Perfecting Long's Burning Desire

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote The deck really doesn't need helms with all of it's Lion's Eyes, and other mana sources.  IMHO I think it would just make it's bad match ups even worse.  

I've been testing this deck too and like many others I agree with Menendian, that maindecking Tendrils works better.
Then again, I also maindeck Desire, cause it seems to be for me, the opps I win card.

I'm not stating that Helm is a must include, but pack it if you can get away with it; when it lands, it's sort of like Future Sight + Bargain, killer when they are apart, and absolutely sickening together.

Likewise I have no issue with a maindecked kill, wheter it be Tendrils or Hunting Pack.  As for the card to cut for the maindecked Desire, that would be Mox Diamond.  Your build only has 11 lands, so Diamond is pure suck anyways.  I had it in my original build (since it was net-decked from Long), and cut it after my first day of actual play.

Don't get me wrong, Smmenen - I'm not going to bash you for sideboarding Mind's Desire, because it does have its benefits.  I also originally sideboarded it, which was again mindlessly borrowed from Mike Long, and consequently I could rarely use it because my control opponents were very suspicious of each Burning Wish I cast.  As soon as I saw the letter Bode wrote to Long about maindecking Desire, I tried it out at the next FNM I attended, and have stuck with it since.\n\n

[Smmenen]

See that's the difference.  I started my testing with Bode's list - and so I started with maindeck desire and Hunting packs.  The list at the beginning of this thread is my tuned list from Bode's build.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[MoreFling]

I'm just wondering out loud here.

How is this deck any better than say, Neo-Academy?

If the carddrawer gets stopped (bearing it's not a mind's desire, which is hard to stop - which also means it SHOULD be maindecked), the deck just runs out of gas. I just think it's too random in its wins and losses to ever consider it.

However, I do think that Swen's list from Berlin was pretty good, with maindeck Swarms. They could stop some of the risks you are facing.\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote How is this deck any better than say, Neo-Academy?

If the carddrawer gets stopped (bearing it's not a mind's desire, which is hard to stop - which also means it SHOULD be maindecked), the deck just runs out of gas. I just think it's too random in its wins and losses to ever consider it.

To quote myself:

8  Demonic Tutors, 7 draw sevens, and 5 Black Lotuses would make any deck good, naja?

[MoreFling]

That, sir, is definately oversimplefying the deck.

A timely counter can easily catch you with your pants down, just like with neo-academy.

[Smmenen]

I think this is "Neo-Neo-Academy."  This is the heir to Academy.  It is, in the most complete sense of the word, a Full turn faster than D'Avanzo's Neo-Academy.   That's why it's called Burning Academy.

That is how it evades counters: it is faster.  If you can win before Drain mana becomes available, that is a big plus.  If you recall the old Keeper v. Neo-Academy games - those were tight games on both sides.  

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[MoreFling]

I take it your original list is still your current list? In that case, where do you get your protection from. Don't tell me 4 duress is all you have, since that's not a lot to go by.

Basicly, what I'm saying is: What do you think about the Swarms maindeck? I think they are needed to give the deck a shot at doing well. Sure, you can randomly go broken, but in general, it's too easy to disrupt.

Feel free to prove me wrong in an MWS session btw, any other day but today

[VideoGameBoy]

If somebody pilots this deck against a control player and is ever in a position where they can be caught with their pants down (i.e., casting Burning Wish or any other tutor and saccing LED in response) then they deserve to lose.  The proper play is to Burning Wish, then Brainstorm or stack some other ability/spell on top of the Wish, and then pass priority.  That way you have two potential threats, because your opponent hopefully doesn't know if you have Desire on top of your library or sideboarded, and will then take the opportunity to counter either Burning Wish or Brainstorm, which saves your hand or gives you a shot at bluffing your opponent into countering the wrong spell.  If he counters both, then heck, that's two less counters you have to worry about.

In my opinion this deck is far superior to Neo-Academy because it is much more flexible.  Without Academy, Neo-Academy loses.  Without Academy, Burning Academy shrugs and wins anyways, with Bargain/Tendrils, draw seven/Tendrils, or Will/Tendrils.\n\n

[MoreFling]

VGB: If you read my post, you would've noticed I'm not calling neo-academy because of reliance on academy. I'm making the comparison on basis of strategy, and a similar weakness.

