Breaking Future Sight

[Grand Inquisitor]

tendrils is already on my long list of options to try.  however, versus control, it almost necessitates a resolved y.will to be a win condition.  sometimes with future sight you can cast 8 spells in a turn, but what really gets your engine going is y.will.  in long, drawn out control matchups, sometimes i need every spell in the deck to take out my opponent.

tendrils isn't conditional because i won't be able to cast 8 spells.  its conditional, because i may not have 8 (pro-active) spells to cast.  i can easily see wanting to hold back moxen in order to up my spell count when i'm ready to go off.  like i said, i'm skeptical, but i'll try it.

[Zherbus]

Moved. Obviously in the wrong forum.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote People argue that the 1R used to wish for the will makes it less effective.  However, I find that the extra 1R cost is easily made up by the tempo gain of drawing (and casting right away) more playable cards.  I'm especially interested to hear what you think of this last argument, as I feel the opportunity cost of holding bombs is often underestimated.

I'm sorry if this is considered double posting, but once this got moved to EVF, this comment was stuck on the third page, and I'm guessing most people didn't see it.

This is one of the most advantageous parts about burning wish in a keeper-esque deck:

Counterspells, draw and tutors are never really dead cards.  While YM does run 2 stp, almost every other card can be played pro-actively and optimally.  Cards like balance and yawgwill can sit in your hand while you try to set up the best situation to use them.  While you're holding these cards, you're sacrificing valuable tempo that could be used elsewhere.

You can argue that burning wish can sit in your hand, but it can also be used to get a draw spell, duress, or removal instead.  This is not a reason why burning wish is better than cunning wish, but I think burning wish allows you to run a more streamlined maindeck, and better use your mana each turn.

Its difficult for people who haven't play-tested (not that I expect you to), but YM plays like pro-active keeper: much more geared towards your main phases.  Since Keeper only runs 8-9 counters (and people are moving towards duress), you often don't need to keep mana untapped.

This does allow opponents to know they can resolve spells, and it cuts down on your ability to bluff, but so far the deck still performs well against major archetypes and good players.

Since my experience with keeper is dwarfed by others on this site, I'm interested what people think about this approach to the maindeck & a more aggressive stance.

[Thug]

I totally agree with your last statement, but I still like the Will in the maindeck. In this deck you shouldnt be scared to cast your Will early on, since you have wishes to bring it back. I often use it early on just for a land a cantrip and/or something like a duress.
What I'm trying to say is that Will does not has to sit in your hand for turns. I think the real question about the Will is whether you like to tutor for it through Wishes or with the more "normal tutors" (Mystical, Vampiric, Demonic)

Burning wishes are really good, there's just one downside... your sideboard becoms tight as  

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote I totally agree with your last statement

Quote my experience with keeper is dwarfed by others on this site

 
tell me how you really feel...


Regarding the Y.Will maindeck, again, I think its situational enough so that it serves better from the sideboard.  Yes, you can use it early just for a land drop, brainstorm and a duress, but that means you're not using resources to deal with threats, or vs. control you might be wishing for regrowth if they counter it.

As far as using the mystical/vampiric/demonic, i'd rather save those to get double use out of my timewalk/ancestral recall/fact or fiction in conjunction with the will.

[Thug]

Quote  tell me how you really feel...

Im sorry, I might have confused you

Quote I totally agree with your last statement

Quote People argue that the 1R used to wish for the will makes it less effective.  However, I find that the extra 1R cost is easily made up by the tempo gain of drawing (and casting right away) more playable cards.  I'm especially interested to hear what you think of this last argument, as I feel the opportunity cost of holding bombs is often underestimated.

Thats the statement I ment.

-------------

Quote I'm interested what people think about this approach to the maindeck & a more aggressive stance.

In my opinion this deck tries to stay alive till it can just combo the opponent out, there's no need for totall control, not at all. I wouldn't really call it a aggressive stance, it's just very straight forward.

And this deck is very mainphase based, thats what makes me wonder if another duress could/should be played over a Mana Drain, this might hurt people's Keeper hart, but it does fit the style of this deck better. I think I will try moving to 3 Duress and 3 Mana Drain, since I was already running 2 Duresses.

I'm questioning another card, called Deep Analysis. Although it does have nice energy with the wished by removing itself from the game, its hasn't convinced that it deserves it's place.

The problem is there aren't much replacements for it, I'm thinking of these two cards now, Braingeyser and Concentrate (maybe Ancestral Memories?). I will see what card of these four I would like most if wishing for a carddrawer, testing should show it.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Hi all, as I didn't have much time lately to post thought out answers and was testing a different deck for Dülmen (SuperGro Variant with Accu-Knowledge as additional carddraw), I'll have to go back quite some posts. I hope this disturbs nobody.

Quote Trade Routes: It's a nice card but hasn't been pulling it's wight for me. In my testing this you could even call this card a win-more card since it allows you to easy combo out with Fastbond + Trade Routes + Academy + Fireball. The only matchup it really is useful is Suicide/Void. Therefore I decided to cut this

Quote The second combo is the one that I loathe, Academy is extremely broken in this deck and I’m sure I don't need to tell anyone how broken fastbond is, but trade routes is one of the most conditional cards I’ve tested (next to PA.)  If you have a lot of land on the board you ARE going to win so don’t say that you can draw extra cards with it, and yes you can pitch it to force, but that is not a reason to run a card its just a bonus.  LOA is really the only thing I can think of that this is really good with.  Trade routes can get you back up to 7 in a flash and can even be used to replay a LOA to draw extra cards.  It does have its reasons I can understand that, and looks absolutely amazing on paper, but in practice its really not all that its cracked up to be.  For this reason I don't run trade routes and think that this combo will eventually fade just as the grim/PA did.

Trade Routes gave me some wins in testing and tournament play I wouldn't have had a chance to get without it, as it guided me through manafloods quite nicely. It is pretty situational, though. I'll think about removing it, when I have tested more with Tendrils instead of Torch. For now it will stay in.

Quote Lim-Dul's Vault: This card is so flexible it isn't funny but I didn't really like it, it can't be easily be casted early on and is card-disadvantegous. It might be like another Vampiric Tutor, but would you like 2 Vampiric's in this deck? I wouldn't. I replaced this card with a single Impulse, it might seem a little random but it can easily be casted off a Mox and a Land, does also pitch to FoW and replaces itself. I'm very content about this card.

Quote lim dul's vault is staying in.  maybe you like impulse, but if i'm ready to go off and i need 2 quality spells instead of 1, lim dul is my man.  Its synergy with future sight is icing on the cake, but if i'm holding y.will, and i want a counterspell, and a must counter, lim dul will get it for me (albeit in 2 turns), impulse will not.

Quote I'm wondering if you ever tried an Impulse, it sure has it advantages over Vault, off course it also has disadvanteges. Some of the point you make seem a little odd. Sure the Vault has wonderful energy with a Sight out, but with a Sight out your winning... And it sure might get you two cards (just depends on the amount of life your willing/are able to pay) but as you said too, it will take you 2 turns just to draw them. Impluse might not always get the exact card you were hoping for, but it always gets something useful. Off course the also the difference in mana-cost, Impulse can be cast earlier and easier.

