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Author Topic: Fever Mask  (Read 26044 times)
Fever
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« on: June 04, 2003, 10:58:08 am »

Mask decks have been a favorite of mine for a long time. Their ability to pump out huge 12/12 tramplers on the first or second turn appeals to the Timmy inside me i guess. The recent restriction of Gush, thereby killing GAT, has opened the door for another aggro-control deck to take its place. Now, while i dont claim that this deck is as good as GAT was(thank goodness), it is deceptively strong. Here is the deck:


Fever Mask

Spells (25)
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress
4 Illusionary Mask

Creatures (12)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Skittering Horror
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Mana (23)
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Recoil
4 Smother
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Misdirection
4 Back to Basics

Now, before i go on, i must give out major props to Ed Paltzik(Legend) for helping me refine this deck. His suggestions where key, and even though i know he doesnt want to take any credit, i am going to give some to him anyway.

I wont go into boring, card-by-card analysis of the deck, because most of the choices should be obvious to most of you. Instead, i will briefly go into some of my card choices.

1) Lim-Dul's Vault
Vault is just superior to Pact in most aspects, the only exception being the unfortunate card-disadvantage. Still, i have played Mask versions with both cards, and i really like the Vault better than Tainted Pact, although im sure some will disagree.

2) Shadowmage Infiltrator
Finkel takes the spot normally occupied by Hypnotic Specter. While Hippie will remain one of my favs, i have to admit that i much rather draw cards than force my opponent to discard them. Also, it goes without saying that the Infiltrator is much better mid-game, where your opponent's hand is rather empty.

3) Brainstorm
Wow. This card is so good in this deck i dont even know where to begin, it truly shines. With 7 fetch lands, 4 Vaults and Demonic/Vamp, i always have a shuffle effect when i need it. It lets me run a lower mana count (23), which is crucial in this type of deck. Also, it is great in combination with Vault, often setting up some really broken plays.

4) Force of Will
I really dont need to explain this card at all, as it is a staple in every blue deck. However, i just wanted to point out how much more i like this compared to Cabal Therapy/Hymn to Tourach. The ability to "just say no" to any unexpected surprise is especially important in this type of deck.

I think that covers the most interesting differences between my build and most others, so i would like to open this up to discussion.
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ScaldMonger
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2003, 04:51:31 pm »

I actually was considering revamping my Mask deck as well. I had always liked the idea of the Vaults, and when I had the Pacts in the old version, I always hated them. The Finkel in place of Hippy is genious, I think that's exactly what the deck needed, a better mid-game. If the Naught plan craps out...you at least can go look for more answers with the Finkel.

I'll put this deck together over the weekend and I'll let you know how it fairs.
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Diablos8
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2003, 05:02:23 pm »

I'm really interested why you chose Finkel over Ophidian. The only reason I see you running Finkel over Ophidian is because it will actually deal damage. Ophidian has the more usable casting cost(without Mask). Besides, the only decks that will have creatures during the early game(to my knowledge atleast) are  the Mirror, TnT, Suicide Black, Sligh, WW, and FEB/Vengue Masque, 3 of those deck which don't have a huge amount of play(Sligh, WW, FEB, assuming this is for a heavy powered metagame) and vs. TnT and Suicide Black, finkel will be blocked anyway.
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Fever
Guest
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2003, 06:06:21 pm »

@ScaldMonger
Thanks a lot, i am glad you like the deck. I am also very happy to hear that you are going to put it together. Because of my financial situation, i am unable to build this deck in real life, so my hope was that someone else could. I wish you good luck, and eagerly await your results.

@Diablos8
That is a good question. I always favor Phid over Finkel normally, because the decks that run them have Mana Drain, which makes a big difference. However, this deck does not run Drains, so the only time i might wish it was a Phid is when i get a double off-color Mox draw(which is rare). Also, you have to realize that this is not a control deck, and that every point of damage counts, although i obviously dont rely on the Infiltrator to do most of my damage. Lastly, there is the evasion, and i dont think this point should be downplayed. Of course there are matchups where it doesnt matter such as TNT or Suicide, but most of the time i am happy that my Finkel cant be blocked by Morphling and company. So basically, it comes down to not running Drains, but you can certainly make the switch if you feel like it, as both cards are fucntionally the same.\n\n

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Legend
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2003, 08:30:00 pm »

Thanks for the kind words Brian, you have a very nice deck here and I am glad I could be of assistance. This is a really solid deck, good work.
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Milton
Guest
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2003, 09:14:24 pm »

Very interesting.  I have come to some very simmilar conclusions but I would like to get your rationale for a few card choices.