Also, if your strategy is to Wish + Brainstorm, wouldn't that slow you down?

Like I said, this deck has the best shot at being broken, but also the best shot at die-ing down.

edit: then why is it better than a regular tendrils list? Rector or non-rector.\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote Also, if your strategy is to Wish + Brainstorm, wouldn't that slow you down?

Against control players, you have virtually all the time in the world to set up your combo, so why rush it and deplete your hand while they restock counters?  The odds are in your favor that you will be able to get more threats in hand than they have counters in short order if you simply keep drawing and play a few setup spells at first (Brainstorm, Sphere).  Not only that, even versus faster control decks like Hulk you have several turns in which to set up, so the focus does not have to be on comboing out as quickly as possible.  Playing conservatively versus control doesn't slow you down any more than waiting for a Swarm to become attack-ready.  Why give your opponent's creature removal a willing target, anyways?

Quote edit: then why is it better than a regular tendrils list? Rector or non-rector.

I can't say or prove decisively which is better.  All I can say is that after having played both decks (Rectal Agony and Burning Academy), this one requires more skill, tends to be a lot faster, and is a lot more fun to play due to its unpredictability (i.e., each game is drastically different).\n\n

[Smmenen]

Agreed.  This is a deck for good players - it allows skill to really shine through.  There are decreasingly few of those decks in the upper tiers of type one right now, so this is a shining example of what a deck can do in a good players hand.  This is the anti-tinker deck, so to speak.  

In my testing against Rector, perhaps the most surprising thing is that this deck is so fast that it establishes itself in spite of Rector's Discard and FOWs (should they be packing them).  

Type One is really fast right now.  The deck I fear the most is Welder MUD and I wonder if VGB has tested that matchup.

Stephen Menendian

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote Type One is really fast right now.  The deck I fear the most is Welder MUD and I wonder if VGB has tested that matchup.

Sorry, haven't played against it at all.  My gut tells me a SB with some of the following cards would be in order, though:

Goblin Welder
Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild
Gorilla Shaman
Helm of Awakening
Planar Void
Artifact Mutation
etc.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Smmenen @ Aug. 18 2003,13:47)I think this is "Neo-Neo-Academy."  This is the heir to Academy.  It is, in the most complete sense of the word, a Full turn faster than D'Avanzo's Neo-Academy.   That's why it's called Burning Academy.

That is how it evades counters: it is faster.  If you can win before Drain mana becomes available, that is a big plus.  If you recall the old Keeper v. Neo-Academy games - those were tight games on both sides.  

Stephen Menendian

But old Academy decks could just as easily have been faster, it's just that consistency wins out over pure speed.  Besides, the Academy vs. Keeper games were close because Academy slowed down and tried to force things through.  End of turn Meditate?  Don't counter and they get 4 cards.  Counter and they untap while you're tapped out.  It's just as effective as being fast.  

That was the line MoreFling was going down as well.  While I agree that D'Avanzo Academy can be improved upon, most of the cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, Future Sight, and Bargain weren't included because they are just really random and expensive.  In order to make it less random and cover the cost, the deck runs a hell of a lot more mana.  As a result, it has less business spells to force through and so it's much more prone to discard.  That's not exactly the greatest quality to have in today's environment.\n\n

[Smmenen]

I agree that statistically it should seem like this deck has less concentration of threats, however, its speed actually makes each threat more potent - thus I would say that it is just as threat potent as D'Avanzo Academy.   Don't forget, Chapin's Academy always had 4 Dark Rituals, Bargain, and Necro.

Stephen Menendian

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote That was the line MoreFling was going down as well.  While I agree that D'Avanzo Academy can be improved upon, most of the cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, Future Sight, and Bargain weren't included because they are just really random and expensive.  In order to make it less random and cover the cost, the deck runs a hell of a lot more mana.  As a result, it has less business spells to force through and so it's much more prone to discard.  That's not exactly the greatest quality to have in today's environment.

