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Author Topic: Paragon Keeper  (Read 32236 times)
Azhrei
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« on: November 18, 2002, 10:23:06 pm »

It's different enough to get an adjective.

4 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
2 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Morphling
2 Brainstorm

1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 CoP: Red

1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Fire/Ice

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Abeyance/Skeletal Scrying
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Alter Reality
1 Celestial Dawn
1 Allay
1 Aura Fracture
1 Ebony Charm
1 Pyroclasm/Keg
1 Peacekeeper/Moat/Keg
1 Shattering Pulse

SliverKing's Board:

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 REB
1 Mis-D
1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Ebony charm
1 Alter Reality
1 Urza's Rage
1 Celestial Dawn
1 Peacekeeper/Moat
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Pyroclasm
1 Aura Fracture

SliverKing also runs 61 cards, no Shaman, 3 Brainstorms, and Fireball.

We've been using these builds since VA States and frankly really wish we'd been using them then. Unfortunately we got caught mid-evolution and ended up playing decks that weren't as good as they could have been. The Brainstorms with the fetchlands are BROKEN and also let you pitch dead cards or protect late game stuff and then shuffle up some new stuff.

IMO this is far and away the most consistent Keeper build I have ever played. It's really been a wrecking ball against just about everything thus far, especially since it has more blue spells and more dig/search so the chances of getting caught with your pants down is very slim.
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Dante
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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2002, 11:41:03 pm »

I've been testing a version almost the same as yours - maindeck changes would be -1 Fire/Ice, -1 Braingeyser, -1 COP:Red, +1 Brainstorm, +1 Moat, +1 D. Blow, +1 Swords (61 cards maindeck - if you maindeck moat we can call it Dante Keeper  ).    

We don't have as many wastelands in my environment, so I'd do 4 Volcanics, 1 COB.

Maindeck COP seems a little off to me, but I haven't tested it at all, so I really can't say anything...

my side looks like
1 shattering pulse
1 allay
1 swords
1 charm
1 crypt
3 REBS
2 COP Red
1 Pyroclasm
1 Keg
3 slots (reb, perish, cop black, keg, aura fracture)

What's with the Urza's rage and the Fireball?

Dante
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Abra_Volta
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2002, 12:46:54 am »

My question is this:

Has the 2 Cunning Wish and appropriate sideboard been a better choice than builds without Cunning but a more focused sideboard?
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FeverDog
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2002, 02:07:46 am »

I would agree the Brainstorms are excellent with the fetch lands but i believe the real questioin is how good they are by themselves. It seems to me that the card has been around forever and no one has ever deemed it worthy of making the cut in Keeper before. I guess what im asking is whether you draw the fetch lands often enough to make the Brainstorms consistently great.

Also, i assume the CoP is due to a large amount of burn in your environment. Would you agree this is a metagame slot? Personally i rarely face Sligh and i feel another counter or even a maindeck Keg is better versus a varied field.

I have not playtested your version yet, so all questions are purely from a theoretical standpoint. Please treat them as such. Thank you.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2002, 06:14:48 am »

Brainstorm is really good between the tutor effects and is now playable with the fetchlands as Azhrei mentioned. I have consistant draws and its been ages since I have fought my manabase. Dead cards drawn are simply replaced and landscrew or mana flood are no longer an epidemic. Sure it still happens, but its much more of a rarity that I cant pull my self out of it.

Since I have been involved with the Paragons, my Keeper has been influenced by the emails thrown back and forth. While my list differs from Darren's and Josh's build, many of the ideas he has presented are still in place. Most notable of changes is the manabase.

Mana (28)
4 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Dust Bowl*
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Undiscovered Paradise**
2 Island***
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra****
4 Polluted Delta

Counters (9)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection

Search/Tutoring (7)
2 Cunning Wish
2 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor

Draw(4)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction

Broken Utility (5)
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Zuran Orb*****
1 Gorilla Shaman

Kill (2)
2 Morphling

Removal (5)
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 The Abyss
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:
Instants (9)

3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Misdirection
1 Allay
1 Ebony Charm
1 Blue Elemental Blast

1 Powder Keg
1 Aura Fracture
1 Moat
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black

*This was originally prompted by people playing Gay Fish. IN actuality, it allows Keeper to go into LD mode if you draw into enough lands to feed it. Otherwise its a Wasteland that costs 3 mana to use. I have found this to often break open a mirror and help keep the manabase of TnT in trouble. At the very least, its still colorless mana, like a Wasteland.

