OK, I have to be one of the staunchest believers in card ...

[Comrade Seraph]

I'm not suggesting f/i on scepter. What I'm saying is that scepter-keeper lists pack more solutions as a matter of deck design than scepter-less lists. Traditional builds of keeper runs 0-1 f/i and 1-2 swords, for 1-3 potential solutions to the problems you mention 1st turn. Scepter keeper has 3-4 f/i and 1-2 swords, for 4-6 potential answers 1st turn. Who would seriously consider running 4 f/i main deck without scepter?

[Falc]

Perhaps a better fit for Scepter would be Oath.  Extended Oath decks turned to Scepter and would've had great success if not for the brokeness of Tinker of decks.  Everyone has talked about how great Scepter is in the control on control matchup.  Well, what happens when you add in one of the best anti-aggro cards ever - Oath of Druids?  A U/G/r, U/G/b, or U/G/w Scepter-Oath deck would have a lot power at it's disposal.  I think it could be a very successfull deck, especially in an un-powered metagame.  What do you guys think?

- Falc

[BreathWeapon]

@Milton, Scepters do not go online by turn 3, they go online by turn 2. Land + Mox = Scepter with Fire/Ice or STP go.

Here is my Chronic List, if you can't stop Aggro with this ... you've got issues.

"The Chronic"

Counters (8)
4xForce of Will
4xManadrain

Engine (4)
4xIsochron Scepter

Draw/Search (11)
3xCunning Wish
4xBrainstorm
1xTimewalk
1xAncestral Recall
1xDemonic Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Utility/Removal (6)
2xSwords to Plowshares
3xFire/Ice
1xGorilla Shaman

Kill (1)
1xDecree of Justice

Bombs (4)
1xFuture Sight
1xYawgmoth's Will
1xMind Twist
1xBalance

Mana (26)
7xSoLoMoxen
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
4xFetch Lands
3xTundra
3xUnderground Sea
3xVolcanic Island
1xIsland

Sideboard
1xFact or Fiction
1xVampiric Tutor
2xCoffin Purge
1xRack and Ruin
2xHurkyl's Recall
1xAbeyance
1xSwords to Plowshares
1xDisenchant
1xStifle
3xRed Elemental Blast
1xBlue Elemental Blast

This list is pretty much optimal. Its a Keeper deck that destroys Aggro. I'd like to fit in a 2nd Decree and Gorilla Shaman, but I don't have the room. The SB could also use a Vampiric Tutor, but it doesn't have the room either and I always thought it was over rated. Library was replaced with an Island because this deck drops its hand too fast for it to be of any use, and the lone Island saves your ass vs Bloodmoon.I don't like this deck as much as my metagamed U/r Scepter, but that deck sucks vs Mask and this one doesn't.

If you have anymore doubts on the power of Scepter vs Aggro after you play this deck ... then I just don't know what more I can do or say.\n\n

[Smash]

@BreathWeapon : Played a deck very similar I pulled out of my butt the other day. I had the full 2 shamen 2 decree, at the cost of scepter #4, balance,  and a few other minor changes. It definately did well, and was great all around. With only 1 decree, I might want another faster win condition. My only loss was to dragon  In hindsight, I needed a 3rd purge in the board.

@Milton
1) Scepter/shattering pulse will do it nicely (or recall)... or a fire/ice to nail welders and get card advantage.
2) Any removal is fine.
3) Any removal
4) Artifact D OR creature removal. Once huge + to scepter, is that the card is duress proof. This has saved me several times...

Null rod is annoying, but cunning wish can solve that problem fairly handily.

Deed is pretty slow...

Scepter on pulse is just fine vs. wmud type decks... or recall...\n\n

[BreathWeapon]

I would probably replace Rack and Ruin or Disenchant with Shattering Pulse if I wasn't such a wuss. Rack and Ruin is devestating vs Mask and Disenchant pwnz the random Enchantment and hits Dragon.

Shattering Pulse is some good tho'.

On the second Decree, I don't think its necessary at all. With 2 Tutors MD, its really easy to get when you need. Mystical Tutor will top deck it to protect it from Duress and Demonic Tutor will fetch for the "I win now" scenarios. If your still using the Vampiric Tutor in your SB, all the better.

The second Monkey is nice, no doubt ... but Keeper just flirts with Manadenial, and I think 2 can be 1 too many sometimes.

If you just have to have two of a Monkey or Shaman, you can stand to lose a Fetchland and drop to 14 U sources, it doesn't hurt the deck at all and I think 26 sources is probably best anyway.

One thing I do miss is the Stroke of Genious, or Fact or Fiction, in the SB to turn Wish into card advantage ... but Hate is just more important these days. Coffin Purge #3 OWNZ.