1. Why no Dark Rituals?

2. Why seven Fetchlands instead of 4 or 5?  

3. What are your thoughts on Timetwister in this deck?

4. In what situations would you side in the Misdirections?

5. How reliable is Force of Will in a deck that usually has you dumping cards to play early threats?  Has a lack of a blue pitch card for the Force in the mid game been a problem?

6. A more general question: I have been playing Mask for about a month now and I'm frusterated with my creatures getting Somthered.  Is there a good 4 casting cost creature or a good pro-black creature that would be a good foil to Smother?  I have a few ideas, but I would be interested to hear what you think.

Thanks
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ScaldMonger
Guest
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2003, 09:32:05 pm »

If Fever doesn't mind, I actually can answer a few of these questions as I have also played mask frequently for the last few months.

Quote
Quote Why seven Fetchlands instead of 4 or 5?  
My initial reaction to the amount of fetches was their interaction with brainstorm, lim-duls and the thinning of the deck to make your way to your business cards.

Quote
Quote   Is there a good 4 casting cost creature or a good pro-black creature that would be a good foil to Smother?
I know awile ago someone mentioned Grinning Demon as an alternative...

Quote
Quote What are your thoughts on Timetwister in this deck?

Personally I don't like the symmetrical feature of the TimeTwister in a deck like this. Most of the time your going to attempt to search your way through to the stuff you need, while duressing and FOWing your opponents attempts at stopping you. Twister just allows you a second chance at things in your graveyard, while at the same time allowing your opponent to regain his failed attempts to stop you. Personally I think the deck needs to focus on the combo more than the replenishing of resources. You always have Yawg Win incase of emergency.
 
Quote
Quote 5. How reliable is Force of Will in a deck that usually has you dumping cards to play early threats?  Has a lack of a blue pitch card for the Force in the mid game been a problem?

Looking at this list I too wonder if there's enough blue. You have to assume that your goin to be able to ditch a Finkle or two if needed, along with extra FOW, Lim-Duls, and Brainstorms. It looks as if there is just enough pitchability in the deck for the FOW to be effective. Only testing will surely tell.

The lack of rituals looks like a blatent attempt to minimize the deadness of its nature outside of a heavy black build of this deck. What are you going to be ritualing for? Duress, Yawg Will, Mask-Creatures. If you have the Mask, or Creatures, you most likely will be able to lay them without the boost. This build is more controlish then its ancestors. The Rituals would just add to the clutter of possible useless cards that were originally in the dek.
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2003, 09:57:46 pm »

One of the reasons I don't use Timetwister in any of my decks is because things like Mask totally abuse it more than any of the decks I play.  The only deck I can think of which abuses it more is Academy.

As for Shadowmage: both require blue mana, and this deck pretty much always has black mana.  I don't see the cc being difficult at all.

Fever, is there a point to running 2 Horror and 2 Negator?  Normally I wouldn't expect you to do this, but don't you think one is better than the other, and you should use 4 of the better one before using the inferior one?
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Fever
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2003, 09:59:58 pm »

I would like to thank ScaldMonger for addressing some of those points, and doing a good job too. However, i will still reply to Milton's points, just to clarify.

1) Dark Ritual
Basically, there are too many blue cards in the deck to really use Ritual to its fullest. Also, as Monger said, i am going for the most stable build possible, trying to maximise every slot. With a full set of jewelery, its not like the deck is sluggish.

2) Fetch Lands
I run 7 because of all the great interactions they have in this deck. They make my mana rock solid, i really never get color-screwed at all with this deck. They interact extremely well with Vault and Brainstorm, and of course they thin my deck, improving my draws. I could see going down to 6, but theres no reason.

