TnT with black: Legion

[Cancerman]

Correct me if I'm worng, but isn't time vault permited to play?
Then in that case, couldn't we abuse it with the Goblin Welder???  

Just asking...  

[j_orlove]

Vault has errata. You can't get extra turns without skipping a turn first:

Quote Time Vault

Color= Artifact  Type= Artifact  Cost= 2 A®/B®/U®  
Text (ABU+errata): ~this~ comes into play tapped. ;
 ~this~ doesn't untap during your untap step. ;
 Skip your next turn: Untap ~this~ and put a time counter on it. ;
 ,Remove all time counters from ~this~: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability only if there's a time counter on ~this~. [Oracle 2001/08/24]

Before the errata, there were a lot of tricks to getting infinite turns. The errata stops all of them. [D'Angelo 1998/02/03]
You can play the untap ability any time you can play an instant. It causes you to skip your next turn. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]
If you untap this Vault more than once or untap multiple Vaults, then you will end up skipping multiple turns. In other words, the skipping is saved up until you skip that many turns. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]
If you try to use the Vault before you skip a turn, then you will end up skipping the newly created turn. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]
If multiple "extra turn" effects resolve in the same turn, take them in the reverse of the order that the effects resolved. [CompRules 2002/02/20 - 300.6] See Rule P.2.3.
Type 1 tournaments (see Rule D.13) banned this card from 1994/03/23 to 1996/04/01. It was made legal again when errata was issued. It was previously on the restricted list from 1994/01/25 to 1994/03/22.
Extended tournaments (see Rule D.15) have always banned this card.
Note - Also see Skipping a Phase, Rule G.36.
Note - It is of type "Artifact" and not "Mono Artifact". [Encyclopedia, Page 208]

[Jesse Driggers]

I played a version of this deck at the Savannah t1 on sunday, and came in 4th.  I'm going to post my list and a tourney report soon.

[urza's child]

Okay so TnT usually has some problems with dragon, and some creature control. Well, my friend brought something up.

Dense Foliage

Its an enchantment that you can consistantly get out by turn 2, you can still weld, but they cant do anything to stop you. I think this card is great and every sideboard should run a couple, any suggestions or opinions?

(HAH hulk3rules this was a dam insightful post, booya)

[j_orlove]

Well, against Dragon, you have Duresses, Naturalizes, and Blood Moons. But I don't see how Foliage helps there, anyway. And removal isn't that big an issue. Seriously, in basically every situation where it helps, Blood Moon is just better by so much.

[Zherbus]

Legion
Creatures (14)
       4 Juggernaut
       4 Su-Chi
       1 Quirion Ranger
       2 Triskelion
       1 Masticore
       1 Anger
       1 Gorilla Shaman
       1 Elvish Lyrist
Engine (12)
       4 Survival of the Fittest
       4 Goblin Welder
       2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
       2 Oath of Ghouls
Broken things (6)
       2 Sylvan Library
       1 Demonic Tutor
       1 Vampiric Tutor
       1 Memory Jar
Lands (28)
       3 Wooded Foothill
       2 Windswept Heath
       1 Grim Monolith
       2 Forest
       4 Mishra´s Workshop
       1 Strip Mine
       1 Wasteland
       4 Taiga
       3 Bayou
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Emerald
SB:  3 Bloodmoon
SB:  3 Duress
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Naturalize
SB:  2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB:  1 Bottle Gnomes
SB:  1 Bone Shredder

A few notes:

On card choices

Only 1 Triskellion - I really don't like this right now and after some more testing, specifically against aggro, I will hopefully feel that I can cut Masticore for the second Triskellion back.

2 Sylvans really make this deck that much more aggressive. Ultimately, I wanted to add a 3rd Oath of Ghouls. I had decided that Sylvan will help find the existing OoGs better with the aid of both the fetchlands and the tutors.

The last Wasteland keep staring at me. I think I want it to be either a 3rd forest, a City of Brass, or a Tolarian Academy.

