Powerless Chalice Black// Disruption - 294 Hypnotic Spect...

[MoonShine]

Powerless Chalice Black

// Disruption - 29
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void

// Threats - 8
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Phyrexian Negator

// Broken - 4
3 Spoils of the Vault  z0rs
1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Mana - 19
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
13 Swamp


What do you think?

 

[Jeikki]

Why not play Demonic Tutor over Spoils?

[BreathWeapon]

Spoils is not better than Demonic Tutor or Demonic Consultation, cut them. You want Necro, Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation in their place.

Hypnotic Specter is dead in this format, Nantuko Shade is significantly better in his place. The Specter has poor synergy with Chalice as well. I know it hurts to admit that, but just let him go.

[g0dzillA]

I have to agree. The addition of Spoils is counterintuitive to the deck's paradigm. Likely the most common setting for Chalice will be 1, so adding 3 more 1cc spells to the deck is a bad idea. Originally, Zherbus was against even including Consultation for this reason. As for Demonic Tutor, it is not only the best tutor ever printed, but its 2cc is actually an advantage in this deck.

[EVAxKPx@!]

I would run spoils over consultation, but I would probably go with 1 Tutor, 1 Necro, 1 spoils rather than 3 spoils. Also, if you're going to change to shades cut the lotus petal for swamp, god so many games I wish I just had a swamp.

[g0dzillA]

Quote (EVAxKPx@! @ Nov. 22 2003,15:45)I would run spoils over consultation, but I would probably go with 1 Tutor, 1 Necro, 1 spoils rather than 3 spoils. Also, if you're going to change to shades cut the lotus petal for swamp, god so many games I wish I just had a swamp.

Spoils is better than Consultation in a deck like Long, where the searched for card is going to win you the game that turn. In an aggro/control deck like Chalice Black, no card you search for is going to win the game right then and there (with the possible exception of the restricted YawgWill), which means that Spoils' drawback is much riskier in a deck like this than Consultation.

The Petal is in there in order to resolve an early Chalice or Sphere as quickly as possible, and is likely the right choice.

[MoonShine]

Updated Version: Thanks for the quick responses.

Powerless Chalice Black

// Disruption - 25
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void

// Threats - 12
4 Mishra's Factory or Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

// Broken - 4
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Mana - 18
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
13 Swamp

@BreathWeapon -- Ya, It is hard to let go of Hypnotic; but why is he 'useless'? and have poor synergy with Chalice? If Hippie has poor synergy with Chalice; wouldnt Hymn?

@g0dzillA -- Thanks.

@EVAxKPx@! -- Overruled by g0dzillA

But seriously; why should Hypnotic Specter be included anymore?

[g0dzillA]

Quote (MoonShine @ Nov. 22 2003,16:44)Ya, It is hard to let go of Hypnotic; but why is he 'useless'? and have poor synergy with Chalice? If Hippie has poor synergy with Chalice; wouldnt Hymn?

But seriously; why should Hypnotic Specter be included anymore?

It's not necessarily that Hyppie has poor synergy with Chalice that makes him a bad choice for the deck. If there were more room, he might be a reasonable choice. But as it stands, Shade and Factory are both much better choices for this type of deck. Shade because you need another heavy hitter to compliment your Negators. Without them, your clock is simply too slow. Mishra's Factory because it has excellent synergy with Sphere of Resistance. Free creatures under Sphere = good times.

Simply, the Hyppie is good, but the alternatives are much better. He doesn't hit hard enough, and his disruption is often redundant or superfluous.

[BuboniC]

A very overlooked old card is Chains of Mephistopheles, I have played Keeper, Long, and U/B/W control against it and it is one hoser of a card. Long LOSES too chains, all the draw effects become useless and brainstorm turns into a horrible card, I strongly suggest some in the SB. Hippie is too slow in the current meta. Shades are a much better replacement. I dont know if Zherbus uses Factory's in his, but i think they are very suboptimal, they have no synergy with shade, they are nonbasic, and several decks pack 4-5 strip effects. also with the 8 cards with BB in their casting cost, it makes it downright bad. I'd like him too change my opinion- but i think you could just kill with shades/Gators.

[snotball007]

Quote (BuboniC @ Nov. 22 2003,20:01)I dont know if Zherbus uses Factory's in his, but i think they are very suboptimal.

Original version did, mainly because it was a type of void lockdown.

Also, this isnt a big deal or anything. But please drop the petal. slows you down too much in the long run. Atleast that is my opininon. And hippie is actually too slow for the current metagame, not as powerful as he once used to be.