3) Timetwister
I rarely like Twister outside of combo decks, and i would really hate for my opponent to draw into an answer for my Nought. Of course there are situations where its great, but not enough that i want it maindeck.

4) Misdirection
I would side in Misdirection against Sligh, Suicide, and Ophidian. Pretty much any deck that has juicy targets for it. However, i would not bring it in vs Keeper, because i will be unable to misdirect Plows.

5) Force of Will
I am running 18 blue cards, which is the minimum amount of blue cards needed to run FoW in my opinion. I have no problem pitching any blue card short of Ancestral. Finkel, Vault, Brainstorm, an other Force, all are easily pitched. It is true that by mid-game i rarely have extra blue cards to pitch, but as we all know FoW shines in the first few turns. If i reach the mid-game without having needed to pitch anything to FoW, then i think i am in good shape. Also, though this deck has a deceptively low mana count, it can reach 5 mana fairly easily. Without question, i would like to have two more blue cards in there, just to feel safe, but i just cant cut any of the black cards.

6) Smother
I wish i could help you, but that card will continue to be a problem for this deck, much like Swords to Plowshares. Try to Duress them away first, or Force them when they cast it, and hope they cant counter back.


Good questions, i hope i have answered them to your satisfaction. Please do not hesitate to inquire further should you feel the need.
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Fever
Guest
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2003, 10:06:15 pm »

@Rico

A good question, but obviously i have some reasoning other than to try and confuse my opponents  

The main reason for the 2/2 split of Negator and Horror is my metagame expectations. I am not speaking of my personal metagame, but the general Vintage environment. With GAT taking a back seat, i fully expect budget aggro to make a comeback. This only adds to the number of matchups where Negator is less than stellar. If you play in a heavy control/combo meta, then 4 Negators main should be standard, but i do keep the other two in the sideboard as you can see.

The reason you cant really run 4 Horrors is that, without a Mask in play, the drawback can be prohibitive. However, with only a pair in the deck, your chances of drawing into both of them before you see a Mask are quite low. Horrors are much better than Negators vs all types of aggro, while still being solid 4/3 beatsticks against control.

I hope this answers your question.
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doublej20
Guest
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2003, 02:13:17 am »

I've got some recommendations for you to improve the deck. First, Skittering Horror and Phyrexian Negator are still mediocre at best in this metagame, and I think Hypnotic Specters would serve much more in terms of disruption and card advantage. I would jettison the Negators to the sideboard for control matchups solely.

Second, I would replace the Lim-Dul's Vaults with Impulse instead. While it doesn't have the nice synergy with Brainstorm and fetchlands that Lim-Dul's Vault does, Impulse replaces itself (and therefor is not card disadvantage like Vault), and it digs nearly as deep as either Tainted Pact or Lim-Dul's Vault, while still being at instant speed (not to mention it's casting cost of 1 blue and a colorless is barely at an advantage over the 1 blue and 1 black mana requirement of Lim-Dul's Vault).

Good choice on the Shadowmages over Ophidian, by the way. It's evasion abilities are very important when you want to draw that extra card, and it's worth a slightly more difficult casting cost.

This is very similar to a deck I had made a month or so back. One other thing is, why no Necropotence and Fact or Fiction? Do you feel the 3 black mana will be too hard to come by, or that is it just not neccessary? I never seemed to have 3 black, but Fact or Fiction is just too good to pass up in my opinion.

This is the version I made a little while back:
Mask, the BU JACO REMIX
Spells (27)
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
3 Impulse
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Smother
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Illusionary Mask

Creatures (11)
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Mana Sources (23)
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2 Recoil
4 Energy Flux
3 Phyrexian Negator
1 Misdirection
1 Chainer’s Edict
4 Back to Basics

EDIT: I'm aware that Energy Flux isn't great synergy with my own artifacts, but I'll usually have enough mana to pay for 1-2 and it is devastating against TnT and Ducktape, so I have chosen to play it in the board (still testing).
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Zharradan
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2003, 02:48:58 am »

