Paragon Keeper

[spevack]

On the Vampiric tutor issue....

I tried cutting it for a while, and once I put it back in, I found that it made the deck stronger.  Keeper is a deck of specialized one-of answers -- silver bullets that single-handedly shut down opposing strategies -- and another tutor that lets you get whatever you want and slam it on top of your library is very valuable.  In terms of the card disadvantage argument, I find it moot since most cards that you will play make up for that disadvantage either through more drawing (VT for Ancestral or Fact) or negation of threats (VT for Abyss, Moat, Balance).

I firmly believe that Keeper should run all three tutors.

Allay is cool.  Shattering Pulse is cool.  What we really need is Disenchant with buyback -- that would be really cool.

[Fishhead]

Quote ....but there are other things that have come along since then.

This is a true point as far as it goes, but I don't think the logic follows all the way through.  If it did, you could say "Times have changed, Mystical sure *was* good, but with all these new cards theres just better stuff to play, including Merchant Scroll."  But if you said that, then I'd say "So we can safely unrestict Mystical?"    

I'm pretty sure if Mystical was unrestricted we'd see most Keeper decks playing in the 2-3 range, even at the expense of newer cards like Wishes.

Random Thought: So now that the sideboard is a resource with the Wishes, what R&D has to be thinking about is a sideboard hoser!  "Tormods Sideboard Crypt: 0,T: Place an opponents sideboard into their graveyard."  

[mezzir]

Quote (spevack @ Nov. 21 2002,17:13)What we really need is Disenchant with buyback --

yeah, and i need to get laid
tho one of those things isn't gonna happen anytime soon  

[Brislove]

Future Sight is almost always worth the turn against any sort of control (if it resolves).
i didn't mention it's synergy with sylvan library because in order to support the mana needed for FS I was thinking about a non-green keeper. That being said it does turn sylvan into a near ancestral every turn. which everyone agrees is just wrong . as for brainstorm if you cast it from you library..it's almost a non-targeted ancestral (but it does lose the "force oppenent" style points:p ).  

Keeper needs to undergo more changes before i belive that FS will become a staple card. however i think that more changes are still required for keeper to get back on top as one of the "decks to beat"

Cunning Wish has been all the rage recently. I personally am undecided on it.  it has helped me in a few games vs control and has been basically to slow against everything else. the only thing it has ever gotten me (when i wasn't already winning) was a teferi's response and it's been a 4cc StoP/REB.

Merchant Scroll Vs Vamp
merchant scroll gets ancestral
vamp gets anything. I personally ran both. However my merchant scrolls are leaving in favor of more brainstorms.
vamp is always good (Unless your at really low life) merchant scroll is good in the first 2 turns...after that i would hope you have already gotten your ancestral, or somthing better in the match (ie balance or abyss vs aggro)
note: this is in addition to mystical.

Alter reality on Bleach. That is a very good point gets around anarchy i would probably make it green or black so that you keep the 8 REB/Pyro Sligh Sides in useless.

[Azhrei]

Quote (Fishhead @ Nov. 21 2002,17:25)Random Thought: So now that the sideboard is a resource with the Wishes, what R&D has to be thinking about is a sideboard hoser!  "Tormods Sideboard Crypt: 0,T: Place an opponents sideboard into their graveyard."

That would make me SO happy. Anyone dumb enough to throw my whole sideboard into play when I am running YawgWill deserves exactly what they'd get.

[Dante]

Quote (Fishhead @ Nov. 21 2002,16:25)

Quote ....but there are other things that have come along since then.

This is a true point as far as it goes, but I don't think the logic follows all the way through.  If it did, you could say "Times have changed, Mystical sure *was* good, but with all these new cards theres just better stuff to play, including Merchant Scroll."  But if you said that, then I'd say "So we can safely unrestict Mystical?"    

I'm pretty sure if Mystical was unrestricted we'd see most Keeper decks playing in the 2-3 range, even at the expense of newer cards like Wishes.

Random Thought: So now that the sideboard is a resource with the Wishes, what R&D has to be thinking about is a sideboard hoser!  "Tormods Sideboard Crypt: 0,T: Place an opponents sideboard into their graveyard."  

the point there was at the time, the cards you mystical'd for were typically not blue...now there are a lot more good blue cards to make merchant scroll stronger (than it was earlier).  I still like vamp..although I'm testing without it for now.

Dante

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Cuandoman @ Nov. 21 2002,06:03)On a side note Bleach can be Alter Realitied to any color you want if need be. You still pay white mana for spells and your lands are still plains, yet if you alter it to BLUE you can use pitch counters again. (then again everything becomes a REB target) Just a thought!

