Stacks Primer (Part 1 of 2)

[waSP]

With only 1 red spell maindeck, I don't see the necessity of basic mountains.  Smokestack appears to be your best bet for killing B2B.  I have found that getting basic islands can be very important when stabilizing against aggro (wastelands hurt).  I don't know that everyone runs the crypt main and i prefer the mana vault over the  monolith.  With a more creature based build the Grim is definitely better.  I'm running tetravus main but might replace him.  I've found little reason to run the blasts in the board.  Against decks that they are good against (sans academy), you'd be better off drawing an artifact threat.

Because of my perfectionist play style, i was wondering if we could fit a relearn or another spell to recycle the twister? (maybe its my weird parfait mentality)

[Toast]

Ok, this one is sort of Awkward so Ill explain it first, I am quoting Daves response to something wasp said.

Quote "With only 1 red spell maindeck, I don't see the necessity of basic mountains.  Smokestack appears to be your best bet for killing B2B."

Quote waSP, the main deck runs 5 red spells (4 welders and 1 wheel).  Also, the sideboard is Red-Heavy (11 spells), and I believe that to preserve consistency you need 7 or 8 red sources (lotus, ruby, 4 volcanic islands, 2 mountains).  This is further enhanced by using fetch lands (in fact, i think the fetch lands are required...).  I would not feel confident running only 5/6 sources of Red (this includes mox ruby and black lotus) because this deck relies on goblin welder in the main, and key sideboard cards.
 
as for recursion, we might all consider using Bosium Strip since it is an artifact and it can get you instants as well as sorcery's to recur.  There is also Recall, which could allow you to recover several spells. However, I'm not convinced that either of these will fit into the deck (what would we take out?).

and here is some commentary trying to refocus the discussion:

Quote Maybe we need to look at this from another angle.  Perhaps we should try to determine what the fastest, "best" kill condition is, and then build around that.
 
LockStock is using Karns + Juggernauts + Triskelion.  Ducktape '03 uses Black Vise.  Dulmen uses Karns + Triskelion.  All builds can use deck depletion to win.
 
All of the decks have had success, so maybe Black Vise isn't as sub-optimal as some have suggested, but it must have other cards in the deck to support it.  LockStock and Dulmen are more alike in their win conditions.
 
As for color:
 
LockStock is more of a mono-Red build.
 
Ducktape is U/R.
 
Dulmen follows the "TnT theory" of multi-color (this almost comes across like a regional preference to me--Europe likes more than 2 colors), but at it's heart it is U/R.
 
We all have our own ideas as to what is 'best' in the final build.  
 
I know that I have changed my build a lot, based on the input from users of this forum.  I think that a modified version of the Dulmen Build is the strongest option, using some of the tech from Ducktape (especially using 2 color U/R).  I don't personally like Ducktape's win condition (Black Vise--it's fun, but not fast, and as others have pointed out, you have to watch out for players who will stall for a tie).
 
Karn is strong, turning the other big artifacts into lethal damage-dealing creatures.  LockStock is using Juggernauts, but it is trying to win via attacking with creatures.  I dont believe this is the best idea when we are using cards like Time Vault and Meditate to skip turns.  It can be frustrating to look at the Juggernaut on the table at the same time that you use a Meditate.  At that point, I would rather have a Sphere of Resistence on the table.
 
In my opinion, I think we should be looking at a U/R build, utilizing Karn as the main kill card, Triskelion as creature control (as well as a back-up kill card or finisher), and "decking" as a last resort (if it happens, great!).  The U/R mana base is stable and can get past B2B quite well.  Blood Moon affects the deck, but not too badly (we can still play most of our cards, while the other player sits back and dies).  Meditate and Time Vault work well with Smokestack, Sphere's, and Tangle Wire's.  
 
U/R card drawing with Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, Ancestral, Meditate, Timetwister, and Timewalk all add to the card drawing power, and Memory Jar with Welder is just sick.  We might even consider Browbeats, although I think we have enough going for us (and i dont think there is room--the other cards seem to be too key to drop slots for).
 
Smmenen mentioned that Dulmen did not use Mana Vault, and I agree that the build should have used it.  In fact, I think that ALL builds should run the Mana Vault standard.  While some of players are not running Mana Crypt, I think it should be standard.  We can minimize it's downside with the Time Vault and Meditates, and then swap it using Goblin Welders.

I agree with david, we should try to standardize the deck a bit more. Obviously people will add in their personal choices but do we all truely think that Karn, Vise, and Time Vault are all equal kill conditions? One must be slightly better against the rest of the field, we should figure out what that one is.

