drawing a mana source.) If I drew all 4 and used them, I'd be at 17 sources. (17/45=38%)  So, thats kinda the boundaries of the problem there; you can get a feel for its scope.  

But, it still leaves the question -- in the midgame, how many times do you want to draw a land?  

[LoA]

The evolution of Keeper decks is interesting.  From Weissman's 2 Serra builds, to later Cap/Blessing versions to this most current 2 Wish/no green build.  What strikes me about the general trend is, to no great surprise, Keeper is becoming increasingly flexible and less of the "fortress" deck that Weissman's original build was.  (Today's Parfait is, in that sense, much closer to Weissman's original deck).

The current version's most obvious flexible assets are Cunning Wish and the various card drawers.  What I would like to look at is the mana base.  For the first time, there is a (seemingly) smooth mana base that allows the player a few slots to play with for the local metagame.  Assuming you play with 28 mana sources and have full power, I'd argue that the bare minimum for the new Keeper's manabase is:

6x SoLoMoxen
1x Library of Alexandria
1x City of Brass
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
--------------------------------------

This leaves 3 slots open to adjust to your taste/needs.  Obvious possibilities include:
Tundra #4 (a must if you run Moat or Celestial Dawn in the SB)

Wasteland #4 (good in higher-powered environments, but probably not needed in a aggro, non-TnT, meta)

Mishra's Factories #1-2 (Good in control, but you'd have to run Teferi's Response somewhere as well)

Undiscovered Paradise
City of Brass #2
etc., etc.

None of this will seem ground-breaking, and it might now be.  A lot of us adjust our sideboard for the local meta, and sometimes even the maindeck by a few cards (Masticore over Morphling #2 is done sometimes).  But, unless a spell costing WW or GG was added, the manabase was fairly static.  I think the debate over Keeper's manabase is going to be about a)these 3 slots and b) if the fetchlands are worth it over City of Brass.  This is a great example of why I love Keeper: the thing never ceases to add levels of complexity to playing and building it.

[Cividel]

I like the lists and I like the new tricks, I shall have to test them to see just how they work and if I like them. One thing though, at Origins Mask didn't _always_ win, I took the event on Saturday with Keeper (with a loss to a very hateful sligh deck due to a lack of Tea and no sleep). I can't decide if I like the fetchlands or not, but that's the major aspect of the deck that I'll be tinkering with. After I see how these lists work I'm also going to try to go in the exact opposite direction and not use any red (once again, I'll be branded insane and laughed at). If anyone is interested, let me know on IRC on NewNet and I'll chat about what I had in mind, it's too rough to bother posting just yet.

[rozetta]

Wow! I was scared to post this, but someone else did, so now I feel better about it. Yes, I too am trying a no red version, running tropicals in the place of the volcanics. I'm not trying the fetchlands yet, still running 4 brasses. However, I'm also trying out future sight (very experimental). Here's the differences my deck has:

- no fire/ice, mox monkey (no red, that was pretty easy)
- future sight (trying it out)
- sylvan and regrowth standard as usual (sylvan has powerful synergy with future sight)
- holistic wisdom (now there's enough green)
- fastbond (yes, I know, this will get me flamed, but like I said, it's just testing right now. With future sight on the table, things get nasty)
- twister main (again, testing, but when you can ancestral twice a turn, it's occasionally needed)
- no edict (with wisdom, getting back a balance or SToP is easy)
- no MisD
- only 2 wasteland (again, wisdom)

The list: (remember, extremely experimental)

1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus
5 Mox
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tolarian Academy
1 LoA
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Tropical

1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Twister
1 FoF
1 Braingeyser
1 Stroke
1 Future Sight
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
2 Morphling

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Abyss

1 Regrowth
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fastbond

1 Balance
1 SToP
1 Dismantling Blow

1 Zuran Orb

Flame away...

[Azhrei]

These decklists really belong in their own thread; notice how as soon as people start posting lists the original topic of conversation died immediately?

[Dante]

Quote (Azhrei @ Nov. 07 2002,05:32)These decklists really belong in their own thread; notice how as soon as people start posting lists the original topic of conversation died immediately?