I'm a bit sketchy on this.  If you Alter Reality Celestial Dawn to read "green" do you end up with Plains that make green mana that can be used for anything or do you lock your colors out because all your lands produce white mana which can't be used for anything?\n\n

[PsychoCid]

Alright, let's think about this.

The Deck was primarily a U/W deck that splashed other colors for some otherwise unavailable effects that helped with its shortcomings.  It was very focused on one sole item: survival.

The Keeper was almost quite literally a pile of good cards.  It sought to take control of your abilities and lock you with a neat little combo that 'kept' you near-powerless.

What we have today is somewhere inbetween the two workings, as 'Keeper,' as we refer to it now, is a pile of very broken cards, yet it's also very similar to what The Deck evolved into.  It is still primarily blue, white having been dropped as a major color because blue has become much more capable and efficient.  The more blue is in the deck, the more solid the deck is, both in draw and mana consistency.  The other colors are still only there to provide more brokenness/do things blue can't do, and are kept to a minimum, because that's all that is needed (redundant as this post is getting...).  At any rate, if you NEED vamp, then go with it. :/  If you don't, then you're better off without it, since you won't miss the card disadvantage, either.  I find Demonic/Mystical/Merchant/Wishes/Brainstorm to be enough.

You're just not going to prove to everyone that one way or the other is strictly better, especially considering a lot of them (I bet) are too stubborn to try it.

(And for the record, I was highly against the removal of vamp, and when I finally tried removing it, I kept it in my sb (wish) for quite a while.  I never needed it, so it was removed entirely, and I still don't want it back)

[DigDug]

Celestial Dawn
1WW
Enchantment
Nonland cards you own that aren't in play and nonland permanents you control are white.
Lands you control are plains.
Spells and abilities you control produce white mana instead of any other color.
You may spend white mana as though it were mana of any color.

You will have plains that produce G, which can be spent as if it were mana of any color.

[Matt The Great]

JP: no you would not lock yourself out. Dawn reads "Spells and abilities you control produce white mana instead of any other color. You may spend white mana as though it were mana of any color."

Your lands would indeed be plains making white mana but you can spend that white mana as any color. I think they added this specifically for Mtenda Lion.

[leviat]

I want to go back to Brainstorm for a moment.

Brainstorm seems to me like it's a good fit. It can dig down three card by essentially letting you swap three in your hand for three in your deck. But is this really the most optimal card for this?

I would like to entertain the idea of Tax Rack and talk about the advantages and disadvantages for a moment (and hopefully promote discussion on the not so obvious adv/dis).

Tax Rack vs Brainstorm

Points on Brainstorm
+ Brainstorm only costs 1 mana to "activate".
+ Brainstorm can be pitched to Force of Will.
+ Since Brainstorm draws one more card then it discards, it does not result in any card disadvantage.


Points on Scroll Rack
+ Scroll Rack can be used multiple times.
+ Scroll Rack only costs one colorless mana to "activate".
+ Scroll Rack can dig down more than three cards.
+ Provides an extra mana for Academy.
- Scroll Rack must be cast first, which results in one-card disadvantage and an extra two mana investment.
- Scroll Rack is vulnerable to Mox Monkey.
? Scroll Rack is a must counter.

Scroll Rack is a much more complex card than Brainstorm so it's not easy to say that it's "just more optimal" than Brainstorm.

In regards to the Paragon Keeper decklist (which looks great by the way), I'm going to test out replacing one of the Brainstorms with a Scroll Rack to see how it goes. With the insertion of the sack lands, Rack seems that it would be even more "abusable" then Brainstorm because of it's ability to dig down deeper.

[Ruboonia]

Anarchy is something to fear when playing with Celestial Dawn, although Alter Realitying the Anarchy to red is some good too.  

Actually, I just did that now, it was pretty fun.  Anarchy rules!  

[Rico Suave]

Um, just a quick question:

I remember many people were anal about adding Impulse because it cut down on the number of sheer business spells in the deck.

Where does Brainstorm fit into this?  Has the lack of quality spells been felt?

[Cuandoman]

Now that is a mise!

In all honesty I got the idea about Altering the Bleach (sounds like a chemistry project or something) when a friend brought up that Crusade would pump up Morphling.

i posted the image of celestial Dawn so that everyone could see how funky the interaction would be. Green cards, White CC and Plains. You all must remember that  is different than the word White.

[FeverDog]

Scroll Rack is a quality card, no question about that, but it doesnt really work that well in Keeper. The fact that you have to cast it during your turn and that you cant pitch it to Force, along with the fact that its not card-advantage, is why you dont see it in many keeper decks.