[waSP]

I just realized how tired I was when i posted that.  I shelved my ducktape for a couple weeks to work on another deck so I'd been a little out of practice with it and completely missed the key card to the deck.  I believe that two of the kill conditions are necessary.  Karn is certainly the fastest one, but if they play StP and Karn is your only kill you will be in trouble.  Time Vault is really better than people give it credit for too.  The optimal thing to do with it is use it to weld something back in, or discard it to Wheel   .  Once you get the lock down, you don't want to risk your opponent somehow mounting a comeback.  Time Vault makes sure you never have to risk any of your permanents.  I'm curious about any testing of Tetravus.  I personally love it; it chumps suicide morphling, makes smokestack even more one sided, and is really good welder fodder.  Is it just too slow for the deck?

[Toad]

Quote (waSP @ May 03 2003,11:10)Karn is certainly the fastest one, but if they play StP and Karn is your only kill you will be in trouble.

I have practiced the deck a lot, even against Keeper or White Weenies with 4 Swords to Plowshares. I've never found myself in trouble with 2 Karns as my only kill cards.

In fact, unless you really need it, if you want a great blocker for example, you don't play Karn early. The deck eats a lot of mana, and you don't want to waste 5 manas early to drop a useless critter. So most of the time, he stays in your hand or graveyard, waiting for the turn you want to kill. Then you drop him / weld him and swing for 20+. Even then, Karn won't attack often due to summon sickness. He'll just be there for his animate ability. And even if you need two turns for the kill, Swords won't be a problem if you manage to lock your opponent. In the worst case, you still have a second (or even a third in some builds) Karn for backup.

I really find Karn superior to Black Vise as a kill card, because Karn helps to settle the lock (eat Moxens) and can be used as a blocker. Time Vault + Black Vise are useless as long as oyu don't need them, and will only be usefull when you're already winning.

[Vegeta2711]

I really hope you guys don't use Karn's. That way I can overwhelm you easier. Guess what, even when you eat most of my permenants I can still be swinging for 3-5 a turn usally, once I know what your playing and change my style.

Karns and Trikes are the best kill conditions I've seen. Trike is mainly useful as creature removal, but are also effective kill cards. Karn is just insane, it makes all the artifacts a psudeo army which is somewhat large.

[Toast]

Quote waSP has a point about blockers.  What about other cards (maybe in
the
sideboard) like Propaganda and Tabernacle at Pendrellvale?  Against a
weenie
horde (or even a single Morphling), a Smokestack deck might be able to
get
some much-needed extra time if the opponent has to pay for their
creatures
(while under a Smokestack and/or Tangle Wire).

--Dave H.

I should get paid more to do this


EDIT to avoid double posting:

Quote Now, i know that i am talking a lot recently, but when you look over
all of
the posts, i think we are all very close to a solid build.  I agree
with
Raven that black vise is good (hear me out).  Some of us have gone back
and
forth with it, stating that it may be sub-optimal, however it is
definitely
the win-condition for Ductape 03.  

I also agree with Raven that 4-colors is inconsistent (which is why I
run 2
colors).

So, if we are trying to optimize a 'final build', why not include all
of the
win conditions from LockStock, Ductape, and Dulmen?

previously I listed what the win conditions were (see the Toast Post of
May
03 2003,05:53) along with a suggested build.

If we make one change to that U/R build, we may have something to play
test.
Here is what I propose:

4 Smokestack
4 Tanglewire
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Time Vault
1 Metalworker
1 Triskelion
1 Memory Jar
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Black Vise
(19)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Timewalk
1 Tinker
3 Meditate
1 Windfall
(8)

1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Goblin Welder
(5)

7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mana Vault
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
(28)

Sideboard (change for your meta game, but here is mine):

3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Pulse
1 Rack and Ruin
3 Blood Moon
2 Bottle Gnomes
1 Mirror Universe (see Toad's post on April 24 2003,05:13)
1 Triskelion

i think that this build covers everything we have been talking about in
the
forum, and addresses problems with the mana base along with questions
about
kill/win conditions, the mana vault, mana crypt, time vault, windfall,
meditate, 4-colors, and metalworkers.

i agree with Raven that Trade Secrets is wrong for this deck.  I
DISagree
with his choice of Chill in the sideboard (see Raven's post of April 19
2003,02:07).  Some of us may want to consider BLUE Elemental Blasts
depending on the local metagame (i haven't seen any posts regarding
BEB).

we need to start testing SOMETHING as a group, and post some reports
from
real tournaments.  I think that would help us along.

also, take a look at the most recent posting of the Dulmen tourney. GAT
took
first, Smokestack came in fifth.  the 1st place GAT deck had some
serious
artifact hate in it's sideboard.