Yah, decklists don't seem to generate the same conversations that general strategy does.  Also, if you are going list decklists, not listing the sideboard, or at least mentioning generally what you're going to have in it, really makes it hard to critique/analyze (remember, at least 50% of your games are played sideboarded and the sideboard has a huge influence on the way you build the deck, particularly the mana base).

To those of you who want to take out red and replace it with green, it seems you're missing out on a LOT of good sideboard cards against the other best decks (TnT, Mask, Mono-Blue, forgive me for the others that I miss) - the REBs (monoblue) and Shattering Pulse (artifact decks) really give you more help than other disenchant-type effects would (for Shattering Pulse) or Duress (what else are you going to side in for the control match?).  Pyroclasm is really strong against sligh and fills a need that another Powder Keg won't (i.e. you can Mystical for it and it kills creatures right away - you don't have to wait to set counters).

Dante

[Milton]

Back to the original thread:  Is Keeper obsolete?  I would argue that the old, NG Keeper was.  If you disagree, that's fine.  But, for me the new Paragon's version of Keeper has to be superior to the old version of NG Keeper in order to pull Keeper up.

Here, then, are some questions:  well, they are mostly ramblings and random thoughts more than questions.

Clearly there are a bunch of cards that can be included in a Cunning Wish sideboard.  Psy Blast, Rage, Pulse, Allay, Red Blasts, Misdirections, Abayance, Inferno, Plows, Edicts, Fire/Ice, Charms of all sorts.  This flexibility is great, but is a Ebony Charm superior to a Crypt?  I would say no.  A Cunning Wish for a Ebony Charm is four mana with a blue and black requriement.  A Crypt is zero.  The Wish, however, makes the Crypt in the board useless.  No more extra Abyss, Moat or Masticore in the board.  Instead, two Plows.  By the way, Cunning Wish for a Plow is four mana, the same as a Masticore.  Is a four mana Plow a good way to hold off TnT's early Juggernaut or Goblin Welder?  Or, is it too slow?

But, the Wish serves as a very flexible tutor for the spot answer.  A way to make the first game survivable.  

Remember when Chapin (Gro) and Weismann (Keeper) played and Chapin crushed Weismann game after game?  Then Weismann sideboarded and crushed Gro.  Could a Cunning Wish sideboard hold the stuff to beat Gro after boarding?  Is the match record better game 1?  Is the match record good enough with the new school board games 2 and 3?

So, what are we missing out on with a Cunning Wish sideboard?  No Kegs for Sligh and Zoo (and Dante, Keg is superior to Pyroclasm because it kills Scrolls, IMO).  Limited space for Masticore or extra Abyss or Moat.  No Crypt.  No Scrying Glass.  No COP's.

The Cunning Wish board looks for 10 or 11 instants with 4 or 5 other cards.  For me, those 4 or 5 other cards are COP's and Masticore and an Abyss.  Three or four slots are Red Blasts.  That leaves six to eight slots dedicated to the Cunning Wish stuff.  One slot should be a card drawing mechanism, if possible, so the Wish isn't dead against an opponent who totally stalls out.  Do the other five to seven remaining slots of Allay, Pulse, Plows, or whatever, justify the Wish?

Also, I've been testing out the fetchlands and I have noticed a wierd trend.  Usually I sit with a fetchland and wait while my opponent Wastelands around it.  Or, they wait.  They sit on the Wasteland while I wait for a time when I need the mana.  So, I use the fetchland to get a Underground and I use the Underground to Edict and the Underground gets killed.  Then, I can't Demonic Tutor or MindTwist until I find more mana.  So I find myself trying to figure out wheather it's more important to MindTwist or Edict.  And, after the early and agressive Wastelanding, finding more mana gets difficult and sometimes dead cards, off color cards, are in hand.

6x SoLoMoxen
1x Library of Alexandria
1x City of Brass
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
4x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island

Also, with a mana base like this it is possible for an opponent, packing 5 waste/strip and a couple of Gorilla Shaman, to kill ALL of your Black or Red or White mana sources.  What are the odds that he will draw three or four of his wastes/strip in one game?  It happens more than I care to recall.

