The Status of Fish

[ZoneSeek]

The point of this post is to discuss the status of Gay Fish in the current metagame - specifically, the maindeck trends I have observed and the sideboarding options that will make it a solid and respectable choice. I have been testing Fish for quite a while over the internet and in person, and I would like to present the following trends I have observed by my own deck's standards to you.

A brief note: Misdirections have been slowly disappearing from the maindeck, according to almost everyone I've talked to. I'm personally very close to going to two, with everyone else in the same range.

1. More Mana Disruption - I feel that one of the big advantages of Fish right now is its ability to use and find its Wastelands, Strip Mine, and Null Rods. Playing the mana denial game versus all of the Combo decks running around out there could quite possibly be the best way for Fish to maintain a solid stance in the metagame. Null Rod is getting better and better as more people are playing mana artifacts in more decks.

I traditionally have only played three "Strips" in my personal build - but I have recently bumped up to four and I feel that even five may be the correct number. With almost all of the metagame's most dominant decks being reliant on a specific color or type of mana (Offcolor duals, Workshops, etc), increasing the amount of mana denying lands could have a huge impact on Fish's early game disruption, and allow it to enter the "combo mode" all Fish players known and love.

Subpoint: Stifle - I have talked to Phantom Tape Worm and many other Fish players on the issue of Stifle. I'm personally testing three of them in the maindeck along with a number of other people. While it has always been Fish's nature to tap out to attack or cast creatures every turn, oftentimes holding just one mana back for a well timed Stifle when your opponent is showing Fetchlands can be an incredible tempo advantage that will counteract the free mana available.

More juicy Stifle targets include almost everything lock-wise in Stax and MUD, Pernicious Deeds and Powder Kegs wherever they are played, and Goblin Welder activations in the multitude of decks packing them. Most uses of Stifle involve maintaining tempo - so in exchange for a free mana slot on your opponent's turn, you chance gaining HUGE tempo on your next turn by severly disrupting their gameplan.

As a minor note, you can bluff Ancestral mana by leaving the same U open, when you are instead going to use a Stifle.

Concensus:

3x Null Rod
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
and possibly 3x Stifle

2. Single Card Strategy in the sideboard - Fish has always been a deck with a small assortment of toolbox cards in its sideboard - various cards that don't particularly shine in a single matchup, but overall give solid reinforcement to nearly every matchup. It has been my discovery in recent times that Fish players are leaning more towards single "hoser" cards to shut down or stall out the opponent's deck while continually applying pressure through beatdown.

Energy Flux is the foremost of all of these Single Card Strategies. It is an absolutely incredible bomb against a large number of artifact decks. With the increased mana denial in Fish's arsenal, getting to three mana to drop an Energy Flux is becoming less and less of a problem. While there are ways for artifact based decks to play around Energy Flux, it will almost always force them on the defensive, allowing Fish to stabilize and build up threats while they clamor to match threats or remove the Energy Flux.

Arcane Laboratory is yet another three casting cost beast that can be used to shut down many of today's big metagame contenders. It's quite hard to go off in a storm-based combo deck when you can't get your own kill card to function! Resolving this vs. a combo deck will give you a large amount of time to either beat them down or resolve a Rootwater Thief and make it even more difficult for them to win.

Edit - Side Note: Arcane Laboratory also functions as a wonderful hoser to all types of mana acceleration - almost as an enchantment version of "Null Rod". Arcane Laboratory will allow you to go into a mode where you will be casting creatures on your turn, and using your Pitch Counters, Stifles, Annuls, and Disrupts on their turn. I haven't tested Arcane Laboratory extensively, but I feel that in conjunction with manlands, you should be able to continue to tap out each turn, maintaining the attack under the Arcane Laboratory's lock.

Concensus:

Sideboarded 2-3x Energy Flux
Sideboarded 2-3x Arcane Laboratory

3. Cheap and versatile spells in the board - Most of these are here as defensive, controllish answers to big threats. The longstanding Blue Elemental Blast has always served us well, and I think its place is very important in Fish's sideboard. This strategy has been common to Fish for a while (as far as I'm concerned) but some new choices are being made.

Disrupt has been quite the amazing card for me in recent times - while keeping your opponent's mana in check with the extra mana disruption, this underrated card can help maintain strong tempo in the face of enemy discard or pitch counters. Without discussing its cute cycling ability, its a card that can catch many opponents by surprise. Disrupting a first turn Duress is an incredible tempo gain.

