Post-Mirrodin Metagame Analysis and Discussion

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Actually steve is exaclty right.  It's the difference between solitare and blackjack.  In the case of solitare you don't actually need an opponent at all, but in the case of blackjack you do (you know, to see if the dealer hits 21 etc).  That fact that your opponent has 1 turn changes the entire dynamic of type 1 so much that it really cannot be compared to solitare at all, it's clearly much more like blackjack.  The humorous thing about this is I am being completely serious.

Obviously both games are very little like what magic was intended to be, but such is type 1 and many people enjoy things as they are.  And I can assure you that it will continue to be this way in the future regardless of what the DCI does concerning restrictions, quite frankly restrictions won't help at this point, trust me .  Type 1 is a combo defined format and it will forever be unless drastic measures are taken by WotC to change things.

Quote Furthermore... I wouldn't mind playing t1.5 if I didn't like type 1 better. Why? Because it gives access to cards that I may have or want to use, and the same applies to other players who might have full sets of power, who want to play with them and dislike the state of the format. Are you going to suggest that them too should bow down to a game that doesn't stimulate player interaction and longer games?

 
Bastian, you're talking about sentimental attachments to cards that were largely to blame for the degeneracy of the format you love to begin with.  I think players need to realize that they simply can't have everything, ie. you can't have such a plethora of degenerate cards like the power 9 and others running around, and still have a format that is not degenerate.  This is especially true when you have new degenerate cards being introduced to the format via new sets with nothing ever going away.  These players who still want to play magic as it was originally intended AND still want to use cards that they've grown attached to need to realize that WotC has created a format for them; it's called 1.5.  

Obviously cards like ancestral recall and black lotus are not going to be playable in the 1.5 format, as they are primary examples of the kind of cards that allow for degeneracy.  No, if you want to play fixed non-combo-driven magic with old cards you've grown to know and love, play 1.5.  I've been playing 1.5 for almost 2 years now on the weekends at my local card shop, and I LOVE it!!!  It really is very refreshing to be able to play a deck like white weenie and not just lose on the second turn AND even have a realistic shot at winning the tournament.  Also, I don't have to design my decks around having to support artifact hate, it's great!!!

Bastian, I used to be one of the greatest supporters of fixing the format and making player interaction more relavent.  But honestly, the more I play type 1, the more I realize I was just fighting the tide.  This just isn't the format for people who want to play highly interactive games, but that's ok because 1.5 exists and it really is the place for people that have a problem with this fact.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Bastian:
I don't agree on either count.  It's rarely that straightforward - if you are playing a deck that has no turn one activity - either disruption, countermagic, or other proactive elements - you aren't going to survive in extended let alone type one.  If you let Dragon go turn one bazaar, turn two Mox, Land, Animate without having done anything in between you deserve to lose.  All decks need *something* whether it be Wasteland, Stifle, Purge, STP, Force of Will, Mox-Land, Leak, Duress, etc - you get the idea?  I think the point I am making is that there is no real difference to a large degree between a deck that wins on turn 2 Dragon, and a deck that wins on turn 6 like Gencon Tog in terms of what you do.  You can't sit there and do nothing against good control decks, just like you can't against Comob, Mask, or Prison.  Do you see what I'm saying?  Each deck needs to affect the board by turn one - I don't care what you are playing.  That doesn't mean you have to win or prevent an opponent from winning, but you have to do *something*.  

I simply do not think these games are short at all or lack interaction - what they are is decompressed.  The games are just as long and involve just as many *key* decisions as other formats - the only difference is that the format is decompressed so that instead of going: land, go, land, go, land, go, land, bear, land grey ogre like in limited - the decisions are front loaded into the first few turns instead of being made on turn 8.  That doesn't mean there is actually less interactivity or a shorter game - it just means there are less actual turns - but possibly more decisions.   The interactivity comes in playing around your opponents strategy - cards you assume they have, even though they might not - Stifle, FoW, Blessing, etc.  The primary effect of having fewer turns is simply that decks need to be consistent becuase you are more likely relying on your first few cards - this makes mulliganing more important.

Steve\n\n

[Saucemaster]

Quote Why? Because it gives access to cards that I may have or want to use, and the same applies to other players who might have full sets of power, who want to play with them and dislike the state of the format. Are you going to suggest that them too should bow down to a game that doesn't stimulate player interaction and longer games?

The point isn't that they SHOULD or SHOULDN'T enjoy a format that's all combo and combo-hate; the point that PTW, Smmenen, and many others have been trying to make is that whether anyone likes it or not, that's just what Type 1 IS.  It's the nature of the beast, and you can restrict everything you want, but there's no way to stop it without bannings.  Lots and lots of bannings.  Given this, the only option we have is to either: a) ban the hell out of all the broken cards as they keep being discovered and abused (which ends up turning the format into--you guessed it--Type 1.5, because you sure as hell aren't going to be able to play with cards like the Moxen and Ancestral Recall); or b) stop worrying and learn to love the bomb.