Anyway, just ramblings.\n\n

[Freddie]

Hey Milton... Long time no see... good to see ya.

Isn't that only 25 mana sources?

Shouldn't there be +1 Tundra, +1 Und Sea, +1 Waste/ Volc?

Thanks.

PS... how did the expieremental 3 color impulse control deck work out?

-Freddie\n\n

[Milton]

Yeah.  I edited the post.  Good call.  I was cuttin and pastin and not looking at what I was doing.

No, Impulse didn't work well at all in Keeper.  I never established a mana base.  I was constantly Impulsing away mana while looking for answers or Impulsing away answers for Mana.  In fact, I mostly Impulsed for Impulse.  Brainstorm would probabally have been a better call.

By the way, you were at Gen Con.  You know my frusterations with Keeper.  You saw how Keeper preformed overall and how good aggro did.  So, you, at least, won't think I'm full of shite.

[Radagast]

A few thoughts --

1) Couldn't room somehow be made for a maindeck Skeletal Scrying (whether in addition to or instead of the sideboard one)? With double Cunning Wish, it could go a long way towards filling the recursion gap left by Regrowth -- and it also works pretty well with the fetchlands. Not to mention it's a pretty effecient card-drawer in its own right. Perhaps the D-Blow could be cut; the reason it was included in the first place is because a disenchant effect is needed and it 'cycles', but since you now have 2 Wishes which are both disenchant effects and don't necessarily have to be, is it really necessary? (If you decide to cut the sideboarded Scrying, perhaps Teferi's Response or Vampiric Tutor could take its place.)

2) Don't you have problems casting Celestial Dawn? I count a mere 11 white sources + Lotus, and 4 of those are fetchlands (meaning they won't always be white) -- and Dawn is supposed to help against a barrage of wastelands/miners, which are exactly the things that would likely make it impossible to cast. If anywhere, this would be where I'd fit in the Teferi's Response (barring additional white sources) -- then again, this is all just theory, so if it works out in practice, then great.

3) While the lack of CoP: Red in the sideboard doesn't really bother me (having it in the maindeck more than makes up), you have neither CoP: Black nor Compost (which you can't due to no green, obviously)... isn't Suicide supposed to be one of Keeper's hardest matchups?

4) In case you feel the need for some creature-sweepers to Wish for, you could try Waylay (problem is they can play around it unless you have 4UW to cast Wish and Waylay in the same turn), as well as Firestorm, which is card-disadvantage but costs only a single mana.

5) Would a maindeck Duress over the second Misdirection be worth considering? I've experimented with it in various other keeper-esque decks, and it's worked pretty well so far. (I like to think of it as a counterpart to STP; Plow against creature-based decks, Duress against spell-based ones.)

6) Wouldn't the Emerald be better than the 4th Wasteland? I've often had hands with Morphling/X-Spell/Abyss/etc, and no acceleration anywhere in sight; it's pretty problematic against things like Sligh. This looks like it would only be magnified with 2 Cunning Wish.
Also, wouldn't a Dust Bowl over a Wasteland be worth considering? Even with a somewhat lower mana count due to fetchlands (I've been using them in my own build for a while now), tutoring for (or just drawing) it has won me numerous games. It's especially nice to have if you manage to get mana flooded.

7) Have you considered a basic Island for fetching purposes? I've experimented with it a few times and it's occasionally been handy, but I don't know what you would cut.

P.S.
The modifications I'm currently trying are:
Maindeck:
-2 Wasteland
-1 Misdirection
-1 Dismantling Blow
+1 Mox Emerald
+1 Dust Bowl
+1 Duress
+1 Skeletal Scrying

Sideboard:
-1 Skeletal Scrying
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Celestial Dawn
+1 Vampiric Tutor/Teferi's Response
+1 Scrying Glass
+1 Circle of Protection: Black

The Shaman is because I don't like the guy; it's just a personal thing, don't worry about it.