**I opted for zero City of Brass. I feel that with enough fetchlands, Ill eat as much damage against aggro as I dare to already. Plus with no COB, I never get multiple COB hands that just suck against burn based aggro.

***I have been seeing and expecting lots of BloodMoon, B2B, and PoP lately. Fetching an Island early on, since my blue and colorless spell count is fairly high, can make all the difference. Against B2B, I am brought up to 1 UP and 2 Islands which help tons. Also, this is preferable in my build since I lack Celestial Dawn in the SB.

****If I were to bring Dismantling Blow back, or change to the maindeck COP:Red that Darren runs, I would cut 1 Island for another Tundra. 3, so far, has been enough to reliably cast everything I need it to. If Moat suddenly becomes harder to cast, despite the fetchlands, I would also change this but so far so good.

*****Zuran Orb works better for me. I have never lost a tournament match against Sligh. Whether it be because I get amazing hands pre- and post- SB, I dont know. Until I start losing to Shaman killing my Zorb, I dont feel the need to go to COP:Red. It sounds weird, but I see way more mono-black, multi-colored aggro (3-Duece, Junk, Zoo) and even TnT than Sligh.

The only thing I am shakey on is the lack of Dismantling Blow maindeck. I think this is just a mental security thing right now, as in testing Cunning Wish has filled its role. I have a nagging feeling that somehow DBlow will make it back in over either a Brainstorm or Shaman. I of course dont know yet...thats what testing is for.

I thought I would really miss the acceleration of Mox Emerald also, but in fact before I cut it I hated drawing it unless it fed something broken.

One other nice thing about Brainstorm is that in an aggro heavy environment, you can afford to run more anti-aggro things (like extra removal, Grim/Power combo, etc) and be able to throw 'em back for something useful in a control mirror.

@ Feverdog: Brainstorm was pretty much unplayable without the shuffling effects of the fetchlands. The COP:Red maindeck is complimented by the Alter Reality in the SB, also.
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Azhrei
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2002, 07:16:33 am »

@ Abra Volta: Yes, God yes. The 2 Cunning Wish build makes the "more focused sideboard" its bitch.

@ FeverDog: 2 Brainstorms, 4 Fetchlands... yes, I draw them often enough. According to some recently, I DON'T play in an aggro-heavy environment, so clearly the CoP: Red is just my desire to have dead cards maindeck. Well, actually, since Zuran Orb is really only very good against Sligh anyway and marginal/dead against others, I figured why not just hose Sligh completely? The Alter Reality/Wish supplement was an idea that SliverKing had, stemming from our earlier use of Alter Reality as a 2:1 REB hoser.

@ Zherbus: I hated not having the D. Blow, but it is SO MUCH BETTER this way. Gorilla Shaman takes care of many artifacts, and Cunning Wish can get you Allay or Shattering Pulse IF you need either, which lets you effectively shut down a whole aspect of a deck. Very little has ONE card you want to Disenchant (especially enchantments) but many will have 4+... which is where buyback shines.
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mezzir
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2002, 02:05:40 pm »

silverking came up with the alter reality idea?
huh....news to me
i care that much but some props would be nice cause if i'm right cause i thot i was the one that came up with the idea
should be threads from a while back on it actually, i named it shoelace

and more on topic, i'm a big fan of dustbowl
being able to cut off all their mana of one color by just thinning out your own mana is got a lot of the time

however...teferi's response i think could be deadly against it, since you'd end up losing two lands (dustbowl and the land sac'd to it) and they'd draw two cards  
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Zherbus
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2002, 02:10:24 pm »

Quote from: mezzir+Nov. 19 2002,14:03
Quote (mezzir @ Nov. 19 2002,14:03)silverking came up with the alter reality idea?
huh....news to me
i care that much but some props would be nice cause if i'm right cause i thot i was the one that came up with the idea
should be threads from a while back on it actually, i named it shoelace
Yes he did. Since he never comes to this site, it is assured that when looking for Keeper tech among the Paragons list a long time ago, he was the father of that tech.

Thats not to say he 'created' the combo. For christ sake, Slight of Mind/Magical Hack decks have existed forever.

As for Dustbowl, if thats what youll have to do to deal with it, great! Most people aren't running it maindeck anyways. Also, if you've played Dust Bowl in a Keeper mirror, you would know that it can help put a halt to those EOT spells for a while. Thats very key in many control on control games.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2002, 03:42:57 pm »

Finally people rediscover Brainstorm. It was kind of obvious with the saclands, but with the bashing it has gotten in t1 I didn't expect widespread approval this soon :oP

Doesn't the reappearance of the blue common provide an additional argument to let Vampiric back in?

