Phantom Tape Wurm:Quote Type 1 should be combo, and combo...

[Lactose]

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 29 2003,18:15)Do you agree that that's all the format is now, combo and anticombo?

Quote Workshop based Combo vs. Combo vs. Workshop and Combo Hate

Those are questions of definition.
Really, all you are doing is recognizing that T1 is all about synergy, and that that's only going to get more important, and therefore renaming Control and Aggro-Control "Combo-Hate" and Prison and Combo-Control "Combo + Combo-Hate" (or at least, that's how PTW phrased it, you just let them fall in Combo-Hate). If you think the synergy in T1 warrants the change, then whatever, but it doesn't really matter.

Quote (centroles @ Nov. 29 2003,18:15)dragon is one of the most resilient and difficult decks to hate out and it is more than capable of turn one wins. it too will greatly distort the metagame if not slowed down

I wouldn't say it's "more than capable" of turn one wins, they're not very common at all, and even then not always the best choice anyway.
The remarks that it's difficult to hate out and that it distorts the metagame are probably questions of definition as well. I would say no to both; it's easy to sideboard against, but no, it's probably not going to leave the format for awhile, and I wouldn't say it distorts the metagame, but it is a top deck, and will have a lot of influence on the environment.

Quote All of the decks I can think of that are even playable in vintage are either forced to be able to combo out on turn one or turn two or have to rely on dedicating atleast 11-12 maindeck slots (Chalice, Null Rod, Sphere, Wasteland, Stripmine) and often more, solely for the purpose of hating out combo...and play numerous cards that primarily serve to stop combo (Duress, Force of Will etc. etc.)

What you're overlooking is that Chalice, Null Rod, Sphere, Wasteland, Stripmine, Duress, and FoW are good cards.

I disagree with most everything centroles says, but if you haven't read PTW's thread you probably should. It's a good, interesting read.

Now, can we play the game already?

[Vegeta2711]

Quote perhaps the reason that fish wins more smaller tournaments is because so few people have all the power cards needed to play long. the same applies for workshop based decks

Have you seen the Waterbury results? 10 Long decks, some played by known players and yet none managed T8. There was a total of 5 Fish decks (Mono U and U/R) and 2 made T8.

Oh and *gasp* no Workshop decks in there either. And obviously a lot of people had power as many people played Keeper. 110 sure doesn't seem small either...

Quote i have yet to see anyone challenge my statement

In case you missed it, any time you post a thread you always say people aren't challenging your statements or providing anwsers to your arguements when they are.

[centroles]

if you don't play in an environment with so many fast combo and combo hate decks, why not simply play black jack? why not simply play with 4 of each of the moxen, 4 black lotuses, 4 tolarian academy? when the format gets too fast, the most broken tempo breakers (like workshop, lion's eye) get restricted to slow it down. to make the format supportive of more decks, to make it more diverse, to preserve the interactivity.

there is nothing wrong or unusual about restricting broken tempo breakers. this is why black lotus, and the moxen were restricted, this is why lotus petal was restricted. why should mishra's workshop and lion's eye diamond be spared. in the decks in question, they are actually stronger.

[thefram]

Centroles, if your gonna bitch about the format's speed, play standard. As vegeta said, Long and Workshop are not winning, decks like Gro, Fish, and Dragon are.

Is playing against fish flipping coins? Hell no.
Someone should really close this thread.

[Corvel]

@ Centroles - All you have effectivly said is that there is combo and combo hate (aka control).

Quote
where in my post did i call fish combo, a combo is when a deck can win or set up numerous soft locks consistently on the first and second turns.

type 1 is now made up of such decks or decks that play enough hate against those decks to be able to slow them down and have atleast a small chance of squeezing out a win. and most of these decks lose to random rogue decks.

And i guess by random rogue decks you mean decks like sligh or sui black (Aggro-Aggro Control)

Quote
perhaps the reason that fish wins more smaller tournaments is because so few people have all the power cards needed to play long. the same applies for workshop based decks. in addition, a lot more people have experience with fish because it's been around for years while long is essentially a brand new deck and takes a lot of time to master. but the raw power of long and workshop decks ensures that they will slowly come to dominate most large tournaments if somethign sin't done to slow them down.

So you are now saying that people can't affored combo or control. This leaves us with a metagame of Aggro, Combo, and Control. The Aggro beats the Control. The Control beats the Combo. The Combo beats the Aggro.

Looks like a healthy metagame to me.