[Dante]

Milton - sorry, I should have clarified, I didn't say it was better, just fills an immediate need and can be mystical'd for.  I run both Keg and Pyroclasm in the side and I maindeck both Moat and Abyss.  Also, a lot of decks that Tormond's crypt hurts are expecting it and pack null rods - 1 ebony charm plus 1 crypt works out better than 2 crypts in game two AND allows you to wish for the charm game 1 if you play wish.  We have several reanimator decks and several full english breakfast decks in my environment and both pack null rods in the side.  I also tested impulse and found it to be not that great (haven't tried brainstorm yet).

Radagast - no one really ran compost unless you ran lots of trops as you need it early to have any effect.  COP Black is more of an issue.

My sideboard was mostly enchantments, sorceries, or artifacts, not too many instants.  I haven't tested out the 2 cunning wish version yet.  I may test it out this weekend and will post my usual tournament report.

Dante

PS - what did Weissman side that beat up on gro?  Kegs?

[Zherbus]

My versions mana base is the same as Azhrei's with one minor difference. I still run Undiscovered Paradise because as good as the fetchlands go, I still need something extra against B2B. With topdecking less lands, the whole not untapping thing is really abysmal.

As far as your Grow question, Milton, its not a format defining deck. Not everyone who plays it is Chapin and so far it hasnt made me rethink my deck like TnT or Mask would.

As far as my SB goes, the only thing I pack for the mirror is 3 REBs. I still have 1 COP Red, Keg, and another swords for sligh and Timetwister, Response, Misdirection, and COP Black for Mono-black. Thats not to mention I STILL have room for Moat.

SB:  1 Moat
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Timetwister
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Teferi's Response
SB:  1 Allay OR Alter Reality
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red

The Twister was maindeck over my now 2nd Wish, but it doesnt belong maindeck against many matchups so it stays in the SB. I run all 5 Moxen and a 2nd Shaman maindeck so there is plenty of opportunitys to bring it in.

My SB isnt too bastardized to make good usage of the Wishes. 6 Cards +3 REB, leaving another 6 slots free for other things. I could run Pyroclasm, but kegs not only get other things (like Milton pointed out - Cursed Scroll) but get larger weenies like Kird Ape, 3/3 Mongoose, etc.

[BigChuck]

The version I've been running for a while is pretty much the same as Az's. A few differences in mine are the 5th mox over a fourth wasteland(Metagame choice, plus, I really don't like not having colored mana.) Also, I run one less misdirection, one more shaman. Finally, I cut the dismantling blow from the maindeck, and I am trying out a second swords maindeck. My board looks like:

1x Peacekeeper
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Swords
3x Red Blast
1x Mis-D
1x Shattering Pulse
1x Alter Reality
1x Powder Keg
1x Teferi's Response
1x Allay or Dismantling Blow--Leaning towards allay
1x Aura Fracture
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Ebony Charm

The allay vrs. Dismantling blow in my board has been leaning towards allay because I find  the since I topdeck less land, I don't need to be drawing as many cards to get what I need, not to mention, 9 mana to disenchant and draw 2 cards isn't that great... I haven't gotten much use out of either, but I'm not about to have no enchantment kill in the deck.

[PsychoCid]

I have to say I've been a lot happier with Az's version, so far, than I'd have expected to be.  My only (minor) concerns are just as other people have pointed out--the details of the mana configuration.  Namely, the lack of the 5th mox, lack of Paradise, and having the 4th Wasteland.

I'm undecided about this because there are excellent arguments for each.  It's rather thrilling to have another waste for the mirror., but it's not at all thrilling to not have Paradise if you get stuck under a b2b when you deck has been thinned of land, and similarly not so thrilling to have an answer but have no choice but to wait a (possibly rather important) turn to use it.  I wouldn't feel comfortable with having both 4 Wastes and a Paradise, as the excess Waste really feels like another gimpland. :|

Moreso for draw reasons than life, I totally dig having a heavy compliment of saclands rather than Cities.  I'm just undecided as to whether 3 or 4 saclands would keep the deck happiest.  I've chosen to stay at 4 until I run into significant problems.