On the deck in general[/u]

First, I have seen on this board, and on others (yes, I read what you people say behind my back on other sites), that people are constantly comparing this to it's R/G/u father.

The lists I have initially come up with haven't been as refined as I'd have liked. Only Carl Devos (Thanks Carl!) from the Paragons initially responded to my email (and he did it privately) when I first came up with the idea. Also, only FeverDog has really tried the deck to serve of any sort of brainstorming help in its earlier stages.

Now that this thread has been put up, there are alot more options I have to explore and test. Many great ideas came from this thread (Thanks Nameless...where were you on the Paragons list 2 months ago? ), and now I feel that Legion can make it to the next level in its evolution.

I wont make any claims other than it really takes TnT in a separate direction. I think it has greater potential than the blue splash as I am not happy with the 'late game' traditional TnT provides. I really think that between the three primary skeletons of TnT (R/G/u, R/G, and R/G/b) each play very differently. Strictly speaking, each build of TnT should reflect your metagame.

I just so happen to play against my own variant of Keeper piloted by some good players and beating the traditional TnT has become easier. I think that as time wore on, TnT became easier and easier to beat because aggro players are lazy and generally stick to the 'ram-head-into-wall-and-it-will-eventually-break' method of playing Type 1.

I really feel that to continue to be a force in Type 1, a deck needs to alter its approach to throw the occasional curve ball at the opposition. This is my curve ball, and I am continually 'perfecting' it until it becomes prepared for, or changes the metagame.

EDIT: -1 Wheel of Fortune, +1 Trisk.

[Lord of the Goats]

i like that build a lot more. how has cutting the second trikillion effected the sligh matchup? i've always found that im always happy to have a second.

i say cut the strips.... i've only have a library more than cantrip once ever and there's no lands that you really need to kill. with only the 2 you have now it's extremly unlikley that you will draw multiples, and 1 waste isn't going to inhibit combo (except academy which i havn't seen while running tnt ever).

what do you find that you really need lyrist against? i most comonly use it against trix... which says somthing in the usefulness of lyrist since i've faced trix a whoping 2 times. that's not saying that you don't need it, but i'm wondering what you see that warrents it being main.

how much mask do you see? that's the main matchup where i feel that there's a clear advantage of blue over black. you don't seem particularly concerned about it

[FeverDog]

I really like the new version Steve, although i would also like to see a second Trisk in there. The problem with TNT is that there are so many cards you want to try and fit in that it becomes almost impossible. Personally, i have been very happy with Masticore, and i wouldnt consider cutting him, however it really depends on how much aggro you tend to see, and the deck can certainly function without it. Of course, although i know i dont have to repeat it, i think you should cut the Wasteland for another Forest. Please dont swap it for an Academy, you want as many green sources as possible and the deck is already explosive enough without it.

[j_orlove]

Well, Academy never worked for me, and I wouldn't suggest it.

I'm glad to see 2x Sylvan found their way back in, The card is broken.

I like 2x trisk also, but I'm not sure what I would cut to make room...possibly Wheel or Jar?

Quote what do you find that you really need lyrist against?

Well, there's Moat. And a whole bunch of other random things like Survival, Planar Void, B2B, etc. Enchantment kill is nice to have.

[Zherbus]

Quote what do you find that you really need lyrist against? i most comonly use it against trix... which says somthing in the usefulness of lyrist since i've faced trix a whoping 2 times. that's not saying that you don't need it, but i'm wondering what you see that warrents it being main.

how much mask do you see? that's the main matchup where i feel that there's a clear advantage of blue over black. you don't seem particularly concerned about it

Thanks for the comments, Alex. Your insight is something I want added to this thread though you play a different version with tons of success.

1) Random things mostly. In a perfect world I would play against BBS, Sligh, Gro, Keeper, rince and repeat. However, we often get to face such random treasures as Reanimator, random beatdown, and Enchantress. Not that these are bad, but its better to have something to answer it than not.

