Perfecting Long's Burning Desire

[Smmenen]

As most of you know I was in another country for all of July and in June I tested Stax and GroAtog exclusively in preparation for Origins with a bit of Tog testing in between.  Right now I am playing catchup and starting with Long's deck.  After that I'll test Dragon and a few other decks.  

Yesterday, I played about a dozen games with Long's Burning Desire and I must say that I have some personal preferences with the deck. I started the day playing the deck like a moron, but I have ended up playing it rather smoothly by this point.  I know how the deck plays now and what it's trying to do.  

The deck plays somewhat like an Academy deck.  The key element of playing this deck is knowing when to sac LED. Generally its right after you cast a draw 7 or a Burning Wish.  You only need a little bit of juice in your 'yard before you Burning Wish for Yawgmoth's Will - something you want to do rather quickly.  Once you have done that you can recur all the artifact mana - like the LED's, break them before you start playing more spells, and you basically can just win.  If you aren't quite at the win and Yawg Will won't get you enough, you Wish for Desire and use that to get to the win as long as you have cast 5 or more spells - which meeans hold the moxen .

My changes are Bold and Italicized:

Here is my tuned deck:
//NAME: Untitled Deck
1 Demonic Consultation **
1 Memory Jar **
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tendrils of Agony[/i]
4 Duress
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm[/i]
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Future Sight
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
SB:
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

I need to find something to put in for Demonic Consultation. Also
Future Sight number two might be better than the Jar.

My personal conclusions about the deck are:
1 The desire belongs in the SB after all, despite as nice as a
random desire in the MD is against decks like Hulk.
2) One tendrils in the main, no Hunting Pack.  The reasoning behind the one Tendrils is simple.  Enough of the time you will have it in hand to actually just win.  But that in itself shouldn't be sufficient to want to have it main deck.   The two reasons I have it are first often times I can deposit it in the Graveyard and cast it under Will for the Win.  Second, I can use a tutor from the 'yard to get it.  I see no reason to use Hunting Pack despite the fact that you only need 4 Storm for it to be lethal.

The deck is quite degenerate. Any suggestions for the two slots? Is Fact or Fiction strong enough?  What about Time Spiral?

As for matchups I think that two almost autoloses are Welder Mud and Mono Blue.  WElder Mud becuase Sphere and Null Rod are the two cards that are autowin against this deck.  Welder MUD has Powder Keg and Wastelands which hurts alot.  

I think that Tog and Keeper are, on balance, unfavorable matchups as well.  This deck doesn't really use Duress to protect itself, it uses them to erratically ensure that nothing is in the way.  The only thing about this deck is that it will just randomly win and so even unfavorable matchups could turn favorable by a turn one or two win (i.e. a really savage hand).  

For reference here is Long's and Bode's list (Bode got 2nd at Dulmen in July):

Burning Desire
By Mike Long
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Abeyance
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Obliterate
1 Vindicate
4 Stifle
3 Phyrexian Negator


By Roland Bode
// Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
// Enchantments
1 Future Sight
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
// Spells
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Hunting Pack
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Balance
4 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
// Artifacts
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Decree of Annihilation
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Mind Twist
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Recoup
SB: 1 Replenish
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Vindicate
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will


I'll be working on this deck all week.  So let's have some fun.  

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Exeter]

Keeper, Tog, and Welder MUD (and presumably other Stax variants) are unfavorable matchups, but this is a good deck?  I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

[Smmenen]

I think the Tog and Keeper matchups are just slightly unfavorable. Same with Stax (60-40). The Welder Mud and Mono Blue matchup are downright terrible.  I am also speaking without extensive testing against those deck, but based upon my experience and knowledge of those decks and my experience with this deck.  

Look, it's a wide world out there.  You could go through a whole tournament and not play any of those decks.  There is really no deck that can get away without having an unfavorable match to some tier one deck.  That's the nature of the type one metagame right now.  It's a quite balanced environment.  I think it is the duty of type one players to be familiar with competitive decks and this definately is one of those.

Even against those decks it has unfavorable matchups, this is one of the unique decks that is so fast it may just blitz by any opposition.   I won't say where it stands among the tiers. It's not even the best combo deck.  But, this deck is quite br0ken.