-Corvel  

[Phantom Tape Worm]

I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the thread that started all of this: post mirrodin metagame thread that presents PTW's combo, anti-combo, combo/anti-combo metagame theory

It has a lot of very good constructive analysis of today's metagame, but more importantly it is the birth place of the premise for this thread.

I'll just post some highlights that are pertinent to this discussion since it looks like this thread is starting to lose focus:

Quote With so much acceleration in this format, so many tutors, so much good draw and so many horrible design mistakes that never EVER go away, how can this format realistically be anything but a combo format??  I don't mean to be negative, I really don't.  But now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of really good tier 1 combo, we aren't gonna go back.  Mark my words, type 1 deckbuilding will focus on combo more and more from this point forward, be it in trying to optimize the perfect turn 1 pure speed combo, or tuning a combo hate deck to be as flexible as possible so it can have an advantage when it's up against other combo hate decks.  Combo is here to stay, now and forever unless WotC does something VERY drastic to the format.

Quote In other formats you play aggro, or you play control, or you play aggro-control.  But in type 1, it's a combo format.  You play combo, or you play combo-hate, or you play combo/combo-hate.  THIS IS THE NEW TRINITY.

Quote And now that I think about it, WotC probably did foresee the eventual degeneration of type 1, it really just has too many broken cards that can never go away.  This is why they created type 1.5, so that when type 1 gets so bad that it is just combo, people have another outlet for kirdapes and other old cards.

Quote Workshop could easily be considered a varient of combo, it's a very blurry line when you begin to realize that workshop decks strive to win based on assembling their combo pieces (eg. welder + mindslaver) much the same way dragon does (animate + bazaar).

Quote Any deck a that I bring to a tournament must essentially adhere to one of these principles in today's post mirrodin metagame:

A) I can consistently attempt a win on the 1st or 2nd turn.
B) I can consistently stop a 1st and 2nd turn attempt at winning.
C) I can do both A and B but with less consistency than either.

Combo, anti-combo, and combo/anti-combo.  I could just as easily have said speed, anti-speed, or speed/anti-speed.  I could also have said aggressive, defensive, and aggressive/defensive.  I chose the verbage "combo vs anti-combo" because I wanted to make sure that everyone realizes that THIS IS A COMBO DEFINED FORMAT NOW.  I feel that this transition was so subtle that no one realized it, but it did happen and we as vintage players need to open our eyes to it.

So, who buys my theory and why/why not?

[P_f]

looks like centroles just got pwned by 15 hairy men.

[centroles]

Just because some of you are actually in favor of never restricting broken tempo breakers like black lotus or mishra's workshop, of turning magic into little more than black jack as phantom tape wurm has demonstrated, of killing off all player interactivity doesn't mean squat. go have fun playing with yourselves.

i can see why those you of you who own 4 copies of workshop wouldn't want them to get on the list and risk losing a few hundred, you probably would be that same people clamoring up 10 years ago when the dci realized it needs to restrict the moxen and black lotus for the health of the game. and if they listened to you back then too, if they refused to restrict cards of value for fear of decreasing there worth, where would we be now anyways?

who the hell cares if fish managed to squeeze out some wins in a predominatly chalice keeper dominated tournament somewhere. the mere fact that chalice keeper was played so much, a deck that didn't even managed to top 8 inspite of having such a dominant presence proves just poorly metagamed the tournament was. Of course combo would have a tough time ina tourney where keeper is everywhere and combo is few and far between. Of course combo would have a tough time when it's brand new and so few people have both the cards for it and the experience with it. of course fish would pull out wins in a tournament dominated by keeper. fish was afterall first designed specifically to beat keeper. lets look at the results of a real tournament, one metagamed properly, where not everyone brought with them a deck that's not even very viable (chalice keeper), where more bothered to play the real behemoths of type 1 right now, long, dragon, and workshop variants. i guarentee you the results will be vastly different.

[Corvel]

@ centroles - I am unpowered and still don't want to see workshop take the axe.

[Lactose]

Quote (PTW @ Original Discussion)With so much acceleration in this format, so many tutors, so much good draw and so many horrible design mistakes that never EVER go away, how can this format realistically be anything but a combo format??  I don't mean to be negative, I really don't.  But now that we've tasted the forbidden fruit of really good tier 1 combo, we aren't gonna go back.  Mark my words, type 1 deckbuilding will focus on combo more and more from this point forward, be it in trying to optimize the perfect turn 1 pure speed combo, or tuning a combo hate deck to be as flexible as possible so it can have an advantage when it's up against other combo hate decks.  Combo is here to stay, now and forever unless WotC does something VERY drastic to the format.

