Breaking Future Sight

[Azhrei]

2UW is one off color mana, and 1RB is two. Anything that is part blue is much easier to cast, protect, and resolve.

[Zherbus]

1. Blue is never a problem. 1 secondary color is obviously better than 2 secondary colors.

2. Instant speed matters. For purposes of EOT, end-of-counter wars, etc.

3. The arguement that a GAT player could Misdirect an STP to a Dryad really doesn't give any leverage to Innocent Blood since they could just choose to sacrifice the Dryad over the Tog.

EDIT: Damn you Darren, we posted too closely together.

[Azhrei]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Don't reveal my real name!!!! You've ruined the mystique!!!

[Grand Inquisitor]

games 2&3 against GAT, combo keeper has:
2-3 StP
3-4 ReB
and either MD or wishables:
Chainer's Edict (recurrable)
Vindicate
Balance
Fireball (don't laugh)

And this is just our reactive cards; they have to stop all of our bombs, all while dealing with duress, loa & multiple strips.

There will be games where the right colors don't show up, but in general you can cast key spells even in the first 4 turns.

I certainly wouldn't say its a good matchup, but its peanuts compared to Urphid.

[Zherbus]

Quote games 2&3 against GAT, combo keeper has:
2-3 StP
3-4 ReB

Not in the lists we were discussing. The whole point I am trying to make (or be told otherwise, I really am open to this) is that I think those 1-2 extra STP's and REB's really help some problem matchups.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Since Ophidian apparently hasn't been printed in Germany, I think that is one area you neglect to take into consideration. That is fine of course, since we are all just trying to win in our respective metagames. With little (non-Burning Wish) spot removal, I suspect a rough game against Ophidian, aggro-control decks, and possibly Mask (another absense from Germany).

Well, the Snake seems to belong to the endangered species in germany, maybe because so much artifact fat ruled the world and now even bigger things from the Wood and Swamps have taken over... And yes, I am quite happy to see no UrPhid with Shining, Blood Moon sucks big time. I'll comment on Aggro-Control and Mask later.

Quote Noticing that you are going with Power Artifact, all that is needed to bring it a step closer to Paragon Keeper is Cunning Wishes over Burning Wishes.

I play a version of Paragon Keeper myself, which is very close to yours, at least the one you last posted, I think.
The Shining plays extremly different.
First thing, the notable absence of Morphling. Needing more than one turn to kill just doesn't suit this deck. Power Artifact gets removed because its sole purpose is the kill. This is not enough to warrant inclusion for this deck, a card has to do something else. Lands, Fastbond, Wishes and Future Sight all do that.
Second is the use of Burning Wish. I do think Cunning Wish is a much better choice for an control deck like regular (Paragon) Keeper is one. It gives you the solutions you need for this situation. Burning Wish is like handmade for combo-decks. It doesn't usually give you a solution, it does give you a bomb. What Shining does is play control for the few turns it needs to build up resources (even Burning Wish is good enough as a control-tool to do that), and then play a stream of bombs that will eventually overhelm the opponents defenses and get a Future Sight to stick. And once you untap with Sight in play, you usually win.
This brings me to

Quote Another thought I wanted to share was Duress vs. REB. I understand this may be entirely metagame dependant here, but Duress doesn't kill a Tog and Burning Wish doesn't fetch anything that is efficient to kill it. With only the 2 maindeck Swords, are you having problems with Tog? If so, are you going this particular direction because the Tog just isn't as much of a presense?

Innocent Blood is efficient enough surprisingly often, but that's beside the point. What gives Shining a fair chance in the GAT (and other Aggro-Control) matchup is the beforementioned number of (nonmisdirectable) bombs. GAT does only run that many counters and if one of the bombs resolves, it usually leads to more resolving bombs. ->Game. The real problem is an early clock (1st to 3rd turn Dryad), that can finish you, before your bombs have worn down GATs defenses. Instead of going the control-way, onto beating which GAT is tuned, like most T1 aggro-control, Shining goes the combo-way, making it a little harder for GAT to keep up. (remember this is for the GAT matchup only, don't play that way against control or combo)
I had tested more REBs but it seemed a lot more useful to me to be able to take one stopper for my threads away from them, using mana the turn before I want to cast my next bomb, instead of needing another mana the turn I actually cast it. In addition, GATs main thread for this deck are the Dryads, against which Blasts do nothing.
I also noted REB sitting on top of my library and stopping me from going of, allowing the tog player to swing with his Dryads the final time, hence the Pyroblasts.

edit: I forgot: Dülmen had a good share (about 8-10) of GAT this time. I played 2 of them (Benjamin Ribbeck and Björn Ortmann), and lost against Ribbeck because my deck crept out on me both times (I kep LoA and 2 nonblue Moxen and got Mana Screwed because I couldn't find a sinle blue source in my first 10 cards and second game I had a firm lead but drew nothing but mana for 6+ turns).

Quote I would think a sideboarded Innocent Blood would be the answer for Tog. With 4 Burning Wish in the deck you have a good chance of finding one and the combined mana cost of B. Wish + Blood is only 1RB. It is also Misdirection-proof, which is always nice in the GAT matchup. Grand Inquisitor is running his Balance sb, which serves much the same purpose, but i would go with Balance main and sb Blood to Wish for.