--
Chris
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Crawley
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2002, 03:46:23 pm »

How much tournament play have the new versions seen?
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rozetta
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2002, 04:01:17 pm »

I've been trying a rough version of keeper running 3 sac-lands and 4 brainstorms (and no merchant scroll), and the control you get over your hand is so good, I was holding vampirics and demonics sometimes for the whole game. Just keeping up on the card advantage/drawing allowed me to stay plenty in control and find my answers without tutoring many times. In this respect, I'm now going to be trying a version which is not running the vampiric or merchant scroll (I understand this might be blasphemy, but I thought I'd just put it out there)...
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Zherbus
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2002, 04:03:32 pm »

Quote from: Crawley+Nov. 19 2002,15:46
Quote (Crawley @ Nov. 19 2002,15:46)How much tournament play have the new versions seen?
It's November 19th. The fetchlands became legal only 18 days before this first list was originally posted.

The majority of the maindeck changes were played, at least in force, by a group of Paragons at VA states earlier this month. I dont know about anyone elses addition testing (In VA they have either weekly or bi-weekly tournaments), but my particular version has not seen any other play than play test sessions. I have tested pretty extensively, but no actual tournament for me until the next one comes up.
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The Bahoo
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2002, 04:07:04 pm »

What's up with the celestial dawn in the sideboard?  What is the purpose of and function of this card in the deck.  

I can't see any particular use other than giving a 1 card disadvantage, and screwing up misdirection, force of wills, and merchant scrolls.  Surely there is a good instant like Teferi's response that would be more useful.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2002, 04:11:21 pm »

Kills slighs REBS, PoP, Wastelands, and Pyroblasts. Negates Bloodmoon, choke, and Back to Basics.
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Mith
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2002, 04:12:26 pm »

I still lean towards Urza's rage being maindeck. I know everyone fears the mighty misdirection, but I still see the Urza's as not only another means of a kill, but also creature removal. At times I like it even better than Fire/Ice

Ah well, if anyone cares to tell me why nobody else plays Rage maindeck, I'd love to know. I suppose I could put it in the board and wish for it, but I can't seem to find room. Maybe if I take out Teferi's response...
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The Bahoo
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2002, 04:26:11 pm »

Quote from: Zherbus+Nov. 19 2002,13:11
Quote (Zherbus @ Nov. 19 2002,13:11)Kills slighs REBS, PoP, Wastelands, and Pyroblasts. Negates Bloodmoon, choke, and Back to Basics.
Is that really worth losing the ability to chuck cards to FoW and Misdirection?  That seems like a big price to pay, considering there's cards in the sideboard to deal with most all of the effects you mentioned anyways (as well if not better).
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jpmeyer
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2002, 04:40:12 pm »

Quote from: The Bahoo+Nov. 19 2002,13:26
Quote (The Bahoo @ Nov. 19 2002,13:26)
Quote from: Zherbus+Nov. 19 2002,13:11
Quote (Zherbus @ Nov. 19 2002,13:11)Kills slighs REBS, PoP, Wastelands, and Pyroblasts. Negates Bloodmoon, choke, and Back to Basics.
Is that really worth losing the ability to chuck cards to FoW and Misdirection?  That seems like a big price to pay, considering there's cards in the sideboard to deal with most all of the effects you mentioned anyways (as well if not better).
You don't need to FoW nearly as often now when Sligh's most potent cards against you are worthless.
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Crawley
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2002, 04:51:49 pm »

Quote
Quote
It's November 19th. The fetchlands became legal only 18 days before this first list was originally posted.

The majority of the maindeck changes were played, at least in force, by a group of Paragons at VA states earlier this month. I dont know about anyone elses addition testing (In VA they have either weekly or bi-weekly tournaments), but my particular version has not seen any other play than play test sessions. I have tested pretty extensively, but no actual tournament for me until the next one comes up.

Ok, yeah I should have been a little more specific. I know all about the big VA tournament, I was just wondering about these newer versions here in this topic. Perhaps Azhrei can shed some light on this?

Thanks.
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ShadowLotus
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2002, 05:31:02 pm »

I've been tracking these most recent Keeper topics fairly closely since they began, but I didn't want to comment on any of the changes until I had done some playtesting myself.  So, here we go.