Again, i like the card a lot, but i just dont think it fits here, maybe if i had an empty slot i didnt know how to fill, but when has that ever happened with Keeper?

[Cartman316 _420]

Refer to the rules of this forum and stop posting decklists as a post.

-Zherbus

[Master Tap]

Its about time that someone put recall in the deck.  On another note I have found that fireball has been a beast in the deck. Though you do lose the pitch ability you get from F/I you easly gain it back with the extra U cards in the deck.

[Oldschool]

Brainstorm fits because we have eliminated redundant spells and other spells we've moved to the sideboard. With Cunning Wish you can basically remove your enchantment and single target creature elimintation from the deck. Sylvan can go because with sac lands and brainstorm you can dig and search quite well. Regrowth is good but not worth adding green for and Yawg Will works very well in it's place. The deck is now more streemlined and solid IMO. Once TNT was able to run over Keeper pretty badly, but with these changes i see Keeper being able to handle TNT and Sui a lot better. Brainstorm is so nice against hand hate and Cunning Wish can get those specific cards that can wreck TNT.

[leviat]

How often do you find yourself sitting on extra cards that can be tossed away to Recall? I have chosen to use Relearn because I don't often find myself having an extra card to dump.

[jpmeyer]

All right I checked Crystal Keep and it actually works if you change "white" or "Plains."  You can have Plains that make green or Forests that make white.

[riverboa11]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Nov. 22 2002,10:06)Um, just a quick question:

I remember many people were anal about adding Impulse because it cut down on the number of sheer business spells in the deck.

Where does Brainstorm fit into this?  Has the lack of quality spells been felt?

Brainstorm is absolutely ridiculous with the Fetch Lands.  I thought it would be too janky at first, but after a couple of games my opinion was quickly changed.  Try it, and I bet you'll like it.

Btw, good to see you again Brad.  

[CrazyCarl]

If you're going to run Scroll Rack, why not just run Soothsaying?  I understand it's like a BS every turn, but at least Soothsaying is blue

I however, do not recommend either card(Scroll Rack is really only good with something like Land Tax, otherwise, you just can't abuse it, and where's the fun in that?).

Carl

[Fishhead]

Quote If you're going to run Scroll Rack, why not just run Soothsaying?

Scroll Rack lets you do tricks at instant speed.  Like a Brainstorm, you can hide critical cards from discard or set yourself up to recover from Balance.  Soothsaying just improves the quality of your upcoming draws.

You can still abuse Scroll Rack (sorta); having access to 14 cards instead of 7 is very sweet.  If this is true:

Quote Brainstorm is absolutely ridiculous with the Fetch Lands.  

then Scroll Rack would be all that times 2.  It has the same synergies as Brainstorm but with a potential to exchange many more cards.  Obvious downsides are that it cost 2 to cast and then cost 1 to activate and that it gets smashed by Keg or Shattering Pulse.  

Its an interesting call; for now I consider the Brainstorm slots to be up for grabs as the deck develops and so ideas like Scroll Rack (which always were on the cusp before) may catch on.

[PsychoCid]

Brainstorm and Soothsaying are blue and cost 1 mana.  One of them was at one point the 'type 2 Ancestral.' because it provides a +3 QUALITY effect when combined with shuffling.  Soothsaying provides quality increase in your draws to come (not immediately) and is less than card parity.

Scroll Rack is not blue, costs 2 mana, is not an instant, and is less than card parity.  Are you going to go lotus-rack-activate turn one to avoid that Duress they might not have when they make their first move?  Yeah, it's good later, when, once it's in play, is somewhat of a more effective Soothsaying, but by then you would a) already have stabilized enough to win or b) have been able to Brainstorm into something else useful (whether it be removal, a tutor, more draw, etc.).

As for Impulse, it costs 1 more and doesn't empty your hand of a couple cards you don't need.  Impulse is only better for digging deeper to find a PARTICULAR answer, hence it shines mostly in mono-blue and combo.  Brainstorm is used, here, to help maintain consistency and to improve your hand by more than trading itself for one other thing.

[jdl]

Because of this thread, I went against my better judgement and put Keeper back together.  I played the list Zherbus posted on page 1, with the following changes.

MD
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Merchant Scroll
+1 City of Brass
+1 Moat

SB
-1 Moat
+1 CoP: Red

I played a few games to get a feel for how this deck played as opposed to the 5-color Keeper I typically use.  In tonight's tournament I ended up winning, despite my first two rounds consisting of a loss and a draw.  Quickly, my matches were Academy-like combo (1-2),  WBu aggro/control/wierd (1-1-1), sui (2-0), BG aggro (2-0), Academy-like combo (2-1), Academy (concede).