I like the Lim-Dul's Vault. The card disadvantage isn't too bad, since this is a more controlling deck you can afford to wait and vault on your opponent's EOT rather than the "must-get-combo-now!" CF-flavoured Mask aggro combo decks.
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Fever
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2003, 07:01:38 am »

The Negators and Horrors should not be replaced by Hippies for a few reasons. First, we need alternate win conditions in case the Dreadnought plan fails, Hippies do not beat down hard enough to really be considered in this way. I think the deck can support 4 card-advantage dudes, and i feel that the Finkels are a stronger choice. Negators and Horrors provide that added punch that the deck sometimes need, a quick 4-5 turn clock that must be dealt with right away. Also, you have to consider that Hippies are at their best in the early game, which is why you want to get them out as fast as possible. Now, my deck doesnt have too much trouble with BB, but there are no Rituals, so no chance of a first turn Specter. Again, its not that the Specters are bad in any way, its just that their slot is already filled.

As for Impulse, i did in fact consider it when building the deck. The problem is, its not really a tutor, its a search card. Vault will get me the exact card i want, as long as i am willing to pay a little life, but i usually dont have to lose much because i am looking for 4-ofs. In fact, i cant remember paying more than 3 life to the Vault during my testing, although im sure it might happen occasionally. I understand where you are coming from, and nobody likes card-disadvantage, but i think that if you playtest with both, you will come to appreciate the Vault.

Zharradan also made a good point. Plus, with Finkels and Brainstorm in the deck, i can often play Vault during my turn and draw into the card i needed.

I encourage anyone interested in the deck to at least proxy it up, to get a feel for the way it plays. I understand some of the card choices look odd at first glance, but they just feel right when playing the deck.\n\n

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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2003, 08:03:13 am »

Quote
Quote Is there a good 4 casting cost creature or a good pro-black creature that would be a good foil to Smother

I've seen Lord of Tresserhorn (see legend's avatar) in some builds; he seems like the most explosive.

Quote
Quote What are your thoughts on Timetwister in this deck?

Rico is dead on.  Mask is at its best in the early game, why?  Because it has a fresh hand.  I'm not sure if this still applies when you're running FoW's over disruption, but we'll assume we can't change your mind about running a heavier commitment to black.  This effect is lessened if your creatures have been swords'd, but thems are the breaks.

Quote
Quote Impulse replaces itself (and therefor is not card disadvantage like Vault), and it digs nearly as deep as either Tainted Pact or Lim-Dul's Vault

Hmm, no, I'm sorry, thats completely incorrect.  Lim-Dul can scour your entire library, and pact (with a good build) can easily go 5-10 deep.  I can understand that sometimes you just get shit luck with pact, but lim dul is a sure thing.

I do agree that with 4x vault, 4x FoW (which you will rarely be able to hard cast) and vampiric, there is too much card disadvantage.  However, since you've reduced the mana intensity and increased the card draw it may make up for it.  I still think mask was dangerous because of its speed (which your build doesn't have), but it'll be interesting to see if this more control-ish version is competitive.
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Zharradan
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2003, 09:17:11 am »

Did you consider if Demonic Consultation would fit when you were building/testing, Fever? All the things you want to search for are 4-of's..
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Fever
Guest
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2003, 10:20:06 am »

@Zharradan
I did consider Demonic Consultation when i put this deck together. However, i have a very bad history with that card, and i have basically resigned never to play it unless it is absolutely necessary. If you are one of the many who enjoy gambling, and who have great luck Consulting, then by all means try it.


@Grand Inquisitor
Hey man, thanks for adding to the thread. You are correct about Vault, there just is no viable replacement for them, because no other unrestricted card has the same tutoring power.

As for the card disadvantage of Vault + FoW, i havent really felt it was a problem. Vault usually fetches someting game-breaking, so you dont mind losing a draw for it. Its a similar deal with FoW, although you are pitching a valuable card, you are most likely countering something which could kill you. Its not that i havent considered other alternatives, indeed i have, here is a brief rundown:

-Hymn to Tourach
A very powerful card, no question, but it doesnt fit in with the curve of this deck. At two mana, i usually want to be dropping a Mask or tutoring/searching for one. Also, the chance of Misdirection(though much reduced) is frightning.