And the reason to bring this deck up is becuase its a good deck that deserves not only discussion, but people being familiar with it.
Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Necropotenza]

Hi, I've been playing this deck for three weeks and I'm liking it a lot.
Some card choices:

Hunting pack: I play it only as my alternate win if my opponent has played a Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish. If you play Tendrils maindeck, I'd find it rather difficult pulling a 9 copy Tendrils.

Demonic consultation: this is the card that allows me to go off on 2nd turn in a regular basis. It's great, if you lack LED you search it, and if you lack BW it gets it at instant speed. This is good, because when you Will you have a one mana tutor that will get you the 2nd Wish you need to combo out. In my opinion it deserves a slot.

Future sight: I've seen some lists playing it. My theory is that if it hits, you have to win that turn 90% of the times because there's lots of 0 cc mana artifacts and many draw 7s. But I'm not too sure you can cast it becaue of the triple U.

Mox diamond: I play 12 land and I never seem to possibly play it. You only play 11 lands. The lone utility I've found it has is give you 2 free spells (one before will, 2nd after will).

I hope this is useful.

Adria

[Smmenen]

Quote (Necropotenza @ Aug. 17 2003,09:30)Hunting pack: I play it only as my alternate win if my opponent has played a Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish. If you play Tendrils maindeck, I'd find it rather difficult pulling a 9 copy Tendrils.

I see your point.  But if you resolve Bargain, you should have no problem casting a 9 poing Tendrils.  Or Necro, or Future Sight,etc.

Quote
Future sight: I've seen some lists playing it. My theory is that if it hits, you have to win that turn 90% of the times because there's lots of 0 cc mana artifacts and many draw 7s. But I'm not too sure you can cast it becaue of the triple U.

As you see, my list has one, but I am wondering whether to add a second.  You generally do win.  And the Brainstorms clear the way for any obstructions.  

Quote
Mox diamond: I play 12 land and I never seem to possibly play it. You only play 11 lands. The lone utility I've found it has is give you 2 free spells (one before will, 2nd after will).

I play 12 land; you miscounted.

I am curious, how do you SB?  I think I read somewhere that Bode said that they moved the Xantic Swarms to the maindeck.  BTW, can I see your list?

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Mith]

I've been experimenting with this deck as well...I'm glad to see someone started a topic  The problem with running Swarm maindeck is that they take up much-needed room. I've kept them in the sideboard (I tried out defense grid with Tinker main...it was ok, but I wasn't impressed enough).
I'm not too keen on running tendrils maindeck...if I did, I'd really want to run two just to be safe.

I've seen people experimenting with Regrowth in the board, but I've found Recoup to be enough most of the time.

My main question is about Future Sight...do you ever have problems resolving it?

[xrobx]

okay, i'm just trying this deck out for fun and it's kickin ass so far..question though; it may sound stupid, but if i want to wheel, i can sac my 4 lion's eyes diamonds in response, grab the mana, draw my seven, then go ape shit, correct??

anyways, on the deck issue:

is hunting pack really that necessary to play??
why not run 1 tendrils side and 1 main?

as many have said, and i've experienced, i can often 'just win' when i've got tendrils in my hand after i've gone off, i dont need to wish for it, and the hunting pack costs a shitload more, is harder to cast, and isn't REALLY good...i'd rather target the opponent then drop creatures and watch them WoG, keg, etc...

[Smmenen]

Quote (Mith @ Aug. 17 2003,10:04)My main question is about Future Sight...do you ever have problems resolving it?

Sometimes when I have Future Sight its like having any other draw 7 when you are about to Burning Wish for Will: you may just not need it.  However, there were times when I have Future Sight and I could cast it and it was amazing.

Generally casting it isn't the problem - its just a matter if you can do better things with your mana at any point in the game.  

@xbox: I do have one tendrils side and one main - look at my list.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Mith]

Tendrils main would work...but what I like about hunting pack is that it doesn't need as much storm juice. Still, if a suitable replacement for xantid swarm could be found, then I'd drop the tropical for a volcanic and forget green completely. But so far NOTHING has worked as well as the swarm.