Divert has been often regaled as a horrible card, but with mana bases and usage being very tight in the current metagame, this may offer itself to be a nice addition to the sideboard as extra Misdirection effects. It feels much nicer to change the target of spells with one mana than with two cards.

Other utility spells worth mention include Extract and Annul.

Concensus:

Sideboarded 2-4x Disrupt possible
Sideboarded 2-4x Divert possible

Sample Sideboards:

Sideboard by ZoneSeek

3x Energy Flux
3x Arcane Laboratory
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Disrupt
3x Annul

Sideboard by Rebel428

4x Sea Sprite / Suq'ata Firewalker / Chill (right now Chill is probably best)
4x Energy Flux
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Annul / Legacy's Allure (metagame call)
1x Stifle / Misdirection (metagame call - Stifles obviously maindeck)

Sideboard by wuaffiliate

4x Energy Flux
3x Arcane Laboratory
4x Legacy's Allure (considering a drop)
3x Disrupt
1x Null Rod

Sideboard by Necro-M

3x Sea Sprites
2x Chill
2x Arcane Lab
2x Energy Flux
1x Null Rod
2x Disrupt
3x Stifle

Sideboard by Vegeta2711

3x Annul
4x Blue Elemental Blast
4x Energy Flux
3x Arcane Laboratory
1x Divert

Conclusion

Overall, I have observed most players' strategies to fit the above statements. Now that I have presented that to you, I ask of you: What do you think the best weapons against the metagame's top teir decks are? Are these current trends leading Fish in the right direction? Where is Fish's place in the current metagame?

I will leave you with a "Thank you!" for the read, and a brief list of the sideboard cards I think are viable for Fish.

Arcane Laboratory, Energy Flux, Blue Elemental Blast, Disrupt, Divert, Extract, Annul, Stifle, Null Rod, Maze of Ith, Boomerang, Chill, Waterfront Bouncer, Magus of the Unseen.
(list will be edited as I remember the cards I obviously will have forgotten)

Edit - Sample decklist in case you are curious:
(Extra land added per "duh" effect and Fever's post)

Creatures - 16
4x Manta Riders
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Rootwater Thief

Denial - 11
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
2x Stifle
3x Null Rod


Draw / Utility - 10
4x Curiosity
4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

Land - 23
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Faerie Conclave
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
9x Island
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Library of Alexandria

Sideboard as metagamed.\n\n

[the Luke]

My wife plays our fish deck. It is currently not teched out against the latest metagame. A notable variant in our maindeck is:
-4 Manta Riders
+4 Flying Men
-4 Lord of Atlantis
+4 Voidmage Prodigy

My comment on this is: Counterspell on legs is good, and who plays Morphling anymore?

Here's our current sideboard:
1 Misdirection (4th)
1 Psionic Blast (3rd)
2 Stifle (don't have 4 yet)
3 Energy Flux
4 Null Rod (maindeck 3x Nev's Disk)
4 Blue Elemental Blast

The 4th Misd will probably be cut for a 3rd Stifle, and there are various changes I would make if I had full creative control, but it's my wife's deck so it ends up how SHE likes it.

[wuaffiliate]

I think fish really needs to go the mana denial rout, we need all the chances we can get to win we are the underdogs. Fish is always underestimated so we have that to our advantage.

Stifle and disrupt have to be my 2 favorites here; stifle is a bomb against so many different strategies. Disrupt is a great early AND late game spell at worst it’s a 1cc cycle that makes your opponents spell cost 1 more. I found 1 main deck was superior to a 3rd Misdirection it just has more targets and has more TAMPO advantage .

4 conclaves were too many; they clutter your hand and when I draw more than 1 in my opening hand I cringe. A 5th waste is essential, it’s got mad TAMPO, and it works well in bad matches (read: workshops bom bom bommmmmm).

Divert can be a good little tool to have but I really don’t have room; there are more important slots to be filled. Divert doesn’t help matches as much as the other SB choices we have to chose from.

Extract is a spell I’m not fond of in fish. I’ve found thieves to be superior and always would rather see a disrupt or a stifle when the extract came to me through top deck. It’s a viable choice but I rather not use it because there are better choices, and who wants a 1 shot thief?