Not that it's not totally obvious to decent players, but do remember that there are cases in which you don't want to use your saclands immediately, because you'll want to draw mana sources.  I just wanted to note this before too many randoms popped up with rantings about how the configuration sucks because they've run into manascrewed walls after using multiple saclands in the early game.  =P

Az: Btw, was there nothing better vs. Stompy than Peacekeeper?  Boy this thing is getting more reminiscent of 1.x Maher Oath \n\n

[Azhrei]

@ Cid: This version is not final. I'm improving it daily and tuning it more until it becomes something that will make me happy. The version I played in the States tournament was not fully tuned. Things should be much more controversial once I can play the new deck in a tournament and report my changes. It's mostly a matter of maximizing both Cunning Wish and the fetchlands and making the overall deck run even smoother. With one (and possibly two with Mask) equally broken decks out there, Keeper has to speed up a bit since raw power is no longer a fully effective solution. More on this when the time comes.

And there IS nothing better against Stompy than Peacekeeper.

[Nimrod]

Since Im a bit lazy, Ill just paste the logs, I edited out what was out of topic so the point would be clear anyway:

[21:01] <CrazyLich> is dawn the thing that makes stuff white
[21:01] <CrazyLich> i dunno what it is
[21:01] <PsychoCid> yes
[21:01] <PsychoCid> everything = white
[21:01] <PsychoCid> but I think it kills pitch counters
[21:01] <PsychoCid> :|
[21:01] <PsychoCid> or does it, haven't checked current wording
[21:01] <PsychoCid> heh.
[21:02] <Nimrod-> it changes all instances of color no?
[21:02] <Nimrod-> so pitching would require a white card.. no?
[21:02] <Nimrod-> i should check..
[21:03] <PsychoCid> WTF DIE LAG DIE
[21:03] <PsychoCid> >:|
[21:03] <Nimrod-> weh, guess not
[21:03] <PsychoCid> oh
[21:03] <PsychoCid> wtf
[21:03] <PsychoCid> heh
[21:03] <PsychoCid> no lag
[21:03] <PsychoCid> :|
[21:03] <PsychoCid> Nim: yeah. I'm gonna laugh if it only worked in testing for Az cause he was still using pitch counters
[21:03] <PsychoCid> =P
[21:04] <modargo> it does kill pitch counters
[21:06] <Nimrod-> so, how does Azh SBs when moving in the dawn? Or does he just like to run dead cards
[21:07] <modargo> +dawn -allpitchcounters
[21:07] <PsychoCid> Nim: I don't know. It's not like he has a lot of cards that can tutor for Dawn, so I can see leaving counters in to survive long enough, but then like...having counters and little mana vs. b2b is > having mana and no counters
[21:07] <PsychoCid> ;/
[21:07] <Nimrod-> then opponent calls judge and you get +b from tourneys

So, Azhrei, could youi please explain?

[Azhrei]

Yes, I know about not being able to pitch with Dawn. And no, I don't care AT ALL. You don't lose your ability to counter against Sligh much at all because once you get the Dawn down they can't REB or PoP you anymore, so what's left to counter that you can't hard-cast against? NOTHING. I haven't really tried it against monoblue, but against Sligh it's a BEATING. Dead cards? Name one. FoW does have a casting cost you know, and the pitch counter aspect is only important BEFORE Dawn hits.

[LoA]

Possible solution to the Powder Keg v. Pyroclasm debate: Dwarven Catapult.  More mana intensive (generally) than Pyroclasm, but also allows you to kill off Kird Apes and 3/3 Mongeese.  Hell, you can even kill Morphling with it if you've got 6 mana.  I haven't tested this at all, so if it turns out to be jank, forgive me.  I've been searching for a Wish-able sweeper and this looks like the best one out there.

:Edit: After reading Fishhead's reasoned reply, I've decided to drink more coffee before posting.

[Fishhead]

Quote Dwarven Catapult

If they have a Kird Ape and a Boa on the board, it costs you 6R to get them both.  Thats kinda spendy.  Its better against Sligh, where 2 Pups and a Shaman only cost 3R to kill; but, basically you could have done 2/3rds as well for 1R with Fire/Ice.  

Also, if you have 5R to put on my Morphling, I bet I have 3 colorless to pump him to 0/6.  