[Smmenen]

So you have maindeck Swarms like Swens deck from Berlin?  Show us your list Myth.

Steve

[Necropotenza]

@Smmenen: you play 11 lands.
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

Here are the differences between my list and yours:
+1 Mind's desire
+1 Tropical island
+4 Polluted delta

-1 Future sight
-1 Mox Diamond
-4 City of brass

City of Brass: I like your choice on City of Brass over fetchlands, although the sinergy with Brainstorms is not to be denied. I'm usually struggling to get the right color of mana after I've been Wastlanded, so, I guess, Cities help here.

Future Sight: I still see Sight quite difficult to be played, 3 U is a lot for this deck.

Mind's desire: it deserves a spot maindeck. Your opponent is normally keeping their counters for Lotus and Wish and this is what makes Desire so good. You hold on your Mox, Rituals, Tutors... and eventually you have a 5 or 6 copy Desire.
You should test it maindeck.

Xantid swarm: I tested them i some games and I didn't like them very much. Mostly because they're effective only if they attack, and their utility is delayed by a whole turn. I prefer to rely on Duress and pray they don't have a FoW. Also, in my metagame Grow is always present and it does fairly well. I have to be able to deal with a Meddling mage naming, for example, Wish. If I have a Swarm in play, Balance won't help me at all.

Matchups I've tested

This matchup analysis is quite rough, but I've played a great number of games agains each archtype.

Hulk: pre-sideboard 50-50, post-sideboard 30-70 or worse (it is almost impossible to beat, 4 Duress, 4 FoW, 4 Drains, 1 BeB, 2or3 ReB)

Keeper: pre-sideboard 60-40, post-sideboard 40-60

Grow: pre-sideboard 70-30, post-sideboard 65-35

Sligh: 80-20

Reanimator: 70-30

Void/B-G Void: 70-30 (quite amazingly, my results with this matchup are very good)

I hope this helps.

Adria\n\n

[waSP]

Has anyone considered cutting the Duresses to play the Xantid Swarms in the maindeck.  It would free up some sideboard space that would be useful.  This would likely detract from the Keeper matchup but the current Keeper players aren't as good as they used to be (switching to smash).  It also would hurt the Stax and MUD matchups, but those aren't very good anyways.  From Steve's build he'd have to switch his mana base to a Fetchland configuration with Tropicals, something I think he should be doing anyways.  This seems like it would only be useful in a control metagame though.

Rack and Ruin could be useful in the sideboard as it would actually deal with their artifacts and would probably be stronger than Hurkyl's.  The strong thing about Mox Diamond that I've found is that it gives you colored mana.  With regards to Future Sight, I usually cast it and then win the next turn, it's not as efficient as a draw 7 in many matchups, but it's usually enough.\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

@Smmenen

It would be wise to completely disregard Long's original decklist - he has little land-based red mana, and Chromatic Spere/Gemstone Mine alone are not consistent enough to be the sole sources of red mana (even barring Lotii).  On the other hand, Bode's decklist is great, but he packs a lot of anti-hate that is often unnecessary.  I find the green splash to be mediocre, and Defense Grid has always been enough insurance against control for me so I eschew Swarm/Hunting Pack.  Here's my current list -

Burning Desire by V.G.B.

Lands - 12
2 x Polluted Delta
2 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Underground Sea
1 x Volcanic Island
1 x Badlands
3 x Gemstone Mine
1 x Tolarian Academy

Artifacts - 19
4 x Chromatic Sphere
4 x Lion's Eye Diamond
7 x SoLoMoxen
1 x Helm of Awakening
1 x Memory Jar
1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Lotus Petal

Spells - 25
1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Burning Wish
4 x Dark Ritual
1 x Demonic Consultation
1 x Demonic Tutor
2 x Duress
1 x Frantic Search
1 x Mind's Desire
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Timetwister
1 x Time Walk
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Wheel of Fortune
1 x Windfall

Enchantments - 4
1 x Fastbond
1 x Future Sight
1 x Necropotence
1 x Yawgmoth's Bargain