-Unmask
Same pros and cons as Force of Will, except clearly inferior. It was never really in consideration as it just doesnt cut it.

-Cabal Therapy
I like this card, more than most even. I love that its one mana, and i love that it can hit multiple cards. However, this is not a deck where you really want to be sacrificing creatures, so the flashback might as well not exist. Without the flashback, this card is marginal unless played immediately after Duress.

-Counterspell
Altough this deck can attain UU by the second turn, its not very likely, and you need black mana for most of your spells anyway. By the time i have UU just sitting there, the game is usually decided one way or another.

-Mana Leak
The mana cost is much easier than Counterspell, and i really would never have problems casting this. The problem is, i really want to be tapping out during the first 2-3 turns, which is when this card is most effective. Not bad, but not good enough either.


EDIT:

I also wanted to add that, despite the lack of Ritual, this deck really isnt slow. All of my spells are between one and three mana, such a low curve, coupled with jewelery, does not make for a slow deck. It might not be as quick as Tainted Mask, but not by much.\n\n

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Rico Suave
Guest
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2003, 05:07:24 pm »

Quote from: Fever+June 04 2003,19:59
Quote (Fever @ June 04 2003,19:59)3) Timetwister
I rarely like Twister outside of combo decks, and i would really hate for my opponent to draw into an answer for my Nought. Of course there are situations where its great, but not enough that i want it maindeck.
Well, Mask IS a combo deck.  Even then, why would you need to cast Twister with a Dreadnought on the table?  Timetwister is for those times you aren't winning, but need to recover.  

Consult is huge.  It's even better here than it is in Tainted Mask.  I'd find it ironic that you feel comfortable with Mask but don't feel comfortable with Consult, they are perfect for each other.

Anyway, about the creature choices: if Negator is not good enough to run 4-of because the environment in general is too aggressive, then perhaps you shouldn't run any at all.
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Milton
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2003, 05:52:36 pm »

Why no Mystical Tutor?  In my mask build I use it mostly to fetch Yag Will.  It gets Ancesteral, Walk and Demonic in a pinch.  Phenomonal card.  It's exclusion from your deck clearly wan't an oversight, but what is your logic for omiting Mystical?
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-CF-
Guest
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2003, 08:00:44 pm »

Mystical would be sort of redundant on top of 4 Vaults. Consultation, however, is NUTS. Put your history with the card aside - math and rationality demands it in the deck.

--
Chris
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Os-Vegeta
Guest
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2003, 08:44:34 pm »

Fever,

This is looking like a very, very good deck!  I really like it, and I'm in agreement with a lot of your card choices.  Now that you can afford the card disadvantage again, Lim Dul's Vault looks sweet.  Combine that with a Brainstorm in hand, and you really have a nice thing going for yourself.  

Though I'm no fan of Skittering Horror, I see exactly where you're coming from when you're including two Horrors maindeck.  Though they and the 2 Negators are alternate win conditions, I see the Horrors being very useful for some stall time against TnT if needed.

I'm undecided on Vampiric Tutor.  I know you can afford the card disadvantage, especially with Brainstorm and Finkels, but Demonic Consultation in that slot looks like a good option as well.  I can see why you wouldn't want to play with Consultation, especially if you have bad luck with it, but sometimes it could just win you games.  My only question would be as to whether or not it wins you games you would not already be winning.  If the answer is yes, then I'd go with Consultation.  Otherwise, I'm fine with Vampiric Tutor.  

Overall, this is one of the best Mask builds I have ever seen.  I'm really impressed and delighted to see a deck like this.
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Milton
Guest
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2003, 09:21:36 pm »

I tested the original Fever build for a few hours today.  It worked great against almost everything, but it was seriously lacking against Ankh Sligh.  Barring a huge early turn, it was impossible for me to establish with the Infiltrator.  The Horror and Negator were awful.  In cases when I was able to get out a Dreadnaught it usually worked well, but Rack and Ruin out of the sideboard for Sligh was too much to overcome.  Also, this build can really hurt itself quickly, with Fetchlands, Valuts, Vampiric.  Taking four or five damage from yourself isn't uncommen and every point counts against Sligh.