Also, keep in mind that without Wonder, it would suck to see a Moat hit play. Especially with no Strips to hold it off.

2) I see Mask from time to time, but its really spurratic. I think Uktabi Orangutan might make a come back if it ever became a threat locally. Maybe even Woodripper.

Quote Please dont swap it for an Academy, you want as many green sources as possible and the deck is already explosive enough without it.

I would only really consider putting in Academy if I decided Masticore was really a key card in many matchups.

Quote I like 2x trisk also, but I'm not sure what I would cut to make room...possibly Wheel or Jar?

Never, ever, ever on Jar. However you hit a solid homerun with Wheel of Fortune. As great of luck as I have had with it, it makes sense to cut. With the 2 Sylvans I already have a good card drawing deal going. Wheel is nice and it often offsets the symmetrical card gain against control, but I do side it out too often to have it be worthy of a maindeck slot.

-1 Wheel
+1 Triskellion

[FeverDog]

I know you hate posts that say nothing, but i fully support that decision. I never liked Wheel in TNT, but i wrote it off as a preference thing, however im glad you cut it.  

[Zherbus]

Yeah, in retrospect, I am glad as well.

A few things that I tried and didn't work out:

Avalanche Riders - Too difficult to cast, let alone repeatedly.

3rd Oath of Ghouls Main/SB - It's hard to squeeze in when you already have other bombs to bump cards out for. Choke/Bloodmoon and Duress are quite strong and outweigh the need for a 3 OoG.

Things I really still need to look at but haven't had time:
Filth - Seems great against Keeper, Tog, mono-black, and ICT! (I am kidding of course.)

Choke - Yeah, it is great against many decks, however Bloodmoon is basically the decks only shot against combo and aids in the smashing of Gro-A-Tog.

[walking dude]

You say Mask isn't common in your area so this doesn't apply to you but does speak to the deck in general. I've been playtesting your build, and since cutting the sex monkey I'm around 2-10 against BU mask. That's terrible. If anyone wants to take this thing for a spin in a random enviornment where people have accsess to power (online for example) I would add the monkey back and maybe an elvish scrapper.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Zherbus @ Feb. 20 2003,08:08)

Quote what do you find that you really need lyrist against? i most comonly use it against trix... which says somthing in the usefulness of lyrist since i've faced trix a whoping 2 times. that's not saying that you don't need it, but i'm wondering what you see that warrents it being main.

how much mask do you see? that's the main matchup where i feel that there's a clear advantage of blue over black. you don't seem particularly concerned about it

Thanks for the comments, Alex. Your insight is something I want added to this thread though you play a different version with tons of success.

1) Random things mostly. In a perfect world I would play against BBS, Sligh, Gro, Keeper, rince and repeat. However, we often get to face such random treasures as Reanimator, random beatdown, and Enchantress. Not that these are bad, but its better to have something to answer it than not.

Also, keep in mind that without Wonder, it would suck to see a Moat hit play. Especially with no Strips to hold it off.

2) I see Mask from time to time, but its really spurratic. I think Uktabi Orangutan might make a come back if it ever became a threat locally. Maybe even Woodripper.

while i do agree that some random things need to be dealt with, i feel that the vast majority of them are either not a factor game 1 (moat, b2b) or are so obsure that you can wait till game 2 to deal with it. a lot of things can just be played around (moat again).  i definatly lyrist is a candidate to be pushed out of the main deck if you want to fit other stuff in.

mask looks very tough for you, it's probably the main reason i've been reluctant to embrace this deck since it's definatly a factor for me.

how are chains working out? they look like they'll singlehandedly wreck some stuff. i used to joke about chains and bloodmoon being the only cards that wrecked turboland... of course no one even considered chains then. it looks like it could be too little too late if you don't get it early though.

[Zherbus]

I think probably the best choice would be to cut the Lyrist and rely on Naturalize in the board to deal with things like Humility and Moat.

I could always ditch Naturalize in the board for Lyrists, which will shore up some holes while opening others. Personally, I prefer keeping Naturalize in the board to get the things that randonly pop up here like Dragon.