SB - 15
3 x Phyrexian Negator
1 x Balance
2 x Duress
1 x Mind Twist
1 x Replenish
1 x Shatterstorm
1 x Tendrils of Agony
1 x Time Spiral
1 x Tinker
1 x Vindicate
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Defense Grid

Here are some of my ruminations, and other points I would like to address:

Future Sight - has been awesome maindeck, and is a breeze to cast with LED mana and is also great to turn up with Mind's Desire.  Coincidentally, I have brought Fastbond back to the main because it has been so instrumental in helping the deck chug along and keep from stalling - the majority of turns I am near to going off, I turn up Tolarian Academy but have already played a land, and the ability to take a point and gain 6-12 blue mana from Academy is amazing.

Helm of Awakening - purely sick; play with it a few times and see how vicious it is with draw sevens and Will - makes going off a cinch.

Chromatic Sphere - as integral as these are to smoothing LED usage, a slot could perhaps be cut for added draw/tutorability.

Duress - my list above has 2 maindeck and 2 sideboarded; my only justification has been that the deck has been performing much better due to the greater number of threats I can employ which greatly improves mulliganing and the deck's speed, and Duress still crops up enough to serve it's purpose of safeguarding critical plays.  I am a lot more concerned with going combo than in disrupting my opponent, which only having 4 x Duress previously didn't impact much anyways.

Recoup - never friggin' used it, not even once in well over a hundred games.  It seems like it would help against control *in theory*, but if I'm going to blow a Wish for a recursive card, it's gonna be Will, Spiral, or Replenish.  Buh-bye.

The Green Splash - let's you use cards such as Reverent Silence, Xantid Swarm, and Hunting Pack, but for the short time I played with these cards, they slowed the deck down and didn't really make a difference in any matchups - nowadays the only non-scrubby decks I mainly play against are Keeper/OSE, BBS/Phid, FEB, and Suicide.

Cunning Wish - I have been toying with the idea of running this and putting instant bullets in the SB such as StP, Hunting Pack, Hurkyl's, etc., but I really have no reason to since I like my current configuration so much.  Just thought I'd toss that idea out their for you guys to nibble on.

If you have any other questions I guess you could post them here or PM me - this is the main deck I play in T1, even more than Rectal Agony, and I've tested just about every card you can imagine in this deck, from Reprocess to Upheaval.\n\n

[Smmenen]

You'll notice my base is Roland's - I have four Cities and four Gemstone's.  I really like my maindeck and was wondering if you my comment on it.  The one line I am going to draw for now is keeping the Desire in the Board - it has been fantastic for me there.

Let's keep the discussion here.

Stephen Menendian

[Womprax]

Quote (Smmenen @ Aug. 17 2003,17:46)For reference here is Long's and Bode's list (Bode got 2nd at Dulmen in July):

Falk Bernhard =/= Roland Bode

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=42

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote 1 The desire belongs in the SB after all, despite as nice as a
random desire in the MD is against decks like Hulk.
2) One tendrils in the main, no Hunting Pack.  The reasoning behind the one Tendrils is simple.  Enough of the time you will have it in hand to actually just win.  But that in itself shouldn't be sufficient to want to have it main deck.   The two reasons I have it are first often times I can deposit it in the Graveyard and cast it under Will for the Win.  Second, I can use a tutor from the 'yard to get it.  I see no reason to use Hunting Pack despite the fact that you only need 4 Storm for it to be lethal.

As for Bode's mana base, I have no comment since I have never played with or needed CoB.

The deck is quite degenerate. Any suggestions for the two slots? Is Fact or Fiction strong enough?  What about Time Spiral?

As for matchups I think that two almost autoloses are Welder Mud and Mono Blue.  WElder Mud becuase Sphere and Null Rod are the two cards that are autowin against this deck.  Welder MUD has Powder Keg and Wastelands which hurts alot.

I've been playing Desire main ever since Bode suggested it, and must absolutely insist that it resides maindeck.  The reasoning is:

1) You have just as many tutors that can fetch it maindeck as sideboard (D.M.V. Tutor and Demonic Consultation versus Burning Wish), and the fact that you can randomly turn it up either in your opening hand or with cantrips/draw is crucial because this deck absolutely depends on Mind's Desire.  