6 mana is rarely an issue on turn 1 or 2 with this deck - and cost is utterly meaningless when a card is flipped with Mind's Desire.  Have you played the deck at all?  I know it looks like a pile, but it's actually a freakin' machine.  Take the old Neo Academy and stick Mind's Desire in it, and what you end up with eventually is this deck, Lion's Eye Diamonds and all.

As for business spells, half the deck and the entire sideboard is full of them.  Much more than that, too, if you count how Moxen, Rituals, and other cheap spells interact with Storm cards.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Quote (VideoGameBoy @ Aug. 18 2003,22:16)6 mana is rarely an issue on turn 1 or 2 with this deck - and cost is utterly meaningless when a card is flipped with Mind's Desire.  Have you played the deck at all?  I know it looks like a pile, but it's actually a freakin' machine.  Take the old Neo Academy and stick Mind's Desire in it, and what you end up with eventually is this deck, Lion's Eye Diamonds and all.

I know that already.  I already said you had enough mana to cast those spells, but you missed my point.  Let me clarify, when you have 6-7 less spells and even less ways to protect your already low count of spells, it becomes much easier for your opponent to deal with your threats and thus shut the deck down.  Additionally, it's very difficult for a build like this to try and play around counters.

Smmenen, speed is a factor but Duress is a first turn play and Force is pretty damn quick too.  Broken hands happen, of course, but D'Avanzo Academy is not without plenty of first turn kills either.  

While simply racing Mana Drain is pretty cool, I'm still not convinced that this plays around it any better than Neo-Academy.  Even a turn two kill isn't fast enough to beat UU if they go first, and it's not like this deck is capable of effectively bleeding away counters.

I have a question for you.  Even assuming that the threat potency is the same, how does a build with Duress win out over a build with Force of Will?

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote While simply racing Mana Drain is pretty cool, I'm still not convinced that this plays around it any better than Neo-Academy.  Even a turn two kill isn't fast enough to beat UU if they go first, and it's not like this deck is capable of effectively bleeding away counters.

Actually, this deck bleeds counters like nobobdy's business, especially once your opponent's see how ignorant it is to ignore setup spells like Dark Ritual and Moxen, especially when you fire off a Mind's Desire for 5.

Against control, if you are playing like you want to end the game turn 2 you are being foolhardy; unless you have a god-hand I would sit back and play to win the game.

[Lupo]

Just for my own FYI, is there any sort of concensus as to what the ideal list would be?

I am leaning towards the desire in the main deck, as the arguments for it have been slightly (but not overwhelmingly) more persuasive

Thanks

LUPO

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I think, even though I hate this deck, I'll chime in.

Quote How is this deck any better than say, Neo-Academy?

It's faster.

Quote Basicly, what I'm saying is: What do you think about the Swarms maindeck? I think they are needed to give the deck a shot at doing well. Sure, you can randomly go broken, but in general, it's too easy to disrupt.

As your bad matchups are control-decks (maybe aside from stax, but I doubt that that really is a bad matchup, more later), I think Swarm is a really good choice, either MD or SB. You only loose to their Drains and FoWs, so why not make them play without those. It's not like your loosing to aggro because you now have swarms.

In a related note, I to think MD Desire and Hunting Pack/Tendrils are the better choice, as they give you another way to bypass counters. Because that's their main reason to be MD, I favor Hunting pack, as it can be lethal without you being able to resolve any kind of carddraw, while Tendrils can be kept from being lethal through counterspelling (you have a maximum of 7 spells + Pack/Tendrils in hand if you can't resolve carddraw). Oh, and Hunting Pack just randomly wins if it's the only business-spell on a starting hand of all mana, Tendrils doesn't, meaning you have to mulligan that hand.

Quote Against control players, you have virtually all the time in the world to set up your combo, so why rush it and deplete your hand while they restock counters?  The odds are in your favor that you will be able to get more threats in hand than they have counters in short order if you simply keep drawing and play a few setup spells at first (Brainstorm, Sphere).  Not only that, even versus faster control decks like Hulk you have several turns in which to set up, so the focus does not have to be on comboing out as quickly as possible.  Playing conservatively versus control doesn't slow you down any more than waiting for a Swarm to become attack-ready.  Why give your opponent's creature removal a willing target, anyways?