Quote Combo, anti-combo, and combo/anti-combo.  I could just as easily have said speed, anti-speed, or speed/anti-speed.  I could also have said aggressive, defensive, and aggressive/defensive.  I chose the verbage "combo vs anti-combo" because I wanted to make sure that everyone realizes that THIS IS A COMBO DEFINED FORMAT NOW.  I feel that this transition was so subtle that no one realized it, but it did happen and we as vintage players need to open our eyes to it.

Quote In other formats you play aggro, or you play control, or you play aggro-control.  But in type 1, it's a combo format.  You play combo, or you play combo-hate, or you play combo/combo-hate.  THIS IS THE NEW TRINITY.

T1 is definitely in large part combo-defined; the combo decks have a major hand in determining which control decks can be viable, and I agree that there won't be a point from now on where combo isn't one of the top decks.
But to call it combo, combo-hate and a mix of the two is just definition, and really doesn't say anything, except that combo is tier one and maybe that synergy is amazingly important in T1 deckbuilding.

I like the new Trinity, actually. But it's just a new way of classifying decks, a different way of looking at things. It's still Combo and Control and Combo-Control and Aggro-Control, it's just that people think PTW's definitions might be more useful for T1 now.

Quote Workshop could easily be considered a varient of combo, it's a very blurry line when you begin to realize that workshop decks strive to win based on assembling their combo pieces (eg. welder + mindslaver) much the same way dragon does (animate + bazaar).

I definitely agree with this. Using old definitions, I really think it's Combo-Control, and that's probably what all Prison and Lock decks are anyhow.

Quote That fact that your opponent has 1 turn changes the entire dynamic of type 1 so much that it really cannot be compared to solitare at all, it's clearly much more like blackjack

Quote This is why they created type 1.5, so that when type 1 gets so bad that it is just combo, people have another outlet for kirdapes and other old cards.

Yeah, and it's a blackjack where you can destroy your opponents cards.

The blackjack analogy doesn't quite work either, not until we get into a real Second Combo Winter.

I also agree with you that any changes toward combo aren't necessarily bad, especially when T1.5 is around.

That said, I'm going to go look at 1.5 Trenches lists.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote But to call it combo, combo-hate and a mix of the two is just definition, and really doesn't say anything, except that combo is tier one and maybe that synergy is amazingly important in T1 deckbuilding.

It says that viable aggressive strategies, ie. strategies that put pressure on the opponent to react or lose, are now combo strategies or combo/combo-hate strategies.  Labling deck strategies as combo and combo-hate highlights the shift in type 1 from conventional magic as it was intended where you had aggro vs control, to what we currently have now.  Aggro more or less became combo.

Calling decks aggro-control or combo-control just seems naive to me now.  I say call it like it is.  The metagame is defined by degenerate speed which is only accomplished through broken card combinations, ie. combo decks, we may as well acknowledge what this format really is so we don't seem like jackasses when we try to explain to a type 2 player how long.dec or dragon wins and why we enjoy playing with and  against these decks.

Quote Yeah, and it's a blackjack where you can destroy your opponents cards.

The blackjack analogy doesn't quite work either, not until we get into a real Second Combo Winter.

Ah, but we are in a second combo winter.  You either play combo, or you play a deck that can beat combo...sound familiar?  

That said, most games do last longer than just 2 turns.  I go to tournaments a lot and I often see players go to time.  The reason for this is because combo is not the only viable archetype, there is still anti-combo, and combo/anti-combo and there probably always will be.  When two decks that aren't both pure combo face off the match can be very interesting and very interactive.  The fish vs keeper matchup for example is one that I have personally had the pleasure of playing out numerous times, and it is usually very little like blackjack, much more like the game of MTG was intended.  Of course at the opposite end of the spectrum when two combo decks square off you really begin to see the degeneracy of type 1, and blackjack is a very accurate description of some of the games I've seen.


Now, to answer centroles question: "is this a bad thing that type 1 has gotten to this point?"  
IMO, no, it was inevitable anyway.  The fact is type 1 is supposed to be like this when it's competitive.  For it to be as it was before (back when oscar tan was writing his "you too can play type 1" articles) would mean that players weren't taking the format seriously.  WotC has realized this, and that is why they have set up the 1.5 format, which is btw an excellent format.  If you want to play with old cards and you don't like a combo defined metagame, 1.5 is the format for you.  It's certainly an easier format to get into since it doesn't have the same cost prohibitive card barriers that type 1 does.