I did not try Impulse yet, but as much as I liked the idea of L-D's Vault, when I really played with it, I felt it didn't do much. It's CC of 2 was clunky, even though it is an Instant. In addition I got the feeling I was tutoring up 3 dead cards with 2 good ones every time I used it. A fellow German player, Kim Kluck, who was testing Shining pretty much since the first tuned version existed, has had similar experiences with it.
I decided to cut Lim-Dul's Vault after those experiences. As much as I'd like playing 2 Vamps in this deck (how couldn't you, Thug?), L-D's plays different from that.
I won't play Impulse in Shining, though, for the same reasons G.I. stated earlier. This deck is based on brokeness, not consistency.

Quote And this deck is very mainphase based, thats what makes me wonder if another duress could/should be played over a Mana Drain, this might hurt people's Keeper hart, but it does fit the style of this deck better. I think I will try moving to 3 Duress and 3 Mana Drain, since I was already running 2 Duresses.

As you said in an earlier post, Duress is great for this Deck. This is where the slots I gained by cutting Lim-Dul's Vault and the now restricted Gush will go to.
I won't cut Mana Drains for Duress's, though (I thought about that since the beginning), for 3 reasons:
You mentioned one yourself:
This deck is very main-phase based. But why is it like that? Because you play a lot of expensive and semi-expensive (Wishes) Sorcery-speed spells. And to play those bombs early enough you need the speed Mana Drain gives you.
Number 2 is aggro:
This deck runs really low on creature removal, expecting to combo-out before you need to deal with to many creatures. As this deck will not go off ON A REGULAR BASIS before turn 5, you need to slow their offense down. Duress can't stop creatures, so it's not gonna cut it.
The last reason is somewhat of a personal preference. I like that this deck can play both well, Control and Combo. This is made possible because it runs 8 Counterspells to stop opposing spells and topdecks. I don't want to loose this option.

Quote Mana Vault/Grim: I didnt really understand the use of this, unless your wishing for an early twist I don't see much use in one of these. So, after some testing, I replaced it with a Land for a more stable mana-base.

I decided to do this, too, after my latest testing. Mana Vault was just ass, as I was taking loads of damage from it, when I had it and Grim Moolith was just to slow. Finally I have room for the Basic Island I wanted for a long time. (Though I'm thinking about Strip Mine as well. I'm able to race 1st turn LoA more often than not, but it does make me loose games.)

Quote Torch: A little questions, why Torch over any of the other XR spells. I would think, and found in testing, that there are better options, like Fireball and Disintegrate. When your toasting your opponent you should have enough counterbackup anyway. I did not test Tendrils yet, but it seems less optimal to me, It might be easier to kill with, but it seems a lot less usefull in the early game.

Quote This brings me back to the original point of tendrils.  You only need to play 8 spells in order to make tendrils a win condition, the wish and the tendrils itself count.  It seems like the most streamlined win condition that this deck has.  Check out the bonuses it has: it cannot be countered, it cannot be misdirected, it cannot be prevented and best of all you don't need to go through your entire library to win or play with conditional cards in the main deck.  Last time I checked having conditional cards in the sideboard is exactly what it was intended for.  And if you really need a mana sink in the board mind twist will do the trick very nicely.

Quote tendrils is already on my long list of options to try.  however, versus control, it almost necessitates a resolved y.will to be a win condition.  sometimes with future sight you can cast 8 spells in a turn, but what really gets your engine going is y.will.  in long, drawn out control matchups, sometimes i need every spell in the deck to take out my opponent.

I have talked about his further up, but I wanted to directly state my ideas about that problem.
I think Tendrils looks like hand-made for this deck. When FS hits I usually don't have any problems playing 8 or more spells per turn. It happened more often that I wasn't able to get enough mana for the kill as my opponent managed to remove Fastbond from the game by carefully timing his Disenchant effects during my Will-turn.
In addition here is finally a good wishable Lifegain that doesn't have WW in it's CC, making you less reliant on Zuran Orb.
I'll keep Trade Routes in here for now, and I'll have Tendrils + Braingeyser in my SB as a safety web, so that I'll still be able to kill my opponent with Fastbond + Academy +Routes if need be. This also gives me security against massive Lifegain, which might make killing hard (Kheonins life WW that was posted in the Vintage forum and Trix), as I can just "mill" them to death.

Quote Call of the Heard: It's cute, but have you ever been using this? I might be useful as an alternate win condition but it seems a little too far sought to me. The sidebaord is very tight as it is.

I haven't wished for it up to now and therefor cut it already. If MonoU or UrPhid become big, I'll think about it again, though, early Threads and card-advantageous Phid-blockers sound good against them.

Quote C.O.P. Red: Have you really been needing this?, I think Zuran Orb is the best answer to sligh, and should be enough.

With this deck I really respect AnkhSligh exactly because of 2 cards: Ankh itself and Price of Progress. Reducing the real threads in their deck by 50% sounds quite good to me. In addition to that, dropping C.o.P. will definitly be game in Shining, as I feel comfortable that they won't be able to Scroll me out in time, ever.

Quote After searching for a better answer than Wash Out for Blood Moon. I came to BEB, and yes I know its and instant  
The idea behind this is to sideboard BEB in and sideboard out Merchant. This makes you able to Wish for Merchant which finds you BEB to deal with Blood Moon permanently. I wonder what you think about this?

Quote as far as bloodmoon is concerned, i am much more worried about Urphid than TnT or others.  I don't think a reactive approach to this will work, which is why I'm sticking with aura fracture (which is also amazing against a large number of other decks).

As I suppose more UrPhid will be played after GATs death, I thought about Blood Moon, too. The strategy to use multiple answers really looks best to me, too. Because of that I'll try to fit Wash Out (if I can in any way find the room) and Aura Fracture (definitly going in now) into the SB.
I don't like the Wish->Scroll->BEB route, as it takes another turn (because I only have one U), not allowing me to take advantage of my opponent tapping out because I look nicely locked.

Quote With burning wish I saw the opportunity to take many of the situational bombs that traditional keeper runs (balance, regrowth, y.will, braingeyser) and be able to tutor for them reliably, but not have to draw them at inopportune times.  Often I either don't have the mana, or the graveyard bulk to abuse y.will (the other bombs have similar situational constraints).

People argue that the 1R used to wish for the will makes it less effective.  However, I find that the extra 1R cost is easily made up by the tempo gain of drawing (and casting right away) more playable cards.  I'm especially interested to hear what you think of this last argument, as I feel the opportunity cost of holding bombs is often underestimated.

Quote While both of these combos are adequate, they really are not optimal.  The first (playing every land in the deck) has the inherent problem of running into too many stoppers (counters, the extra FS, and even swords against a creatureless deck) and you can not always rely on having a reshuffle effect in hand or a fetch in play.  On a side note when going with this strategy you must have the Will in the board so you can get it whenever you need it; I have been running this combo for a little over a month now and have never even considered putting Will in the main deck.  Will is a reshuffle effect and you are playing four of them with the wishes.