I'm speaking from a Shining-players point of view, so I'm not talking of a true control-matchup, but if TendrilsAcademy doesn't combo me out till turn 3, I usually win (baring Swarms and MD Storm-spells). So I wouldn't be waiting till I can stack correctly, but try to go off anyway, hoping there's no FoW.

Quote The deck I fear the most is Welder MUD and I wonder if VGB has tested that matchup.

As said before, I don't think any Stax/Mud-variant should be a really bad matchup. My goldfishing with this deck is like 60+% turn 1 and 2 kills. The only thing Workshop-decks can drop to really disrupt this deck are Spheres (or do I miss something?), as Smokestack and Wire shouldn't really effect you, if the deck is played correctly.
And even if 1st turn Sphere is dropped, they have to follow it with Stack, Keg or Wire next turn (ok, not that unlikely), as otherwise you just play your land + mana-artifacts turn one, untap them turn 2 and go Wish->Primitive Justice/Vindicate/whateveryourarrtifactremovalis and go off next turn.
Now I don't want to say Workshop-lock decks are a great matchup, but I don't see how they get as bad as you make them out.

[rant]
For a final rant, I really hate this deck. I don't think it's better than the other tier 1 (top, whatever) decks, but it is totally random. In my experience what determines the outcome of the matches is not that much what your opponent is playing (aside from multiple Null Rods or Pyrostatic Pillars) but mainly decided by the quality of your starting hand. This deck can even loose to bad aggro (but not on a regular basis), because the main way it looses anyway is crappy draws. It doesn't really have bad and good matchups in the usual sense, as it will usually beat through most decks with a good hand and loose horribly to just about anything with a bad one.
And if there is any thing this deck definitly is not a model for, it's consistency.
I believe a deck like this is the worst thing to exist, as it's not strong enough to really warrant restrictions but it's distorting the RESULTS (not the environment) of tourneys nonetheless, as it just randomizes the results of all opponents it is played against. It looses to bad decks and good decks alike, everything decided by this decks starting hand and topdecking.
[/end of rant]
(Disclaimer: Yes, I playtested the deck some time. No, I'm not playing it a real lot, most of my experience comes from watching it being played and playing against it as well as goldfishing. )\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote For a final rant, I really hate this deck. I don't think it's better than the other tier 1 (top, whatever) decks, but it is totally random. In my experience what determines the outcome of the matches is not that much what your opponent is playing (aside from multiple Null Rods or Pyrostatic Pillars) but mainly decided by the quality of your starting hand. This deck can even loose to bad aggro (but not on a regular basis), because the main way it looses anyway is crappy draws. It doesn't really have bad and good matchups in the usual sense, as it will usually beat through most decks with a good hand and loose horribly to just about anything with a bad one.
And if there is any thing this deck definitly is not a model for, it's consistency.

To which build are you referring, specifically?

Also, what do you think could improve the consistency of the deck?  The deck I list on the first page has very little issues in terms of consistency, but does tend to get rolled by hate decks (Sphere, Pillar, Mage) if I don't get a turn 2 kill hand - in which case I probably should have scouted the meta better and played a different deck.\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote To which build are you referring, specifically?

The version used by the guys from Minden (Roland, Swen, Benjamin R.), Swen used it to place third at worlds T1.

Quote Also, what do you think could improve the consistency of the deck?

I think the decks inconsistency is based on it's entire structure, the deck is not meant to be consistent, it's meant to be broken (like NeoAcademy or BuddeTrix before it). Because of that it plays a lot of mana (32+ cards dedicated to mana production or recoloring), a lot of situational cards (LED, Sphere, Pack) and a lot of cards whose result/effect is based on randomness (Draw7s, Desire). The only way to improve this decks cosistency would be to have WotC print more cheap draw7s or unrestrict Desire/Wheel, etc, so that you could increase the odds to draw into another drawspell with your draw7s/have one on your starting hand.  
When I say it's inconsitent I don't mean it doesn't work on a regular basis (as said, i get ~60% 2nd turn kills while goldfishing), but it craps out often enough (compared to other decks) to give that "random-loss" feeling. (yesterday a friend nearly lost to White Weenie, of all things, because his Wheel brought up nothing but more mana and he kept topdecking mana till the last possible turn).
As noted there, the comment you quoted was a rant, not (usefull) criticism how to improve the deck, so don't let me try to change the inherent incositency that I think is there.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (VideoGameBoy @ Aug. 19 2003,08:20)Actually, this deck bleeds counters like nobobdy's business, especially once your opponent's see how ignorant it is to ignore setup spells like Dark Ritual and Moxen, especially when you fire off a Mind's Desire for 5.