However, I had another idea. I'm sure it won't be popular, but I am giving it a few games of testing. I am testing Scrapper in the Quirion Ranger slot. I hate to do that, but here is my reasoning:

1) I am not suffering on mana draws with the current manabase.

2) If you are using Welder already, you are winning. I know just how broken and game ending Rangers can be with Welders, but if I am winning anyways, then so be it.

3) With a pair of Sylvans, usually one resolves early allowing me to dig aggressively for land if need be.

If I find that opposing Wastelands hurt too much or that Welders really do need that boost, then obviously the change will be reverted.

[FeverDog]

Man, i love you Steve  

I made the exact change to my TNT deck a few weeks ago and i havent looked back. I never mentioned it because i knew that cutting Ranger would be quite unpopular and i didnt feel like justifying my choice to anyone. I totally agree with your reasoning, which is why i decided to cut the Ranger, in my case for a Regrowth because i was already running Scrapper main.

Id like to make a point about the Scrapper. I see a lot of ppl not running any and it truly baffles me, you are playing a deck with Survival in it, why wouldnt you protect yourself against artifacts as well as enchantments? I understand that Lyrist is more important, but dont overlook how annoying a Null Rod can be, not to mention Mask. In a case where there are no targets at all for it, then hes still Survival fodder as well as a 1/1 for 1 which isnt awful. I like him better than Sex Monkey for a fewl reasons, he is cheaper to recur by one mana and he doesnt force you to destroy an artifact when you play him.

I hate to sound like im kissing ass, but it just so happens that we are on the same page when it comes to this deck.

[Nimrod]

I actually removed the ranger since the RGu version, and never even tried it in Legion, but I wanted to do some more testing before posting anything this controversial in the extreme vintage forum, sadly, birthday (which, for me, is at least 3 days of celebration), school and homework has been in the way. I first tried a land in its place (so, i tried city of brass in that place, big deal, i wanted consistency =P). But given that my mana base has been very stable and I often have 1 more mana than what I need, Ill use the spot for testing purpose.

Has anyone tried the bone shredder maindeck? Maybe I have been playing agaisnt way too many jank lately, but I have been wishing it was in my hand lately.

[Matt The Great]

Wouldn't Scavenger Folk be technically better than Elvish Scrapper, not only because it's cooler/older and better known (I hate having to look up new cards), but also because Engineered Plague randomness is more of a consideration than Coat of Arms randomness?

[Terevaune]

just a random though, feel free to flame, but what about living wish for things like lyrist/ranger, svanger folk etc?

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Terevaune @ Feb. 22 2003,00:08)just a random though, feel free to flame, but what about living wish for things like lyrist/ranger, svanger folk etc?

Living Wish is too slow, and it can't be fetched w/ Survival when needed.  Either the utility creatures should be MDed, or put in the sideboard to be brought in.

Running that card wouldn't add any flexibility or speed to the deck.

[Zherbus]

Living Wish was considered, actually. Other than the fact that it's a little slower, the main thing was that it ate slots that I couldn't abuse with Survival. Also, there really isn't a number of strong bullets in these colors to make it quite have the same punch.

EDIT:

This was posted in the Unregistered Forum and was answered there. I figured for the sake of discussion, I would copy it here:

Quote Well, I am sorry to post this way down here in Newbie-ville, but I had a few questions/comments relevent to Zherbus's new R/G/b TnT build that is being discussed in the EVF.  If this kind of thing isn't cool please feel free to do what you like with this post (I am sure you were waiting for my permission   )

I really like the new build but a few things occured to me.

1.  Enchantment overload:  After sideboard this build has 13 big threats against Keeper that are enchantments.  These are its only real card advantage threats.  Every one of them is very, very strong, but I wonder if they aren't overkill.  Most Keeper builds run Allay and Aura Fracture as their only enchantment kill.  If I am playing Keeper and I know your only way of gaining a real advantage in the game is through enchantments, and that you are running 13 of them, I am going to try extremely hard to get one of my two ways to kill these permanents, which incidentally negate all 13 in one blow.

