Revisiting Keeper

[LoA]

Tons of short questiosn:

No Moat?  Was that a question of matchups or did you just never need it?  

What matchups did you see?

How did Academy work out for?  Or, for that matter, the Mox Emerald.

Even though you never needed it, how difficult was it to get the WW you need for Moat?  I'm trying to tweak my manabase as tightly as possible, but don't want to make the Moat useless.

[CrazyCarl]

I never sided in Moat.  The matches I played were:

Round 1: Bad mono black(Sengirs and hyppies and stuff, moat would have sucked)

Round 2: Parfait(obv)

Round 3: Sligh(Moat is too slow)

Round 4: TnT(We drew and played only unsideboarded games, though I would probably side in Moat vs TnT)

Academy worked out great as usual.  The Emerald was pretty good.  I'm using the Academy and Emerald based off the idea that i'm going to be Wishing alot more often than before, which tacks a 3 mana investment into everything I want to play, so having accel to get that stuff faster is good.

As for the WW for Moat, I drew UP ALOT today, so it wouldn't have been a problem, but without cities, I think it will be too hard to get the WW for Moat, which is why I think Pyroclasm will be better.

Carl

[Anonymous]

Crazy, do you really think an undiscovered paradise is nessecary in 4 color keeper? I just don't think you need that extra 5 colored source, because the only thing it would help under is a b3b lock and then it is 1 in a deck of 60 cards. Also Tolarian Academy seems to situational for my tastes but some like it. I personally would run a 4th fetchland over it. Also have most of you switched from diabolic edict to chainers? Because chainer's flashback is not really a surprize and diabolic edict grabs mishra's, idols, etc? Other questionalble maindeck slots are dismantling blow, zuran orb, teferi's responce. Why responce? At best with 2 wishes and no mishra's factories its a sb slot. My current SB for a random metagame, such as a large event.
1 Allay
2 Swords to Ploshares
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Aura Fracture
1 COP: Red
1 Scrying Glass
1 Skeletal Scying
1 Ebony Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Powder Keg

Also im trying something along these lines for a mana base-
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Library
1 City of Brass
4 Tundra (Im now running much more white then red)
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

[PsychoCid]

westredale: I can answer most of the questions you've directed at Carl.

Paradise isn't necessary to run, so to speak, but the color smoothing is a major plus, and its ability to function under b2b gives it a boost over a 2nd CoB.  Remember, saclands will only get you one of an off-blue source at a time--thus far, Paradise has been quite instrumental (I've played about 5 matches each with Az's and Carl's list, though I've fiddled with the sideboard).

As for Academy, ZOrb, and Response, it's a synergy thing.  ZOrb knocks out CoP:R because of flexibility and the fact that it helps Acad.  Acad is useful moreso than usual because of the wishes.  Response is awesome (and has been VERY, very good to me so far, despite the fact that I was against it at first--Carl will tell you =P) to have around when you've 2 gimplands on TOP of having less total land than usual, not to mention 15+ other Wasteland targets.  They all go together, and they go together VERY nicely.

The fetchlands are nice, and control still does want to build up a good mana base.  It's not a HUGE difference, anyway, but I'm happiest with 3.

Chainer's over Diabolic hasn't made any difference for me.  Factories being key to OSE (and CF's build of Mask), I lean a little towards Diabolic.  If you run 2 total, mise well maindeck Chainer's and side the Diabolic to wish for, though.

Lastly, about your mana base, you're blowing a whopping 30 slots on it.  What are you lacking in spells...or are you running more than 60 cards?  The looks of it don't seem too great.

[leakycow]

I've been following this thread with interest, especially since many have espoused dumping green.

My question is this:  Not that Compost was an auto-win, but how the hell do you fight Sui now?  Do you just hope you don't meet your worst match-up, and if you do, bend over and grab your ankles?

If you were to include anti-black SB cards, what angle would you go?  COP: Black?  Spiritual Focus?  Something else?

[Dante]

COP Black and Ensnaring Bridge were two

But really, unless you played the KrOath sideboard, you wouldn't have enough green to reliably drop a turn 2-ish compost (which is really when you need it), nor would you really have enough sideboard slots for the 3 Compost you need anyway...

Dante

[Fishhead]

Quote If you were to include anti-black SB cards, what angle would you go?  