Against control, if you are playing like you want to end the game turn 2 you are being foolhardy; unless you have a god-hand I would sit back and play to win the game.

Nobody is saying that Neo-Academy can't include Mind's Desire either for the same effect.

And yes, against control the idea is to play the game to win, in other words slow down.  I was just wondering how these builds fulfill that strategy better than Neo-Academy.  The response I got was "it's fast" and while that is true, that's not even the game-plan against control.  

Quote

Quote How is this deck any better than say, Neo-Academy?

It's faster.

But then you go on to say it even loses to bad decks because of inconsistency issues.  I never saw Neo-Academy doing that.

Really, being a turn faster means nothing when the slower version is still faster than everything else in the field.

[VideoGameBoy]

@Rico

What makes Burning Academy so strong is the fact that it has uncounterable kills that turn setup spells into counterspell bait - which not even Neo-Academy can do.  The kill is a full turn faster even with so-so hands, and the deck only needs employ minimal disruption to ensure going off.

Against Neo-Academy, counter the Draw Sevens, Waste Academy, or counter the engine cards - Helm, Candelabra, MoM, etc, and the deck is helpless and quickly runs out of gas.  This doesn't work against Burning Academy, because the whole deck is focused on playing cards, drawing cards, and generating mana, which often has no clear-cut target to disrupt - no single card is key to the success of the deck.

Neo-Academy is dead.  Mind's Desire killed it.

The wave of the future is Burning Academy and The Shining.\n\n

[Rakso]

Actually, barring topdecked Mind's Desire, you really can still go with watch him play a ton of mana sources and sac LED then counter the Draw 7, tutor or Burning Wish, and then watch him topdeck mana, mana, mana. You're right about the brokenness, though; not every deck has counters to execute the above strategy with.

[Smmenen]

Quote As your bad matchups are control-decks (maybe aside from stax, but I doubt that that really is a bad matchup, more later), I think Swarm is a really good choice, either MD or SB. You only loose to their Drains and FoWs, so why not make them play without those. It's not like your loosing to aggro because you now have swarms.

@Mons:

I agree - I don't think Stax is necessarily a bad matchup - but I do think that Welder Mud is.  There are a number of differences in the builds that make the outcome significantly different.

Steve

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Rakso @ Aug. 19 2003,21:59)Actually, barring topdecked Mind's Desire, you really can still go with watch him play a ton of mana sources and sac LED then counter the Draw 7, tutor or Burning Wish, and then watch him topdeck mana, mana, mana. You're right about the brokenness, though; not every deck has counters to execute the above strategy with.

That's my point as well.  Except more than just counters will stop that kind of play.  

Neo-Academy is an older deck that needs updating.  I simply disagree that this is the best evolution of it, because it's so fragile to everything, including itself.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Rakso @ Aug. 19 2003,18:59)Actually, barring topdecked Mind's Desire, you really can still go with watch him play a ton of mana sources and sac LED then counter the Draw 7, tutor or Burning Wish, and then watch him topdeck mana, mana, mana. You're right about the brokenness, though; not every deck has counters to execute the above strategy with.

Quote (VideoGameBoy @ Aug. 18 2003,10:56)If somebody pilots this deck against a control player and is ever in a position where they can be caught with their pants down (i.e., casting Burning Wish or any other tutor and saccing LED in response) then they deserve to lose.  The proper play is to Burning Wish, then Brainstorm or stack some other ability/spell on top of the Wish, and then pass priority.  That way you have two potential threats, because your opponent hopefully doesn't know if you have Desire on top of your library or sideboarded, and will then take the opportunity to counter either Burning Wish or Brainstorm, which saves your hand or gives you a shot at bluffing your opponent into countering the wrong spell.  If he counters both, then heck, that's two less counters you have to worry about.