I think that running this many important threats that can be addressed through a single card (especially if you rely on them for your late game) is asking to be taken out of the game with a single tutor.  Once your are running enough enchantments to force Keeper to scramble for one of its two answers haven't you done your job?  If they get their answer then it continues to work on every other business spell you draw you lose.  If they get it then they don't need it again because you start on a different threat catagory entirely you win.

That brings me to question #2.

2. Creature threat diversification:  In my experience the Keeper-TnT matchup often goes like this.

1. TnT gets a fast start that Keeper somehow handles.
2. Keeper inhibits TnT's ability to generate strong threats with either mana denial or Shattering Pulse.
3. TnT loses.

Even in games where the Survival engine gets going Keeper can sometimes stall with Shattering Pulse and wastelands long enough to pull out the win.  As a Keeper player I have frequently seen TnT decks unable to find any threat to Survival for becuase their Workshop has been wasted and they don't have an artifact for the Goblin.

For this reason I think that having a single non-artifact threat bears examining, most likely as a sideboard option.

One strong possibility for this potential slot might be Nimble Mongoose.  Another might be Phyrexian Negator.

I am not sure that this is necessary, but it seems worth examining given the amount of hate out there and Zherbus's 'curveball' principal.

I hope these ideas generate some discussion.  I really enjoy reading these boards and am glad for the chance to contribute.

Leo

..and here is my response.

Game 1, Aura fracture isn't accessable. Allay needs to be Cunning Wished, which means it can't grab things like Pulse, STP, or Ebony Charm. Game 2, sure they side in those cards which are obviously good against Legion.

Keep in mind that non-'Legion' builds of TnT are simply a creature element for the offensive with a smattering of enchantment threats. They can counter a Survival, Fracture (which actually has a side effect of stunting Keepers development) a Oath of Ghouls, but there is still a 5/3 swinging at them.

Keeper, outside of combo, will always be one of TnT's toughest fights. As a Keeper player (I am one of the Paragons remember ;P), I personally have a flawless tournament record against TnT and a very favorable playtest record. That's because, like every chum alive, I know how to beat TnT. I knows what makes it tick and I know how to make that tick stop.

My curve ball theory is what makes Gro-a-Tog the deck to beat for the first few months of its conception, its what made TnT so popular in its first half year, it's what changes the format and keeps players on their feet. I expect (read: hope) that this alters enough of TnT's offensive that players again have to adjust playstyle and possible sideboard slots and in the meantime lose some games to Legion.

As for question #2, there really isn't a possibility for that. Firstly, because you want your Workshop mana to be as useful as possible so you can keep the rest of the manabase tight (like a tiger). It's bad enough you can't use it for all the enchantments I have.

Secondly, because there is just no room without cutting something important in the deck list. One could always side Flametongue Kavu over Bone Shredder and beat with that if he desired.

[dicemanX]

@Zherbus

I have a few questions for you regarding the R/G/b build. I have been working on this version of the deck and have been experimenting with various MD configurations. I have noticed the following:

1. I don't like to have more than two MD Oath of Ghouls.
2. I haven't been impressed too much with MD Tutors at all.

In my Legion deck, I have been running 2 OoG, with a Lotus, Jet, 4xFetchland, 3x Bayou (I like to use 2x basic Forests) for sources of B mana.

My main reason for not running many B cards is mainly a mana issue, along with a tempo issue with respect to the tutors. While it might seem that running "9" B mana sources should be enough to support 4-5 black cards, my experiences so far have proven otherwise. At times it's a difficult decision to fetch a Bayou with a fetchland, because red can sometimes be in short supply and you might need to fetch Taigas early instead to cast the Welders or have an active Anger. I've had games where my black cards have sat in my hand for a while, reducing my options during the course of the early game. The Tutors present a different problem altogether as well. While their flexibility is fantastic, they can be the cause of critical tempo loss - instead of casting a must-counter threat, you must from time to time take a full turn to tutor something up. This can give control another turn to come up with an answer or give a fast aggro deck some more time to administer beatings. Sometimes I would wish that the tutors I had in hand were just another "big" threat that would impact the game immediately.