Actually, I always thought Mis-D was a key card in the matchup.  I like to go to 2-3 after boarding.  Theres nothing like stuffing a Hymn back in MonoB's face.  "I'll teach you not to draw Duress in your opening hand."  Bouncing a Sinkhole around is good too.  

I also like to put in a couple Kegs in if I think I can get away with it.  Whether this is a good idea or not kinda gets into how the MonoB player sideboards with respect to Null Rod.  

As Dante said, Ensnaring Bridge was popular for a while;  and CoP:Black has always been good.

[Freddie]

@ westredale:

Are you running 30 mana sources?

It looked that way from the post, but (No offence here...) WOW, what is your maindeck like to run THIRTY mana sources?

---------------------

Is Spiritual Focus worth running?

It alone (kind of) negates a hyppie, and hymn becomes retarded.

I was running 1 COP red, 1 Aegis of honor, 1 COP black, and 1 Spiritual Focus for a few tournies, and it was good, but it may not be good enough.

I just likesd the diversifacation fo the white hosers.

-Freddie\n\n

[bebe]

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=10

The top eight decks at Dulmen are listed here. Keeper seemed to dominate the field. There was a Trix and a TurboNevyn in there as well.

Keeper variants played were very unusual. Two decks sported Squees as drawing engines - one with Compulsion and one with Bazaar of Baghdad...

As combo decks become more prevalent in Type 1, I think we will see a rise in the number of control decks played. I noticed that not a single TnT appeared in the top eight and I would have to add Jester's Cap to the side if I played it now. I did not see tournament reports but some of the builds are truly innovative. Keeper is clearly thriving on that side of the Atlantic.

I wonder if we should start a separate thread to discuss some of them?

[TunaBoo]

Is it possible to make a mana base with...

a) all 5 strips
b) support 4 color (no green)
c) still be able to have side in moat?

And then I kinda like shoving in academy because NO ONE by me has ways to kill moxen. I am seriously thinking of going 3 strips so I can have a more pretty mana base.

[Fishhead]

Quote Keeper seemed to dominate the field.

So, I see (in order of finish):

1) Keeper (Carsten Kotter)
2) Miracle-Gro
3) Trix
4) Turbo Nevyn
5) UB control with Squee (!)
6) KrOathan Keeper
7) Keeper (Gerhard Markus)
8) UR control with Squee (!)

So thats 3 Keepers in the T8, 2 of them piloted by T8 regulars.  (Actually, maybe all 3, my memory can be fuzzy on names).  Its a pretty good performance, definitely a good day for Keeper.  Not necessarily dominating; and oddly falling into the pattern that people criticized in Virginia -- 3 in the top 8 drops drastically to 1 in the top 4.  (I dont put a lot of credence in this "cant win in the finals" theory, but I will point it out to be fair.)  

I was planning on taking a Keeper that turns out to be within probably 4 cards (including sideboard!) of Carsten's deck to the tourney this Thu.  I like the looks of it a lot; though why Recall?  I've lived without Regrowth for a long time and kinda gotten used to it.  Is Recall really necessary?  

But after seeing the T8, I'm tempted to take one of those crazy Squee concoctions and see how it works.  

[j_orlove]

Interestingly enough, the deck that got 1st place at Bebe's link looked remarkably similar to Azhrei's:

1. Carsten Kötter (Mon, Goblin Chieftan)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
2 Morphling
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Power Artifact
1 Recall
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Walk

1 Chainer's Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 The Abyss
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Gorilla Shaman

1 Balance
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Black Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Dust Bowl
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Alter Reality
1 Scrying Glass
1 Circle of Protection: Black
1 Powder Keg
1 Misdirection
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Ebony Charm
1 Teferi's Response
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Aura Fracture

He runs the power/grim "combo" and dust bowl, but otherwise his main deck is basically Azhrei's, and the SB is also very similar.

(aside: so keeper can still take 1st place at tournaments   )

He only has 27 mana sources though (with 4 fetchlands AND a dust bowl), but apparently it was enough.  

Mon, care to explain those differences?



Moving on, what I'm wondering is, how good is the CoP anyway? I know it just wins vs sligh, and by investing a wish, it can 0wn other mono-colored decks too, but it doesn't combo with balance or fuel Academy. Are the tradeoffs worth it?

[Fishhead]

Quote aside: so keeper can still take 1st place at tournaments   )

Did you notice his comment upon winning, though?