Well, it's the cheapest spotremoval you can Wish for with Burning Wish, it's MisD-prove and kills superman, so what more to want. I have yet to have problems casting it. Notice, though, that I do run Balance SB, too, I play Blood over Chainers Edict because of MisD.
And, as I said in the Your Mother thread, this deck doesn't want Balance MD, it would suck much too often for the very few times I'm not able to Wish for it, if I need it.

Quote 1. Blue is never a problem. 1 secondary color is obviously better than 2 secondary colors.

2. Instant speed matters. For purposes of EOT, end-of-counter wars, etc.

3. The arguement that a GAT player could Misdirect an STP to a Dryad really doesn't give any leverage to Innocent Blood since they could just choose to sacrifice the Dryad over the Tog.

All points correct, I still had not more problems than in regular Keeper casting my stuff, though (up to now).
On point 2., 8 out of 10 times the (good) Tog-player won't counter you eot StP but just calmly drop the next thread a turn later.
3. Definitly. I had to tell someone about that myself, as he had the same notion.

Quote Quote
games 2&3 against GAT, combo keeper has:
2-3 StP
3-4 ReB


Not in the lists we were discussing. The whole point I am trying to make (or be told otherwise, I really am open to this) is that I think those 1-2 extra STP's and REB's really help some problem matchups.

G.I. had the answer for that in his post as a minor sentence.

Quote And this is just our reactive cards; they have to stop all of our bombs, all while dealing with duress, loa

I cut the part with the Strips, as I don't play any (and I think he only has one left, too). I went into this some more earlier in this post and I don't think I'll have to repeat myself.

In my experience the higher amount of carddraw and the bigger single power of my wishable spells makes up for the losses in the hate-department for those aggro-control critters. I would be really happy to get one or two other removal-spells for Dryads and Dreads in my SB, though, as I could than claim those matchups to be favorable (instead of even).

edit2: Some typos.

[Koen]

Just an idea:

Cut the Power Artifact & Grim Monolith from main.
Cut Kaervek's Torch + something else from side.

Add Recoup sideboard, Gaea's Blessing Sideboard.
Add Fire/Ice Main, Mirari Main.

And now win with taking eternal turns with Time Walk, Recoup and Burning Wish and Mirari. And then Regrowth Fire/Ice all the time for 2 dmg each turn. Ok, takes longer to win, but you have a F/I and Mirari main instead of PA and Grim. Should be better, right? Mirari is another broken card by itself. And Fire/Ice another defensive card.

But well, I didn't test this, but I've always been toying around with the idea of making a Walk-Recoup-Mirari-Burning Wish deck. It seems to fit well in here.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I did already cut Power Artifact from the MD (see above). In the time that passed, I also cut the Golden WIsh and PA from the SB. Before Scourge becomes legal, I'll just have to play all my lands, after that I'll play Tendrils of Agony (wrong name in mtgnews spoiler) instead of Torch SB. I won't play cards like Mirari MD, just for the kill. The good thing about this deck is, that it plays as few cards for the kill MD as possible (0 right now *G*).
Recoup SB could be really nice, though, even without the combo. I'll test that.

[Fever]

First off, let me point out that the card's name is Tendrils of Anguish. Second, how do you expect to cast ten spells in one turn?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

First of: As I mentioned in my post, the name in the Mtgnews.com spoiler is wrong. The real name of that card is Tendrils Of Agony. Check for yourself in the wotc autocard window.
Your other question tells me you didn't goldfish this deck (let alone play it). During your combo-turn, when Sight and Fastbond are both on the table, you can play about as many spells as you want. My maximum count right now is 35 ( I started counting after I first saw the card in the spoiler).
Remember, my main kill-option right now is playing ALL the lands I have in my deck, Time Walk, and Torch my opponent out. And I was able to do this every time I reached the stage where I could go off (which made me take out GrimPower). This means I can consistently play all my deck. And it definitly has more than ten spells...

[Fever]

Well excuse the fuck out of me. I didnt realize i had to playtest with a deck in order to ask a question about it.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

You really are an easy one to get offended, huh? That wasn't meant as a personal attack or anything, if you took it for one/it sounded like one, sorry. I just pointed out what was an obvious observation for me to get into the explanation. If I had thought the question to be stupid or something, I wouldn't have answered it/said so. (I mean how unenjoyable would it be reading posts that just go: Question 1: It's like this; Question 2: It's like this, and so on. I mysself prefer reading a text when I get my questions answered...)

[jpmeyer]

Well if you look at the Tendrils, assuming you're doing 20, you only need to cast 8 spells that turn because you'll get 2 damage from the Tendrils itself and 2 in Storm from the Burning Wish.  Each Brainstorm is practically 3 cards right there with Future Sight out.  Now we only need 5 more spells.  That's not too tough at all to see without playtesting.

Burning Wish for that combo really does eliminate the need for Power Artifact.

[Andreas]

Not to forget you can cast Burning Wish to retrieve a previously cast Burning Wish.

[Fishhead]

Quote Second, how do you expect to cast ten spells in one turn?

I'll back MonGC up on this issue.  In optimal "go-off" configuration I have Fastbond-Future Sight-Zorb on the table.  What could possibly happen that I could not cast all my spells?  "Flip, its a land, I play it.  Flip, its a spell, I cast it.  Flip, its a FoW.  Hrm, I shuffle my deck with Polluted Delta. Flip..."

Quote I didnt realize i had to playtest with a deck in order to ask a question about it.