Onslaught Fetchlands:  As I had posted a while back, I didn't like the fetchlands when running a 5-color Keeper.  However, w/ green *finally* gone and a tweaked manabase, they're absolutely amazing.  The random manabase problems I was running into before simply ceased to exist, and the lack of green hasn't been an issue.  Neither has the loss of the Mox Emerald been an issue, due to the fact that I really only wanted to see it if I was holding an early Sylvan Library, and that didn't happen often enough.  Losing those two cards and Regrowth was awkward at first, but using Cunning Wish and Brainstorm has been much stronger and more consistent overall.  Nothing beats getting rid of dead cards in one's hand and drawing into business spells and answers.

Zuran Orb vs. Circle of Protection: Red:  At first, I tested this out to see if I would like it, but it wasn't as great MD as it is in the SB.  Sligh has been hated out of my metagame for being so "lame" that I rarely play against it.  I understand what Azhrei is saying about going all out and hosing mono-red b/c Zuran Orb is marginal-to-dead in most circumstances, but in the end it's really a metagame call.  Plus, I still have COP: Red in the SB, so I know if I do go up against optimal Sligh decks I will be able to slow them down enough to take control of the game.

Alter Reality:  I really like this card, especially w/ two Cunning Wishes in the MD, but I can't find room in my SB for it.  I'm thinking it should replace my lone Blue Elemental Blast, since it's so effective in many matchups that are challenging for Keeper.  Only time will tell, I suppose, as to what is better in that SB slot.

3rd Wasteland vs. Dustbowl:  Actually, I've been using Dustbowl for a very long time now, and have loved how well it's performed.  I hate getting manaflooded w/ Keeper when going against a multi-colored opponent, and Dustbowl definitely solves that problem and is a great LD option to have.  If it didn't at least tap for colorless mana, I wouldn't use it; however, it certainly does, and has been golden during many games.

Vampiric Tutor:  When I started hearing about this being cut from Keeper, I wasn't sure whether I agreed.  Only until I actually took it out myself did I see how suboptimal it really is.  I know, the loss of two life is nothing.  Nonetheless, the obvious card disadvantage, slowness, and off-colorness makes it an easy cut to make.  Demonic Tutor, the wishes, Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm, and all the other card drawing is certainly enough for Keeper to be able to provide the right answers when it needs to.  I don't understand why people feel the need to put this back in their decks, but to each their own.

Power Artifact/Grim Monolith Combo:  Well, it's a pretty cool combo, but I haven't enjoyed much success w/ it in Keeper.  My main problem is playing Keeper as a control deck, then switching gears into combo-mode w/o making any play errors.  It probably can be blamed on my inexperience w/ it (and opponents who know about it), but after much testing I haven't felt the need to be running it.

Dismantling Blow:  Gone!  And I don't mind one bit.  When I first began experimenting w/ Cunning Wish, I always felt that it would be better to just wish for Allay whenever I needed to.  The kicker on D. Blow was nice, but having to wait to use it b/c an opponent didn't have any worthwhile targets made it useless too many times.  If Allay wasn't in the SB, I would miss it.  For the time being, though, cutting it seems like a step in the right direction.

Powder Keg vs. Pyroclasm:  This is another metagame call, I believe, and for me I prefer running Powder Keg.  It simply has been more versatile in the area I play than Pyroclasm, but that might change at anytime.  Both, I feel, are worthy of a SB slot, if one can justify fitting one of each in.

4-color Manabase:  For the last few weeks, I was running a manabase that was very similar to Az's version (-1 Wasteland, +1 Dustbowl, though), until I began seeing Back to Basics all over the place.  When I first saw that card being used more regularly, I knew I wanted Undiscovered Paradise back in, and one or two basic Islands to be absolutely safe.  Currently, my Keeper's manabase usually looks like Zherbus' (w/ some minor changes made every so often), and the fetchlands are what make it possible.  Not running any City of Brass has worked great, and it's always nice taking less pain from lands when facing fast aggro decks.  Also, being able to work under a resolved Back to Basics is always appealing to me, and has kept my beloved Keeper deck from being hated out of existence.  If I didn't see any NBLH, then I would definitely be going back to the set-up I had a couple weeks ago to keep my manabase more consistent.  In general, I'm very pleased w/ the alterations made, and look forward to future ideas about what an optimal Keeper manabase should be.