"Strike, endlich n Turnier gewonnen!"

[Anonymous]

Quote (westredale @ Nov. 09 2002,22:31)Crazy, do you really think an undiscovered paradise is nessecary in 4 color keeper? I just don't think you need that extra 5 colored source, because the only thing it would help under is a b3b lock and then it is 1 in a deck of 60 cards. Also Tolarian Academy seems to situational for my tastes but some like it. I personally would run a 4th fetchland over it. Also have most of you switched from diabolic edict to chainers? Because chainer's flashback is not really a surprize and diabolic edict grabs mishra's, idols, etc? Other questionalble maindeck slots are dismantling blow, zuran orb, teferi's responce. Why responce? At best with 2 wishes and no mishra's factories its a sb slot. My current SB for a random metagame, such as a large event.
1 Allay
2 Swords to Ploshares
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Aura Fracture
1 COP: Red
1 Scrying Glass
1 Skeletal Scying
1 Ebony Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Powder Keg

Also im trying something along these lines for a mana base-
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Library
1 City of Brass
4 Tundra (Im now running much more white then red)
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sorry that was supposed to be 6 solomoxen(no emerald) and 3 fetch lands.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (TunaBoo @ Nov. 12 2002,12:56)Is it possible to make a mana base with...

a) all 5 strips
b) support 4 color (no green)
c) still be able to have side in moat?

And then I kinda like shoving in academy because NO ONE by me has ways to kill moxen. I am seriously thinking of going 3 strips so I can have a more pretty mana base.

Yes but you lose REB.

[Nevyn]

Quote
3 in the top 8 drops drastically to 1 in the top 4.  (I dont put a lot of credence in this "cant win in the finals" theory, but I will point it out to be fair.)  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone say that the Dulmen tourney is swiss rounds only (no top 8 elimination rounds)?

[Dante]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Nov. 12 2002,16:21)

Quote (TunaBoo @ Nov. 12 2002,12:56)Is it possible to make a mana base with...

a) all 5 strips
b) support 4 color (no green)
c) still be able to have side in moat?

And then I kinda like shoving in academy because NO ONE by me has ways to kill moxen. I am seriously thinking of going 3 strips so I can have a more pretty mana base.

Yes but you lose REB.

JP - I disagree that you lose REB.  My pre-fetchland mana base was:

6 solomo (no emerald)
4 strips
1 Library
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Islands
1 Undiscovered Paradise

and I never really had problems casting my maindeck moat or any of the 4-5 REBs in my sideboard.  You could easily swap the 4th volcanic for a wasteland and still use REB.

Now with the fetchlands, it depends (mostly for the WW in Moat).  I've tested a mana base similar to the one Az posted against TnT and Mask and typically hadn't had a problem casting Moat or getting red, but those decks don't run 4-5 strips....

Dante

PS I assume the Gro deck referenced in dulmen had 4 Sleight of Hand, not Sleight of Mind...

[jpmeyer]

OOPS.  I thought it said that one of the four colors HAD to be green.  My bad.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

The tourney was not the Dülmen tournament, but another one (31 players). Anyways, most of the Dülmen regulars were there. This is why we had T8 and not the regular Dülmen swiss only.

The Keeper dominance was called so, because a lot of people played it.

Recall: I didn't want to risk loosing Yawgmoth's Will to some untimely Duress. I also really liked how Recall played. It got me back Ancest + some other card quite often. I felt it necessary. But I finished cutting green about 16 hours before the tourney started, so...

Yep, 3 Keeper going down to 1. To at least say it, I eliminated Thomas (the non-named Keeper in the list a few posts up) in the Quarterfinals (so again Keeper against Keeper). He was the on responsible for my only swiss-loss, which I then revenged in the T8.

I still have 28 mana sources. You didn't count Grim Monolith.

On the Listing:
I toyed around with the Fetchlands instead of Citys since I saw them, but found the mana-base to fragile. Then I saw Azhreis deck in this thread and thought "Great idea, let's cut the stupid green". I never really liked Sylvan, so the only thing I missed was Regrowth. I chose to take Recall in it's place and in the limited testing I, it did was fine.

The Combo over Fire/Ice and another Wasteland: Fire just cycled most of the time I played it. And against Aggro the possibilty to just combo them out is more appealing to me than killing one creature. The combo won me a lot of games I couldn't have won otherwise (in testing and tourneys), so I'll keep it.