Anyway, it's time all of you realized exactly what type 1 is about: 1st turn kills and stopping them, anyone who tells you otherwise at this point is just being naive.

[Comrade Seraph]

Quote  (Smmenen in original discussion) For too long, Type One has somehow become a home for people who build random elf decks or a casual deck.  Type One is a tournament format, not a casual format.  Type One offers only one thing that other formats, besides extended temporarlily, lack: Brutal, sick, speed and brokeness.

 

No - and yes. Yes, T1 offers brutal speed and broken-ness; but no, that is not all the format is about. T1 will never be played at the competitive level of a T2 tournament format, as it lacks the monetary incentives to justify it. The best you can do off T1 tourney wins is get power - which in turn goes back into playing T1. That's a Diablo II model of player rewards, not a T2 tourney model.

T1 offers two things that other formats lack - speed/broken-ness, *and* longevity. Like most T1 players, I don't have much interest in a format that can last as little as 4 months. For many T1 players, the format is about being able to have a long-term relationship with a particular deck archetype, and semi-permanent pool of cards. Yes, most players support change, but that's because it's fun to try to evolve and tech out your decks for the changing environment, more than for the change itself. There is NO reason that we as T1 players should not choose to restrict or even ban cards to our hearts' content, *if* we determine the environment is becoming less fun for most of us.

Quote  (PTW in original discussion) Obviously both games are very little like what magic was intended to be, but such is type 1 and many people enjoy things as they are.  And I can assure you that it will continue to be this way in the future regardless of what the DCI does concerning restrictions, quite frankly restrictions won't help at this point, trust me .  Type 1 is a combo defined format and it will forever be unless drastic measures are taken by WotC to change things.

When the resurrection of Type 1 began a few years back, largely led by Rakso and people like him, it was the realization that Type 1 was not just "Land, Lotus, Channel, Fireball" that brought people back. I wanted in to this format because I saw that games could be longer, more complex and more interesting than anything Type 2 or Extended could offer. If the format becomes a sophisticated version of "Land, Lotus, Channel + Kaervek's (sp?) Torch", this time for real, it will kill its mainstream appeal.

Smmenen makes the point in the original thread that it is not combo as such that is warping the current meta-game, but speed.  It seems as if the current deformation of the environment as stemming from two problems - the raw speed of the unrestricted tools, and the weakness of aggro. Why not tailor the restrictions to fix these problems? Why not restrict LED, Worldgorger Dragon, Workshop *and* Mana Drain? If it makes more players happier by more equally balancing the format between play styles, why *not*?

Quote  (Matt the Great in original discussion) Also, restricting Mana Drain won't suddenly make high-cost cards viable. Having cheap answers to expensive threats is what makes those cards unviable - StP, Force of Will, Drain, and Counterspell ALL keep stuff like Blastoderm from being viable. Mana Drain is the most egregious offender, but far from the only one.

Blastoderm is untargetable by StP, is card disadvantage for the control player in the case of FoW and dealt with a T2 environment that included Counterspell just fine, thanks. Nobody's trying to make Tidal Kraken playable, but restricting Drain makes something like Red Rock a lot more playable.

[Lactose]

Quote (PTW @ Nov. 30 2003,15:40)It says that viable aggressive strategies, ie. strategies that put pressure on the opponent to react or lose, are now combo strategies or combo/combo-hate strategies.  Labling deck strategies as combo and combo-hate highlights the shift in type 1 from conventional magic as it was intended where you had aggro vs control, to what we currently have now.  Aggro more or less became combo....I say call it like it is.  The metagame is defined by degenerate speed which is only accomplished through broken card combinations, ie. combo decks, we may as well acknowledge what this format really is

You're right, aggro barely exists, and combo fills its place. But previous nomenclature (say it out loud, it's fun) wasn't aggro-centric and I don't think it's warranted (at least not yet) to make the current one combo-centric. I don't think anyone wants to degenerate any debates on this into futile last-minute state of the format griping, so I'll just say that I feel combo does not have any more influence over our format than aggro does over more tame formats. In T2 they have aggro that is (comparatively) fast and defines in a big part how the control decks must be built, they have rare aggro-control decks that are faster than most control decks but still need to maintain control of the game to win, and they have combo that, in most cases, is pathetically weak. Switch aggro and combo, and you have T1.
The only perfectly accurate way of classifying T1 decks would be an elaborate system of hybrids. Until then, I would just explain to T2 players that combo takes aggro's place and that hybrids are everywhere.