Good thread idea Zone

Fish 4L

[edit] Since Zone doesnt object it would be interesting to see what you all run main and SB. this is my current list:

//NAME: GhettoFagz.dec
//  Creatures
        4 Manta Riders
        4 Rootwater thief
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        4 Lord of Atlantis
//  Spells
        4 Standstill
        4 Curiosity
        4 Force of will
        2 Misdirection
        3 Null Rod
        3 Stifle
        1 Disrupt
//  Mana
        4 Mishra's Factory
        3 Faerie Conclave
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        10 Island
SB:  3 Engergy Flux
SB:  3 Arcane Laboratory
SB:  3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Legacy's Allure
SB:  2 Disrupt
SB:  1 Null Rod

[MoreFling]

I think that in terms of viable budget decks, Fish is definately the nr1 contender to do well. Other than that, I don't have much to add to the actual decklists, since they look really good.
Nice work ZoneSeek.

[Adeptstremere]

This is really good stuff. I’ve been playing around with Fish for quite some time now and have been very pleased with it. I’ve also been toying around with different configurations and alternate cards with some mixed results.

The manabase’s I see here look very smooth; the extra 2 wastes seem like a very good choice. I have been considering Stifle for quite some time now but have not come about testing it yet, how have your results been so far?

Here is my decklist (with some changes after reading this thread included); Aggro is popular at my meta-game, hence the Disks over Null Rod. My sideboard changes a lot depending on where I’m playing.

“Gay Fish” Semi-Powered

Creatures (16)
       4x Rootwater Thief
       4x Manta Riders
       4x Lord of Atlantis
       4x Cloud of Faeries

Permission (12)
       4x Force of Will
       3x Misdirection
       2x Stifle
       1x Disrupt
       2x Psionic Blast

Utility (2)
       2x Nevinyrral’s Disk

Draw (8)
       4x Curiosity
       4x Standstill
      
Mana (22)
       1x Strip Mine
       4x Wasteland
       3x Faerie Conclave
       4x Mishra's Factory
       8x Island
       1x Library of Alexandria
       1x Mox Sapphire


Here in Spain & Gibraltar people still seem to be using targeted effects more (at least in my area), so I’m pretty happy with 3 Mis-D’s.

I’ll be competing soon in a large tournament at Jerez (Spain) but the metagame is a pretty tough call. There will be large mix of high powered decks and random rogue decks. A bit of everything everywhere, so do I keep the disks or change over to null rods when I don’t know what to expect?

[ZoneSeek]

The more power you expect to see, the more I would shift heavily towards running the Null Rods over the Disks. I have found Stifle to be a big tempo swing most of the time. There are so many decks out there that are using the Brainstorm / Fetchland parity - Stifle is an incredible tempo swing in those situations as it is still largely unexpected.

I would probably run Stifle the same way as I would Null Rod - the more power you can expect, the more Fetchlands you will likely see and thusly Stifle becomes a greater option. I would probably stick to running either both Stifles and Null Rods or neither. It looks like your deck is very well metagamed against aggro - though I would definitely consider running 1x Merchant Scroll, 1x Psionic Blast in place of your 2x Stifle. Even without Ancestral Recall, Merchant Scroll is a very sexy card.

Keep the replies coming!

[Zherbus]

Moved.

[Fever]

Guys, just one thing. If you are going to run 4 Mishras + 4/5 Strips, please up the mana count to 23 sources at least. Honestly, 8 Islands is just asking for trouble. Im also happy to see ppl cutting back on Conclaves, because while they do have inherent synergy with the rest of the deck, it does have its share of disadvantages. I think i might run a pair, but no more, the cip tapped part is just a killer.

[ZoneSeek]

I've been mulling over the issue of adding another mana source. I think I may need to double check my notes and decklists about how many mana sources I play. Another Island may actually belong there. I knew something wasn't right.

Actually, now that I think about it, I know why the list looks off - my personal list doesn't include a Time Walk (I don't own one currently) and there should be an Island in that spot. I'll have to look over and re-tool the sample decklist with an extra land.

Thanks!

[Rebel428]

It would seem that my SB is the only one not running Arcane Labs.  That's just a metagame call by me, since I haven't seen a combo deck around here in ages and thus didn't feel the need to add them.  On the other hand, I see plenty of Sligh variants and random Stacker3-like stuff, hence Chills.

As ZoneSeek noted for me, the lone Stifle/Misdirection in the SB is just to fill in the fourth card of either (I run three of each MD).

Legacy's Allure has been incredibly useful, at least in testing.  The most common targets for it is probably Goblin Welder.