Quote I totally agree with your last statement, but I still like the Will in the maindeck. In this deck you shouldnt be scared to cast your Will early on, since you have wishes to bring it back. I often use it early on just for a land a cantrip and/or something like a duress.
What I'm trying to say is that Will does not has to sit in your hand for turns. I think the real question about the Will is whether you like to tutor for it through Wishes or with the more "normal tutors" (Mystical, Vampiric, Demonic)

I like Will more in the MD, too. It's a lot easier to set up a surprise Y.Will in there endstep and win (Vampiric, Mystical) than having to give them a turn where they can dig for countermagic/untap.
To further show MD Wills strengths, the example of 2 games I already won (those I remember) because I had Will MD not SB.
In one I was able to Mystical for Will, with exactly enough Mana during my next turn to  protect it with Mana Drain AND have enough mana (wearing down defenses) to drop Sight afterwards (playing it second because Will with 2 mana doesn't do much).
In the other game I had 3 lands, Fastbond and Orb on the table, 2 Fetchies and a Mana Drain or 2 in my graveyard with both of us topdecking and Will in my hand. I drew the Sight while my opponent had just tapped out to play a Dryad. I went for Will, saccing lands and using Will as a colored Ritual. I was able to drop Sight even though the game looked far from good before. Had Will been a Burning Wish, I wouldn't have wished for it before (why, with that GY), not been able to use it for Deep Anal (3 Mana, not more) and I couldn't have used my opponents being tapped out to my advatange.
In short, I feel that IN THIS DECK Will is a bomb early enough that I want it for 3 mana not 5. If this deck played like traditional Keeper, I'd say your arguments are absolutely right, G.I., but as it is, Will is to strong early on to be a Wish-target for me.
The few times when I'm not able to turn it into a bomb really fast, I'm usually able to shuffle it away with BS.
In Addition, I feel that I burn enough Wishes without having to Wish for Will, something I want to cast almost every game.  

Quote I'm questioning another card, called Deep Analysis. Although it does have nice energy with the wished by removing itself from the game, its hasn't convinced that it deserves it's place.

This is something I definitly can't understand. Deep Analysis was MVP in my SB, being what I Wish for the most by far.
It's main treat is not that it removes itself from the game. The real reasons for it being great are twofold:
First it has the obvious advantages against countermagic that it has to be countered twice. This is what makes it a lot better than Concentrate.
Second I often Wish for it turn 3 if I have 4 mana (3 lands + mox), casting it turn 4. Wishing for Braingeyser would really suck here, as it would only draw 2 cards and that's all. Deep Anal gives me the full 4 cards. This is what makes this card a lot better than Braingeyser.
And think about it, when are you going to draw more than 4 cards with a Wished for Braingeyser?
Btw, Deep Analysis let's you play around the Sorcery-basedness of Shinig if you have to play control later on, because you can keep open double U as soon as you get to six mana when casting it. (8 with Drain Mana and Wish during that turn).


For my personal ideas, with the death of GAT I think about cutting down on white, playing it solely for Vindicate, Balance and Aura Fracture in the SB. That would allow me to cut one of the 2 Tundras for a Volcanic Island, stabilizing the manabase. The change I propose is to cut both MD StP and replace them with Innocent Blood, which is good enough against anything with multiple same-sized creatures (good old aggro) and single FAT creatures (Mask, Tog). In addition it gives you Morphling-kill, which can't hurt if Control becomes more popular again, as I think it will.

There is no actualized decklist of mine since long before this got moved (jippie, my first thread was EVF-worthy  ), so I'll post the listing I'm testing right now:

The Shining (17.6.03)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Gush
1 Trade Routes
2 Future Sight

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampirirc Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Duress
2 Innocent Blood

4 Burning Wish

1 Fastbond

1 Zuran Orb

1 Island
7 SoLoMox
1 LoA
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City of Brass
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB:

1 Braingeyser
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Aura Fracture
1 Regrowth
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate
1 Innocent Blood
1 C.o.P.: Red
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Deep Analysis
/EDIT: Forgot Regrowth in the SB. I knew I missed something when I fit in Wash Out and Fracture that easily. Cut Wash Out for now.

I think I talked about the reasons for the changes enough.
Pyroclasm had to go because I think it's the card whichs loss I'll feel least, as Balance fills a very similar role. If I miss it to much I'll have to cut down on Blood Moon protection or find something else to drop.

Braingeyser is there because Trade Routes + Academy is only the backup wincondition, in case I don't have enough spells left. This also protects me from Lifegain, as said before, and is more versatile than Deep Anal should I get to 10+ Mana somewhen.

[Thug]

Quote Trade Routes gave me some wins in testing and tournament play I wouldn't have had a chance to get without it, as it guided me through manafloods quite nicely. It is pretty situational, though. I'll think about removing it, when I have tested more with Tendrils instead of Torch. For now it will stay in.

This is exactly what I concluded, it it way too situational, when I was testing with it it always was the first card to get pitched to FoW  . I think this is a good reason to cut it, even if it removes your backup plan.

Quote I decided to cut Lim-Dul's Vault after those experiences. As much as I'd like playing 2 Vamps in this deck (how couldn't you, Thug?)

Maybe I'm a little too focussed on the Control or Aggro-Control matchups, but I really dont like playing with too much card disadvantegous (spelling?) cards.

Quote As you said in an earlier post, Duress is great for this Deck. This is where the slots I gained by cutting Lim-Dul's Vault and the now restricted Gush will go to.
I won't cut Mana Drains for Duress's, though (I thought about that since the beginning), for 3 reasons:
You mentioned one yourself:
This deck is very main-phase based. But why is it like that? Because you play a lot of expensive and semi-expensive (Wishes) Sorcery-speed spells. And to play those bombs early enough you need the speed Mana Drain gives you.
Number 2 is aggro:
This deck runs really low on creature removal, expecting to combo-out before you need to deal with to many creatures. As this deck will not go off ON A REGULAR BASIS before turn 5, you need to slow their offense down. Duress can't stop creatures, so it's not gonna cut it.
The last reason is somewhat of a personal preference. I like that this deck can play both well, Control and Combo. This is made possible because it runs 8 Counterspells to stop opposing spells and topdecks. I don't want to loose this option.

I have moved back to 4 Drains and 2 Duress. You almost stated my reasoning for this. Sometimes you end up topdecking and then a Drain is a lot better than a Duress. I would still like to have the 3th Duress somewhere, but for now it will just stay in the sidebaord to be wished for.