The situation Rakso describes is often easily avoided by playing correctly, such as using the method I illustrate above.  These sort of things can only be learned by actually playing playing the deck, as they are not intuitive.  There are many stack tricks and deck manipulation tools available to somebody piloting this deck, and it is tiresome to try to list them all.  Most key, though, is the fact that you can often easily choose to pitch your entire hand to LED if you know you will come into Hunting Pack or Mind's Desire via an uncounterable means, such as Chromatic Sphere.

Quote Neo-Academy is an older deck that needs updating.  I simply disagree that this is the best evolution of it, because it's so fragile to everything, including itself.

A valid point, but Neo-Academy isn't a rock, either.  It is my belief that if you start with Neo-Academy as a base, that you will either end up with combo/control in the form of the Shining, or pure combo in the form of Burning Academy.  Neo-Academy simply has too complex an engine and far too many situational and sub-par cards to make it out-control modern control or out-combo modern combo.

[Smmenen]

Rico - You should try the list before you make those conclusions.  In my Metagame Article I described this deck in much the same ways that you did, but I realize now I was speaking from ignorance - an analysis of a deck without actually seeing it in action.

BTW: I did some testing against Sligh I had three turn one kills in a row!  It was absolutely insane.  

Steve\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote @Mons:

I agree - I don't think Stax is necessarily a bad matchup - but I do think that Welder Mud is.  There are a number of differences in the builds that make the outcome significantly different.

Steve

Am I missing something? Looking at the Welder-MUD listing in your article, I see the same threats I mentioned in my longer statement about why I think Workshop-Prison decks shouldn't be a really bad matchup for BurningAcademy. Without a Sphere in your starting hand your almost sure to loose, playing Stax, MUD or WelderMUD doesn't make a difference there, as I can see it. If I'm really missing something, could you enlighten me?

Quote Actually, barring topdecked Mind's Desire, you really can still go with watch him play a ton of mana sources and sac LED then counter the Draw 7, tutor or Burning Wish, and then watch him topdeck mana, mana, mana. You're right about the brokenness, though; not every deck has counters to execute the above strategy with.

Well, if he wins the die-roll, you can't even keep a hand that doesn't have FoW or Duress, better backep up with carddraw or Mana Drains. Not a nice situation. And I really hate to say that, but without the real fast kill Shining and Hulk provide, I don't see control having a favorable matchup, there's just to much to counter.

Quote But then you go on to say it even loses to bad decks because of inconsistency issues.  I never saw Neo-Academy doing that.

Even Academy sometimes does. And aside from that, in opposite to academy this deck mainly looses to incosistency, but rarely to anything but  Duress/FoW first turn with an additional Counter second turn (or first turn Null Rod/Pillar).

Quote Really, being a turn faster means nothing when the slower version is still faster than everything else in the field.

Being a turn faster means you can regularly kill before your opponent is able to even cast Mana Drain. That's a really big issue, as you quite often don't have to worry about Drains, because they have to be pitched away if they want to live till they have two mana. And remember, I'm seeing this of the other side of the table. Simply put, I'd much rather have NeoAcademy paired against me than this. Against Academy I win more often.\n\n

[erik]

After testing this deck for a while, I can't help but wondering why Dark Ritual and Lion's Eye Diamond aren't restricted. Now before you point your flamethrowers at me please think about it for a moment. LED is situational enough to only be played in two specific decks, but that hasn't kept other situational cards from being restricted in the past. In this deck, it's what unrestricted petal/diamond would be to classic Academy and then some. When it comes to Ritual, it's a four-of in all of the top tier combo decks (long, tendrils, trix), and it's boost to combo was enough to restrict it in extended (yes, necro should have been the first target). Restricting it would be a death-blow to sui, but the restriction of Gush killed a lower-tier deck as well and we all know Gush had to go regardless. Wizards will never errata storm, so if Ritual isn't restricted I think we'll just have to accept tendrils as the best kill card in t1 along with Tog for the forseeable future. It wouldn't affect the Shining, but I think most people are fine with that as you at least get to play more than one land against that deck...

Thoughts?