Dust Bowl: It's so great to have one Bowl over the Wasteland. It's an ultra-powerful thread against Keeper and gives additional Mishra-protection. It's so easy to screw people totally with Shaman + Bowl, it's not even funny. Dust Bowl is just game when you have the mana advantage. In addition it helps you to gain an advantage when mana flooded against control. A lot of people scoop if you drop Bowl. Nobody scooped to me for playing Wasteland, so it's my Silver Bullet of choice against lands.

SB:
Peacekeeper: Who the f*ck plays Stompy?? At least no one here. Does it win against anything but Keeper?

Celestial Dawn: I had none at hand AND I can't find room for it in the SB.

Edict over 2nd Plow: I like wishing for things that can kill Superman.

Allay: Aura Fracture seemed more important to me, as I saw people playing Blood Moons before the tourney started and I needed the room for different things.

Pyroclasm: I just like Powder Keg better, as it also kills Cursed Scrolls.

C.o.P.: Black I feel Sui to be a very hard matchup and I want a Silver Bullet that comes close to a just win at 2 mana.

Scrying Glass: I feel Scrying Glass to be better than another Shaman in the mirror. It gives you vital information AND is card advantage.

Misdirection: I played with one Cunning Wish in Castricum and had about 5 situations were I wanted to Wish for one during that tourney. Not much more to say.

Teferi's Response: This one seems a little random to me if played MD and is a wasted draw quite often, at least for a few turns, which can be crucial. It's a perfekt Wish-target, though.

On the MD CoP + Alter Reality: The idea looks just great to me. Having the option to do this is much like plaing GrimPower. You can have the "just win" effect (the game may go on for a while, though). Thanks a lot to Azhrei for this marvelous little piece of tech.
That being said, I can't really give tourney-proofs for my love of this trick, as the only Aggro-deck I met was a Blood Moon-Tubbies, where it was pretty unrelevant.

My full report and a full deck breakdown will be on www.morphling.de anytime soon.

/edit: I hated to take out Academy, but with one less Mox and without ZOrb, it seemed to weak.

I was also pretty happy I didn't have to play Björn Ortmans Blood Moon Control in T8, as I feel it to be my worst Matchup in there.

[TunaBoo]

Quote (Dante @ Nov. 12 2002,17:07)

JP - I disagree that you lose REB.  My pre-fetchland mana base was:

6 solomo (no emerald)
4 strips
1 Library
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Islands
1 Undiscovered Paradise

I really want to try and fit emerald in there, for me personally I would rather have an emerald than a waste or a 4th volcanic. (3 volcanics still give me 9 red mana sources w/out lotus, which isn't half bad).

Seeing how many mono-decks I play day in and day out, how about a ghetto-tacular mana base like...

7 solomo
1 Strip
1 Library
4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Islands
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 flooded Strand

[Maxx Matt]

i played a lot of match against Gro with the new Az keeper?s version and i noticed these  problem in unsideboarded games:

1) the wish is unvaluable letting you to grab Swords and ReB
2) the wish is a bit slow if you don't have some early mana acceleration and sometimes sit in hand without great appealing  
3) cop red is unuseful and thinking of doing the Alter reality/Cop:Red trick against this aggro/wallofcounter deck is a bad dream. Zuran would have performed better if it be in in this matchup  
4) if have a fetch in play and a land (typical 2° turn manabase in play and i try to fetch the 2° blue, often the istant speed of the search/draw/manipulate spell of my opponent on the stack negate me to use my manadrain to counter, relying me to use only pitch counter ( and losing my counter war... he has more pitch-counter than me... )

not sure if is better to have 2 mana on table or 1 fetch 1 land in play at the same moment in EVERY possible situation

5.1)LoA win games for me when i have it in play and he do not so much things

5.2)LoA lost games for me when ha goes in HyperComboDriadTooMuchCounter Mode and i try to get/mantain it active

6)4 waste... Counter on land grant seeing his hand uhm... what a beatiful way of winning against Gro!  

7)Winter Orb is a must counter. if i let it hit the board usually after a counter war it was game for me.