Well, that's all I have for now.  I'll continue testing and give some updates on what I've found very soon.  Overall, I commend everyone who have put so much work and thought into the most recent changes.  It's nice to see Keeper continually evolving, and I agree w/ those who say it's a metagame-tweaked deck.  The less of a reliance on silver bullets and more of an emphasis on versatily and utility has been very healthy for this amazing control deck.

Good luck, everyone, and happy playtesting.
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Dante
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2002, 05:45:41 pm »

Quote from: jpmeyer+Nov. 19 2002,15:40
Quote (jpmeyer @ Nov. 19 2002,15:40)
Quote from: The Bahoo+Nov. 19 2002,13:26
Quote (The Bahoo @ Nov. 19 2002,13:26)
Quote from: Zherbus+Nov. 19 2002,13:11
Quote (Zherbus @ Nov. 19 2002,13:11)Kills slighs REBS, PoP, Wastelands, and Pyroblasts. Negates Bloodmoon, choke, and Back to Basics.
Is that really worth losing the ability to chuck cards to FoW and Misdirection?  That seems like a big price to pay, considering there's cards in the sideboard to deal with most all of the effects you mentioned anyways (as well if not better).
You don't need to FoW nearly as often now when Sligh's most potent cards against you are worthless.
Plus, they are at the most useful (pitch counters) early game, before you'll cast the dawn.  I don't use it, but it doesn't make your pitch counters totally useless as you can still hard-cast them.  It does make a good portion of their deck useless (blasts, price, bloodmoon, etc).  It does turn Anarchy into an even-more must counter though as it will wipe out your artifacts or other permanents.

Dante
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Azhrei
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2002, 06:05:58 pm »

@ Dante: I'd love to see the Sligh deck that can resolve Anarchy.

@ Anyone who likes Vamp: NO NO NO NO NO!!!

As far as testing: I share a house with SliverKing, his brother, and another Vintage player. We play pretty much every day, with Keeper, TnT, Sligh, and various other decks. Pre-VA States my schoolwork took priority and I played maybe twice that month-- this build has probably 1-2 hours per day of games since Nov 3rd. It's pretty tested and VERY solid.

EDIT: SliverKing wants to make sure that it is understood that his build is the experimental one, and that mine is the baseline.\n\n

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BigChuck
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2002, 08:44:49 pm »

God Az...1-2 hours a day, and you have time to do other things?

But really though, why is he running fireball? I can see the possible upside to it, being (potential) mass creature kill, picking off a single creatues, or direct damage, but has it been THAT useful, or just mediocre?

On a side note, whats sliverkings real name?
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FeverDog
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2002, 09:21:24 pm »

Thank you for answering my questions guys, i still dont think CoP will make my maindeck, but at least i see why you chose it over Zorb.

I know a lot of people seem to want Vampiric Tutor back, and i was part of that club pre-Wish, but its just not needed anymore. With the pair of Wishes the deck effectively has 5 tutor effects, if that isnt enough for you then you need to learn to play Keeper better(no offense).

This is by far the most consistent Keeper i have ever played, and it is a welcome change to the norm. Good job guys.
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Fishhead
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2002, 09:26:04 pm »

Quote
Quote With the pair of Wishes the deck effectively has 5 tutor effects, if that isnt enough for you then you need to learn to play Keeper better(no offense).

I dont follow this logic.  Vampiric gets you *anything*.  The Abyss, the Balance, the MindTwist, the Strip Mine for their LoA.  Cunning Wish gets you ReBs, StPs and a couple other utility instants.  In no way does Cunning Wish replace Vampiric.

Quote
Quote Ah well, if anyone cares to tell me why nobody else plays Rage maindeck, I'd love to know.

Didnt Bob Maher play it in his deck for a while when the card first came out?  

Anyway, my problem with it is that it does exactly 10; no more, no less.  If I want to be putting burn directly on you, I want the option to go to 15 or 12 or 8 or whatever life you are currently at.  If I want to be burning a creature I dont want to be paying 3 for 3 damage.  

If it did exactly 4 I'd like it much more; then you could teach people not to Sylvan themselves to 4.  Wink
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Dante
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2002, 10:19:12 pm »

Quote from: Azhrei+Nov. 19 2002,17:05
Quote (Azhrei @ Nov. 19 2002,17:05)@ Dante: I'd love to see the Sligh deck that can resolve Anarchy.

@ Anyone who likes Vamp: NO NO NO NO NO!!!