Comments?

--Dave H.

[Fishhead]

I posted a tournament report using a build maybe two cards different from the one recommended in the thread.  Check it out; here's the link:

DuckTape in the Reports Forum

[bebe]

I know that I'm not playing much anymore and have pretty much become an observer.
But i must comment on Nachlv's assesment of the progression of the deck.
The deck wins in all its forms and that is what makes a definitive build
difficult to pinpoint. It reminds of hthe conversations I had with Marc over
Gay/Curious Fish. There is no correct build of the deck.  
I had two builds which I played. one used Meditates and blue and thre other
used Tikje vault and no blue at all. Both proved quite powerful.
I changed depending in what I expected to face.

My last blue version was recognizable a variant of Ducktape ( please let us give Psyduck
his due and being Canadian I love the name). I last modified it
in December and posted it on the German sites.I played it in numerous tournaments
and the deck was quite powerful.

Lock, Stock and Four Smoking Barrels - Dec/02

Mana Sources: 27

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
3 Island
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Mountain
Tolarian Academy
Black Lotus
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring

Lock and Kill: 29
4 Goblin Welder
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Meditate
2 Fire/Ice
2 Copy Artifact
2 Triskelion
2 Chronotog
2 Karn, Silver Golem

Restricted BS: 5
Tinker
Memory Jar
Timetwister
Ancestral Recall
Wheel of Fortune

total - 61

SB: 4 ReB
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Jester's Cap
SB: 2 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin
SB: Mirror Universe
SB: Candelabra of Tawnos
SB: Black Vise
total - 15

I removed the blue as an experiment to swee how well the deck would perform with
Time Vaults and Grafted Skullcaps. To my surprise it had an advantage - consistency
ands speed. I had one too many long games with blue in the deck. Aggro components
sped it up.  

But I did miss the blue at times.
My experience last experience with the deck makes me believe that Fire/Ice and Trisks
are not win more cards but often necessary components of the deck.Chronotog is both
blocker and finisher with the added bonus of decimating your opponents permanents.

This for me was the optimum build but I like the play style of Red/Artifact. What Psyduck
created was a template that is flexible and powerful. I've seen at least three variants that
have done well at tournaments. Ducktape will continue to show up and it will win its share
of matches.

Well, goodbye for now and i look forward to Psyduck's comments.

[Toast]

This transmission just came through from my secret contact dave:

Quote "Way to go Fishhead! 3rd out of 25 is great.  Nice report.  I had
considered
Shivan Reef as well, and considered playing one of them, but I still
feel
that 2 mountains is stronger.  

Were the Reef's better, make no difference, or were they worse?

Also, did the single Metalworker help, or was it a wasted slot?  My
playtesting shows that the Metalworker is good, but I haven't run it in
a
tourney yet.

did Black Vise do well for you?

Did the single Time Vault and three Meditate's seem like a good setup?

And, finally, what was your sideboard?

So many questions.

My Time Vault is late (ordered on eBay cuz we have no store for a 200
mile
radius that will sell cards of this type), so I am planning on playing
next
weekend.

Congrats again, and thanks for the report.

--Dave H"

[dicemanX]

The focus in this thread is on R/U Stack decks, but there hasn't been any mention of mono-brown Prison, such as the one Arthur Tindemans has run to high finishes in Eindhoven. Mono-Brown loses one key spell: Welder. However, it gains in consistency, speed, and utility from its lands.

I decided to give mono-brown Prison a try in Montreal on May 4th, with the following build (modified since to include Metalworker):

4x Smokestack
4x Tangle Wire
4x Sphere of Resistance

4x Icy Manipulator
3x Winter Orb

4x Grafted Skullcap
3x Ensnaring Bridge

3x Powder Keg
3x Karn, Silver Golem
----------------------------
32 artifacts


1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault

3x Metalworker

4x Mishra’s Workshop
3x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
3x Rishadan Port
1x Tolarian Academy
--------------------------------
28 mana sources


SB:

3x Phyrexian Processor
3x Defense Grid
3x Bottle Gnomes
2x Triskelion
2x Masticore
2x Jester’s Cap


I initially decided to forego running any Metalworkers (which I have since put back in), and as an experiment I tried to incorporate another lock into the deck: Icy Manipulators+Winter Orb, backed by Rishadan Ports. Winter Orbs are amazing with Tangle Wires too. The Icies were absolute gold in the tournament, tapping down lands, stalling opponent's creatures, or making the Winter Orb one sided. There is plenty of Mox removal in the deck (Kegs and Karns) to back up this strategy. The Bridge was the weakest card in the deck, having little impact in most games. I would consider substituting them for 3xTriskelion, to up the creature removal and increase the number of win conditions.