Some comments.

MD Moat: My meta is very aggro, so this was an easy call.  It was a game winner several times.

Brainstorm + Delta: This was really good.  Being able to hide cards first-turn with the Brainstorm was key in a couple of my games.  Fetchlands continue to amaze me.

Cunning Wish: I'm still not sold on this.  Only a few times did I actually use one to get something useful from my sideboard.   I made some amazingly broken plays involving Wish, Ancestral, and Yawgmoth's Will.  Three mana, though, jeeze.  

Dustbowl: I underestimated this card.  In certain matchups, this card is unreal.  It's even a Mana Drain sink.

Vampiric Tutor: I sucked it up and played without this tutor.  I can't say that I ever missed it.  I know that it should be better than Mystical, but it's not blue.  All of my lands can give me blue.  Not all of them can give me black.  This was huge on the first turn.

Disenchant effects: I missed my MD disenchant effect.  I don't know what to say really.  Shattering Pulse and Allay did their thing, but I never realised how much I use Dismantling Blow.  This one _might_ have to find its way back in.

I'm going to keep this version together and play it some more over the next couple weeks.  It's going to be very interesting to see what little tweaks occur over that time.

-- Jim

[Dozer]

Quote Random Thought: So now that the sideboard is a resource with the Wishes, what R&D has to be thinking about is a sideboard hoser!  "Tormods Sideboard Crypt: 0,T: Place an opponents sideboard into their graveyard."

Random Answer: It's been made already.

Jester's Sombrero (Unglued Rare)
2
Artifact
2, T, Sacrifice Jester's Sombrero: Look through target player's sideboard and remove any three of those cards from it for the remainder of the match.
"¡Yo quiero Kormus Bell!"

Dozer

[Rico Suave]

I'm concerned about the comboish aspect of Brainstorm.  I've been stuck with Brainstorm and no shuffler on more than one occassion.  When I desperately need something and Brainstorm into what I don't need, I screw myself for 2 turns to redraw the crap cards.  Only 7 cards shuffle in this deck, if memory serves me correctly.  That's not THAT much.

I do like Brainstorm.  I really do.  It's just that Keeper isn't desperate to fill up slots, there are many cards which I'd like to see in it.

Btw, hi Jeremy.

[DigDug]

I've been experimenting with Brainstorms and the maindeck CoP.  The jury is still out on the latter, but I do like the former as long as there are at least three Brainstorms.  I like the fact that I have more blue cards.  There are times that you have to suck it up and Brainstorm aggressively.  Otherwise, I'll let them sit in my hand until I can get the maximum use out of them.  It does help that I have nine shufflers maindeck and four more in the sideboard as opposed to just seven.  Just when I got comfortable with the deck, it has become a challenge to learn when to Brainstorm now and when to wait a turn.

If I keep the maindeck Circle and sideboard a Mind Bend, I'll be more reliant on Cunning Wish.  I'll then add a second Cunning Wish when I find another foil and I may consider replacing the Vampiric Tutor with a second Merchant Scroll.  Just as a sidenote, I like Mind Bend over Alter Reality because I can hack Bloodmoon and Choke, too.  They're far more prevalent and troublesome than Anarchy.

[Fishhead]

Quote I've been experimenting with Brainstorms and the maindeck CoP.  The jury is still out on the latter, but I do like the former as long as there are at least three Brainstorms.  

Have you tried 3 Impulses in the same slot?  Thats the benchmark I'm interested in, but I've been too busy to try it for myself.

[Brislove]

I'm the so-called academy like combo... when people call it academy i say i run academy... it uses helms and academy and draw sevens..i wouldn't consider that academy. i don't win in 1 turn it's a turn combo based on mirari+walk+relearn+regrowth. it does alot better vs control then academy could hope to since it is very draw heavy (4 concentrate=good) i plan to post it soon but i have been busy.

ok off that little tangent. Jdl Beat me in the top 4 because of and only because of dust bowl.
i had a second turn city of solitude resolve but between the dust bowl and the mox monkey i couldn't generate any mana to absolutly wreck him.

i think highly of scroll rack. But first turn brainstorm second turn fetch is just superb. granted you can still do this with rack, however you have to have a mox in order to do so. Also rack isn't blue. can't be pitched to force and doesn't cantrip. if you have a bad hand rack is about equal to brain storm if you have a good hand rack is bad (unless you really need to dig)  brainstorm is always very solid in that it at least cantrips.