2) Like Rectal Agony, this deck has the potential to just play lots of draw and then kill with Tendrils without using Desire, but putting yourself in the mindset of trying to play Mind's Desire as soon and as often as possible will win you many more games than stuffing it sideboard and reducing it to only being fetchable with Burning Wish.  Burning Wish is a limited commodity, because once you use one, it is gone forever.  

Tendrils maindeck is an utter waste of a slot, since it is only usable as the kill condition (and the rare instance of Bargain being in play already, at which point you usually win anyways) and every other card in the deck is always playable, barring mana restrictions.  The only problem with the kill condition boarded is that you are utterly reliant on Burning Wish to supply the kill - and thus Burning Wish counts as 4 x kill cards maindecked.  5 or 6 kill cards are completely unnecessary, since "random kills" occured very sparingly when I played with maindeck Hunting Pack/Tendrils of Agony, and were usually when I was already on the road to victory.

Fact or Fiction could possibly replace a Sphere, but I'd honestly rather play Meditate, which is unnecessary.  One thing you might discuss instead is going the route Brenn Oosterbaan (sp?) did, which was to cut Timetwister/Wheel/Windfall/Jar for Academy Rector.

Have you tested versus monoblue?  I have, and while it has been tense sometimes, I usually always win and don't even have to sideboard most of the time.  They simply can't deal enough damage to kill you quickly enough, and all you have to do is hoard cards and whomp their ass with Mind's Desire.

Helm of Awakening is a boon versus Sphere of Resistance, and I would suggest possibly boarding several if you see a lot of MUD/$t4ks.\n\n

[Necropotenza]

@Smmenen: if you are going to grab Desire from your sideboard this means you already have played 3 or 4 spells this turn, or even more. My question is, why don't you pick your Will and win the game right there? Or, is it that you only pick Desire when you are against the wall fearing a Counter?

Please, let me know what your testing has proven.

[BigChuck]

I did some testing with the deck a while back, and the MD Mind's Desire just won me so many games I shouldn't have, and if I would have had to wish for it, then it wouldn't have been quite the same.

[Smmenen]

@Necro and VGB:

This was an important point that I was trying to make.  There were ALOT of times that I would be able to set up a huge turn two desire with awhole bunch of mana acceleration using Burning Wish + at least one LED, possibly more.  In that situation, if I had fetched Will I would have nothing.  That's why Desire is different from Will - this deck has such a high mana count (35) that you can Desire when you wouldn't be able to Will.

But the fact that you guys have all made the horrendous (possibly   ) mistake of moving Desire to the board, so you would have no idea what I am talking about.  

Fact is, if I was dropping tutors, I would be getting Bargain, not desire and just win from that.  

One of the strengths of this deck is that it doesn't absolutely need any deck or any particular path to victory.  That's why I disagree that I "absolutely need Desire to win" comment.  And not only that, I think that keeping it maindeck makes it more difficult to get as fast.  The tutors are slow - half the tutors put a card on top making them even slower.  I don't even want to discuss this anymore becuase its off the table as far as discussion for this deck is concerned.

@VGB: If you like Future Sight so much that you have added Fastbond, why not try two Sights??   Also, have you considered Crop Rotation?  I am definately not cutting down to two duress like some.  The only card that I feel is somewhat cuttable is the Chromatic Spheres.  As sad as it is, the primary benefit I get from them is ramping up the Storm count.  As I said before, but you didn't read evidently, the maindeck Tendrils often gets willed out of the yard becuase an LED has made me drop it- a main reason its there. But if I resolve Bargain or Future Sight, I often find myself tutoring it up.  That may or may not be compelling - but I feel the need to have a win condition maindeck is pretty strong, and I think tendrils is the best.  Once you cast Yawg will you ALWAYS have enough storm to be able to cast it.  