[Milton]

Quote Here is my Chronic List, if you can't stop Aggro with this ... you've got issues.

"The Chronic"

Counters (8)
4xForce of Will
4xManadrain

Engine (4)
4xIsochron Scepter

Draw/Search (11)
3xCunning Wish
4xBrainstorm
1xTimewalk
1xAncestral Recall
1xDemonic Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Utility/Removal (6)
2xSwords to Plowshares
3xFire/Ice
1xGorilla Shaman

Kill (1)
1xDecree of Justice

Bombs (3)
1xYawgmoth's Will
1xMind Twist
1xBalance

Mana (27)
7xSoLoMoxen
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
5xFetch Lands
3xTundra
3xUnderground Sea
3xVolcanic Island
1xIsland

Sideboard
1xMisdirection
3xCoffin Purge
1xRack and Ruin
2xHurkyl's Recall
1xAbeyance
1xSwords to Plowshares
1xDisenchant
1xStifle
3xRed Elemental Blast
1xBlue Elemental Blast

Thanks for the list.  I'll begin playtesting tonight.  It's very different from the version we were using in that it only has Brainstorm / Ancestral as card drawing spells.

I'll test v. Suicide, Goblins my Phid deck and Welder and let you know how I did.

[BreathWeapon]

Ahh, are you one of the guys that put 4 AK into their Scepter decks? That explains a lot, cuz the 4 AK engine is horribly win more and you don't need to imprint a draw spell on the Scepter for it to generate card advantage.

The Scepter decks that run 4 AK have big issues vs Aggro of all kinds, and only gain anything from it in Control match ups. I made the same mistake before I realized that STP and Stifles were better against the field. Stifle is easily just as good against the Control Mirror, and its still such a great card against Dragon. STP shores up your Aggro matches, and works just as well against Dragon.

Edit: Milton, Fire/Ice is a draw spell as well on a Scepter, plus it can stall vs Aggro, act as Manadenial and circumvent sOrb/wOrb locks. That should bring the total number up to 8 spells that can draw with the Scepter. Abeyance is a lock on a Scepter and also draws cards, but its mainly a Wish target with a Scepter in hand ... or a Timewalk vs Combo that cantrips if hardcast.\n\n

[Milton]

Quote Ahh, are you one of the guys that put 4 AK into their Scepter decks? That explains a lot, cuz the 4 AK engine is horribly win more and you don't need to imprint a draw spell on the Scepter for it to generate card advantage.

No, I didn't test AK, even though I like the card.  Actually, I tried the AK briefly, but my more serious build had, aside from the Brainstorm, two Impulse, a Fact or Fiction maindeck and a Gush in the board for search and Wasteland protection.  I also ran 2 Shaman.  But, I'll test your version with an unbiased eye and let you know what I find.

[Ivantheterrible]

Just to nitpick hasn't this thread gone off topic from why is scepter so widly used? to how to play scepter what decks use it and conversations about playtesting it.

To original poster if you care so much about card advantage that you call scepter card disadvantage(wrong anyway's if you play it right) then I think you care to much about the idea. I bet you play force of will even though you do loose 2 to their 1. Scepter will most of the time be card advantage and though sometimes you will wish you didn't have it siting in your hand I think it will break the game more often the not.

[BreathWeapon]

I think lists and examples are more important than anything else. A lot of people don't understand how to build a deck around Scepter, so they dismiss it as being sh!t. I.E., their lack of deck building skillz and general misunderstanding of its nature cloud their judgement of  what is an otherwise excellent card. You have to take a conversation beyond  the realm of principles and into the more intricate points of practice. So, this thread is progressing as it should.

[Comrade Seraph]

BreathWeapon - the AK plan may suck, but the complete absence of card draw in your deck list scares me. I don't play fully powered Keeper and I realize that a faster powered build doesn't need to prepare for the long game as much, but what does your deck do if its first scepter gets nuked right away? You aren't U/rphid, and you can't defend scepter against dedicated assault.

Heck, remember the 8 blast sligh plan? It kinda sucked, of course, since many of Keeper's most powerful spells aren't blue. But the '8 null rod/disenchant/naturalize' etc plan is looking a whole lot brighter vs. you, off this deck list.

It's commonly bandied about here that Keeper's biggest weakness as a control deck (besides Blood Moon ) is its weak draw engine. If killing what card draw it has paid huge dividends, maybe that would be its natural course - but it isn't clear to me that you've gained much in any but a very narrow, dragon/sligh meta - this list looks worse both against other control decks and random jank like Stompy or Red Rock. The stifle/StP comment seems a little obscure as I count at most 1 more StP and the same stifle count as most other builds. Am I just missing a/the point?