I'll back MonGC up on this issue too.  Your question shows that you didn't playtest the deck.  That's OK, but it's also OK for him to point out that fact when answering.  

Anyway, new thoughts in random order:

I played the deck last night, going 2-1-1.  I made a horrible mistake in match 2 which led to a draw and I ran into a MonoB deck in full buzzsaw mode in round 4.  Land-Rit-Duress-Sinkhole.  Wasteland. Land-Hymn.  Ouch Ouch Ouch.  Annoyingly I smashed this same MonoB 3 games before the tournament, but lose the 2 that count.  (I may post a mini-report if Zalfirin posts a winners report.  -edit- OK, he posted so here is the thread URPhid Report + The Shining Report )

Thought 1: After that bad experience, I really missed Misdirection, but overall I think the matchup against MonoB is good enough that you dont need it.  Resolving Future Sight seems to just win.  

Thought 2: Sideboarding is tough.  What do you take out?  In a normal Keeper the deck isn't packed quite so tight (or I have a better idea of what belongs in and what belongs out in a given matchup).  Can someone who has played the deck more give some thoughts about this?

Thought 3: I never missed Grim/PA.  I played with ManaVault instead and it was OK.  I always have a soft spot for this sort of crazy accelleration in Keeper; I like having a fast Will or FoF.  Back to the PA though, once you get Future Sight on the board, you just go nuts.  I played a fun game against someone where it was my LoA + Future Sight vs. his LoA + Deserted Temple (?, it untaps a land).  So, he's drawing 3 a turn, but, with Future Sight drawing for me I outraced him to the point where he conceded just two turns later.  That's only Future Sight, no Fastbond.

Thought 4: Should this deck have 3 Future Sights?  (Should more decks have 3 Future Sights?  In my first game of the day both FS's and 3 of my Burning Wishes were in the final 15 cards.  (It was kinda funny because people had gathered around my game trying to figure out what I am playing.  "He's got Fastbond, it's like a Tog." "No, look at all the colors and the Mana Drains, its a Keeper."  "I see an Academy and a Burning Wish.  I think its some sort of Spiral-Academy."  Lol.)

Thought 5: There are 18 lands and 8 artifacts for a total of 26.  This is a bit light for a Keeper.  I had to mull more than I like during the night, often because I had a one land hand.  With GroTog I feel you have to keep a Land+Brainstorm hand, but with a Keeper style I feel you have to throw it back.  I'd really like to add two lands, hopefully Islands or Wastelands.  I mean, my key spell costs UUU2 and I can't always fetch a Lotus to play it.

[Zherbus]

Quote Thought 5: There are 18 lands and 8 artifacts for a total of 26.  This is a bit light for a Keeper.  I had to mull more than I like during the night, often because I had a one land hand.  With GroTog I feel you have to keep a Land+Brainstorm hand, but with a Keeper style I feel you have to throw it back.  I'd really like to add two lands, hopefully Islands or Wastelands.  I mean, my key spell costs UUU2 and I can't always fetch a Lotus to play it.

In Paragon Keeper it is a similiar ratio, because of the Brainstorms. Though, we only have 6 brands of artifact mana, and a few more real lands. I think that says that quite possibly that could make for a less stable early game, while going off with Future Sight often bears more fruit.

Quote Thought 4: Should this deck have 3 Future Sights?  (Should more decks have 3 Future Sights?  In my first game of the day both FS's and 3 of my Burning Wishes were in the final 15 cards.  (It was kinda funny because people had gathered around my game trying to figure out what I am playing.  "He's got Fastbond, it's like a Tog." "No, look at all the colors and the Mana Drains, its a Keeper."  "I see an Academy and a Burning Wish.  I think its some sort of Spiral-Academy."  Lol.)

Maybe quite so many Future Sights, but possibly something in the board to Burning Wish for to let you get a Future Sight. One idea that I suggested to Womprax (I have no idea if it was tested) was Sterling Grove to not only to find a Future Sight, but to protect it from a timely REB or a Disenchant.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Thought 1: After that bad experience, I really missed Misdirection, but overall I think the matchup against MonoB is good enough that you dont need it.  Resolving Future Sight seems to just win.

It does. I'm about 7:3  against monoB in testgames and have beaten BlackBazaar in the tourney 2:0. That does pack a lot less disruption, though. (But he opened with Ritual-Specter every game)

Quote Thought 2: Sideboarding is tough.  What do you take out?  In a normal Keeper the deck isn't packed quite so tight (or I have a better idea of what belongs in and what belongs out in a given matchup).  Can someone who has played the deck more give some thoughts about this?

I think the deck is a little more tight than Keeper, but the main problem is the deck is new. I'm not exactly sure how to SB the deck ideal myself in every matchup. I keep the SBing to a minimum, though, as I keep all the Wishes in. Here is my most recent decklist and how I usually SB against some more common/powerful decks:

The Shining (24.5.03)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Gush
2 Future Sight

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampirirc Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Burning Wish

1 Lim-Dul's Vault (looking for single CC replacement, couldn't find one up to now)

1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth

1 Zuran Orb

1 Mana Vault/Grim Monolith (testing)
7 SoLoMox
1 LoA
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City of Brass
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea (I'll test if cutting one for a basic Island will work sooner or later)

SB:

1 Kaerveks Torch (Tendrils of Agony)
1 Call of the Herd
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate (Wash Out if I can get a Basic Island in and Blood Moon becomes played even more)
1 Innocent Blood
1 C.o.P.: Red (retesting Sterling Grove in this spot after Scourge is legal)
3 Duress (testing 1 Cabal Therapy and 2 Duress instead atm to rip multiple hate-cards after boarding)
2 Pyroblast
1 Deep Analysis

Keeper/Control:
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Duress

- Mystical/ Lim-Duls Vault
- Regrowth
- 2 StP

GAT, Grow:
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Duress

- Mystical
- Regrowth
- Lim-Duls Vault
- Merchant Scroll

Sui:
No SB. Might cut Regrowth/ Lim-Duls Vault for Balance.