I somewhat agree with theluke's point - do we really need to stick to Merfolk anymore?  Islandwalk hasn't been all that important lately, but the damage bonus from Lord of Atlantis is still useful.  Anyone else have thoughts about this?

Sorry I don't have a decklist to post, but I'm still toying around with it.  Right now it looks very similar to wu's anyway.\n\n

[ZoneSeek]

I have eyed separate "Blue Weenie" aggro type decks as well as the merits of different splashes. Obvious splashable / workable cards include Flying Men, Gaea's Skyfolk, Meddling Mage, Razorfin Hunter and possibly Quirion Dryad. This really isn't the thread for such a discussion, but feel free to try it out elsewhere.

Does using Legacy's Allure to steal Phyrexian Dreadnought even work? I don't think there's a timing window in which you could make the switch. I've personally never liked it but I noticed it popped up in a few sideboards, so I figured it was worth mention. It seems a little too narrow, and while the Control Magic idea is great for tempo, I think the options we have are either too narrow or too expensive to use.

Lord of Atlantis has always been good to me. In many, many matches, the key has been to just continually drop creatures and overwhelm the opponent with your fabulous army. Before Gush was restricted, I could steal Game 1 wins from Gro-Atog players by simply playing out more dorks than they could handle.

[wuaffiliate]

i was wondering for an aggro metagame why use disk over keg? alot of times ive had disk come out too late, kegs were nice since they did let me keep some of my gay men swingin. i see the use for disk with enchantments and such, but for aggro i would deffinately try kegs instead.

on stifle, thus far it has never been a dead card. i can always make use of it, be it fetchlands, ftk, kegs, cores, scrolls, even a phid once that won me the game. the list does go on and on and on.

on legacy, im trying control magic over them SB now actually(3 only) because it just hits more and i always have the mana. The only down side is the fact that its an enchantment but it is deffinately a solid choice. legacy a dread doesnt work.

[ZoneSeek]

If you are in an aggro-heavy or even an aggro-exclusive metagame, I would probably suggest not playing Fish as Aggro matchups tend to be its worst. (Well, FAT aggro at least - you can match them with Weenies.) But, if you insist like so many people do to play Fish, the deck still has some wonderful anti-aggro sideboard and mainboard cards.

I ran Disk for a while as a filler while still collecting cards for Fish and it's probably the only card with that hefty of a mana cost I would ever consider playing. That says a lot. Without doing a cheesy pros and cons evaluation of Disk versus Keg, I'd have to say that if you are unsure of which is better - you should just try both.

For other options, I've found the obvious Maze of Ith and Psionic Blast to be amazing as always versus any sort of aggro with fatter creatures. Against the small guys, you'll likely want sweepers. Powder Keg looks appealing against decks like Sligh with an abundance of one casting cost creatures. Just play it smart - I think if you are a reasonable Fish player you will know if Powder Kegs will be worth the slot.

For Suicide Black, you may also board in Disrupts if you think they still have lots of spells and Boomerang for extra "removal". The tempo gained by casting Boomerang on a Ritualed creature is very good.

I think most of the boarding options for Sligh have already been discussed - there's nothing really special to bring in outside of your normal red hate. Blue Elemental Blasts, Chills, Sea Sprite, and Suq'ata Firewalker can be used if you anticipate lots of Sligh.

Hope I helped. \n\n

[Phantom Tape Worm]

This is the decklist that I used to win the friday morning event at gencon:

Gay Fish
3 manta rider
4 cloud of faeries
4 rootwater thief
4 lord of atlantis

4 force of will
2 misdirection
4 standstill
4 curiosity
1 merchant scroll
1 psionic blast
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall
3 null rod

4 mishra's factory
4 faerie conclave
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 library of alexandria
1 mox sapphire
9 island

Board
1 null rod
4 energy flux
4 maze of ith
2 blue elemental blast
2 arcane laboratory
2 boomerang

Quote I think fish really needs to go the mana denial rout, we need all the chances we can get to win we are the underdogs. Fish is always underestimated so we have that to our advantage.