I'd like to know what your experiences have been on the mana and tempo issues. Perhaps you are running a different mana configuration (BoP? 4th Bayou? More Fetchlands?). I welcome any imput from other players that have some experience with Legion as well.

[Zherbus]

Actually, I ended up cutting that lone Waste for another Bayou. Now I am up to: Lotus, Jet, 4 Bayou, 5 Fetchlands (I still used 2 Forests). I haven't had any significant mana issue out of the normal wierd hands that give you poop that you could draw with almost any deck. If you run Wastelands, try tossing them out.

As for the tutors, Vampiric Tutor keeps nudging me to cut it, but it hasn't steered me wrong yet. Until I decide I have lost tempo (my hand is just about spent when I tutor), it'll stay until at least then.

[Angus]

I'm probably missing something obvious here, but why 3x Wooded Foothills and 2x Windswept Heath?  In a deck with no white, why not 4x Wooded Foothills and 1x Windswept Heath?

[Zherbus]

I did that specifically so people would ask me about that. In reality, it makes no difference.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Zherbus @ Feb. 22 2003,02:50)Game 1, Aura fracture isn't accessable. Allay needs to be Cunning Wished, which means it can't grab things like Pulse, STP, or Ebony Charm. Game 2, sure they side in those cards which are obviously good against Legion.

Keep in mind that non-'Legion' builds of TnT are simply a creature element for the offensive with a smattering of enchantment threats. They can counter a Survival, Fracture (which actually has a side effect of stunting Keepers development) a Oath of Ghouls, but there is still a 5/3 swinging at them.

aura fracture is one big pain in the ass for my version as well, wich runs bloodmoon under the premesis of deversification of threats. while i do agree that it is a good thing to do, when 1 card can wipe out 1/3 of your deck and is reuseable that's not a good thing.  so you do make their enchantment removal a lot better and in a way it makes it easier for keeper to play it. in my testing keeper needs to wish for allay to kill survival more often than pulse anyway. it's nice if that's all it can do.

also, keeper can kill your threats whenever they want (well, once they find them). a resolved bloodmoon prevents them from killing stuff without wasting 1 wish on beb first. making keeper wish for a 1 time solution is a good thing considering their solutions are limited to begin with.


keep in mind that my r/g/u tnt is highly enchantment based too, and does use them for the same purpose as legion. just killing a generalization.

[Dream_Merchant]

the idea of the krovikan horror is interesting
since the deck runs two squees it could replace one to add a bonus utility against stp and act as a goblin bombardment not to mention interact with su-chi
at least in rec/sur he is a deafinite in

[Zherbus]

I have moved Lyrist to the board and cut the Bone Shredder. In the Lyrists place is now a Plaguebearer which ought to handle Mask nicely.

Plaguebearer  1B EX®
Text (EX+errata): 1/1. ; {X}{B}: Destroy target
nonblack creature with converted mana cost equal to X.
[Oracle 1999/05/01]

A Shaman for critters!

Thanks to Leviat and Kl0wn for that bit of tech.

[urza's child]

Plaguebearer is good, but once April 1st rolls around, can TnT really afford not to have waterfront bouncer? Because im puttin my bets that tog decks are gonna be huge

[Zherbus]

If Tog decks do indeed run 4 Berserks to combo out aggro, I would probably do something different. My options would be to either find something in red, green, or black to solve the issue or to go to R/G/u and run Bouncer.

HOWEVER! Keeper players everywhere rejoiced at the chance that Tog decks would be running more Berserks making their spot removal more effective. The most vocal Tog players are now relaxing a bit and going towards the 1 maindeck/1 sideboard split which makes things a whole lot better for TnT.