Quote I have talked about his further up, but I wanted to directly state my ideas about that problem.
I think Tendrils looks like hand-made for this deck. When FS hits I usually don't have any problems playing 8 or more spells per turn. It happened more often that I wasn't able to get enough mana for the kill as my opponent managed to remove Fastbond from the game by carefully timing his Disenchant effects during my Will-turn.
In addition here is finally a good wishable Lifegain that doesn't have WW in it's CC, making you less reliant on Zuran Orb.
I'll keep Trade Routes in here for now, and I'll have Tendrils + Braingeyser in my SB as a safety web, so that I'll still be able to kill my opponent with Fastbond + Academy +Routes if need be. This also gives me security against massive Lifegain, which might make killing hard (Kheonins life WW that was posted in the Vintage forum and Trix), as I can just "mill" them to death.

I still dont really like the Tendrils, sure if your "going off" you will easily cast 8 or even more spells, but you should kill pretty easy with a Torch/Fireball as well then. I understand that it looks and is a lot less risky, bu personally I have not yet have had problems with not being able to kill my opponent. And you mentioned your fastbond being removed from the game, how did that happen?, did he have a seal in play or didnt you have a counter ready?, because most of the time you will cast Will after you already pretty much went nuts and you should have found a Counter by then, or a duress.

Quote With this deck I really respect AnkhSligh exactly because of 2 cards: Ankh itself and Price of Progress. Reducing the real threads in their deck by 50% sounds quite good to me. In addition to that, dropping C.o.P. will definitly be game in Shining, as I feel comfortable that they won't be able to Scroll me out in time, ever.

I will be the frist to admit that Ankh, but mainly PoP can be a real pain is the ass. The addition of duress has been very good against sligh. It nabs Anks and PoP and even Blast after sideboard. Most of my test games against sligh went very simular. They would get some early beats, till is wass able to wish for an answer. Than I would tutor for Zuran Orb a.s.a.p and mainly survive till Will/Sight and combo them out. Although they off course can get lucky, I dont really fear it.
And the c.o.p might stop a lot, but it also has some disadvantegous, like you said, it doesn't stop scroll or Ankh damage, it needs a white mana to be cast, and it's only useful against sligh. I can't find room in the sidebaord for this and 3 Tutors + zOrb doesnt seems to be much weaker than 3 Tutors + zOrb + C.o.p.

Quote This is something I definitly can't understand. Deep Analysis was MVP in my SB, being what I Wish for the most by far.
It's main treat is not that it removes itself from the game. The real reasons for it being great are twofold:
First it has the obvious advantages against countermagic that it has to be countered twice. This is what makes it a lot better than Concentrate.
Second I often Wish for it turn 3 if I have 4 mana (3 lands + mox), casting it turn 4. Wishing for Braingeyser would really suck here, as it would only draw 2 cards and that's all. Deep Anal gives me the full 4 cards. This is what makes this card a lot better than Braingeyser.
And think about it, when are you going to draw more than 4 cards with a Wished for Braingeyser?
Btw, Deep Analysis let's you play around the Sorcery-basedness of Shinig if you have to play control later on, because you can keep open double U as soon as you get to six mana when casting it. (8 with Drain Mana and Wish during that turn).

Hmmmm, I have had totall other results with Deep Analysis. I wonder when you Wish for it, because I am mainly wishing for it if my opponent seems to be out of counters. Off course you can't always garanty this. But at that point I much rather spend 1R2UU for 3 card than 1R4UU and 3 life. I am testing Timetwister now, but this won't ever take the card drawing slot since its too situational, but it remains broken so I need to test it  

Quote For my personal ideas, with the death of GAT I think about cutting down on white, playing it solely for Vindicate, Balance and Aura Fracture in the SB. That would allow me to cut one of the 2 Tundras for a Volcanic Island, stabilizing the manabase. The change I propose is to cut both MD StP and replace them with Innocent Blood, which is good enough against anything with multiple same-sized creatures (good old aggro) and single FAT creatures (Mask, Tog). In addition it gives you Morphling-kill, which can't hurt if Control becomes more popular again, as I think it will.

I have also been looking if there would be a way to go to four colours. But I haven't tried removing white yet. It just has such nice tools, and Balance and Vindicate are pretty hard to replace, as is Seal/Fracture.

I have tried to cut Green, might sound strange since you'll lose Fastbond, but thats just about it. It might still be casted off a City or you could totally cut it. However that would mean you will have to move to Tendrils for the kill.

Quote The Shining (17.6.03)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Gush
1 Trade Routes
2 Future Sight

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampirirc Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Duress
2 Innocent Blood

4 Burning Wish

1 Fastbond

1 Zuran Orb

1 Island
7 SoLoMox
1 LoA
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City of Brass
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB:

1 Braingeyser
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Aura Fracture
1 Wash Out
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate
1 Innocent Blood
1 C.o.P.: Red
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Deep Analysis

I don't really understand the changes in this list. You cutted a Tundra while still running a pretty large amount of white cards. And the swords got replaced by bloods, which seems less optimal to me. Couldn't you easier remove a Tropical and add a Tundra again? There's not that much need for green mana.

I see you a running the grand totall of 4 duresses between maindeck and sidebaord now, how has this been to you? I would preffer more diversity in my sideboard.

And I see you dont run Regrowth anymore, this I something I totally agree with, but just can't do myself. Regrowth is in my sideboard for the lonely purpose of getting back Will when Will ends up in my graveyard somehow. You might get around this by sideboarding out Will in some matchups (something I tried, but didn't felt comfortable with). Tell me what you think about this...

And I have cutted Pyroclasm too, it only really excelled against sligh, against the rest balance is just superior like 90% of the times.

I'm currently testing woth another kill condition in the sidebaord, but I'll get back to this later

And it's great to have these discussions about cardchoices and new ideas, since I feel like it really can improve this archetype, since it's relatively new and not 100% discovered yet

Koen

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote did he have a seal in play or didnt you have a counter ready?, because most of the time you will cast Will after you already pretty much went nuts and you should have found a Counter by then, or a duress.

Yep, a Seal I had to play into, as his Dryad was going to kill me next turn. And Disenchant/Naturalize are Instants...

Quote This is exactly what I concluded, it it way too situational, when I was testing with it it always was the first card to get pitched to FoW . I think this is a good reason to cut it, even if it removes your backup plan.

Maybe I'll come to the same conclusions after more testing. Right now I feel it's good enough to keep it.

Quote I will be the frist to admit that Ankh, but mainly PoP can be a real pain is the ass. The addition of duress has been very good against sligh. It nabs Anks and PoP and even Blast after sideboard. Most of my test games against sligh went very simular. They would get some early beats, till is wass able to wish for an answer. Than I would tutor for Zuran Orb a.s.a.p and mainly survive till Will/Sight and combo them out. Although they off course can get lucky, I dont really fear it.
And the c.o.p might stop a lot, but it also has some disadvantegous, like you said, it doesn't stop scroll or Ankh damage, it needs a white mana to be cast, and it's only useful against sligh. I can't find room in the sidebaord for this and 3 Tutors + zOrb doesnt seems to be much weaker than 3 Tutors + zOrb + C.o.p.