Trying to get cards for chalice black is as hard to get as   .

[Sytupal]

Neither Mishra's or Hyppies.  Wretchs!

Spoils is simply bad.  Demonic Tutor.... Yawgwill... Necropotence.  All you need.  I don't even like consultation.  

The petal is even debatable.  Strong manabase, not a one swamp, one petal land.   Plus, Now adays, chalice black variants are only really viable in type 1 big tournaments.  Playing a chalice for any more than zero on first turn spells doom for such a player in magic.  Agh!  swamp count is "mo" low like "wow!"
16. ahem.. at least......  

-Richard

[g0dzillA]

Factories have mad synergy with this deck. They play for free under a Sphere, are completely unaffected by Chalice, and provide extra mana in a deck that can use it. Wretches definitely belong in the board, but I don't think they're a suitable replacement for Factory.

As for Lotus Petal, it is a debatable card, but Zherbus' original build included it because it ups the likelihood of a first turn Chalice for one (or two with a Riutal), which can be a game breaker against a lot of decks. While it may occasionally slow the deck's clock by a turn in terms of pumping your Shades, it makes up for that turn with the playability of its Chalices.

[The Advantage]

I agree with most of the things said already.  I top 8'd with this deck in the KC power blue tournament a month or so ago where Shockwave knocked me out with Dragon, but aside from that I dont have a ton of experience with the deck.  The hyppies definitely do not belong, but the Factories were good to me all day, and great under Sphere(s).

Wretches are nice, and they help in a lot of matchups that you should be expecting if you choose to play this deck, but they do not replace the Factories.  I really dont know what I would drop for them though, and I think its a mistake to just throw them in the side unless you know exactly what you'll be siding out to bring them in.  This deck loves redundancy, and you are already threat-light.  They obviously cant replace Shade or Negator, but I do want to do some testing with them.  If we were to add Wretches, what does everyone think gets cut??

[Jakedasnake]

This is the budget version that my friend runs, and I have to say it's quite good:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
3 Phyrexian Negator

1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
14 Swamp

The 3:3:3:3 creature formation is surprisingly effective. 3 Wretch is all but mandatory with Dragon and Workshop decks.

He chose Cabal Therapy over Hymn because frankly Hymning a Workshop player isn't very effective, and against Dragon it has the same effect.

[g0dzillA]

@TheAdvantage:

I read your tournament report over on mtgnews. Good stuff.

@Jakedasnake:

Interesting idea cutting 1 each of the other 3 threats to make room for 3 Wretches. Especially in a Dragon/Workshop-heavy environment, it would seem to be a very good idea. I'm not entirely convinced they can't be boarded in some metas, but this build looks good for most.

I know Zherbus considered Cabal Therapy in his original build and decided against them, as your own Chalices would tend to shut them down for you. Has your friend found this to be a problem at all?

[MoonShine]

Alright, Thanks for ALL the input; I think we should all agree on a paradigm.

// Mana: 20
4 Dark Ritual
15 Swamp
1 Sol Ring

// Broken: 3
1 Yawg Win
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

// Discard: 17
4 Duress
4 Hymn/Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

// Tech: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

This leaves 12 spots for creatures... but, I think the build should be:

// Mana: 22
4 Dark Ritual
16 Swamp
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

// Broken: 4
1 Yawg Win
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence

// Discard: 17
4 Duress
4 Hymn/Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

// Tech: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

This leaves 9 creature cards to work with...

What are you guys' paradigm for Chalice Black?

What build do you like better the 1st or the 2nd; Personally I like the 2nd better, then I can play:

3 Negator
3 Shade
3 Wretch

I totally agree with BuboniC with decks PACKING Stripmine/Wasteland; why take the chance of playing Mishra's Factory?

I have a 3rd paradigm too:

// Mana: 20
4 Dark Ritual
15 Swamp
1 Sol Ring

// Broken: 3
1 Yawg Win
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence

// Discard: 17
4 Duress
4 Hymn/Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

// Tech: 11
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Chains of Mephistopheles

This build also leaves us 9 spots for creatures...

Thoughts on my own post... :-p

Please look at the 2nd build as a serious option and the 3rd build as sub-par.

Which build do you like better?

Are the 2nd and 3rd build crap?