I am also interested in SB strategies for this deck:

Matchups

Hulk
The three cards you have to deal with against Hulk are Duress, FoW, and Drain.  I think all three cards are dealable, but the fact that Hulk has all three is a real threat.  With Brainstorm, the chance of Hulk having an opening FOW jumps 6% to 46%.  I don't think that Xantic Swarm is the best answer to Hulk.  I think the best answer is winning the die roll and playing first.  This bypasses Drain and makes FOW less likely as well as Duress possibly not even played.  Swarm seems just to slow down the deck.  Any SB suggestions for hulk?  Should we?

Stax/Welder Mud
The main threats here are Sphere, Wastelands, and Kegs among others.  If you are stupid enough to play out your opening moxen, then Tangle Wire will hurt alot too.  Again, these cards come down real fast, and I am not sure that a SB answer is better than the fact that you  have polluted/dilluted the maindeck with potential cards that slow you down.  Perhaps Hurkyl's Recall would be alright becuase it serves a dual function of speeding your combo out as well.  I am not sure what would be cut - perhaps Spheres.  

Rector Decks
I am not sure, but it seems to me that we are faster than these decks.  The threat of these decks comes in the discard and FOWs that they play.  The best answer seems to be Speed and multiplicity of threats.  

These are the decks that I would want to SB for.  As for others, I definately think a SB Balance and Mind Twist would help against some aggro decks.  Mind Twist is the best way to absolutely destroy Sligh - turn two mind twist for thier hand = game.  

Interesting deck.  I am going to enjoy testing this for the next week or so.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[waSP]

Has any thought been given to just dropping the Chromatic Spheres?  I never really liked them and they would free up some room in the deck.  Any thoughts on that.  I'm trying it and I end up goldfishing about a turn faster.

[the Luke]

I really don't know anything about this deck, but here are a couple of observations:

@VideoGameBoy: Without Tendrils/Hunting Grounds maindeck, what do you do against Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish? It looks like you just scoop.

@smmenen: Doesn't having Mind's Desire maindeck mean that you have an uncounterable threat so that you can go off even against a fist full of countermagic?

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote @VideoGameBoy: Without Tendrils/Hunting Grounds maindeck, what do you do against Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish? It looks like you just scoop.

Yeah, that's pretty much the case, except that the only guy around here who played EBA quit.  If he managed to drop a mage game one, then I would simply maindeck Tendrils and possibly Balance/Vindicate for game 2.  What you must realize about my deck is that I actually play it frequently, and I have it tweaked to my meta - which features the odd Arcane Laboratory and Stifle, and that's about it in terms of hate.

I don't think that fear of a random EBA/Meddling Mage matchup is worth maindecking sub-par cards.  If your meta has prevalent EBA (such as Hadley), then maindecked Tendrils/Hunting Pack would be the way to go.

@Smmenen - you are back at square one re-Mind's Desire maindeck/SB, unfortunately.  BigChuck put it best, I guess, with the following statement:

Quote I did some testing with the deck a while back, and the MD Mind's Desire just won me so many games I shouldn't have, and if I would have had to wish for it, then it wouldn't have been quite the same.

Mind's Desire is a card you can almost always count on (barring Stifle) to come from behind for you.  If you have a control opponent who is locking you down, you can't risk shooting a blind Burning Wish, because its apt to get countered.

Half of the maindeck-card-only tutors in the deck fetch Bargain, whereas all 8 can potentially fetch Mind's Desire (Consultation->Burning Wish->Desire).  If you have Desire sideboarded, then only 4 tutors can fetch it, period.  If you have Desire boarded, it will be eclipsed by Yawgmoth's Will, and you will find yourself rarely fetching Mind's Desire, which causes the deck to lose a ton of power.

If you approach building an optimal version of this deck with a closed mindset regarding such a key component, then how can you expect to make any progress?

@waSP

Quote Has any thought been given to just dropping the Chromatic Spheres?  I never really liked them and they would free up some room in the deck.  Any thoughts on that.  I'm trying it and I end up goldfishing about a turn faster.

So you goldfish before the game is even started?