Maybe the MD Duress are enough to stop the bleeding. Those are my most recent changes and I didn't have time to test against Sligh. I'll see if I can go without CoP, if yes I'll finally have room

Quote Hmmmm, I have had totall other results with Deep Analysis. I wonder when you Wish for it, because I am mainly wishing for it if my opponent seems to be out of counters. Off course you can't always garanty this.

I Wish for it as soon as I can cast it (meaning if I'm going to have 4 mana next turn) against control if I don't especially need something else. If they don't counter Wish, it definitly goes 2 for 1 against their Counters (their matchup MVPs...). If they don't counter it, I just drew 4 cards. This is what gives me the ability to pretty reliably race 1st turn LoA (Right now its: Opposing 1st turn LoAs I didn't match: 6. Games of those won by me: 4) .

Quote I have also been looking if there would be a way to go to four colours. But I haven't tried removing white yet. It just has such nice tools, and Balance and Vindicate are pretty hard to replace, as is Seal/Fracture.

Quote I don't really understand the changes in this list. You cutted a Tundra while still running a pretty large amount of white cards. And the swords got replaced by bloods, which seems less optimal to me.

I won't completely remove White, Balance is just to important. But my reasoning for cutting down on it is the following:
Most decks besides GAT don't have multiple threats from which you want to remove a single one, they have either lots of creatures or a single big one. In those situations Blood is only marginally worse than StP. OTH if your opponent plays creatureless, StP CAN be a stop when you want to start the engine. Blood can be played from the top just the same. The additional benefit is the more stable mana base.

I play 3 White cards: Balance, Vindicate and Aura Fracture. 2 of them are Wish-targets, and the third is usually not needed if you need any of the other 2. So I effectively play a single White card I don't even need in every matchup. 3 + 5 (fetch) sources of white should be enough, I think.

Quote And I see you dont run Regrowth anymore, this I something I totally agree with, but just can't do myself. Regrowth is in my sideboard for the lonely purpose of getting back Will when Will ends up in my graveyard somehow. You might get around this by sideboarding out Will in some matchups (something I tried, but didn't felt comfortable with). Tell me what you think about this...

I keep it for the same reason. It not being included was an oversight. :/ See my editing comment at the posted decklist.


Another win-condition? What is it? Please don't tell me it's that damn Tog again .

Quote And it's great to have these discussions about cardchoices and new ideas, since I feel like it really can improve this archetype, since it's relatively new and not 100% discovered yet

Sign me up. This thread does exactly what I hoped it would do

[Thug]

Quote Yep, a Seal I had to play into, as his Dryad was going to kill me next turn. And Disenchant/Naturalize are Instants...

Oh well, I guess shit happens, besides, I have never seen a deck with seals and dryads  

Quote I Wish for it as soon as I can cast it (meaning if I'm going to have 4 mana next turn) against control if I don't especially need something else. If they don't counter Wish, it definitly goes 2 for 1 against their Counters (their matchup MVPs...). If they don't counter it, I just drew 4 cards. This is what gives me the ability to pretty reliably race 1st turn LoA (Right now its: Opposing 1st turn LoAs I didn't match: 6. Games of those won by me: 4) .

Hmmm, I'm wishing for Duress very often, to force through the big imporant spells (read: Future Sight). Against a LoA, my strategy is to play most forward as possible, since they dropped LoA they probably won't have UU ready very early so try to force them below cards. Off course Vindicating LoA also happens, but I found that quite hard

I might give Deep Analysis another try

Quote I won't completely remove White, Balance is just to important. But my reasoning for cutting down on it is the following:
Most decks besides GAT don't have multiple threats from which you want to remove a single one, they have either lots of creatures or a single big one. In those situations Blood is only marginally worse than StP. OTH if your opponent plays creatureless, StP CAN be a stop when you want to start the engine. Blood can be played from the top just the same. The additional benefit is the more stable mana base.

Swords is a lot better against TNT for example, and helps get's rid of annoying creatures (Meddling Mage, Lyrist, etc.). I'm not trying to say that Blood is a bad choice, but you gain so less by replacing the swords, you were able to cut 1 Tundra thats all. I still rather play with my swords and cut a Tropical instead. Oh and, if your maindecking bloods, I see no reason, except misdirection,  not to play Chainer'd Edict instead.

My other win condition was something woth tokens   a lot of them, but it was more funny than useful

I have replaced the Fireball slot with Fanning the Flames, so if needed I can do more damage, is just takes a few more turns.

Koen

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Oh well, I guess shit happens, besides, I have never seen a deck with seals and dryads

Just wait till we get the Dülmen T8 posted and look for second place. This Supergro variant would have taken GATs Metagameplace, IMHO, together with GroMask if Tog had been restricted instead of Gush. (Me and him played the same deck card for card, having modified Maxims build together, placing 2nd (Maxim) and 10th (me) respectively)

Quote Hmmm, I'm wishing for Duress very often, to force through the big imporant spells (read: Future Sight). Against a LoA, my strategy is to play most forward as possible, since they dropped LoA they probably won't have UU ready very early so try to force them below cards. Off course Vindicating LoA also happens, but I found that quite hard

I usually Wish for Duress if I have Sight and 6 mana. This usually is my second Wish, though. Deep Analysis brings me closer to that Wish, the Mana and Sight.
Forcing a good player to go below 6 cards during your turn is really hard, as they'll draw with LoA during your turn before pitching to FoW. That way their draw brings them back to LoA range, and I've gained nothing. A resolved Deep Anal matches 4 turns of LoA-action, though. (or costs them the counters they drew in those cards).
I never wished for Vindicate up to now (in all test and tournament games), as it is countered to easily, especially if my opponent has an active LoA. And if it gets countered, that's game, as I usually won't find a second Wish in time. I'm trying to race and it works so far.

Quote Swords is a lot better against TNT for example, and helps get's rid of annoying creatures (Meddling Mage, Lyrist, etc.). I'm not trying to say that Blood is a bad choice, but you gain so less by replacing the swords, you were able to cut 1 Tundra thats all. I still rather play with my swords and cut a Tropical instead. Oh and, if your maindecking bloods, I see no reason, except misdirection,  not to play Chainer'd Edict instead.

Swords is better for 2 matchups, TNT and Vengeur Mask.
The real problem with StP in the new Metagame is, that it will hurt against a lot of good decks, if it's sitting on top of your library when you start comboing and don't already have the draw to get around it (Keeper, RectorTrix, Hulk before it wants to kill).
Against TnT it's only marginally better, as Welder is not the big problem for this deck. You'll have to play for the combo as fast as possible anyway. If you play control, you'll most probably loose.
Vengeur Mask is what really makes me think about playing StP, as removing a Bird when staring down a Dread sitting besides it is really ugly.
I tested with a single Chainers Edict and a single Blood to see which card works better. Chainers manacost makes it the weaker card here. You just want to keep UU open most of the time and both of them being Sorcerys that's a lot harder with Chainers early game.
Which makes me think... who says we have to play Sorcerys MD...I'll test Diabolic Edict! (Ideas while writing. Cool  ). The only point against that is, it's not 1st turn removal. But it's better against TnTs Anger.... Testing will tell.
 