Quote Ah, but we are in a second combo winter.  You either play combo, or you play a deck that can beat combo...sound familiar?

I'm sorry if I got it wrong, Combo Winter was a little before my time.
I was always under the impression that it was Combo vs. Combo all day, so that's where my statement comes from.

[bebe]

I rather like the Trinity expressed by PTW. Not that it is anything more than another perspective designed to sharpen our understanding. I must say though that combo was always a major player in Type 1 for quite awhile now. I have primarily played various combo decks and the odd ( by this I mean design) hate deck - not true control.
PTW is stating what we havew all known for awhile. Each new wave of restrictions only proves his point.

Of course Semenman's defination makes equal sense. The first wave odf restrictions were aimed at reducing the speed of the format.  It was later that WotC realized that degenerate combos could be built around certain cards that a second wave of restrictions began targeting these cards.
There is no permanent solution for fixing the format to conform to a balanced aggro/control/combo because a new combom deck is certainly waiting to played.

I started with Reap/Lace advanced to Academy and then Trix/Necro, Academy/Trix, toyed with Mask very early, played with Underworld Dreams, went on to AoS and Ghoul/Mask, played Dragon and am currently testing no fewer than three new combo variants. Combom has been been a force for some time. Hobbling one deck just leads to another.  

Hate decks have their own history and i can remember playing various Blood Moon Sligh decks packed with main decked ReBs. I also initiated the infamous Blast deck.

Aggro just needs to evolve. Look at Razor and Dicemanx's new decks. They are aggro decks that can still compete. Goblin Chains might be viable and Fish certainly is viable - comments that fish only beats control decks are innacurate and ludicrous. In fact the deck went through a number of adjustments because Keeper was problematic.

I do not see Type 1 as a degenerate format. Quite the contrary. We have had so many new decks evolve over the last two years that I am constantly being surprised at tournaments by the unexpected. I don't think we should be up in arms over a defination. PTW was simply attempting to sharpen the focus and if you look at the list of decks Steve tested it makes good sense.

[rozetta]

Firstly, I can see PTW's parallel with the format being combo/combo hate, but, as people have already mentioned, this can be attributed more to innovation and synergy. No longer can you build a deck with 8-12 bolts, 12 x 1 mana creatures, PoP, wastelands and scrolls. The days of Keeper/Keeper hate have gone. It seems a good deal of the type 1 community welcomes this change, and I think it's definitely a change for the better in many respects, even if the format appears faster. I can also understand some people being unhappy with the state the format is in. To each his own. Like many people have suggested, including PTW, if the format is not to your liking, Type 1.5 is a clear alternative.

I think another thing to keep in mind was that the thread being held in EVF on this topic was very well conducted with a clear objective being sought, and post quality being high. And with that in mind, let me ilustrate why I think this thread is not of the same quality.

Exhibit A, posted by centroles:

Quote Workshop, Long and Dragon decks unlike other combo decks, are very resilient and difficult to hate out. In addition they won't die or disappear even if the key cards/tempo breakers (Mishra's Workshop, Worldgorger Dragon and Lion's Eye Diamond) are restricted. Budget versions of both Workshop and Long that don't run ANY power or Workshops have proven themselves viable even in powered metagames. This only serves to prove just how resilient these decks are any why slowing them down a tad certainly won't kill them.

Exhibit B, posted by centroles:

Quote there is nothing wrong or unusual about restricting broken tempo breakers. this is why black lotus, and the moxen were restricted, this is why lotus petal was restricted. why should mishra's workshop and lion's eye diamond be spared. in the decks in question, they are actually stronger.

Quote A couple of key restrictions can make the format a lot more enjoyable.

Exhibit C, a quote from magicthegathering.com's article, the quote is from an email sent to them by centroles:

Quote Here's Vikram Vaka's take on Mishra's Workshop:

In TnT decks [Workshop/Survival of the Fittest decks with Juggernaut and Su-Chi], Workshop is the equivalent of a Black Lotus that recurs every single turn. Allowing four copies of such a card to be played makes it so that an aggro player can’t possibly hope to win a tournament if there is a chance they might run into even one TnT deck. They could hope to be able to outrace combo and control decks and outnumber other aggro decks, but there is nothing they can do against a deck that plays 5 Black Lotuses, four of which stay in play forever, along with numerous other mana producers, and uses all this mana to play much larger creatures that the other aggro decks can’t take on the very first turn. As a result, over the past few months, other aggro decks virtually disappeared from competitive Type 1. And many of the previous aggro players have found themselves frustrated by their inability to use their decks in competitive environments. Those that could afford to moved onto playing TnT themselves or they switched over to combo and control decks. But for players that don’t own the Power 9, this isn’t an option. Virtually every major aggro deck has left the tournament scene as a direct result of TnT.