[centroles]

i like this discussion.

frankly i wouldn't take out the factories. the whole point of this deck is to disrupt their hand, chalice away there low casting cost spells, and sphere to make their high casting cost spells that much harder. the only problem is that you would like to have a creature in play beating down the opponent the whole time you're disrupting. and after sphere, it makes it that much harder to lay down your threats. this is the beauty of factory. it doesn't need to be cast with mana like other creatures, it dodges the sphere, it produces colorless mana that can be used on both chalice and for sphere, and if your opponents waste it away, they'll be mana screwed and unable to pay the extra colorless mana for sphere due to all the land destruction you pack. plus, you can always preemptively waste away your opponent's land before they get to yours.

the 3:3:3:3 creature base is pretty effective. lotus petal however isn't.

[[Psychotic| Rain]

I think x4 Factory is madatory, what about taking out x1 Withered Wretch MD for another Factory, then placing x2 Wretch in the SB?

They both hit for the same amount, only the factory is free under the Sphere and cannot be stopped with your Chalice.

-Rain

[centroles]

That's a metagame choice. If you play a competitive metagame where dragon, welder mud etc are common place, 3 wretch is a neccesity.

i would say that an often over looked weakness of factory is that they use up a land drop where you could instead waste away an opponent's land and cost mana to activate. so while it's nice to have one in the opening hand, seeing two or three in one game is not usually a good thing. so four isn't neccesarily the best choice.

but if you don't see wretches being all too useful, as is perfectly understandable as they are dead against a LOT of decks, then by all means take them out. to be honest, i don't play 3 wretches either as in my meta, they are mostly deadweights. but i usually opt for the fourth negator as the rest of the deck does pretty well against aggro in place of the fourth factory.

[centroles]

There are two very important discussions I would like to focus in on...

The use of Yawgmoth's Will. Dare I say it, we may have reached the day where Yawgmoth's Will is too slow for the format!!!    Before you bash me for so much as thinking it. Think of the synergy it has with Sphere and Chalice. Assuming you play Chalice for one, the most likely play, you won't be recurring those Dark Rituals, Duresses, or Therapies anytime soon.

Even if you could, assuming you have a sphere in play, you'll have to generate 4 mana to cast Will and another 2 for duress. Six mana is hard to come by especially when it could be better used to pump Shades, remove cards with Wretch, or leave Factories untapped, activate them and attack with them. It seems like you're giving up an an awful lot just to be able to reuse your duress or what not when you could just as easily tutor into it. And playing any more than one spell, or any spells with higher casting costs after Will seems unlikely under a sphere. So while Necropotence gives you mad card advantage, Will in most cases simply doesn't in this deck!!

But feel free to debate me in this point.

And the second discussion I would like to focus in on is Hymn vs. Cabal Therapy. Both have advantages and disadvantages. So which do you think is superior?

Hymn to Tourach
Offers definate card advantage when used early against certain decks.
Won't be shut down by a chalice to one.
Only really effective early on.
Requires two black mana which can be hard to come by with only 14 swamp.
There's always the possibility of running head first into a Misdirection type spell.

Cabal Therapy
If it's in your graveyard, can sac a Negator in response to a bolt etc.
Won't have to worry about accidentally discarding the wrong cards against Workshop, Dragon, or Madness decks all of which have budget variations.
Requires a good knowledge of your opponent's deck to use properly.

I guess it comes down to your metagame largely. If workshop/dragon are dominant enough in your metagame to warrant maindeck Wretch, they're probably dominant enough that a Hymn can be a very bad thing. But against a random or scrubby metagame where you often have little idea what's in your opponent's hand and may often be setting Chalice at 1, Hymn is the way to go.

Based on these considerations... this is what I settled on as optimal for a non workshop/dragon dominated metagames.

Mana
14 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sol Ring

Draw/Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence

Disruption
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy or Hymn to Tourach
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

Critters
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch

The creature base is a byproduct of the points brought up  for Wretch being largely dead against non Dragon or Workshop decks. I think Chalice/Sphere do enough damage to random Sligh or aggro in general that 4 Negators can be supported. Besides, you can always preemptively sac them to Cabal Therapy.

[The Advantage]

@zilla:  Thanks.

@Centroles:  I only cast Will once in 4 matches that day in KC, and even then it was far from broken.  I'd be up for testing w/o it since it is a late game card, and by late game you want to have Chalice and Sphere taking up some board, which makes it less effective.

With respect to the Therapy argument, it's still a sorcery, you cant flash it back in response to anything.  I think the cc of Therapy makes it unplayable as you like to name Chalice for one and that just gives you more dead cards.  I love the Hymn, and MisD's are pretty much absent right now.