My SB was geared heavily towards smashing aggro decks or decks with utility creatures (like Welders in TnT or Stax), while the rest of the spots were devoted to alternate win conditions vs control: Phyrexian Processor backed by Defense Grids. Processor seems to be incredible in this deck, and can win games that would otherwise be lost to hate like Hurkyl's Recall, Pulverize, or Serenity etc.

I ended up going 4-3 (18th out of 67), although it really should have been 5-2 if it weren't for a completely dumb mistake in the final round when I had my opponent completely beat up 1-0 in games. I beat two gro decks, Suicide, and Stasis, while losing to another Stax deck (U/R, and the games were essentially over turn 1 as my opponent got great draws), and a Sligh deck that my opponent claimed was geared towards beating Stax (permanent heavy, 20 1cc creatures, Pulverize in SB). The final round was against an original B/G Mask deck running 4xNegator, 4xGrinning Demon (!), and 4xDreadnaught backed by 4xBerserk (I think).

[mrieff]

Just a quick note on Karn and StP.
With an active Welder out, you can counter the "remove from the game" part of StP. Of course, you do this by replacing Karn as a response to StP. Just to remind everybody.

If your Welder lives another turn, karn is back for some serious action.

[Fishhead]

To answer Dave's questions:

Quote Were the Reef's better, make no difference, or were they worse?

Also, did the single Metalworker help, or was it a wasted slot?  My playtesting shows that the Metalworker is good, but I haven't run it in a tourney yet.

did Black Vise do well for you?

Did the single Time Vault and three Meditate's seem like a good setup?

And, finally, what was your sideboard?

1) I was happy with the Reefs.  I didn't face much land-hate, so I didn't have a situation where they were compromised.  Obviously, Reefs are clearly better than Mountains under Blood Moon but worse against BtB or Wasteland.  Not that many people are playing BtB anymore, so it's all about how you feel about Wasteland.  I ran a fat German style mana-base so I wasn't worried about Wasteland.

2) I never got to use the Metalworker.  In the last tournament I only drew him against Sligh, so I didn't get to find out what he does there either.  Lol.

3) Black Vise was a piece of poop.  It might be a playstyle thing, but with 2 Karns and a Trike it seems you can easily attack with all your artifacts once you lock your opponent down.  I did play the Vise early once against Lime Parfait and again against Mask.  Parfait was worried about the Vise, but it turned out that the rest of my start was so explosive that the Vise was the least of his problems.  Against Mask, Ken was hovering at 4 cards so it just became Welder-food.  Not bad, a 1CC weld-able permenant, but not that great either.

I saw the ebulient Psyduck at FNM last night and talked with him a bit about the deck.  Well, actually, he talked at me about the deck, but that's another story.    Anyway, he really opposed the 2xKarn setup - he even runs without a Trike.  When talking about it, he grabbed his entire deck, waved it excitedly and said, "No! It's not about controlling the game with Trike or winning with Karn.  It's about picking up my entire deck in my hand.  I have my entire deck in my hand.  So I win."  The Vise fits that playstyle I think better.  

4) I liked the Time Vault + 3 Meditates.  There are still times where my hand clogs up with Meditates that I am not quite ready to use, but there are also times where I really wish I had one in hand.  So 3 is probably about right.  I am never sad to see the Time Vault - I could consider adding another.

5) I threw this together rather rapidly, so I wouldnt take it as gospel.  OTOH, I was never disappointed with it either, so it's at least functional:

4xReB
2xHurkyls Recall (I expected Mask and TnT)
2xDefense Grid
2xTormod's Crypt
3xFire & Ice (I expected Sligh.)
1xBottle Gnomes (I expected Sligh.)  
1xMasticore (v. general Aggro.)

Sideboarding always seems difficult with this deck, so I am not sure how many slots you can effectively devote to any matchup.  4 ReB+2 Grids is probably too much; I'll never be able to take out 6 cards against Control.  I'm open to further thoughts on this issue, definitely.

Quote The Icies were absolute gold in the tournament, tapping down lands, stalling opponent's creatures, or making the Winter Orb one sided.

Oh, this brings back some memories.  Anyone else remember Chip Hogan's original Icy/Winter Orb T1 deck?  Relic Barriers, Icies, Orb, Ernham Djinn, Mana Drain, StP and all the Power.  Good times.