Brenn Oosterbaan dropped Chromatic Sphere and draw sevens for Cabal Therapy and Academy Rectors, and placed fifth at Dulmen.  I personally think spheres are key to playing LED and Mind's Desire effectively, but the deck may perform just as well with maybe one (or possibly even two) fewer slots.  If you go Brenn's route, I would understand completely foregoing Chromatic Spheres due to the focus shifting to Bargain, but otherwise their role in the deck is a subtle yet powerful effect with LED and Brainstorm, and their mana fixing is just a bonus.  They also become lots of fun with a Helm in play.

Here's an idea - I doubt there is a deck anywhere that looks better suited to playing Tainted Pact.\n\n

[Smmenen]

VGB: I feel as if you haven't even read my posts.  Becuase at the very least you could do me the courtesy of replying to my arguments instead of spouting off the predigested arguments that you already have.  In essence, you are talking at me, not with me.

My argument against the maindeck desire: If I was going to tutor for something it would be Bargain; the tutors are slow (mystical and vamp), there are less tutors in the deck than Wishes; it is easier to access with a Wish.  

Your response: Having the maindeck desire just wins games, if you don't have it in the maindeck, then your deck loses some power.  And of course you are going to want to wish for Will.  

Your response in no way actually replied to the content of my post.  Otherwise you would have seen that I said that I DO wish for Desire quite a bit when Will isn't good.  When is that?  When you have a busted hand with alot of mana and few/no tutors draw except maybe one Brainstorms and you might have a duress.  In that situation, which I encounter quite alot given that the deck has 35 mana sources, a turn two desire for 5-6 is alot better than Yawg Will.  And that happens only with Desire in the SB.  

Stephen Menendian

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote My argument against the maindeck desire: If I was going to tutor for something it would be Bargain; the tutors are slow (mystical and vamp), there are less tutors in the deck than Wishes; it is easier to access with a Wish.

False.  Every tutor maindeck can fetch Desire, including Consultation (via Burning Wish).  Thus limiting your sole means of fetching Desire to Burning Wish actually cuts your options in half, as well as turning Desire into more of a situational card because it becomes dependent on whether you can support the cost, number of spells played, and happen to be clutching Burning Wish in your fist.  The maindeck tutors are not slow (re Mystical and Vampiric Tutor) - that is the main reason for the inclusion of Brainstorm and Chromatic Sphere.

Quote Your response: Having the maindeck desire just wins games, if you don't have it in the maindeck, then your deck loses some power.  And of course you are going to want to wish for Will.

Se my previous paragraph for my actual paraphrased response.  And yes, the majority of your Wishes are for Will (or in the case of my deck, I do Wish an inordinate number of times for Tinker).  

Quote Your response in no way actually replied to the content of my post.  Otherwise you would have seen that I said that I DO wish for Desire quite a bit when Will isn't good.  When is that?  When you have a busted hand with alot of mana and few/no tutors draw except maybe one Brainstorms and you might have a duress.  In that situation, which I encounter quite alot given that the deck has 35 mana sources, a turn two desire for 5-6 is alot better than Yawg Will.  And that happens only with Desire in the SB.

Actually, I did reply to your posts, and have completely absorbed all your commentary, which obviously seems to be from the vantage of somebody who has just started playing the deck.  You can just bull through some of the growing pains of how to effectively wield the deck, or you can accept my comments for what they are - the viewpoint of someone who has played the deck for a couple of months already.  My main points are this:

1) Mind's Desire is strictly better main.  Playing the deck competetively proves this.  You are more apt to get it in your hand using tricks that don't scream "counter me!" like Burning Wish does.  If you board Desire, you may get away with Wishing for it the first time, then every time after that, your opponent will be gunning for your wishes, which will seriously cramp your style.
2) If the green splash is warranted due to a hate environment - i.e. lots of Meddling Mages, Arcane Labs, Null Rods, and Stifles - you would probably simply be better off playing a different deck.  The deck does performs exceedingly well against other hate, such as Extract and Blood Moon, though.

edit - fixed some misspellings.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (VideoGameBoy @ Aug. 18 2003,07:50)

Quote My argument against the maindeck desire: If I was going to tutor for something it would be Bargain; the tutors are slow (mystical and vamp), there are less tutors in the deck than Wishes; it is easier to access with a Wish.