Sligh:
+ CoP: Red
+ Balance (against Goblin-Sligh only)

- Regrowth
(- 1 Gush)

TnT:
None.

Ducktape:
Not sure. Probably 2 Duress for Regrowth and something else.

Hope this helps. As said, I'm still not sure if this is optimal.

Quote Thought 4: Should this deck have 3 Future Sights?  (Should more decks have 3 Future Sights?  In my first game of the day both FS's and 3 of my Burning Wishes were in the final 15 cards.

Definitly not. Future Sight is a stop during your combo-turn. If I wanted another Sight, I'd put Enlightened back into the deck (what might well happen if I can find room).  

Quote Thought 5: There are 18 lands and 8 artifacts for a total of 26.  This is a bit light for a Keeper.  I had to mull more than I like during the night, often because I had a one land hand.  With GroTog I feel you have to keep a Land+Brainstorm hand, but with a Keeper style I feel you have to throw it back.  I'd really like to add two lands, hopefully Islands or Wastelands.  I mean, my key spell costs UUU2 and I can't always fetch a Lotus to play it.

If you look at it, (Paragon)Keeper has 27 sources usually, but three of them are Wastelands. Two can be seen as my Mana Vault and Mox E, the other one colorless source, is IMO compensated by the fact that Wastelands are often sacced the turn they're played.
I usually keep 1 Land, Mox, Brainstorm hands, btw. It's not great, but it usually works out. Hands with only a land and a BS shouldn't happen often, and even the aforementioned Mox, Land ones are not a common sight for me. I get screwed about as often as I get flooded in testing, so I feel the manabase to be ok (no, I don't get flooded/screwed often, this is not what I mean). And oh, I tutor for Lotus quite often (that's why I might put Enlightened back in...).

Quote Maybe quite so many Future Sights, but possibly something in the board to Burning Wish for to let you get a Future Sight. One idea that I suggested to Womprax (I have no idea if it was tested) was Sterling Grove to not only to find a Future Sight, but to protect it from a timely REB or a Disenchant.

I tested it and didn't really like it, as I didn't regularly need to protect my Sight after it did finally resolve. It might come back, though, as more people are boarding enchantment/artifact hate every day. Most probably after Scourge becomes legal, as the Wishable lifegain of Tendrils will hopefully allow me to cut the CoP.
But Grove sadly is not wishable. It's exactly like you said, I need some Wish-target that can get a Sight. Diabolic Tutor is to expensive, though, while Rhystic just sucks. Any ideas?

Quote There were just over 20 people tonite and I played Mon, Goblin Chiefs "The Shining" with a couple changes like MD TimeTwister and Lim Duls Vault.

As you can see I switched to Lim-Dul's Vault myself. I'm interested in your changes, though. Did you keep Enlightened, and, if yes, what did you drop for Twister and Lim-Dul's Vault? And how good was Twister?

[Fishhead]

Quote

Quote Thought 4: Should this deck have 3 Future Sights?  (Should more decks have 3 Future Sights?  In my first game of the day both FS's and 3 of my Burning Wishes were in the final 15 cards.

Definitly not. Future Sight is a stop during your combo-turn. If I wanted another Sight, I'd put Enlightened back into the deck (what might well happen if I can find room).  

I find that its not a stop; when I am comboing then I can just cast a second Sight pretty easily.  I know the feeling though; the second Sight showed up a bunch of times during the night and I mostly chose to shuffle it away.  I think you are right about ET, especially considering the Lotus issue.

Quote I get screwed about as often as I get flooded in testing, so I feel the manabase to be ok (no, I don't get flooded/screwed often, this is not what I mean).

I mulled a lot for mana reasons that night.  Maybe the mana-gods weren't with me and I just jumped to conclusions that it was the 18 land.  I'd still feel happier with 19 land + 8 artifacts.  Part of the problem is that everything is vulnerable to Wasteland except the Fetchies.  I can't get an early Island to defend against Wasteland.  

Quote As you can see I switched to Lim-Dul's Vault myself. I'm interested in your changes, though. Did you keep Enlightened, and, if yes, what did you drop for Twister and Lim-Dul's Vault? And how good was Twister?

I pushed Regrowth into the SB and dropped the Enlightened Tutor to add L-D Vault and TimeTwister.  

TimeTwister is interesting, but not great.  I was hoping it would allow me to abuse my deck over and over, but it doesn't have much synergy with Burning Wish, or the fact that you often use Y-Will to take a humongous winning turn, or the fact that its often better to just say "Go" if you stall halfway through the combo since your hand is full of FoW and Mana Drain.  

If I had a Crypt MD I could easily destroy my opponent with the Twister-Crypt combo once I get going.  That was also something I had in mind, I was wondering if a second type of win condition would be good.