[walking dude]

SOmeone mentioned the mono Brown mud builds. In my testing, MUD has a bad game one agaisnt trix whereas UR seems to own trix game one (7-3 in testing).  

Testing wiht vise, it seemed to win a lot of games very quickly. Agaisnt control and combo, a vise in the hand paired with a tangle wire or shphre won the game very time I had both. To me, that seems worth useing.

[psyduck]

its been nice with all the buzz on ducktape (i wonder why it took this long, i went over to morphling.de and typed in ducktape just to see what they were saying. too bad i dont read germanbut they do talk about ducktape alot) so ive felt inclined to make adjustments on tape 03, and to write something that actually demonstrates how to play the deck because ive been seeing alot of builds that take the tape concept but dont really "go for the gold" so to speak. me and my friend emmanuel (who has seen me working on tape since the beginning) have always joked that the deck is basically like picking up your deck and throwing it at your opponent. If you guys remember pros-bloom, the two decks actually do quite the same thing in the sense that you literally pick up your deck and throw it at your opponent. I actually think pros bloom is the only deck that can match the drawing power over ducktape. In my list of decks that do this they go like this (with speed indicated by order)

1. ducktape
2. prosbloom
3. academy
4. GAT

So ive been working on a significant tweak on tape 03 design  plus some kind of real primer since ive been asked before to actually write something concerning it.

ive also decided to rewite the list and section it according to utility as to make it clear whats what because people get confused when they see a decklist but its not partiioned by utility.

here's a small preview of it
 
   - careful study
   - trade secrets
   - frantic search

ill talk to zherb and get a ducktape primer going on the articles section hopefully.

[Toast]

Quote Psyduck:  the deck we are tweaking here is not the same as Ducktape, although they share a single, similar kill method (decking, and possibly Vise).  Toast is doing fine on the primer for the deck we are playing.  If you are going to write a primer about Ducktape, i think that's great, but much of it wont apply to strategies that utilize Karn and/or Juggernaut.  Personally, i would love to see an article on how you play Ducktape, but that article/primer will get merged into the bigger picture.
 
regarding Trade Secrets, it appears to be suboptimal because of the UU in the casting cost and the fact that it gives your opponent cards.  I quote Toast:
 
"double blue is difficult to come by and this card is very ugly if your opponent has any sort of maindeck hoser game 1 and in all situations where your opponent has a sideboard that is prepared for you games 2 and 3. If they don't, its nice card advantage."
 
--Dave H.

[AliBaba]

Quote its been nice with all the buzz on ducktape (i wonder why it took this long

Please don't take this the wrong way as it is not meant to be derogatory in any way.  The lack of "buzz" may have been partially self inflicted, as well as the lack of acceptance of the name "Ducktape".  I think this namely accurately describes what the deck does.  One can only hope others can get over their denial about the name.  Stax, lock, etc. are all weak in comparison.  

Quote here's a small preview of it

  - careful study
  - trade secrets
  - frantic search

Duck:  I cut the 4th meditate for frantic search a long time ago.  It has proven itself quite useful during the critical early stages.  I am somewhat leery of sorceries because they are not useful during upkeep.

Ali

[Fever]

Since this thread is supposed to be about finding the best possible build of Stax(if thats possible), i thought i would post my list for critique. Its definetly a more controllish build than i originally started out with but i feel that is the best way to play the deck.


//NAME: Prison

        2 Fire/Ice        
        1 Tinker
        1 Timetwister
        1 Time Walk
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
        3 Meditate
        1 Time Vault
        1 Memory Jar
        4 Smokestack
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Goblin Welder
        2 Triskelion       
        2 Karn, Silver Golem
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Ancient Tomb
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Shivan Reef
        4 Volcanic Island
        6 Island

SB:  3 Blood Moon
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Defense Grid


EDIT: I changed the name of the deck, so as not to offend anyone. Also, i modified my decklist, after a little playtesting and some goldfishing.\n\n

[psyduck]

Id like if people start referring to ducktape as Ducktape, not stax (misnaming by smennen b4 he realized the dulmen "stax" were actually ducktape, as confirmed on morphling.de, all the germans are calling it ducktape), nor LockStock (westredale and friends wanting to make a deck similar to ducktape after i showed tape to them), nor anything else.

Thanks. no big deal over this.

Ducktapes maker, Psyduck.

p.s the only reason why people started calling it stax is because there were alot of people that were new and didnt realize what ducktape was, until smennen started calling it stax (but we talked a few times afterwards, he apologized or something to that effect.)