The single reason why I don't want to cut down on Tropicals is Wasteland. You just NEED Fastbond in play to really combo out, and having your only Fetchable green Land wasted can be devastating that way. After all you only have 3 (+Lotus) sources of G without the tropicals. At the same time, against most decks you don't need the white for at least half the games you play, so that shouldn't pose to much of a problem.

Quote I have replaced the Fireball slot with Fanning the Flames, so if needed I can do more damage, is just takes a few more turns.

This sounds like an idea worth exploring. That way non-infinite lifegain could be handled better and you can kill without successfully comboing out with Fastbond. The RR should not be a problem by the time you can kill anyway. Nice  .

[Thug]

Quote Which makes me think... who says we have to play Sorcerys MD...I'll test Diabolic Edict! (Ideas while writing. Cool  ). The only point against that is, it's not 1st turn removal. But it's better against TnTs Anger.... Testing will tell.

Hmm, it's an istant,
Hmmm, it targets the creature (so you can choose)
Hmmmmm, it's effective first turn

I swear, what you'r looking for is swords  

------------------------------

What do you think about replacing the Regrowth with either Morningtide or more likely Decompose? To save you the trouble of looking them up:

Morningtide - 1W - Sorcery (duh!)
Remove all cards in all graveyards from the game

Decompose - 1B - Sorcery
Remove up to three target cards in a single graveyard from the game

They also allow you to get back Will after it got discarded, however it will cost you a Wish more, but these cards might have more other use than Regrowth.

Just a thought...

Koen

[Grand Inquisitor]

i finally got to do some play-testing, and here's what i found.

grim/pa is probably on the bench for good unless i see convincing reasons to put it back in.  zorb and fastbond might as well say "infinite mana" in this deck.  as for now, i'm sticking with trade routes, which isn't terrible, but is a blue card that can move me through my deck faster.  especially if sligh, or aggro in general gets more popular now that gat is gone, this deck must be able to go almost pure combo.

there is no way in hell i'm dropping white, so i guess i'm staying at 4 colors.  swords are still a great metagame card, and aura fracture is a house out of the board (its won a few games against rector-trix).  additionally, wish targets balance and vindicate can't really be replaced.

i played about ten games against rector-trix.  although some were against a sub-optimal build, i still think, overall, its a good matchup (55-70%).  i would really like to have a wish-able graveyard hate card, but i just don't see it happening.

the key to this matchup is brainstorm and duress (which i now have 3 between board and md).  duress is by far, my new mvp.  i've also decided to test mind twist md, and have liked the results so far.  y.will is still staying in the sb, though, as i really like being able to wish for it while saving md tutors for fastbond, future sight or ancestral.  i would really like to fit in more wastelands or maybe a shaman, but for now, the 4th brainstorm is sticking around.

btw, i think tendrills is a pile.  i may switch fireball for desintigrate if rector becomes really popular   .  i also have found no problem with all my win conditions being in the board.


i'll have more after tourney's this weekend.  i'd like to hear what others have found if they've done any recent testing.

[MoreFling]

Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ June 20 2003,03:37)btw, i think tendrills is a pile.  i may switch fireball for desintigrate if rector becomes really popular   .  i also have found no problem with all my win conditions being in the board.

So get ready to desintegrate

Anyway, isn't Lava Burst better than both Fireball and Desintagrate? It's unpreventable, and unmisdirectable. That seems superior to me. your counters should try to make sure the Rector doesn't hit in the first place, so you don't have to run a suboptimal burn-spell like Desintegrate.

On a sidenote, Cunning Wish --> Ebony Charm/Coffin Purge is a better way to deal with a rector in the first place.

If this has been mentioned earlier, I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole thread

[Womprax]

Quote (MoreFling @ June 20 2003,12:44)Anyway, isn't Lava Burst better than both Fireball and Desintagrate? It's unpreventable, and unmisdirectable. That seems superior to me. your counters should try to make sure the Rector doesn't hit in the first place, so you don't have to run a suboptimal burn-spell like Desintegrate.

Lave Burst XR
Lava Burst deals X damage to target creature or player. If Lava Burst would deal damage to a creature, that damage can't be prevented or dealt instead to another creature or player.

 

[Thug]

Quote Anyway, isn't Lava Burst better than both Fireball and Desintagrate? It's unpreventable, and unmisdirectable. That seems superior to me. your counters should try to make sure the Rector doesn't hit in the first place, so you don't have to run a suboptimal burn-spell like Desintegrate.

Quote Lave Burst XR
Lava Burst deals X damage to target creature or player. If Lava Burst would deal damage to a creature, that damage can't be prevented or dealt instead to another creature or player.

Talking about suboptimal, huh?  

Anyway, even if I couldn't be prevented or misdirected I dont think it would be better than Fireball or Disentegrate. Because at the time your ready to burn your opponent to death, you will most likely have 5 or more counters in your hand. The advantages Disentegrate and Firball have can be useful in the earlier game, when your not winning yet.

I'll stick to Fanning the Flames for now, since it gives me a little more secure feeling, and you won't have to scoop against lifegain  

Quote On a sidenote, Cunning Wish --> Ebony Charm/Coffin Purge is a better way to deal with a rector in the first place.

Yes, it is a lot better, but this deck doesnt play Cunning Wish, and can't support it. I'm not sure yet if Decompose has it uses, but if it does I could see it replace Regrowth.

Koen

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote I'll stick to Fanning the Flames for now, since it gives me a little more secure feeling, and you won't have to scoop against lifegain  

i've been running fireball (wb), mostly for style points, but i really don't think it matters much.  torch isn't really better since i'll have usually duressed them or have multiple counter-back up when i go off.  i've used fireball to kill creatures maybe twice, so i may just put in desintigrate for the rare occasions where they leave a rector out for a turn.

not that i've ever seen life gain be an issue in competitive magic, but even if it was, i can still easily generate 80 mana or so with tolarian/trade routes.  if they've gained infinite, i'll just deck them (i'm still liking braingeyser in my board).

i know i'm late on the wagon, but i want to emphasize how much i like not drawing grim or P/A.  this might change if i test more against aggro, but i doubt it.

[Thug]

Quote not that i've ever seen life gain be an issue in competitive magic, but even if it was, i can still easily generate 80 mana or so with tolarian/trade routes.  if they've gained infinite, i'll just deck them (i'm still liking braingeyser in my board).

Totally true, but the thing is ... I don't run trade routes anymore  
So I think Fanning is the optimal card for me

[Grand Inquisitor]

if you don't run trade routes you rely on fastbond, zorb, y.will?  i've won a few times like that, but its pretty messy.

also, kind of a minor point, since i expect to see more keeper and sligh, trade routes is great against wastelands.

[Thug]

Quote if you don't run trade routes you rely on fastbond, zorb, y.will?  i've won a few times like that, but its pretty messy.