[Zharradan]

Quote (Mon, Goblin Chief @ May 24 2003,21:57)But Grove sadly is not wishable. It's exactly like you said, I need some Wish-target that can get a Sight. Diabolic Tutor is to expensive, though, while Rhystic just sucks. Any ideas?

Crazy idea time:
Replace one Burning Wish with a Death Wish (or simply add a Death Wish (after finding room to cut a card, heh)), and have a Sight in your SB.

You could try Wish for Gamble, if you are brave. It has more chance of working than Rhystic, at least.

[Grand Inquisitor]

after my recent tournament results i would like to pursuade you to use trade routes in this deck:
1) alternate win condition with tolarian academy
2) abusive and fixes mana with fastbond
3) allows you to cycle cards with future sight
4) pitches to FoW
5) allows you to evade strips
6) gets loa active sooner
7) gets you through mana flood
8) another permanent for stax matchups

regarding other posts:

Quote I really missed Misdirection, but overall I think the matchup against MonoB is good enough that you dont need it

you're right that mono-b has no way of dealing with future sight and that the match up is generally good.  on top of this, misdirection makes the matchup only marginally better.  since you can't get it with cunning wish, the chances of you drawing into it when you really need it are slim.  further, mono-b typically doesn't run sinkhole anymore, and it always tries to duress first before hymning.  i've run CoP black in some tourney's and find it to be the best solution.

Quote Sideboarding is tough

i completely agree, and as mons said, a lot of it is because this is a relatively new deck, and further that this is a deck that has very interactive strategy between maindeck and sideboard.  perhaps more so than any other current deck.  depending on which wish targets you bring in games 2 & 3, and for my build, which combo elements i leave in, you are required to make certain play choices.

the sideboard can vary quite widely depending on what you expect to see.  even though i see a lot of bloodmoon, i don't think wash out is the answer.  i'm going to be testing hull breach over the next few weeks.  i also think regrowth should be relegated to the sideboard as the deck doesn't want most of its key cards twice, and green can be hard to find (this is why i never board in vindicate).  also, for the few matchups you gave, you sided out regrowth quite often.  as for 3x duress, i don't like having it as a time-dependent anti-control option.  reb can be completely reactive and isn't thwarted by a simple brainstorm.  mons, i'd like to hear more about some of your sb choices (pyroclasm?).  also, what do you think of my latest build (see above link)?

as for the mana base, the link above will show you mine which i've been very happy with.  i would like to fit in an island for bloodmoon matchups, but i just don't see it happening unless i drop a fetchland.  i think for this deck, 27 is a bit high, but manageable with trade routes.

i think i'll stick with fireball fueled by either grim/pa or trade routes/academy unless tendrils really impresses me.  often times in control matchups i won't even have 10 cards, never mind 10 spells left in my library when i'm about to go off.  l like having back up plans, thats why i maintain the grim/pa combo even though its not as efficient as tap, sac, y.will, tap or the tendrils plan.  i still want to play combo control, so this means keeping some versatility.

as far as having 3 sights, i think its overkill.  you shouldn't have trouble finding it or keeping it on the board against aggro, and against control you can't afford to have large cumbersome spells in your hand every game.  two makes it so i see it generally when i want to.  it also means i can pitch one and still have a bomb left to top deck into.  the death wish idea is a little nutty.  i haven't tested, so i won't knock it, but it looks suspicious.

[Amuraivel]

Well, I believe I am one of the converted.


Futuresight is better than Stroke or Braingeyser.  When it hits the board it is good, but with Fastbond, the thing rules.

I have replaced my Grimm/Power combo with this, because Fastbond is decent by itself, and Futuresight is good.

I cut Gaea's Blessing and added YawgWill (I now it has taken a long time), but Yawgwill and Fastbond is simply amazing, and down-right broken with Fetchlands, not to mention Zorb.

--Amuraivel

[Kaervek]

What will you do now that Gush is restricted? It seems to me the deck can go just fine with a single copy, but still: what do you replace it with?

[Amuraivel]

Quote 3 Duress (testing 1 Cabal Therapy and 2 Duress instead atm to rip multiple hate-cards after boarding)
2 Pyroblast
1 Deep Analysis

Keeper/Control:
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Duress

- Mystical/ Lim-Duls Vault
- Regrowth
- 2 StP

GAT, Grow:
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Duress

- Mystical
- Regrowth
- Lim-Duls Vault
- Merchant Scroll

Sui:
No SB. Might cut Regrowth/ Lim-Duls Vault for Balance.

Sligh:
+ CoP: Red
+ Balance (against Goblin-Sligh only)

- Regrowth
(- 1 Gush)

TnT:
None.

Ducktape:
Not sure. Probably 2 Duress for Regrowth and something else.

@Mon, Goblin Chief:

Why do you board 3 Duresses when you only use two at the most after SBing?  Seems like a small point, but I don't get it.

--Amuraivel

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote What will you do now that Gush is restricted? It seems to me the deck can go just fine with a single copy, but still: what do you replace it with?

from mons:

Quote Trade Routes is great, wonderfull idea (I removed it after moving from the CunningWish build I originally posted and never thought of testing it again).

i posted some reasons above, but it seems like the natural substitute in his build.

regarding the duress's in the sb, i've never liked them.  cabal therapy in a deck with no creatures just seems sub-optimal.

i do like the direction this deck is moving in, if we only didn't have to deal with bloodmoon...