[Fever]

Nobody is denying your role in creating the deck Psyduck, however people are free to call it whatever they want. I mean, if i want to call my version of the deck "artifacthell.dec" i think i have that right. Its not taking anything away from what you did, i just like shorter names. Also, you have to be able to recognize that evolutions of one concept can be considered different decks.

[Piggy]

I always try to respect people who create new viable decks because, well, I haven't yet, but Psyduck chill out.  Pretty much all the regulars know that you designed the original version of it, so what the hell is the difference if they call it what they like?  All I am saying is be happy that they value your deck highly enough to talk about it in the first place.

[Toast]

Quote ok, cool.  lets get back to the subject then.
 
Fever, i've been testing a version with 2 blood moons main, cutting my Black Vise and my Metalworker.  I think 3 is the right number main deck if you're going to run them.  
 
Fishhead, i ran 30 games against GAT over the past few days (both with and without sideboard).  GAT is such a good deck.  Really inspiring.  Anyway, i found the Black Vise coming up several times, and it was sub-optimal, as you described.  It's funny to hear myself say this, but it was too slow in making the kill!  I kept looking at my Vise as it dealt 3, then 2, then 1 against GAT, and then Tog came over and hit me for 42 points.  Hurkyll's Recall against Stax/DuckTape really hurts too. Main deck REB could be helpful, but i am leaning toward 3 blood moons.
 
As for the Metalworker, he wasn't coming up fast enough to make a difference.  I kept wishing i had a blood moon in hand, or an Ankh, or even a stupid Meekstone---ANYTHING else (i'm not running Meekstones anywhere--i only use it here as an example).  
 
Psyduck, Frantic Search looks good.  It has great synergy with this deck.
 
I'm looking for a way to hose creatures (specifically in GAT). I don't like Ensnaring Bridge because i want to have lots of cards in my hand (like Psyduck says: "I have my whole deck in my hand, so i win!").  Some of you are running Maze of Ith, and others are running Icy Manipulator.  Also, Ankh of Mishra could work well to help lock things down (no more fetch lands and no more gush without paying for it dearly!). We run Timetwister, so why not Time Spiral?  
 
I'd like to hear thoughts about those, if you guys dont mind.
 
--Dave H.

P.S. duck just because you were the first / one of the first people to become truely successful with a smokestack lock style deck doesn't mean you have copywrite over all decks that use smokestack and therefore they must conform to your name, there are key differences between your deck and all others and just because they share a core with ducktape doesn't mean that they are ducktape.

[Fever]

Actually, although i really loved the Blood Moon idea at first, it wasnt as great in practice. Of course they hurt your main opponents, which i like, but its not an artifact and it also hurts your own mana. For now, i am going with a pair of Fire/Ice in that slot. I have found the ability to tap a permanent and cantrip to have nice synergy with the rest of the deck.

Also, about Triskelion. When i had only one in the deck i never seemed to have it when i needed it, which led me to cut it entirely-which was a mistake. After playing without one, i realized that what i needed was a second one maindeck. You rarely want to use a Tinker on Trisk, so i feel having two is necessary. Im sure this is dependant on playstyle, but i am happy with it, and it makes killing someone with Trisk recursion much easier.

[Hanzalot]

Dave said:

Quote I'm looking for a way to hose creatures (specifically in GAT). I don't like Ensnaring Bridge because i want to have lots of cards in my hand (like Psyduck says: "I have my whole deck in my hand, so i win!").  Some of you are running Maze of Ith, and others are running Icy Manipulator

What about Forcefield? I can't remember who, but I think someone posted a list with it here at TMD. Perhaps he could enlighten us on its usefulness...

[Fishhead]

Quote Fishhead, i ran 30 games against GAT over the past few days (both with and without sideboard).  GAT is such a good deck.  Really inspiring.  Anyway, i found the Black Vise coming up several times, and it was sub-optimal, as you described.  It's funny to hear myself say this, but it was too slow in making the kill!  I kept looking at my Vise as it dealt 3, then 2, then 1 against GAT, and then Tog came over and hit me for 42 points.  Hurkyll's Recall against Stax/DuckTape really hurts too. Main deck REB could be helpful, but i am leaning toward 3 blood moons.

How did you find the matchup to be?  I find that DuckTape has a serious advantage over GroTog; they can't stop all your stuff unless they get a crazy draw and you get a bad one.  Sometimes they can just go Fastbond nuts and win, but I think most decks lose to the GroTog-Fastbond start.  