Amen to that.  Wastelands steal games.  In the power heavy meta that was gencon, wasteland was pure gold.  My board also focused on mana denial, ie. 4 energy flux + 1 extra null rod.  Yes, they are hosers, but they are mana denial hosers


As far as the status of fish in the current metagame...i am a firm believer that fish can adapt to and have a reasonable shot against just about any metagame.  The reason being, it has access to and excels at the best ability in all of magic: drawing lots of cards.  Thus making it an inherently powerful deck.  Fish is the deck that proves that it really doesn't matter what you are drawing into, so long as you are out drawing your opponent.  Drawing into 1/1's?!  C'mon, who cares, right, 1/1 creatures are nothing to be afriad of.  This is type 1, we routinely see 12/12's in the first 3 turns.  But when you can selectively say no to the major threats and keep throwing down more 1/1's...

It is sufficient to say that fish is a solid deck.  And the less people that realize that the better for those of us that play it competitively.  Let them side in their REB's meant for hulk and keeper.  I'd rather not have to deal with hoser cards like plaguebearer or tsabo's web anyway

[Magimaster]

I have Fish about 90% built right now (for the past few months ) but before I packed it and started tweaking my Sui again, I was using Waterfront Bouncers against the fat aggro decks.

Keep in mind, that I used it in a 1.5 metagame (read: uber random fatty-dom) and I found that a combination of Bouncers + Mazes wreaked havoc on your opponent, with the occasional Psi-Blast to finally get rid of that damn thing. The Mazes worked well because so many of your creatures can just fly over the mazed creature, and the Bouncers had some nice tech with Curiosity + Standstill etc.

I just thought I'd throw that out there because some people might like some help converting their Fish into a heavy aggro metagame.


Just another thought, have people lost favor with Annul? Last time I used it, it was pretty good. That was a while back though...

Annul VS Flux...reminds me of the old PoP/Blood Moon debate.

[ZoneSeek]

I've been using both - but I play versus a lot of artifact decks online. The testing isn't that wonderful, but it's fun to Obliterate artifact decks so easily.

I knew I forgot a card! I will add Waterfront Bouncer and another creature, Magus of the Unseen to the list of possible cards for the sideboard..

Quote As far as the status of fish in the current metagame...i am a firm believer that fish can adapt to and have a reasonable shot against just about any metagame.  The reason being, it has access to and excels at the best ability in all of magic: drawing lots of cards.  Thus making it an inherently powerful deck.  Fish is the deck that proves that it really doesn't matter what you are drawing into, so long as you are out drawing your opponent.  Drawing into 1/1's?!  C'mon, who cares, right, 1/1 creatures are nothing to be afriad of.  This is type 1, we routinely see 12/12's in the first 3 turns.  But when you can selectively say no to the major threats and keep throwing down more 1/1's...

Absolutely. This is both the reason I play Fish and the reason it is underestimated. Such a perfect statement!

It's not to say that Fish's cards are specifically bad - it's that they appear bad but in fact have some nice synergy and efficiency. It is the efficiency of the draw and creature base that allows Fish to maintain a forward tempo.

I think I'm going to ask for concessions when I drop my first turn dorks from now on.

By the way, why was the Manta Riders the first to go, Phantom Tape Worm? I can't say I really disagree with you, but perhaps you could offer some reasoning behind the move.

[Adeptstremere]

Merchant Scroll – Is it worth it without Ancestral and Timewalk? This is something I looked over and discarded. Then again, the flexibility to get either counter or blast might be worth another try.

Fever is right it does seem a little low on U mana count. Must add an island somewhere, now what to replace… I hate it when this happens,

Disk vs. Keg – I don’t find the initial weenie rush a problem, especially with the Mishra’s around. Fat aggro gives this deck fits, which is where the disk comes in. Powder Keg would take just as long or longer to build up counters for the casting cost of a fat creature. I also personally prefer cleaning the board than just the select few creatures/ artefacts that a keg may destroy, but that’s just me. This could be a very interesting debate.

I must agree that in an aggro meta-game it would be easier to play something other than Fish. I do also play Parfait, Mono-U control, Ankh Sligh and Goblin Sligh but I’m just feeling Fishy lately. Also I play in very different places at times, a heavy aggro meta-game at home with just a few control and combo, while once or twice a month I travel a bit to more competitive high-powered tournaments where it really excels. I find Fish to be a very flexible deck, which can adapt to almost any meta-game very easily besides it’s a blast to play. \n\n

[wuaffiliate]

the thing that i REALLY dont get is that you took fish and won the friday tourney. why do people still underestimate it? i just cant get past that.

anyhow have you put any thought into removing one conclaive i always find when running 4 i ALWAYS drew multiples much too often.

heh Zone i dont think anyone will be able to compete with your fish after you get those sleeves .