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Why do you board 3 Duresses when you only use two at the most after SBing?  Seems like a small point, but I don't get it.

I want my Wishes to be able to get me combo-protection even after SBing. The one Duress stays SBed because I keep all 4 Wishes in the deck and that way Burning Wish is still disruption.

Quote after my recent tournament results i would like to pursuade you to use trade routes in this deck

GI quoted my answer from his tournament report already, I'm persuaded. Trade Routes works great in the deck and I'll definitly keep it in. Being able to trade lands for cards is great in this deck and Trade Routes helps the Wasteland-issue Fishhead mentioned. Atm I have moved Regrowth to the SB for it, and it will supposedly stay there. You don't need it often enough, really.

Quote What will you do now that Gush is restricted? It seems to me the deck can go just fine with a single copy, but still: what do you replace it with?

As I already have Trade Routes in my deck now, and I don't really want Regrowth back MD, I'll have to replace Gush with something else. Right now I think I'll put Enlightened Tutor back in, especially because it will now be dead very seldomly thanks to Trade Routes, which makes it useful when mana flooded.

Quote regarding the duress's in the sb, i've never liked them.  cabal therapy in a deck with no creatures just seems sub-optimal.

Boarding Duress over REB/Pyroblast is a lot better against straight control, IMO, as it can handle REB, Enchantment removal, Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Win and several other spells on it's own. In addition it lets me know if I have a window of opportunity, when my opponent has no counters despite a full hand, allowig me to drop Sight when I couldn't risk it being drained otherwise. For me Duress is better than blast in this deck.
For Therapy, as mentioned before I usually leave one Duress in the SB when boarding as a Wish target. ATM I'm testing if using Therapy instead will help me remove multiple threads after casting a Duress first. I haven't come to any conclusive data yet, as Therapy was countered every time I cast it anyways.

Quote mons, i'd like to hear more about some of your sb choices (pyroclasm?)

Pyroclasm is there because quite often I do have more lands and cards when I'm getting swarmed, making balance suboptimal. In addition it doesn't need me to have W and R available to stop an onslaught of Weenies which is quite nice. It's one of the first things I'll remove if I really really need room.
Primitive Justice: MVP against AnkhSligh, because it's cheaper and has less color-requirements than Vindicate. In addition it can nail multiple Ankhs, which is great.
As CotH (which I recently cut for the Regrowth anyway) was explained earlier, I think most of my SB-choices should be clear now. If not, let me know.

Quote i do like the direction this deck is moving in, if we only didn't have to deal with bloodmoon...

Yeah, screw that damn thing! Blood Moon =
And I too like the way this develops.

[Thug]

Hi,

This thread is getting a little old, but I would like to bring it back, since if done quite some testing lately and have some questions and suggestions.

First of all I will comment on Mon's latest posted list:

Quote The Shining (24.5.03)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Gush
2 Future Sight

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampirirc Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Burning Wish

1 Lim-Dul's Vault (looking for single CC replacement, couldn't find one up to now)

1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth

1 Zuran Orb

1 Mana Vault/Grim Monolith (testing)
7 SoLoMox
1 LoA
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City of Brass
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea (I'll test if cutting one for a basic Island will work sooner or later)

SB:

1 Kaerveks Torch (Tendrils of Agony)
1 Call of the Herd
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate (Wash Out if I can get a Basic Island in and Blood Moon becomes played even more)
1 Innocent Blood
1 C.o.P.: Red (retesting Sterling Grove in this spot after Scourge is legal)
3 Duress (testing 1 Cabal Therapy and 2 Duress instead atm to rip multiple hate-cards after boarding)
2 Pyroblast
1 Deep Analysis

You already mentioned you replaced a gush with a trade routes and maybe added something else.

Trade Routes: It's a nice card but hasn't been pulling it's wight for me. In my testing this you could even call this card a win-more card since it allows you to easy combo out with Fastbond + Trade Routes + Academy + Fireball. The only matchup it really is useful is Suicide/Void. Therefore I decided to cut this

Lim-Dul's Vault: This card is so flexible it isn't funny but I didn't really like it, it can't be easily be casted early on and is card-disadvantegous. It might be like another Vampiric Tutor, but would you like 2 Vampiric's in this deck? I wouldn't. I replaced this card with a single Impulse, it might seem a little random but it can easily be casted off a Mox and a Land, does also pitch to FoW and replaces itself. I'm very content about this card.

Regrowth: I see it has been both in your Sideboard and Maindeck and keeps switching all the time. I decided to put it in the sideboard, because it was useless too often, and also I removed the second Tropical Island, so this also explains the Regrowth in the Sideboard.

Mana Vault/Grim: I didnt really understand the use of this, unless your wishing for an early twist I don't see much use in one of these. So, after some testing, I replaced it with a Land for a more stable mana-base.

I also changed the mana-base some, and it is, in my opinion, pretty solid now. This is my current test version:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Gush
2 Future Sight
1 Impulse

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampirirc Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Duress

2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Burning Wish
1 Fastbond

1 Zuran Orb

7 SoLoMox
1 LoA
1 Tolarian Academy
3 City of Brass
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island


On to the sidebaord:

Quote 1 Kaerveks Torch (Tendrils of Agony)
1 Call of the Herd
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate (Wash Out if I can get a Basic Island in and Blood Moon becomes played even more)
1 Innocent Blood
1 C.o.P.: Red (retesting Sterling Grove in this spot after Scourge is legal)
3 Duress (testing 1 Cabal Therapy and 2 Duress instead atm to rip multiple hate-cards after boarding)
2 Pyroblast
1 Deep Analysis

Torch: A little questions, why Torch over any of the other XR spells. I would think, and found in testing, that there are better options, like Fireball and Disintegrate. When your toasting your opponent you should have enough counterbackup anyway. I did not test Tendrils yet, but it seems less optimal to me, It might be easier to kill with, but it seems a lot less usefull in the early game.