It worked well against Keeper.  The Infiltrators were a much better threat than the Hyppies.  Usually, with Brainstorm, Hyppie wasn't as much of a threat.  But Infiltrator puts Keeper on a real clock.

Against Gro, the Force of Wills were nice and, combined with Duress, were usually able to buy a turn or two.  A couple of times they were able to apply a huge beatdown, but I think a couple of Royal Assassins in the board are a good option.  Smother was a huge problem again.  Overall, though, I went 50/50 agaisnt current TogGro with four Gushes.

My findings:

-I found that 12 creatures were too many.  I settled on 10, four Naughts, four Finkels and two Masticore (which has tremendous synergy with Finkel).  Masticore gave me the four casting cost anti-Smother creature and improved the Sligh match-up.  Negators and Horrors were not good, keeping in mind my metagame.

-Recoil was sooooo good in a few match-ups that I added two maindeck, which proved invaluable against TnT and helped greatly against Ankh Sligh.  I would love to fit in a third.

-Also, four Vaults were too many.  I dropped two and inserted a Mystical and a Merchant Scroll.  Vault simply sucked in multiples.  Two feels right so far.  Mystical usually gets me Ancestral, Time Walk or Yag Will.  Merchant Scroll gets me the Ancestral, a Brainstorm (which is as good as an Ancestral in the mid game with dead lands in hand), a Force of Will or a Recoil.

-I cut a Fetchland for another Underground.  Seven fetchlands was a little heavy.  Six seems just right for me.

-Also, of course, I altered the board significantly to adjust for my metagame.
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Fever
Guest
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2003, 10:07:32 pm »

Alright, lots to respond to, where to start...

-Demonic Consultation
I remember when i said that i didnt like it in Suicide, everyone gave me shit and told me i didnt know what i was doing. Now, hardly anyone runs it, and its widely accepted. I will not run it, but again, you can if you want.


@Milton
Im glad you liked the deck enough to give a real trial run. Now, onto your points:

Ankh Sligh is not something that i really considered when building this deck, i was trying to beat the top decks. Of course Sligh is going to have a shot against a deck that hurts itself this much, but its far from an autoloss. I think that from reading your reply, as well as past replies by you, that your meta seems very aggro oriented. Each deck has to be adapted to one's environment, and if you are facing more aggro then control, then Masticore over Negator makes sense.

As for going down to 10 creatures, i have considered it, but it depends. Against Keeper for instance, the higher threat count can be very important, even moreso now that they are packing 3 Plows main. You seem to be facing Smother a lot(in what deck?) so i wouldnt think that cutting creatures would be the answer. But like i said, dropping two creatures isnt that big of a deal in this deck, since you have a lot of draw/search.

Recoil is an excellent card, and it would be one of the first cards i would move to the maindeck if i had the room. Its something i will have to consider for sure.

I cannot agree about the Vaults though, i firmly believe that 3 copies is the absolute minimum. You cant replace them by Scroll and Mystical because those will not fetch you one of the combo pieces. I really have never had a problem with drawing too many, and the only reason i might consider cutting one would be for some other tutor effect. I dont see why you would prefer Mystical over one of these, except for the life loss, but its usually minimal.

On the fetch land issue, i can understand. I stated early on that you could easily cut one if you find yourself taking too much damage. It is a change i will be considering when i get to do some more playtesting.

All in all, it seems like the changes you have made were mostly to solidify your position against aggro. And seen in that light, most of your changes make sense to me considering your metagame. I still urge you to bring the Vault count up to 3 though.



Certain minor tweaks are currently under consideration, but i will wait until i am sure before i discuss them. Nothing that alters the core of the deck though, because i think it is rock solid. Keep up the good replies people!\n\n

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Captain Cannibus
Guest
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2003, 05:14:02 am »

This is an excellent looking deck Fever.

I've been contemplating a mono black mask build, but I really liked this when I saw it and have just finished putting it together.