A good SB changes things a bit; Hurkylls Recall is a pain.  Still, they have to get to 2 mana to cast it, and they have a limited window to do it.  If I eat one land with SmokeStack its already getting too late to stop the hurting.  A resolved Tangle Wire will hold them down for about 4 turns!  Thats a lot of time to break through the FoW wall.

If I had to put a number on it, I would say 75% for DuckTape.

Quote As for the Metalworker, he wasn't coming up fast enough to make a difference.  I kept wishing i had a blood moon in hand, or an Ankh, or even a stupid Meekstone---ANYTHING else (i'm not running Meekstones anywhere--i only use it here as an example).  

The Metalworker is definitely on the "watch list" for me.  And, btw, I did think about Meekstones.

Thinking about it again, someone was asking for tech against Sligh.  Wouldnt Caltrops do a number on them?  So many good artifacts here; Keg is maybe the most generically useful.  I can definitely see the Metalworker slot as a "free" slot, put whatever fun card you want in it.  

Hanzalot's suggestion of Forcefield is also interesting, though I did once watch a GroTog player peck someone to death 1 point at a time with 'Togs.  His opponent had Chains of Mephistopheles and Planar Void on the board, but the Tog player had control.  Thats the problem; Forcefield only buys you time, so its only useful in certain types of games.  

I would like to have a deck I could play both Time Vault and Forcefield in though simultaneously.  How old-school is that!?  

Quote We run Timetwister, so why not Time Spiral?  

My thought here is that we never can get the 6 mana to cast it.  Trikes are possible due to Workshop, but Time Spiral has some serious non-synergy with the Spheres and the fact that your deck likes to destroy permenants.

[Toast]

Quote
Fever:
i agree that the blood moons need to stay in the sideboard.  Fire/Ice
in the
main is interesting.  For my testing against GAT last week,  I didn't
use
them, but I may put one in my sideboard (I used Waterfront Bouncer
instead).
A second Trisk main deck is definitely an  option, especially in the
questionable slot I've been using for Metalworker (although I am
planning on
putting in a Forcefield).

Hanzalot:
The more I think about Forcefield, the more I like it. I'm going to buy
one.
There have been comments about it, and it looks like a  great option.

Fishhead:
I won 17 out of 30.  Thats 56.7%, but it was against a good GAT player
(I
think I'm qualified to determine if the guy is good.  Check my  rating
if
you question this [I'm #2 in San Diego and #19 in California for
Vintage]).
GAT has a lot of ways to get what it needs, and in  the hands of a good
player who is experienced with the deck, it's just nasty.  Playtesting
went
like this:

1st game, No Sideboard. I win.
2nd game, Sideboarded. GAT wins.
3rd game, Sideboarded. I win.

1st game, No Sideboard. I win.
2nd game, Sideboarded. GAT wins.
3rd game, Sideboarded. GAT wins.

Then, I win, I win, You win, I win, You win.  Etcetera.  Bouncer helped
a
lot, but I think Forcefield will work better (and more  consistently--I
dont
like throwing cards away). It can give us the extra time we need to get
our
lock down secured.  

Here's something new(?) to consider: people put down Arcane Denial, but
it
was a great card in a couple of major decks. For instance, 5CG  and
Turbo-Stasis used it successfully.  In the Stasis deck, the opponent
couldn't do anything, so the extra cards, coupled with the  counter
ability
for 1U made it an awesome part of the strategy. A Smokestack deck is
similar, and **may** be able to successfully  implement one or two
Arcane
Denial's, where other decks fail to do so.  I'm very cautious about
Arcane
Denial, but I prefer absolute  countering ability over Mana
Leak/Daze/etc.
It might work in this deck, though I dont know if one or two is enough
to
make any  difference.  I'm just throwing this out there as food for
thought.

As for Caltrops, I ran them in my Board for a while.  They're fantastic
against Sligh, Stompy, Elf, and others.  I love the fact that it  works
against creatures with flying (what were they thinking!?). I just don't
believe that they're strong enough against enough decks in  the
Metagame, so
I don't use them anymore.

Here is another card to consider: Energy Field ("Prevent all damage
that
would be dealt to you by sources you don't control. ; When a  card is
put
into your graveyard, sacrifice ~this~. [Oracle 1999/05/01]).  This
might be
useless until the lock (and even then, I'm not  sure about it, because
we
would already be winning), but then it is King against stupid
randomness.

As for my version of this deck (below), I really like the Scroll Rack,
especially with the Fetch Lands. Sometimes, it's like a Brainstorm  for
6
cards.