Call of the Heard: It's cute, but have you ever been using this? I might be useful as an alternate win condition but it seems a little too far sought to me. The sidebaord is very tight as it is.

Pyroclasm: Its amasing against sligh and can be decent against black, I'm still playing with it too, but I could see it get replaced by somthing else.

Primitive Justice: Wow, I never saw this card before, but I have to say, nice one. Its preatty flexible and does its job, should defenitly stay.

Vindicate: Has been amazing for me, it is the only answer to enchantments and lands (LoA anyone?)

C.O.P. Red: Have you really been needing this?, I think Zuran Orb is the best answer to sligh, and should be enough.

As you could see I moved 2 Duresses to the maindeck and that created some more room in the sideboard, this is my current sideboard:

1 Fireball
1 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate
1 Innocent Blood
2 Pyroblast/REB
1 Deep Analysis
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 BEB/Washout
1 Regrowth

After searching for a better answer than Wash Out for Blood Moon. I came to BEB, and yes I know its and instant  
The idea behind this is to sideboard BEB in and sideboard out Merchant. This makes you able to Wish for Merchant which finds you BEB to deal with Blood Moon permanently. I wonder what you think about this?

Overall I have to say the deck seems really good, and it sure is a blast to play. Congrats,

Koen

EDIT: I forgot the Regrowth in the sideboard

[Grand Inquisitor]

This deck is getting more and more streamlined, and reducing its number of win conditions.

At the last tourney I played in, I was still running grim/PA.  I know mon's and others have dropped it, but I always want to have multiple paths to victory.  With the build I was using I had 3 options:
grim/PA
tolarian/trade routes
zuran orb/fastbond/y.will

that makes 7 cards that they have to gun for if they want to stop the combo, all of which are synergistic with other components of the deck.

perhaps this is overkill, but which is most effective given the current metagame?  i think i will drop grim/PA, but i like having trade routes in to at least make it a double threat.  in the event of dropping grim monolith, do you guys think the artifact count (7) is high enough for tolarian?  if i just rely on y.will, fastbond, zuran orb, i worry about not getting enough land into play against aggro.

lim dul's vault is staying in.  maybe you like impulse, but if i'm ready to go off and i need 2 quality spells instead of 1, lim dul is my man.  Its synergy with future sight is icing on the cake, but if i'm holding y.will, and i want a counterspell, and a must counter, lim dul will get it for me (albeit in 2 turns), impulse will not.

as far as the sideboard is concerned, i'm still running fireball, as I think Tendrils of Agony is too conditional.  I like a card that i can wish for to win or to suck up drain mana (braingeyser), but I think I like regrowth more.

Quote 1 Fireball
1 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate
1 Innocent Blood
2 Pyroblast/REB
1 Deep Analysis
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 BEB/Washout
1 open slot

this is pretty close to what i'd run (obviously this is highly dependent on metagame)

as far as bloodmoon is concerned, i am much more worried about Urphid than TnT or others.  I don't think a reactive approach to this will work, which is why I'm sticking with aura fracture (which is also amazing against a large number of other decks).

I was running a duress, but no mind twist due to the prevalence of misdireaction.  however, with GAT gone and sligh on the rise, I'm going to try to fit it in.

I will always prefer chainer's edict to innocent blood.  it costs 1 more, but you get the potential to use 7 more times.  Especially now that Tog looks to be big, and keeper is making a comeback, it should be a valueable sb slot.

I haven't tried primitive justice (primarily out of ignorance), but its definitely going in.

For July 1, I would run this:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Gush
2 Future Sight
1 trade routes

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampirirc Tutor

2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Burning Wish

1 Lim-Dul's Vault

1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth

1 Zuran Orb

7 SoLoMox
1 LoA
1 Tolarian Academy
1 strip mine
2 City of Brass
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB:

1 fireball
1 duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate
1 chainer's edict
1 yawgmoth's will
1 regrowth
3 Pyroblast
1 aura fracture
1 C.o.P.: Red

[Thug]

Quote in the event of dropping grim monolith, do you guys think the artifact count (7) is high enough for tolarian?  if i just rely on y.will, fastbond, zuran orb, i worry about not getting enough land into play against aggro.

I think your artifact count is 8 just like mine.

Quote 1 Zuran Orb
7 SoLoMox

This should be enough for Academy, and under the circumstances you would find yourself without any artifact you could always shuffle it with Brainstorm. The Academy is needed for the kill (well, in my version).

Quote lim dul's vault is staying in.  maybe you like impulse, but if i'm ready to go off and i need 2 quality spells instead of 1, lim dul is my man.  Its synergy with future sight is icing on the cake, but if i'm holding y.will, and i want a counterspell, and a must counter, lim dul will get it for me (albeit in 2 turns), impulse will not.