Scroll would really be a no go without ancestral as a target in my opinion.\n\n

[bebe]

phantom - what is inyteresting about your list is that it is reverting back tothe original lists we posted on BD with a new sideboard. I am not sure why the two Boomies are in the side. Can you elaborate on that?
Also Maze is useful but is it as useful as extra Psi Blasts ?
FISH is not dead ... just a few old players who used to like play it are dead.

[IllusionX]

A card I've been using for sometime, which replaced boomerang, is Sigil of Sleep.  With such a creature heavy enviroment, they have been gold.  They allow for that first/second turn creature to become a semi-permanent source of creature bounce.  It can function just like Curiosity does off a Firewalker as well.  Allowing you to selectively time bouncing of creatures.

I've recently been testing Black Vise in the md again, along with 2 Arcane Laboratorys in the board.  This has been really nice in the control/combo matchup when they do successfully get creature removal through, allowing for a couple extra points of damage in a typical game.

For any form of creature steal, I did test Dominate a few times in the slot that most people used to run Legacy's Allure and Control Magic.  At the same cc as Control Magic, I can nab a Dreadnought or Welder at anytime.  The casting cost was too cumbersome in testing though.  If you are running a 4cc spell, I still feel Nevinyrral's Disk is the best option.  With manlands readily available in the deck, I usually still find myself winning no problem after activating the Disk.

[ZoneSeek]

Quote the thing that i REALLY dont get is that you took fish and won the friday tourney. why do people still underestimate it? i just cant get past that.

LET THEM underestimate it!  It has been said time and time again that underestimation is Fish's number one asset.

Quote heh Zone i dont think anyone will be able to compete with your fish after you get those sleeves .

I will indeed be unbeatable.

Getting back on track, I think Black Vise gets better if you bring in Arcane Laboratories. I'm not sure how MUCH better, but I think against certain decks it may make the Vise more likely to deal lategame damage.

Bebe, Maze is just so much better, for two reasons: Psychatog and Phyrexian Dreadnought. These two creatures are major parts of the current metagame, and Maze of Ith can be absolutely huge against them.

I've never tried Merchant Scroll without Ancestral. Try it and let me know how it works. Fetching "only" Psionic Blast and countermagic isn't anything to dismiss! It's really strong. This may surprise some people, but sometimes my first scroll target would be a Force of Will over Ancestral Recall. When you need that counter, it's there for you.\n\n

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote By the way, why was the Manta Riders the first to go, Phantom Tape Worm? I can't say I really disagree with you, but perhaps you could offer some reasoning behind the move.  

Manta riders is the weakest card in the deck, and the creature count is already high enough to support 4 creature enchantments (realistically you could probably go down to 14 creatures without running into a major problem).  Also, regardless of keeper increasing its amount of maindeck creature removal, the rest of the field has not.  Hulk, stax, mask, trix, tendrils academy, etc. in all of these matchups i don't have to worry about losing my threats, and i only need one on the board to be curious.

Additionally, in a non-basic land heavy environment, a first turn wasteland is usually a much better play then a first turn manta rider.  The mere fact that i am running 24 mana sources when my mana curve tops out at two, combined with all the draw power of the "gay engine", means that i'll have lands to spare.  I can afford to trade my mana sources for theirs.

Quote anyhow have you put any thought into removing one conclaive i always find when running 4 i ALWAYS drew multiples much too often.

In the mono blue version, no.  The conclaves have never done me wrong, they can keep the gay men swinging when the beatdown would have otherwise stalled out, and sometimes (see choke, currently the best anti blue sideboard card available) they are a godsent.  That said, i have done a lot of experimenting with splash colors lately.  If i were to splash a color in fish (using fetchlands of course)  i would definately go down to 2 conclaves.  This is because the fetchlands land thinning effect prevents you from achieving enough lands to make effective use of the conclaves.  However, do remember that conclave is a U source of mana. At 14 U mana sources the mana base is exactly where i think it should be, i wouldn't go any lower on the U mana sources than i am currently at.

Quote phantom - what is inyteresting about your list is that it is reverting back tothe original lists we posted on BD with a new sideboard. I am not sure why the two Boomies are in the side. Can you elaborate on that?
Also Maze is useful but is it as useful as extra Psi Blasts ?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it   The original decklist is fine, it just needed extra wastelands because the metagame has made wasteland that much better.  The boomerangs are great against random things like parfait, and are much stronger than they look, i even killed a trix player with one by bouncing illusions with the life gain on the stack.