7.2) W.Orb doesn't frighten me a lot with my past mana configuration but with the adding of 3-4 fetchland i have a considerable lesser amount of mana in play...so the chance to do a land drop every turn is really little

8) city won versus fetchland!!!  finally i didn't lost for city damage against an aggro deck but for other GOOD reasons...

after siding:
+3 ReB, +1 Peacekeeper,+1 Sword, 1 Aura fracture
-1 GorillaShaman, -1 Mystical tutor, -1 braingeyser, -1Fire/Ice, -1Circle of Portection:Red, -1 Mis-d

sideboarding discussion: i took out a huge casting cost/misdirectionable  card drawer that i not so often i'm sur eto cast, the shaman isn't so useful due to the fact that eat things only for 5 mana ( powder kegs and orb ), the 2° misd is out due to the lower count of blue cards, cop: red is self explanatory as fire and ice ( 1 damage to fat driads isn't so effective...  ) and mystical only for the loss of time

i don't know if i have sideboarded well but the work seems reasonably for me... feel free to critice!!!!


so... after siding

1) i never want a double initial hand with 2 wishes over to other removal spell... in game 2 and 3 they are a bit suboptimal, but i left them in for test. probably i take out one of them for another sword

2)lotus-peacekeeper-double counter backup is always win  

3) never miss the forth Reb from the side... go definetly for 3

4) the match up is favorable to keeper after siding. if BtB don't touch the table... either...  kabbomooommm... you lost again!!!  


what do you think???

thanx for advance


--------------
Maxx Matt
--------------

[Hanzalot]

How exactly does the peacekeeper tech work?

I assume Morphling is also affected by it, so do you just stroke them do death or what?

--hanzalot

[Cuandoman]

Yeah, you deck your opponent, who is more than likely going to concede if he is smart. Stompy is all green after all and unless they are playing kegs or desert twister    you win.

I just wondered if there are any other matchups that the Peacekeeper tech would be good in. I was thinking suicide. All you have to do is counter their edicts. No one boards in contagion against keeper anyway. If they do you win anyway.

[Freddie]

Green also has Unyaro Bee Sting to deal with the dude/ chick.

You know that they all play that

Also can't you just allow the peace keeper to die (Not pay the upkeep) when ready to swing for the kill with morphling, if you have already kegged, or killed all other opposing bitches, and twisted their hand?

-Freddie

[Hanzalot]

but won't that just allow them to drop 7 new creatures? To make it work you would have to have morph in play, no cards in hand, play balance and then win...

Otherwise you also need moat or keg which wasn't the plan considering azhreis sb.

--hanzalot

[Matt The Great]

All you have to do is sit and wait. I assure you, you will find a way to win around the Stompy's men.

[kirdape3]

Most often what will happen is that the X-spells (Stroke/Geyser) will end up decking the opponent after forever.  Stompy takes almost no time to play, so there will be enough time to at least halve the match.

[chaosdjinn]

re: Azhrei's build
How do you stabilize the early to mid-game in most matchups without powder kegs? It would seem that balance and abyss are just not enough without the tutor draw.
Thanks,

[Zherbus]

Quote (chaosdjinn @ Nov. 15 2002,22:50)re: Azhrei's build
How do you stabilize the early to mid-game in most matchups without powder kegs? It would seem that balance and abyss are just not enough without the tutor draw.
Thanks,

I run a build thats a bit off from his but Abyss, Balance, Swords, Edict (flashing it back on many occasions), Fire/Ice, and the 2 Cunning Wishs (grab a Swords, Shattering Pulse, or edict EOT) have been more than enough for me. I also run Zorb, but even Azhreis build can use the COP:Red (with alter reality if need be) to hold off a mono-colored horde.

Post SB: I bring in Keg, Moat, an appropriate COP, and whatever else I might need. (Teferis response and/or Misdirection against Suicide for example)

Honestly, I feel if people are having a hard time stabilizing before aggro eats them alive on a regular basis, its time to either bring in an Oath engine. Or you could add more white which effectively does the same thing as Oath (Standard Oath engine with Spike Feeder, Spike Weaver, and Blessings OR the KrOathan combo transformational SB) would do, which is make yourself weaker in the Control mirror but kill aggro much easier.

[Project5]

Zherbus, you say that adding the Weaver/Feeder/Morphling oath engine make you weaker against control.. but what would you take out?

I had thought that the only downside of the Oath configuration was the reintroduction of green and an added sensitivity to graveyard hate in people's sideboards.

--Ben