False.  Every tutor maindeck can fetch Desire, including Consultation (via Burning Wish).  Thus limiting your sole means of fetching Desire to Burning Wish actually cuts your options in half, as well as turning Desire into more of a situational card because it becomes dependent on whether you can support the cost, number of spells played, and happen to be clutching Burning Wish in your fist.  The maindeck tutors are not slow (re Mystical and Vampiric Tutor) - that is the main reason for the inclusion of Brainstorm and Chromatic Sphere.

I don't see how that cuts your optsion in half.  You have pointed out Mystical, Vamp, Demonic, anc Consultation as the four tutors.  There are four Wishes and I would probably never consult for Desire unless I was setting up the Perfect Desire.  And if you remove the Desire, then you have to Wish for it anyway!! Which defeats the entire purpose.  My concern, which you still haven't addressed, is that the early desire is just better than Will fetched via Burning Wish and cast via LEDs (Which you can't do if its maindeck as easily or at all if you have drawn it).  Take hypothetical hand:

LED, Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Dark Ritual, Duress, Gemstone Mine, Burning Wish, Brainstorm.  I get variations on hands like that all the time.  With that hand I would definately want to Wish up Desire, not Will.  

In theory I agree that the Brainstorm and Spheres should help alleviate the tutor problem, but they really dont becuase it takes up time and mana.  I use the Brainstorms aggressively to maximize my hand immediately for brokenness - not to suit some turn 2 or later tutoring.  

Stephen Menendian

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote I don't see how that cuts your optsion in half.  You have pointed out Mystical, Vamp, Demonic, anc Consultation as the four tutors.  There are four Wishes and I would probably never consult for Desire unless I was setting up the Perfect Desire.  And if you remove the Desire, then you have to Wish for it anyway!! Which defeats the entire purpose.

I Consult for Burning Wish, not Desire - and it is sometimes scalped, which lets you Wish for it.

Quote LED, Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Dark Ritual, Duress, Gemstone Mine, Burning Wish, Brainstorm.  I get variations on hands like that all the time.  With that hand I would definately want to Wish up Desire, not Will.

Except that Wishing up Time Spiral in that case doesn't really suck, either.  Citing hypothetical hands does nothing, since I can use similar: LED, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Duress, Tolarian Academy, Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm.

[Rico Suave]

You say Helm of Awakening is excellent, and you want to get rid of a Chromatic Sphere or two.  Well, why not cut Spheres for Helms?  Did they fall out of favor since previous Academy builds?

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote You say Helm of Awakening is excellent, and you want to get rid of a Chromatic Sphere or two.  Well, why not cut Spheres for Helms?  Did they fall out of favor since previous Academy builds?

Initially I played with 3, then I went down to 2, and then just for the hell of it (and to fit in Frantic Search) I went down to 1.  After doing a count of the generic cost of all the spells in the deck, the deck statistically benefits the most from just having a single Helm in play, because there are 11 spells with a single generic mana in the cost, and 8 with 2 or more (excluding Helm).  Thus having 2 Helms in play accomplishes very little, wherease 1 makes a huge difference.  The reasons I am comfortable running a single one maindeck is for the following reasons:

1) I have Tinker sideboarded, thus I can situationally fetch it.
2) Even as a 1-of, it crops up a lot.
3) I don't want to benefit my opponent too much.

Sphere has been really good to me, so I am loathe to cut it entirely, but if the proper cards are swapped in (such as with what Brenn does) then I don't see a problem with it.

[Smmenen]

Ok - looking at my List, what should I cut for the Desire, excluding the Tendrils?  The Tendrils has won me too many games and I find it to be a perfect fit.  I think you are right that a Time Spiral might be just as good in the SB in the Desire slot.  So I am going to test - but the question is what to cut.

Stephen Menendian

[jntemp777]

Helms

The deck really doesn't need helms with all of it's Lion's Eyes, and other mana sources.  IMHO I think it would just make it's bad match ups even worse.  

I've been testing this deck too and like many others I agree with Menendian, that maindecking Tendrils works better.
Then again, I also maindeck Desire, cause it seems to be for me, the opps I win card.