If Workshops are common in your meta, I think its a bad idea to play this deck at all, as its essentially an autoloss unless you can race them with a rit'd out first turn Negator, and they can still deal with that.

[MoonShine]

Therapy is a bad choice, as it is a 1cc spell.

Hymn to Tourach is a 2cc spell, which means you are less likely to screw yourself against Sligh .

And with Therapy, your not going to want to sacrifice a creature.

So we all agree that Mishra's Factory is a MUST.  And that Hyppie shouldnt be used, and that 1-3 Withered Wretch should be maindeck.

My Current Version:

// Disruption: 25
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

// Threats: 12
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Nantuko Shade
1 Withered Wretch

// Broken: 3
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence

// Mana: 20
15 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sol Ring

[g0dzillA]

@Moonshine:

I thought I'd done a prett good job of explaining it, but I'll rehash: Factory is tailor-made for this deck. Its ability to operate so efficiently under your own Spheres and Chalices is priceless. Yes, it's succeptible to Striplands, but the fact is, it doesn't slow your tempo because of it. You need to look at Factory as a creature that you're taking a turn to "cast" by using your land drop that turn. It's no different than taking an extra turn to spend two black to cast a Wretch. In fact, from a tempo standpoint, it's probably quicker.

The succeptibility to Striplands is an effective argument when dealing with the splashing of colors into an otherwise mono-colored deck, because this is a threat to that deck's ability to maintain mana stability. Chalice Black doesn't really need the Factories as mana sources; it's just a happy side effect. If you were to replace them, you wouldn't replace them with lands, you'd replace them with creatures, so the succeptibility to Striplands argument is moot. They are simply too synergistic with the rest of this deck not to include.

@centroles:

Regarding the Hymn vs. Cabal Therapy issue, Hymn is likely the better choice. While I like Therapy against combo because it allows you to look for specific threats, its drawbacks are too large to ignore, in my opinion. The most significant of which is that their inclusion ups the likelihood of having unplayable cards in your hand under your own Chalice. Perhaps more importantly, Therapy cannot remove land from your opponent's hand, while Hymn can. In effect, Hymn reinforces the deck's focus of hand and mana denial. This is particularly important for reinforcing the effectiveness of your Spheres.

[MoonShine]

godzilla- please re read my deck list, then talk about Factory again...

Under "Threats" There are 4 Mishra's Factory

 

[g0dzillA]

Quote (MoonShine @ Nov. 23 2003,07:27)I totally agree with BuboniC with decks PACKING Stripmine/Wasteland; why take the chance of playing Mishra's Factory?

I apologize. I was responding to this statement. I hadn't seen your most recent post.  

[MoonShine]

Ah yes, I am an idiot but it's ok.

I realized that Mishra is  

 

[BaronSengir]

Iam guessing you don't have power right? Otherwise, a Mox Jet (is Jet the most expensive mox these days?) and a Lotus Petal would definetly help you out.

The problem with running 1 wrech is because by the time you want to beat him, you already probably don't need wrech. By the time you get around to casting Wrech, I can wager you will have a good lock with chalice and multiple spheres out. As such, you only have 3 ways to get Wrech (DT, DC, drawing Wrech) and Iam sure you will probably won't want to target your DT and DC on Wrech anyways. I suggest you board it and include a petal if you can. You can get 4 Petals on e-bay for around $1.25  

Shade also has good synergy under void and sphere, so I don't see the point running 3. Negators are pretty dangerous to you under the right circumstances

That being said, I know   means broken, but what card or what thing is this referring too?  

[Negator0808]

Yes i agree that Yawg Will is less than desireable in this deck... with a sphere/ chalice out it doesnt do anything. Withered Wretch should be main, tho for what i dont know yet.

Another point... splashing red in this deck seems like a very viable option.. it does not hurt the mana base, and gives you better game against MUD.

THis is my list for now:

4 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet, 1 Black Lotus (2 Swamp if not)
4 Mishras Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Ritual

4 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

1 Necropotence
1 D.T.

SB:
4 Rack and Ruin
2 Withered Wretch
3 Contagion?
3 Null Rod
3 Chains of Mephistophiles

Also: has anyone considered using Unmask over Hymn? it is card disadvantage, but less likely to be hit by chalice and cant be diluted by it either. Plus it can get rid of dead cards in hand because of chalice.

[EVAxKPx@!]

I like Unmasks since most of the time I do chalice for 1 then for some reason get a dark ritual / duress the next turn.

[The Advantage]

I dont really like Unmask in this deck.  You have no card draw, so the pitch can really hinder you, and this just screams Mana Drain.