In other words, those that want the metagame triangle to work out the way it "should", i.e. the way it used to, are basically just waxing nostalgic; at this point, the format will never be that again unless the very nature of the format is changed, in effect making it a different format.  What is up for debate here is whether restrictions CAN sufficiently reduce the speed of the format.  I agree with PTW and Smmenen that they can't, but if you disagree, argue it.  If you agree and think that THEREFORE we need to start banning in order to fix the format, then there is one very important question that you honestly need to consider: why not just play 1.5?  Because that's what the format will have to become.

EDIT: Okay, PTW replied while I was writing.  Beat me to it.  Also, let it be known that I love Blackjack.\n\n

[Eastman]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the post-mirrodin meta?


This recurring broad discussion on the 'state of type 1' that no amount of locked threads can seem to kill completely has popped up again...

This isn't a topic that can generate useful discourse (if you doubt me do a search on 'critical mass'). Those of you who still wish to discuss it ought to open an appropriate thread so you at least have some thesis to argue convictions on.

This is the E.V. forum... shouldn't we be able to keep discussion on topic ?  Here we're supposed to be discussing the current meta, not some broad generalized future meta.\n\n

[Thug]

I think most people just want it to be a new combo-winter too much, while there's really no combo deck, or any deck at all that is clearly the best.

Quote Type 1 should be combo, and combo hate, period.  And if you take a close look at the current decks to beat, I think you'll find that is exactly the case.  If you want a breakdown of the metagame ala the old "rock, paper, scissors" you first have to start by classifiying each deck by whether they are themselves combo, or combo hate.

Fish: combo hate
chalice keeper: combo hate
Long.dec: combo
dragon: combo
workshop: combo + combo hate

It not hard to call a deck combo hate if basicly every utility card is hate against dragon. I think mana-denial does not equal combo hate, and therefore fish and keeper should not be called combo hate. And workshop hardest matchup is Dragon, so calling the deck combo hate is just ridicilous.

...

Seriously, it looks like The Netherlands don't belong to this world (yes, I know I am going to be quoted on this  )
Our current metagame is not combo and combo-hate at all.

Long is non-existent because it has tough matchups against Keeper, Dragon, Workshop and Fish. Dragon is the current best combo deck, but is far from dominating the format.

Keeper once again is a top-tier deck, mainly because it has a very good matchup against dragon and no real bad matchups. (Well, some excist, but those archetypes are almost non excistent.)

Workshop is not played much, but still is a decent option since it has a good matchup against Keeper (yes, it does!!), but the deck does have problems with Dragon and Fish.

Fish is better than it has ever been, it has a good matchup against nature against Keeper and packs tools to handle Dragon. The sideboard makes the Workshop matchup also playable. The weakest point of this deck is any deck with more than four creatures in it, and because of this fish will never be dominatig.

Koen

[Bastian]

Interactivity demands actions on both sides, and not just guessing what the opponent may or not play. It's in the nature of any game. Either way I see where this is going.

I don't believe that this is what type 1 or Magic in general should be. I think it's highly distorted, but then again this is type 1... and I'm out of here. I always respected everyone's opinions (depending on how respectful they were of others), and I have been posting less and less since the format has been becoming... stupid. A format in which everygame can be decided in a turn or two, and the interaction goes as far as guessing what my opponent may or not have and react in those couple of turns hardly makes my idea of a decent game. It's not.

I'm going to stick for just enough time to see what happens Monday. As for me... between my college course, which is far more important than any of this, and a format that's too degenerate to hold any interest, I am giving up on this game. Permanently.

Was going to announce it eventually, so I just made it now. Cya.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

I didn't realize we were getting so off topic.  All my comments are applicable to the current type 1 post mirrodin metagame.  I've just been extending my analysis a bit further than mirrodin's release date to the present so as to include what I predict the post-post mirrodin metagame will continue to look like, ie. a combo defined metagame.

I will take responsibility however for anything off topic that has been said since I probably instigated by saying:

Quote Type 1 should be combo, and combo hate, period.

So, my bad   Shoulds and oughts about the metagame are best left for a different thread, not one dedicated to assessing things as they actually are.

*side note, everything regarding critical mass etc. is very relevant to dominant combo builds emerging in the post mirrodin meta since i think you'll find that come monday WotC will have a big problem when they find that restrictions are not enough to wound long.dec significantly (and that's IF anything gets restricted to begin with).

Quote I think most people just want it to be a new combo-winter too much, while there's really no combo deck, or any deck at all that is clearly the best.

There doesn't need to be a "best" deck that dominates the field in order for combo to define the metagame, which it does.  Any deck a that I bring to a tournament must essentially adhere to one of these principles in today's post mirrodin metagame:

A) I can consistently attempt a win on the 1st or 2nd turn.
B) I can consistently stop a 1st and 2nd turn attempt at winning.
C) I can do both A and B but with less consistency than either.