This question was asked earlier but didn't get addressed:

Quote
Quote One other thing is, why no Necropotence and Fact or Fiction?

I think it's understood, but I just thought that I'd point out that Lim-Dul's Vault (or other blue search) is probably superior to tainted pact in this deck since you are packing force of will and not unmask.
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Fever
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2003, 07:03:14 am »

Sorry if i failed to answer that question before, there is just a lot to wade through  

Necropotence isnt there for two basic reasons. First, there the triple black mana cost. It is by no means unattainable, but i dont want to be sitting on BBUU for three turns with a Necro in hand. If you look at the entire deck, there isnt even one card with double colored mana cost except for FoW(which doesnt count).

Fact or Fiction is just a little too expensive for my taste. Nobody has to tell me how broken it is, but i just find 4 mana to be a lot for this deck. When you factor in all the other draw i have, its not really needed. Not to mention the difficulty of actually fitting it in if i wanted to(ie: what to cut).

I hope that answers these questions, stay tuned folks, i will reveal my updated decklist sometime today(probably sooner rather than later).
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Fever
Guest
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2003, 11:49:37 am »

Alright, the time has come(read: im on my lunch break). Here is my revised list, a brief explanation will follow.

Fever Mask

Spells (27)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress
4 Illusionary Mask

Creatures (10)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Phyrexian Negator
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Mana (23)
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Recoil
4 Smother
3 Back to Basics
3 Gilded Drake
2 Masticore

Taking a page from Gro, i have added three copies of Sleight, it is the answer i have been looking for. First, it brings my blue card count to 20, which is exactly where i wanted it to be from the beginning. Two cards may not seem like much, but you can feel the difference when you play the deck. The second thing it does is let me play with only 10 creatures. I was wary of cutting down on threats, but by replacing the 2 Horrors with more search, i am going to see about the same number of creatures per game.

I had to cut one other card(since 2 SoH isnt enough), and one Vault tentatively got the axe. Now, i continue to be the card's biggest supporter, but i think it is acceptable to go down to 3 because i am adding 3 cantrips to the deck. If testing leaves me wanting that 4th Vault, then a tough decision will have to be made. I know how minor this change may seem, but it really does solve a lot of little things.

I have also made changes to the sb, taking into account what Milton said and my own perception of certain matchups. I have brought in a pair of Masticores to replace the Negators against weenie decks. I have also added 3 Gilded Drake as anti-Tog/Dreadnought tech, they cant be Duressed away, and at only two mana they seem efficient enough. Only testing will decide how good they actually are.

I totally love the way the deck plays right now, it is aggro-control at its finest. I feel like it can compete with any deck out there. Hopefully, someone will place well with it at a tourney, and more players will start to pay attention. Until that happens, i encourage anyone with the cards to play this deck to go to their local stores and ambush people.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2003, 12:42:47 pm »

Here is something I was tinkering with immediately after Gush's restriction before deciding just to play Hulk.

//NAME: GroMask
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Duress
4 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
1 Gush

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Illusionary Mask


I think this deck is better than Tained Mask off the bat. But I'm
not sure if it's lack of Gushes will allow it to be strong enough.
It feels like it really wants those gushes. I may add Fact or
Fiction.  However, it is amazingly consistent.

Steve
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Os-Vegeta
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2003, 10:30:57 pm »

Fever,

After a lot of thought, I am liking your latest list better than your initial one.  With Sleight of Hand, Horrors really aren't all that necessary, as you may be fetching your combo pieces quicker, and you have Masticore in the sideboard to take care of weenies all day long.  

I like the addition of Gilded Drake, as I was wondering for a little bit just how well the deck would perform against Hulk Smash.  Having the Drake in the sideboard really does look good!
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Hyperion
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terraformer51
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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2003, 04:43:56 pm »

Fever:

You have done a pretty thorough job explaining the reasoning behind your Mask design. At least to me, it seems that you are primarily interested in improving Mask on its own merits because of the way you've structured your opening post and subsequent responses to make individual card comparisons, i.e.