Correct, it might look messy to you, but thats probabaly because your not focussing on it, you are just focussing on Fastbond + Routes and Academy.
You can make 30+ mana most of the time, which should be enough in most circumstances, and if it isn't there's always the buyback of Fanning.

In my opinion Trade Routes is a card that simplifies your combo/win condition but doesn't provide much other advantages.

Quote also, kind of a minor point, since i expect to see more keeper and sligh, trade routes is great against wastelands.

You mentioned that it would be great against wastelands, this might be true, but I don't think you are right about the Sligh matchup. In my opinion Routes is a very weak card in the Sligh matchup, for three reasons.

- With an Ankh in play it (almost) doesn't matter if you will be saving your land or not, since you rather won't replay it.
- Against Sligh you want to get out Zuran Orb a.s.a.p. and this gives you another excellent way to dodge Wasteland.
- Sligh is pretty fast so the thinning ability won't see much use, because you won't have the time for it.

This is what I concluded from testing, but you might be playing the deck different so I would like to hear your opinion.

Koen

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Decompose - 1B - Sorcery
Remove up to three target cards in a single graveyard from the game

They also allow you to get back Will after it got discarded, however it will cost you a Wish more, but these cards might have more other use than Regrowth.

Just a thought...

Koen

I use enough Wishes the way the deck plays right now. I don't think I'll have time and Wishes to remove my Will to get it back later. This would cost ALL 3 non killcondition Wishes to recycle Will. That will probably be to narrow.

On the whole Fireball vs Torch vs whatever x-burn-discussion:
Anything but Fanning the Flames vs. other doesn't really do much. Fanning the Flames is worse in things like punishing your opponent for Necroing to much (I won against Void in testing because I could burn him for exactly his 5 last life) but gives you more lategame security against Lifegain.
On other X-spells, in my experence it doesn't really matter, which one you use, I knever wished for it early and I never needed the special ability later on. Hell, If you like it, you might even use your original Portal Blaze, I suppose you won't feel the difference.
Regarding Tendrils: I will definitly play it, it allows you to win a lot easier in some circumstances (like Void on the table).
 

Quote if you don't run trade routes you rely on fastbond, zorb, y.will?  i've won a few times like that, but its pretty messy.

Quote Correct, it might look messy to you, but thats probabaly because your not focussing on it, you are just focussing on Fastbond + Routes and Academy.
You can make 30+ mana most of the time, which should be enough in most circumstances, and if it isn't there's always the buyback of Fanning.

It does look messy, because it definitly IS messy. BUT it works nonetheless, it's just your opponent will hate you for doing complex plays for 5 minutes in a row to generate your winning mana (and it gives you more options for playing-errors).
Having said this, I usually win by this option, too, as I am not looking for Trade + Academy +Bond, it just happens to come up sometimes.
What makes me like Trade Routes, is it's ability to protect my land (mana screw), cycle my land (mana flood) and work well with Sight (cycle lands to remove counters from the top). These options may not be that relevant against Sligh, but they're really important when playing against deck like DrawGo (MonoU, Ur, Ub) and ParagonKeeper. Most games you loose against other control-decks, you loose because they manage to screw you out early on or you get flooded later (I usually cycle all lands after the 7th mana hit the table...).
After all Trade Routes still is the card I'll most probably cut when i feel the URGENT need to add something else to the MD, but for now it does best from all things I tested in that spot.


Aside from that: Did anybody else test against DeedVoid? My testing results where worse than I suspected (ok, maybe I just don't give Void enough credit), with me winning only about 50% of the games. Early Voids made comboing hard, Mishras where a pain in the ass (but managable) and Deed is a house. Do you have similar experiences or is this based on my lack of experience in the matchup (I had played against Void about 8 to 12 playtesting and tournament games before, none of those with The Shining)? It sure was a lot harder than Sui, Voids and Deeds >> Creatures.

[Thug]

Quote Aside from that: Did anybody else test against DeedVoid? My testing results where worse than I suspected (ok, maybe I just don't give Void enough credit), with me winning only about 50% of the games. Early Voids made comboing hard, Mishras where a pain in the ass (but managable) and Deed is a house. Do you have similar experiences or is this based on my lack of experience in the matchup (I had played against Void about 8 to 12 playtesting and tournament games before, none of those with The Shining)? It sure was a lot harder than Sui, Voids and Deeds >> Creatures.

I Have played Deedvoid myself (I like to call it Pernicious Void). I think its the best possible Void-deck, but we won't get into that discussion again. I haven't tested against it yet, since there are not many people playing it, since they (still   ) prefer mono-black over the green splash.

My test results against normal void are a little in my favour. Your screwed if Void hits, I believe I only won 1 game after a void hitted. Since most Black-Green decks place the Deeds in place of the Kegs (which aren't very effective against the Shining) I could see the advantage move a little more to their side.
I will sure test this, and see what it's really like


Different than I first said, I'm starting to like Tendrils. I found my kill to be a little too vulnerable to Graveyard Hate, and Tendrils might make it a little easier to play around, then again, I have not tested it yet, but from now on I will count the numbers of spells I could play  

EDIT:

Quote I use enough Wishes the way the deck plays right now. I don't think I'll have time and Wishes to remove my Will to get it back later. This would cost ALL 3 non killcondition Wishes to recycle Will. That will probably be to narrow.

Hmmm, ALL 3 non killcondition wishes?, am I missing something?

- First wish to get Decompose
- Cast Decompose removing Will from the game
- Second Wish for the Will
- Go nust with Will
- Have 2 Wishes left, 1 for the kill, 1 for utility (this might already have been used)

I'm not sold on the Decompose either, but I was just an option, and I need to test it before I'll put it aside.

Quote Mishras where a pain in the ass

Swords > Blood    

[Radagast]

@ people who like Trade Routes for the cycling: Have you considered Mesmeric Trance? (Please spare me the frustration of pretending to be stupid enough to not know the difference between one and two mana and comparing it to Compulsion.)

Mesmeric Trance
1UU
Enchantment
Cumulative upkeep 1
U, Discard a card: Draw a card.

The cumulative upkeep is largely irrelevant since you'll find enough things to win by the time it would hit 2.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Regarding Tendrils: I will definitly play it, it allows you to win a lot easier in some circumstances (like Void on the table

how is casting 7+ spells in one turn better than 1 big spell with void on the table?  what am i missing here?

i'll go back to testing tendrils, but for now, i'm too worried about drawn out games against control (as opposed to agg/control, which folds early) where i don't have enough spells left in my library to cast.

Quote Mesmeric Trance
1UU
Enchantment
Cumulative upkeep 1
U, Discard a card: Draw a card.