Incidentally, why are you siding a Mis-D as a wish target over Stroke or FoF? Seems like adding insult to injury... .

As a side note, to other posters - Rack and Ruin >> Shattering Pulse for one excellent reason - if you can cast cunning wish, you can rack. With pulse, chalice for 2 munches both much of your deck and your supposed artifact removal - not cool.

[BreathWeapon]

Null Rods are indeed a SOB, and they are often MD in multiples for Weenie Aggro. Its the only chance they have of competing. Fish is even worse with 4 Energy Flux in the board and 4 Stifle, which is a hard counter vs Scepter. This is where patience and C.Wish come into play. Instead of aggressively slapping down a Scepter turn 1 and saying go, you have to clear the road with your Wishboard and Manadrain into your Scepters.

Unlike the 8 Blast Plan, resolving a Scepter is not an issue. If a Scepter does indeed hit with a card like Fire/Ice or STP it will be immune to Vandal, Tinkerer and Shamans. If the Scepter lands with a Manadrain, then it can protect itself vs any form of Hate. If it lands with a Brainstorm, you can generate answers by looking at the top 3 cards of your deck and pick the one that is best suited to the Scepters defense. Null Rod, amusingly, is the least of your worries because it does remove Scepters from play, so you can permit them to cast it and then find an answer via C.Wish. It would actually be an incredibly weak card vs Scepter.dec if it didn't neutralize your Moxen as well.

Scepters can also be "Bluffed" vs Control to provoke a Force of Will, netting you 2 for 1 card advantage because they can't risk the Stick/Drain lock, so vs Control its a moot point. Keeper now has THREATS with Scepters, which is something it never had before.

Keeper is no longer a reactive control deck, it now seeks to aggressively lay down Locks vs its opponents.Keeper doesn't need a card advantage base with Fact or Fiction, Skeletal Scrying and Future Sight anymore. It has a faster more efficient tool in Scepter. It does something better than netting mere card advantage, it wins. Knowing how to prepare your game for the arrival of a Scepter is the tricky part.

That said, I have been rethinking my SB a lot, and 2 cards I want to inlucde are a Stroke of Genious and Vampiric Tutor. I've already mentioned this earlier, and I am still deliberating what I want to cut for both of them ... which is currently Coffin Purge # 3 , which is cool but redundant, and something else.

Could you point out the specific comment alluding to Stifle and Quote it? When I make comments on Stifle, I tend to refer to the use of Stifle in another Scepter specific deck called U/r Scepter, which is posted in the U/r Bloodmoon control thread ... if that helps.

[Comrade Seraph]

Thanks for the lengthy reply mate.

The stifle quote was:

Quote The Scepter decks that run 4 AK have big issues vs Aggro of all kinds, and only gain anything from it in Control match ups. I made the same mistake before I realized that STP and Stifles were better against the field.

Contextually I had assumed you meant in your Keeper list, but on second glance you say scepter decks in general - so, my apologies.

I'm partially convinced by your defence of the all-scepter route, and will have to think about the Keeper w/threats, aggressively laying threats concept.

As far as making room for the Stroke/Vamp, really, why is Mis-D in there? All that occurs to me is control on control or sui black tech, but I'm not sure that earns the slot... esp. w/U/r fish being almost certainly the susperior anti-control deck vis a vis sui.

Random thought: Nimble Mongoose turn one means Force, Balance or cycling the only win condition. Not insoluble, but... ouch.

[BreathWeapon]

I have been thinking about making room for 1 MD Future Sight. Even tho' Scepters have held their own vs the swarm of hate, you have to play under a lot of pressure ... maybe too much pressure to avoid being "stressed" into a crucial mistake. I'd like to make the deck as strong and as focused as possible, but that doesn't meen it should be completely inflexible.

So, here is what I am thinking: We should cut a Fetch Land and return to the standardized 26 sources. While I hate dropping to 4 Fetch Lands in Keeper, the Scepters help to prevent color screw ... so its really not a big deal. Now, the lone Future Sight is a little too random for my tastes, so we cut Coffin Purge#3 for a Vampiric Tutor.

So, changes should go:

MD
-1xFetch Land
+1xFuture Sight

SB
-1xCoffin Purge
+1xVampiric Tutor

Now concerning possible changes that are up in the air, are MisD and Stifle worth SB slots? I like MisD, its card advantage vs Hymn, Unmask, Mindtwist, Ancestral Recall and deflects Artifact Hate in the Control Mirror and against wMUD. I've always thought that C.Wish for a Fact or Fiction was a little slow, and arguably Vampiric Tutor for a Future Sight is better anyway. Stifle is the other card on peoples shit list, but I think its far too flexible to remove for a redundant 4th REB.