-Shadowmage Infiltrator over Hypnotic Specter for a card-advantage mechanism,
-Lim-Dul's Vault over Tainted Pact for tutoring ability,
-Force of Will over Unmask for forcing through key spells and protecting yourself from your opponent's,

 etc. Obviously by increasing the blue component of the deck you can avail yourself of some different sideboarding options as well and can run Brainstorm/SoH. Tainted Mask ran the blue power and Recoil already, so these seem to be the motivating factors for playing your Mask list over a more traditional Mask deck.

I guess my question to you is basically how well theory has translated into practice and if you feel these changes have in fact made a tangible difference in its matchups. What have your actual testing results been (I'm not asking for percentages, but more general indicators like 'favorable', 'difficult', etc.) against the major archetypes? Compared to Tainted Mask's matchups, which specific matchups do you feel your deck is better equipped to face, and which components of your deck facilitated these improvements? Conversely, do you think any of its matchups have gotten more difficult (again, compared to traditional Mask), and why?
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Fever
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2003, 05:13:30 pm »

@Hyperion

Very good questions, i will try to answer them as best i can. I think you have a pretty good understanding of why i chose the rout that i did.

I have to say, with no disrespect to CF, that i like this version a lot better. I had even tried a straight Tainted Mask build with Vaults over Pact, and i just really liked the Vaults much better. But, to answer your question, i feel that most matchups have been improved. However, since i can only test online, and i only test against players i respect, i havent gotten a chance to extensively playtest each matchup. Here are my findings and/or opinions about most of the major archetypes.

1) Keeper
The slight loss of speed seems like it might weaken this matchup slightly, however i have more threats to deal with. The Keeper player cannot let any of my creatures stay on the table, because each of them can spell game over by itself, either through raw damage or card advantage. My ability to counter back, as well as bring in Back to Bascis, gives me a small edge over traditional Mask builds. This matchup remains close.

2) Hulk
This one is tougher than Keeper for a few reasons. An early Tog is just really tough to deal with, as it can block your Finkels and Negators quite easily. If you can lay down an early Nought, then their Tog probably wont be able to trade with it, but its not easy to resolve a Mask against them. Im not sure whether Tainted Mask has a better matchup, because it would seem to present all the same problems for both builds. Gilded Drake can be game-breaking after sideboarding, but its still an uphill fight.

3) TNT
Basically, i try to play combo here, and counter Welder at all costs. If you can keep them from getting an active Welder, than you can just crush them with a Dreadnought, since none of their creatures match up to it. It is far from easy though, since your Finkel's evasion means nothing in this matchup. It gets better post-sb, as you get to bring in Smother, Recoil, and Masticore.

4) Sligh
Honestly, you should crush them. I know Negator isnt great against them, but you really dont need to play it. Mask decks have always been tough for Sligh, and although this one isnt quite as fast, it should still be tough for you to lose. The only thing you really have to worry about is Rack and Ruin, so save your FoWs for those. Smother is golden here, and Recoil is an instant-speed Vindicate most of the time.

5) Rector Trix
I havent tested this at all, but it would seem to present many problems for this deck. Rector isnt so bad though, and my plan would be to win via Finkel. They cant block it or remove it, so just draw a lot of cards and try to keep them from going off. Also, you can just trample over a Rector for the win. Even if they are at 16 life i would just go for it, that way the only get very few cards off Bargain. Definetly bring in Recoil here, as well as Gilded Drake(stealing Rectors is tech).


I hope my answers have been sufficient for you. Unfortunetly, i havent gotten a chance to playtest this in real life, but i will try to get down to the local store when i get a chance.
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Dr_Nuxvomica
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2003, 04:16:49 am »

Nice deck man, I like the Lim-Dul over the Tainted Pact.I never liked that card in Mask (along with Unmask)and cut it with the rituals when I was heavily playin my Mask version:

 http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=6281

which is not as sweet as your's but the same U/B.Got lost in the Cabal/manland did I ~as I was thinking heavy hand control might keep my pieces safer.

Mind Harness is a fun SB card if Dryad's/Welders are a problem.
It's fun to watch them pummel there former owners/Weld the wrong stuff. D'oh.
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