[PsychoCid]

Az:  I wasn't at all implying that it was final.  I was just tossing in general thoughts from the few games I've played with it.

Some people (names shall be left out, seeing as how I don't know if they want it to be known) are aiming to use synergy between a variety of cards.  Acad in because the mana helps wishes a good deal, Zorb in (place of CoP:R) because its more generically useful in its own right (and helps Academy), Paradise in because of its ability to smooth mana and be used as an anti-b2b measure, and Teferi's Response in because, with 2 gimp lands and less permanent lands overall, it's a nice safety measure.  Have yet to get in a game with this, myself, but I'm sure people who've tested will let you know how it turns out =P

[Tatanka]

About the mask vs TnT

I guess mask has a favorable matchup post-sideboard because of the cursed totems. I also have 2 planar void(mainly because of dragon.dec) wich aren't bad at all vs TnT.  I guess all what mask need to be tier 1 is the right sideboard.  


Tatanka

btw I guess CF should make a kind of mini-primer about mask, after all isn't he the one who designed the deck?

[riverboa11]

Just got back from a small local tournament with Keeper w/ fetchlands.  I must say that they are amazing.  I won all three rounds of swiss 2-0 (played a fully powered OSE, Stompy, and U/W control).  The fetchlands certainly help out the mana base, especially now that green has been cut.  The 2nd Cunning Wish that was added with the cut of green also is amazing.  In the first game against the OSE deck things were looking pretty dim as it was late in the game, we each only had 5 or 6 cards left in the library(of course he had one more then me ).  He definitely didn't expect that 2nd Cunning Wish grabbing my removed Stroke.  

Here's the manabase that I used for those that care:

6 SoLoMoxen
3 Polluted Delta/1 Flooded Strand (Traded for these right before the tourney )
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 LoA
1 CoB

[-CF-]

Tatanka: Smmenen recently wrote a starcity thing on mask, which will be sufficient after he corrects a couple of mistakes ;o)

Many people made mask decks after the ruling came, and many chose a black base. A friend of mine was most likely first though, since we heard of the ruling before most others did (level 4 Rune Horvik judges locally) and he went black with splash from day one (he already owned 3 masks at that time too). I added Tainted Pacts and tuned and tested it a lot and that's basically my contribution. I'm the one spreading the word of the deck though. )

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Chris

[FeverDog]

I know this is a Keeper thread, but maybe CF could post his list for Mask? I looked around and couldnt find it, maybe someone could point me in the right direction.

On a Keeper note, has anyone tried running a 3rd Wish? It seems that with about a dozen sb slots being instants, it might be worth a try. Also, with 6 pitch counters an extra Wish isnt a big deal.

[BigChuck]

I don't know if its his current list, but there is definitely one of CF's lists in the TOC listing.

[-CF-]

The list is the ToC one +/- a couple of cards (less discard, 4 Pacts etc. etc. - depends on the metagame). Also, the sac lands are of course included. 2 of the U/B and 2 of the B/R.

- Link to ToC decklist post
- Link to Apprentice .dec file

--
Chris

[CrazyCarl]

I played with this list in a tourney today:
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
3 Wasteland
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Teferi's Response
1 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Morphling

1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismantling Blow

1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Fire/Ice

1 Zuran Orb

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Aura Fracture
1 Ebony Charm
1 Scrying Glass
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Moat
2 Powder Keg
1 Misdirection

The fetchlands were pure gold.  I loved not tapping City of Brass and the 2 Cunning Wishes were amazing.  Ebony Charm is incredible as is Skeletal Scrying.  I only Wished for MisD once, but it was quite good, and I didn't board in Moat at all, so I think i'm cutting it for a Pyroclasm.  I want to fit in an Allay as an anti-Blood Moon card(It's becoming popular recently here recently).  Anything else anyone would like to ask, feel free to shoot me a question.

I'll also add,  even though I was against the whole 4 color thing at first, now, I don't think i'd ever want to go back.  It was just great.

Oh yah, and whenever I drew Response, I usually ended up pitching it, but it did save my ass against Parfait today(I was low on mana and he tried to waste :>)

Carl