As far as maze goes, zoneseek has already said what i would have.  But i would stress their importance even further since it's already been mentioned that fish has a problem with fatties.  Maze just fits so nicely into the deck, synergy abounds, that i wouldn't even consider dropping them from the decklist (be they in the main or the board).





When i expect a control heavy metagame i'll throw the vise into the board.  It keeps the damage coming from yet another angle and is another very synergyistic card with extra wastes.


I tried merchant scroll in 1.5 (so obviously no ancestral as a target), and it wasn't bad.  Though i think without ancestral as a target for it you probably would rather have something else, since there really are so many good options available for this deck.  (eg. you could maindeck vise, maze, an extra misd, an extra psi blast, the list goes on and on)

[bebe]

I have never run a tog deck or mask deck without mana short in the side and most of my decks run full compliments of wastes. That said, I have found Mazes often less than optimal as solutions. I prefer to blast juggies and other fat.
Still, if it is working as you say, why fix it.

BTW, the Fish deck that beat my Trix and knocked me out of the finals brought Extracts in from the side. Now that Stifles are about I think they might find a home in some sideboards as well.

[Diablos8]

Quote (bebe @ Aug. 06 2003,06:41)BTW, the Fish deck that beat my Trix and knocked me out of the finals brought Extracts in from the side.

Amen to that. In my testing, along with a friend of mine, found Extract to be the most uber-jankiest tech there is. It did wonders, so good that we made slots for them in the maindeck to batlle combo in game 1. He was running the W/U version of fish, but the same idea is here. If it's all possible I would definately try to get Extract in the maindeck, as it single handedly destorys a large amount of the the field we see today. It rips the single Goblin Trenches from Keeper, The Bargain/Necro from Rector decks, the Triskleion/Karn from Stax, and many other decks we see today. When he(Adam) played the deck at the TMD Invitational, he went 5-2, beating the Shining, Sligh, Venguer Masque, Stompy(eh), and I believe Hulk Smash, losing only to BangBus, as it had a turn 2 win BOTH games, and Oath, after there were 3 Oaths Extracted and the guy rips a 4th one.

[Fever]

I think the question is which card is better for the sideboard; Stifle or Extract. I like the ability to remove a lone win condition or a Bargain from my opponent's library, however i think Stifle has a much broader use. I have even been thinking about maindecking a pair, to go along with the new mana denial theme.

[Sylvester]

Well, from my PoV, stiffle lets you have tricks(vs Illusions, rector, fetchies...) that are completely impossible to do without it. In comparison, extract 'only' supplements the thieves.

[Fever]

Thats a good point. The fact the we already run Thieves maindeck might make the Extracts a little redundant. After all, our main goal is not to remove half of their library, only a few key cards.

[bebe]

Thieves are slower than Extracts. A first turn Extract can be bad for a few decks. That said, I love Stifles and would main deck two or three.

[Diablos8]

Extract can be used turn 1, while the fastest theif can be used is turn 2, which is highly unlikely, as you will use your mana to cast spells. Same goes for turns 3 and/or 4. Most of the time the deck will be casting it's critters and Standstill, and won't have the mana availible to activate Theif.

Stifle and Extract are still very similiar in a way. Stifle will stop the Bargain from coming into play for a turn, and extract will remove the Bargain from the deck. In that sense they work the same, but It's golden to stop Fetchlands, and the stuff Extract can't rip if it's in the hand or in play. They both deserve a good amount of testing.

[Rogue]

On stifle vs. Extract: I have been playing with both the Mono U and U/w version (courtesy of diablos), and I found extract to be stupidly good. I cast it turn 1 against a rector/tendrils deck removing bargain and he seriously considered packing it up. Eventually I just removed the necro and he had no choice, but just by using 1 card on turn 1 he was forced into a plan b. That alone makes me think that it is amazing. Plus, consider stifle. If he uses therapy, number 1 is on force of will. Unless you have 2, you just cut your losses. If he sees stifle, you know damn well thats target number 2. Extract will -never- be named first, and will -always- be cast immediately following (unless he went therapy rector therapy before you got a blue source, in the same turn, in which case you probably lost anyways). Granted, this is only 1 matchup, and stifle has peripheral uses, but its reactionary nature and cost (your other reactive cards are free) make it a little less aggressive. Still, a good card worthy of consideration.