As far as testing: I share a house with SliverKing, his brother, and another Vintage player. We play pretty much every day, with Keeper, TnT, Sligh, and various other decks. Pre-VA States my schoolwork took priority and I played maybe twice that month-- this build has probably 1-2 hours per day of games since Nov 3rd. It's pretty tested and VERY solid.

EDIT: SliverKing wants to make sure that it is understood that his build is the experimental one, and that mine is the baseline.
I was just saying you need to watch out for it now, that's all..especially if you can't pitch-cast FoW....  Wink

Dante
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Azhrei
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2002, 10:47:21 pm »

That's not EVERY day... some nights I have six hours of class after work. Basically I don't watch a lot of TV.

Josh Reynolds just likes his burn, I guess.
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PsychoCid
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2002, 10:55:30 pm »

Quote from: Fishhead+Nov. 19 2002,18:26
Quote (Fishhead @ Nov. 19 2002,18:26)
Quote
Quote With the pair of Wishes the deck effectively has 5 tutor effects, if that isnt enough for you then you need to learn to play Keeper better(no offense).

I dont follow this logic.  Vampiric gets you *anything*.  The Abyss, the Balance, the MindTwist, the Strip Mine for their LoA.  Cunning Wish gets you ReBs, StPs and a couple other utility instants.  In no way does Cunning Wish replace Vampiric.
Fishhead: Anything plus card disadvantage and the loss of a couple life.

If you need to find a card already in your deck and have no immediate way to find it, you can wish for a draw spell to dig.

Cunning Wish serves a function needed more than Vamp's, its pitchable to FoW/MisD, and doesn't hurt you so much against blue.
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Cuandoman
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2002, 01:38:26 am »

I belive, though, if you are going to play the GrimPower Combo, then the Vampiric should go in as well. I'm not saying that it's the right play to play the combe, just that the increased fetch maindeck would help accelerate it into play.
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Freddie
Guest
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2002, 11:23:48 am »

I have been recently started testing a similar build of "Paragon Keeper"

I am trying a config that resembles Big daddy Z's, but with 3 or so MD changes, excluding the mana base, and 2 SB changes.

I usually run Impulse in keeper, but am trying it without, and Brainstorm helps in a similar capacity.

My question, is:

If you exsisted in an aggro enviornemnt were Bloodmoon and B2B was popular (between the 2 decks making up 50% of a tournament) would you still NOT play a MD disenchant effect?

I agree that the wishes have been performing well for me (so far) but my nutsack shrivels up when Bloodmoon resolves, and I know that if I do not counter, I will have to find UW3, to allay from the SB, and even 3 more to buy back.

Even worse vs B2B... although I can also go for REB.

Mana (28)
4 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Dust Bowl
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Fetch

Counters (10)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Counter
1 Misdirection

Search/Tutoring (6)
2 Cunning Wish
2 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Draw(4)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction

Broken Utility (4)
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Zuran Orb

Kill (2)
2 Morphling

Removal (6)
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 The Abyss
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Moat
1 Powder Keg

Sideboard:
Instants (11)
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Misdirection
1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Ebony Charm

1 Aura Fracture
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black

For the most part, I have a really similar deck, with some of the SB cards brought into the MD to deal with my heave aggro enviornment.

Right now, I have avoided placing any basic land, because I really don't like them... and with more then 90% of the deck being non basic, I just went for the full gammit.

I hated drawing my island that had "Used to be a tundra" written on it, right when i needed that 2nd white to cast moat!

Thanks.

-Freddie
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Dozer
Guest
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2002, 12:00:49 pm »

I think this is where Keeper (finally) splits.

A lot of work went into the Paragon's version, and it looks pretty solid. I haven't tested it, though, because I have to get through with my Three-Wish-version first.

But I dare say this is The Split. At this very moment, there are two versions up and running: The Paragon Keeper (2 Brainstorm, 2 Wishes), and Combo Keeper (1 Vampiric, 1 Grim Monolith, 1 Power Artifact).

Cuandoman said it: If you run the Combo, you need Vampiric Tutor. He's right. I don't think Combo-players will cut the Vampiric in favour of Brainstorms, because there is only so much space, and since most Combo-players have already cut Fire/Ice (and, as far as I know, run 61 cards), two Brainstorms seem like an impossible fit.
From my personal point of view as a Combo-Keeper-player: Even if I were to cut the MD D-Blow for the second Cunning Wish, I'd not cut Vampiric.

I wonder if the Paragons have tested the Combo and if so, did they ever test it with Vampiric Tutor?

Dozer
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