The cumulative upkeep is largely irrelevant since you'll find enough things to win by the time it would hit 2

actually, its not the cycling effect that i'm really after with trade routes, its being able to replay lands.  while i'll agree that moving through a deck faster with future sight is also an added value, the real reason i play trade routes is to dodge wastelands, and replay tolarian infinitely.

i've done a lot of control mirror's recently, and not surprisingly, its all about who draws more strips.  i am really starting to fear 5 strip keeper if it becomes popular.  trade routes isn't a perfect solution, but it helps more than anything else in the deck.

regarding sligh, i have found it to be a problematic matchup, but i haven't tested enough, and i wasn't running primitive justice before.

there's a power tourney coming up this weekend, so i should have some more 'real-life' results coming soon.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Hmmm, ALL 3 non killcondition wishes?, am I missing something?

- First wish to get Decompose
- Cast Decompose removing Will from the game
- Second Wish for the Will
- Go nuts with Will
- Have 2 Wishes left, 1 for the kill, 1 for utility (this might already have been used)

I'm not sold on the Decompose either, but I was just an option, and I need to test it before I'll put it aside.

Looks like I had a kinda blackout yesterday. Your right, it's 2 of them not all 3. This starts looking better now.

Quote Mmesmeric Trance

In addition to what G.I. said, the problem is, you only have 2 dead non-land cards in your deck against control (which is where the cycling is usefull), which means you won't cycle a lot more cards, as you're still mainly discarding the lands. (I was thinking about compulsion, but discarded that idea for the same reasons)

Quote how is casting 7+ spells in one turn better than 1 big spell with void on the table?  what am i missing here?

The difference is, you only have to play them, not successfully cast them. Just throw Moxen, Brainstorms and other stuff like FoW into Void, getting them countered, to up your spellcount. You just need 7 mana left for the Tendrils. This means you need only about half the mana you need for the Torch-Kill AND you don't mind if Academy was stripped early on.

Quote i've done a lot of control mirror's recently, and not surprisingly, its all about who draws more strips.

You mean with The Shining/Your Mother? And you lost all of them ??  (you don't play more than a single Strip Mine, right?)

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote The difference is, you only have to play them, not successfully cast them

derf, thanks mons.

regarding my 'testing' what i was doing was playing control matchups (paragon, Urphid & YM) with perfect information (open hands), and what i found was that the single largest factor was number of strips/wastes drawn.  it was even a larger factor than resolving draw spells.  obviously, this isn't the most realistic type of testing, but it does get me thinking.

[Thug]

Quote Looks like I had a kinda blackout yesterday. Your right, it's 2 of them not all 3. This starts looking better now.

Funny, but I ditched the Idea  
The Decompose is not very useful in any matchup and I used the Regrowth for some other card Yesterday, so Regrowth it is..... for now

Quote The difference is, you only have to play them, not successfully cast them. Just throw Moxen, Brainstorms and other stuff like FoW into Void, getting them countered, to up your spellcount. You just need 7 mana left for the Tendrils. This means you need only about half the mana you need for the Torch-Kill AND you don't mind if Academy was stripped early on.

Nice one, although it still will be a very slim change to win after the Void hits, this at least gives you a change

I am totally convinced of Tendrils now, I played with it yesterday and it almost felt like cheating  
If your using the Will you should always get 8 spells, but you can actually use the card much earlier already. And as said before it's much more safer.

Quote regarding my 'testing' what i was doing was playing control matchups (paragon, Urphid & YM) with perfect information (open hands), and what i found was that the single largest factor was number of strips/wastes drawn.  it was even a larger factor than resolving draw spells.  obviously, this isn't the most realistic type of testing, but it does get me thinking.

Strange,
could you post your current manabase, this is mine:

3 City of Brass
5 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 LoA
7 Solomox

Aside from mana light hands, I never had much trouble with wastelands. I try to leave a Fetchland on the Table or a City in my hand, if I am needing a certain colour in the near future.
Off course double wasteland hands do hurt, but I found this not to be a real problem against control, a double wasteland hand of sligh can be a lot scarrier, since they dont allow you much time to rebuild your mana.

I did quite some testing and here are some results:

Pernicious Void: Strangly enough this went a lot better than I expected, where the games I played before against normal Void were really close, these games were a piece of cake. Out of 6 games, I only lost 1, to a topdecked Void. The results might have been better because of stupid luck, or maybe I'm starting to get a little more experienced with the deck.

TNT: Before sideboard this seems to be really in your favour. You should be able to slow their rush and Survival never becomes a real threat if you don't give them the time to set it up. After sidebaording (I sideboarded in 1 Fracture for a Gush I believe, my opponent sided in 3 Blood Moons and 3 REB's) its gets a little closer, but it's still in your favour.

Sligh: Before sideboard I won more than I lost, Zuran Orb really wins you gfames here. After Sidebaording this is a real close call. After some testing I decided to add the Cop RED to my sidebaord after all, since it provided a little more security.

Mask: I tested some pre-sidebaord games against a Tainted Mask deck with 2 Maindeck Blood Moons  
And again it went a lot better than I thought it would, Dreadnought can be easilly delt with with swords, or a Wish (Justice rules here). Blood Moon backup by a lot of disruption is irritating, but I was able to function quite decent with a Blood Moon on the Table, I held out long enough to wish for washout, play it, play will and go nuts with Tendrils for the kill.

Koen

[Grand Inquisitor]

for the record, my mana base is:

1x library
1x strip mine
1x tropical island
1x city of brass
1x tolarian academy
1x flooded strand
4x polluted delta
3x volcanic island
3x underground sea
3x tundra
7x solomoxen

the single island for washout isn't in my build, since urphid is a much bigger concern than tnt, and that strategy just won't work against them.  i've added more duress (both md and sb) and try to nab it before it hits the table.

i haven't had too much trouble against wasteland, especially against black-based decks.  however, i  can see how early strips by keeper could give them an advantage that i can't recover from (by allowing them to win early counter wars).

since you guys love tendrils so much, i'll give it another go.  i suspect its just a difference in playstyle.  i'm still more of a control player, than a combo player at heart

[Grand Inquisitor]

i ran YM in a 30 person (most fully powered) tournament this past weekend.  Unfortunately, due to personal problems, my level of play was rather pathetic, and play errors more than anythings killed me.  what i did find was that:

i need fewer REB's than I thought in my sb, as i'd much rather side in duress against control, and stp against phids and togs.

ankh sligh is becoming a big concern.  i can't justify playing a deck that doesn't de consistently well against sligh.  our land count is lower than traditional keeper, and while we can win faster, we are much more easily disrupted by ankh and wastelands.  also, fastbond can't accelerate the combo you need to pull off.  i've added primitive justice, but this is still a matchup i don't look forward to.  i was definitely off my game on saturday, but has anyone else had this trouble with sligh?

also, i'm so glad gush is leaving the format...

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I felt the same about REB and Duress, which is why I had the Duress in my SB not more than 2 blasts. I can't SB StPs against Phids, though, I don't have any in my SB...

I don't constantly loose to AnkhSligh, but it's not an easy one, either. Ankh and PoP are their threads and if they draw enough of them early enough it's bad news. MD Duress does a lot to help this, though. I feel like playing OldSchool Keeper against OldSchool Sligh usually. It's better than 50% but not by far.

For Gush: It's Gone, It's Gone It's Gone *dances a happyness dance*