I'm wondering if you ever tried an Impulse, it sure has it advantages over Vault, off course it also has disadvanteges. Some of the point you make seem a little odd. Sure the Vault has wonderful energy with a Sight out, but with a Sight out your winning... And it sure might get you two cards (just depends on the amount of life your willing/are able to pay) but as you said too, it will take you 2 turns just to draw them. Impluse might not always get the exact card you were hoping for, but it always gets something useful. Off course the also the difference in mana-cost, Impulse can be cast earlier and easier.

Quote as far as the sideboard is concerned, i'm still running fireball, as I think Tendrils of Agony is too conditional.

Agreed.

Quote as far as bloodmoon is concerned, i am much more worried about Urphid than TnT or others.  I don't think a reactive approach to this will work, which is why I'm sticking with aura fracture (which is also amazing against a large number of other decks).

As you might have seen I have a pro-active answer as well, Im running 2 seal of cleansings in the sidebaord. But a Blood Moon can hit before you got your answer ready, so its nice to have a reactive answer as well. Overall with Duresses, Seals, the normal Countermagic, and the option to deal with if after it hit I'm feeling pretty confident in dealing with Blood Moon.

Quote I was running a duress, but no mind twist due to the prevalence of misdireaction.  however, with GAT gone and sligh on the rise, I'm going to try to fit it in.

The Mind Twist has been pretty good, so if you can find room, I would sure add it

One last question, why did you decide to put the Will in the Sideboard? I have tried it as well, but I felt better in the maindeck. The only real advantage of running it in the sideboard would be that you wouldn't have to run Regrowth in the Board anymore... please explain

Koen

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote I think your artifact count is 8 just like mine.

Quote  
1 Zuran Orb
7 SoLoMox

My black lotus usually doesn't stay on the table very long, but i should have mentioned that in my previous post.

Regarding impulse vs. lim-dul:

When I look at impulse, I think of a search tool fitted for a redundant deck.  The Shining (aka Your Mother   ) is anything but redundant.  Many of the cards have a specific type of synergy with other parts of the deck, and while impulse may find a tutor that will fit the trick, lim dul will find exactly what i'm looking for most of the time.

Another issue is play-style.  When I play this deck, even against control, its a slow building momentum until I can break the game wide open.  If I'm holding burning wish, and my opponent has 2 cards in hand, I'd rather have lim-dul than impulse.  That way I can set up a counter and another draw spell while I wish for y.will.  Against aggro strategies, it can set up a future sight while i balance in the meantime.

Admittedly, I have not yet tested impulse, but my intuition is that I wouldn't like it.  I'll let you know when I have some results.

Quote The Mind Twist has been pretty good

I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Quote why did you decide to put the Will in the Sideboard

With burning wish I saw the opportunity to take many of the situational bombs that traditional keeper runs (balance, regrowth, y.will, braingeyser) and be able to tutor for them reliably, but not have to draw them at inopportune times.  Often I either don't have the mana, or the graveyard bulk to abuse y.will (the other bombs have similar situational constraints).

People argue that the 1R used to wish for the will makes it less effective.  However, I find that the extra 1R cost is easily made up by the tempo gain of drawing (and casting right away) more playable cards.  I'm especially interested to hear what you think of this last argument, as I feel the opportunity cost of holding bombs is often underestimated.

[gronx]

I am very glad this thread has been resurrected.  

I would like to address the tendrils issue, I can understand how this card can be considered conditional especially when compared to fireball or even torch and taking mana drain into consideration as well as the fact that geyser and stroke are not run anywhere.  But, seeing as how the grim/PA combo has been cut; a decision that I totally agree with, PA was the ultimate stopper unless you had the grim already in play and it just sucked to have it in your opening hand, there are really only two combos:

1) You have the option of playing every land in the deck and going for a big torch/Will
2) Getting the trade routes/fastbond combo on the board and going nuts with academy

While both of these combos are adequate, they really are not optimal.  The first (playing every land in the deck) has the inherent problem of running into too many stoppers (counters, the extra FS, and even swords against a creatureless deck) and you can not always rely on having a reshuffle effect in hand or a fetch in play.  On a side note when going with this strategy you must have the Will in the board so you can get it whenever you need it; I have been running this combo for a little over a month now and have never even considered putting Will in the main deck.  Will is a reshuffle effect and you are playing four of them with the wishes.

The second combo is the one that I loathe, Academy is extremely broken in this deck and I’m sure I don't need to tell anyone how broken fastbond is, but trade routes is one of the most conditional cards I’ve tested (next to PA.)  If you have a lot of land on the board you ARE going to win so don’t say that you can draw extra cards with it, and yes you can pitch it to force, but that is not a reason to run a card its just a bonus.  LOA is really the only thing I can think of that this is really good with.  Trade routes can get you back up to 7 in a flash and can even be used to replay a LOA to draw extra cards.  It does have its reasons I can understand that, and looks absolutely amazing on paper, but in practice its really not all that its cracked up to be.  For this reason I don't run trade routes and think that this combo will eventually fade just as the grim/PA did.

This brings me back to the original point of tendrils.  You only need to play 8 spells in order to make tendrils a win condition, the wish and the tendrils itself count.  It seems like the most streamlined win condition that this deck has.  Check out the bonuses it has: it cannot be countered, it cannot be misdirected, it cannot be prevented and best of all you don't need to go through your entire library to win or play with conditional cards in the main deck.  Last time I checked having conditional cards in the sideboard is exactly what it was intended for.  And if you really need a mana sink in the board mind twist will do the trick very nicely.