Here is what I ran (and will probably continue to run):

Smokestack_Remix

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Vault
1 Scroll Rack
(15)

2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
(3)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
3 Meditate
1 Tinker
1 Waterfront Bouncer (this will be a Forcefield)
(9)

1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Goblin Welder
(5)

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
1 Tolarian Academy
(28)
(60)

Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
2 Shattering Pulse
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Mirror Universe
2 Bottle Gnomes
1 Triskelion

I apologize for responding late, but without an account I am unable to
post
instantly.  It's unfair to Toast to have to worry about his  own stuff
while
playing cabin-boy for me, so I'm trying to make only occasional
(substantive) responses.

--Dave H.

[Smmenen]

Energy Field?  Arcane Denial?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

Dude, I'd rather just have REBs in the main.

Steve\n\n

[Toast]

Quote

Hi Steve. I dont know how long you have been playing Magic, so I dont
know
if you remember the Turbo-Stasis Deck or 5C-Green.  It was also used in
some
championship decks several years ago (it was a U/B/w build that i cant
remember exactly), and that deck played only one of them.  Arcane
Denial
WORKS in those decks.  Arcane has it's place in certain T1 constructs,
and
not just in poorly built decks.

I've never used Energy Field, but it does appear to have some synergy
with
Ducktape and other Smokestack based deck types.

My point was to suggest cards that are out of the norm, but that
**might**
have a place here.  I believe that if we can find something that works
**here**, **specifically** (and not necessarily anywhere else), then we
are
better off than the rest of the field.

Were you around when people thought that Juzam Djinn was a piece of
trash
because he hurt you???  they were selling in the $0.25 bin until
somebody
figured out that Juzam killed the opponent before he killed you.

I believe that (sometimes) we need to think outside of "the box" in
order to
make a new deck-type work.  That means drawing from old school as well
as
new until we have exhausted all of our options, and come to a final
build.

REB is definitely an option in the main, but it will never replace the
pure
power of being able to say "NO" to (almost) anything.

Please post more substantive comments, because I can tell from your
previous
posts that you know what you are talking about, and I want to hear what
you
have to say.

--Dave H.
response to Smmenen:

Hi Steve. I dont know how long you have been playing Magic, so I dont
know
if you remember the Turbo-Stasis Deck or 5C-Green.  It was also used in
some
championship decks several years ago (it was a U/B/w build that i cant
remember exactly), and that deck played only one of them.  Arcane
Denial
WORKS in those decks.  Arcane has it's place in certain T1 constructs,
and
not just in poorly built decks.

I've never used Energy Field, but it does appear to have some synergy
with
Ducktape and other Smokestack based deck types.

My point was to suggest cards that are out of the norm, but that
**might**
have a place here.  I believe that if we can find something that works
**here**, **specifically** (and not necessarily anywhere else), then we
are
better off than the rest of the field.

Were you around when people thought that Juzam Djinn was a piece of
trash
because he hurt you???  they were selling in the $0.25 bin until
somebody
figured out that Juzam killed the opponent before he killed you.

I believe that (sometimes) we need to think outside of "the box" in
order to
make a new deck-type work.  That means drawing from old school as well
as
new until we have exhausted all of our options, and come to a final
build.

REB is definitely an option in the main, but it will never replace the
pure
power of being able to say "NO" to (almost) anything.

Please post more substantive comments, because I can tell from your
previous
posts that you know what you are talking about, and I want to hear what
you
have to say.

--Dave H.

[Rico Suave]

No, Arcane Denial is complete and utter trash.

Given the mana-denial aspect of this deck, Mana Leak is more effective than normal.  It basically is a hard-counter, assuming you'd want non-REB counters maindeck.

As for Energy Field, well, "I've never used Energy Field" should sum that up.

[ScaldMonger]

Ok, In light of the new restrictions, does this deck have a place in the format anymore? The last tourny I went to with it, I played against 1 GAT deck and still came in 3rd out of 20 or so. I think that even with GAT being driven out of the meta, the deck can function very well, beating on other random decks.
I know a bunch of the Keeper players over there on the Paragon Keeper Thread, have already began speculating on what the field is going to look like in a few weeks. I'm not sure I know what changes should be made to Ducktape, or other Smokestack based decks, but it feels like the tightness of the deck would not allow for too many changes to be made. One obvious change I will make is the removal of Forcefield from the MD, but other than that, what is everyone's thoughts on where this deck, and others like it should go?

[Fever]

The deck is just as broken as ever, that fact will not change. However, it was widely regarded as the anti-GAT deck, so with GAT dead the number of ppl playing it will fall dramatically. However, this can be very good for Stax players, because it means ppl will remove some of their Stax hate from their sideboards.