Combo, anti-combo, and combo/anti-combo.  I could just as easily have said speed, anti-speed, or speed/anti-speed.  I could also have said aggressive, defensive, and aggressive/defensive.  I chose the verbage "combo vs anti-combo" because I wanted to make sure that everyone realizes that THIS IS A COMBO DEFINED FORMAT NOW.  I feel that this transition was so subtle that no one realized it, but it did happen and we as vintage players need to open our eyes to it.  

I also selected the "combo vs anti-combo" verbage because in a game of MTG as it was intended, no player should ever have a shot at winning by turn 1 or 2.  It is only through unforeseen card combinations, rules loopholes, and excessive  amounts of degenerate cards that players are now capable of such feats.  Read, that again.  Unforeseen card combos, rules loopholes, and excessive amounts of degenerate cards: all of these things are the hallmarks of the combo deck.



@Bastian: Give it a little while before you decide to quit magic, or at least look into 1.5.  I know I'll be playing lots of 1.5   And that actually is a format that could benefit from seasoned players who enjoy designing interactive decks.

[Smmenen]

@Bastian, if you are going to quit magic becuase of your unhappiness with Vintage, I think you've set yourself up for dissapointment.

People tell me that during Urza Block people who played magic quasi-casually dropped out like flies since the format was so disgustingly fast.  People who would play once a week just for a night with some friends quit.  Vintage is the format that is supposed to the fastest and most degerate.  It's not a format for the casual, or even the quasi-casual - it is a format for people who Enjoy brutal decks and demoralizing games.  

For too long, Type One has somehow become a home for people who build random elf decks or a casual deck.  Type One is a tournament format, not a casual format.  Type One offers only one thing that other formats, besides extended temporarlily, lack: Brutal, sick, speed and brokeness.  

For skill, almost any format is more strenuous if only because the competition is more stiff - which is one of the reasons I like 1.x right now.  If your honestly quitting becuase you don't like type one, I have no sympathy simply becuase there is far more to magic than just type one - and anyone quitting just becuase they don't like type one, it makes me question thier dedication/passion for the game in the first place.  

Now it may be that you just liked playing type one becuase you liked the cards, but there is really nothing inherently special about type one.  After all there are 6 solid formats to choose from.  Most people play Limited anyway.  I just think that quitting becuase of how One format shakes out is jumping the gun.

Steve Menendian\n\n

[Bastian]

I don't want to go off topic, so I'll try to make this as short as possible.

For a long time it was hard to aknowledge what type 1 was. After Mirrodin I became aware of one thing: type 1 is not meant to be a budget format. Sure not all metagames are like those we see in Germany, not everyone has full sets of power, but they are the perfect example of what type 1 is.

When I moved on to type 1 some years ago I liked the way the format was. It had its share of brokeness and the format was balanced between the old paper-scissors-rock trilogy. Many may complain that the days when blue based control was dominant but I liked it back then because it was much more fun than the format currently is.

Type 1 should allow broken things to happen, like Yawgmoth's Will into Ancestral, Time Walk, etc... or being able to make a really early win with a good draw, etc... The moment that the outcome of games can be decided in the first couple of turns of the game, even if it doesn't end right there, is stupid good. I disagree with that and I'm pretty sure that the people who make this game do too. But most type 1 players seem happy with it right now so I respect it.

It is only natural that the format evolves, wether a player likes it or not and it has evolved into something I dislike. A lot. Type 1 eventually reaches critical card mass and, no matter the ammount of restricted cards it's meant to be dominated by combo unless mass bannings would happen (which I don't see happening).

Let me just put this clear: I think that competitive and fun are possible. I have never looked into type 1 so I could play some thallid deck and be able to win with it I like to win just as much as the next guy, I just think that winning doesn't necessarily mean I won't have fun and that having fun doesn't necessarily mean going casual.

Quote  If your honestly quitting becuase you don't like type one, I have no sympathy simply becuase there is far more to magic than just type one - and anyone quitting just becuase they don't like type one, it makes me question thier dedication/passion for the game in the first place.  

I'm repeating this... which you probably didn't read in the first place. I'm quitting because of two reasons: I don't like the way the format currently is. College is currently demanding too much time from me and it's probably not going to get any better from now on. I played type 1, and I am giving up on the format. I am also going to cease playing Magic because college is taking me up too much time. First my academic life, and then just about anything else.

I may end up showing in some other format. Wether that actually happens or not it'll depend on my mood and remaining time to dedicate myself to it.
I'll be around at least, until tomorrow. I'm very curious about what's in hold for the format, although I don't set my hopes too high.

Sorry for going off topic for so long. I just felt like I had to make it clear my reasons for abandoning the game right now.\n\n