I see a conflict of arguements here. Firstly, it is mentioned that those decks would not be hurt if key elements are restricted. Second quote alludes to the fact that said person thinks that the metagame will change if those key elements are restricted. Third exhibit shows that the aforementioned member has complained about aggro in one form or another being too strong.

The first two arguements cancel each other out, also cancelling out the whole validity of the arguement presented by the starter of the topic.

The third one illustrates that the starter of the topic actually doesn't care what is dominating, since, in that case it was an aggro deck, making the first arguement mute.

[LotusHead]

Just a comment from a Newbie to The Mana Drain:

Aren't Moxen and Lotus the TRUE Restricted Cards?  How many Tier 1 decks can live without their precious moxes?  

Thought experiment:  What if Moxes were errata'ed to be LEGENDARY ARTIFACTS!  

Frankly, I am sick of Long.dec because of it's speed.  I play Dragon.dec, and the ONLY power I see is from a Long.dec player who is very skilled at it.  I am pissed mostly at Tendrils of Agony for being fairly uncounterable.

But such is Magic the Gathering.  

Combo versus Combo-hate.  We will all have to choose sides until more cards are released.  I mean, OTHER than dragon, couldn't many decks be dealt with via March of the Machines and Pestilence? I am going to make a March of Death deck right now.

Ciao.

[BrokenDeck]

Then the game becomes even more coin flip oriented, remember mox pearl and mox ruby can both be in play if they are legendary.  That means that whoever plays the moxen first gets an advantage, and this only affects power vs. power games one out of a hundred times. I mean, how often do you have a mox in your hand that is already in play and you need the mox to win? Not very often.

[centroles]

Broken Deck, I think you meant to say, what if all the moxen and black lotus were errataed to say Global Artifact. Similar to Global Enchantments like Nether Void and The Abyss, you can't have more than one Global Artifact in play at anyone time.

I think this would work well.


rozetta, you clearly miss what i want from the format.

i want a format that's as open and diverse as possible. that is what i disliked about how tnt used to shut out all other aggro decks. and now i dislike how many decks and archetypes are shut out by the blazing fast combo and combo hate decks as possible.

thus what i'm advocating is that we slow down the culprits decks just a tad so that the environment can support more decks and more archetypes. my first quote illustrates that restricting lion's eye diamond, mishra's workshop, and worldgorger dragon wouldn't kill the respective archetypes, it would just slow them down by a turn.

what this means is that all of a sudden, a great deal more decks become viable, many more archetypes become playable and the format more enjoyable for more people. in addition, in a slightly slower format, the importance of power cards wouldn't be as great and as a result, more players without power would be able to compete as well.

now, i just want the dci to do what they're hired to do, what they have done so many times in the past. slow down the format and make it accesible to more deck types, people and archetypes.

i disagree with people like phantom tape wurm that just because this is an inevitable pattern, that we should just throw in the towel and let combo dominate type one, accept two turn wins or one turn wins as normal. because then, what happens when more cards get printed and hte format speeds up even more. are we to accept turn one wins as the norm. just accept that the game is decided by who ever does go first. because that is the point we will eventually reach if we just sit around and refuse to restrict blatant tempo breakers.

as this happens, more and more will leave type 1 and format itself will die. despite the fact that i hate playing in this combocentric meta, I don't want vintage to ever die. as i certainly don't think it's going to be replaced with 1.5.

I don't want vintage to become steadily more and more degenerate and watch as the format i used to love becomes nothing more than a coin flip. i'm not saying that this has already happened. but i am saying that we're at the point where people will start leaving the format and possibly magic altogether if something isn't done. and within a year, i do see long, dragon, and workshop decks becoming even more efficent and being able to obtain turn one kills consistently. no one stands to benefit from the degeneration of the format, the decline in the players. seeing how prosperous, diverse and popular type 1 is now, i don't want that to go away.

i would say that an year ago was the golden age of vintage. after a host of restrictions effectively slowed down all the broken combos that emerged from urza's block but before tnt emerged on the scene and shut out a bunch of aggro decks. an year ago, so many different diverse decks and archetypes both powered and budget, combos, aggro, control, were all viable. and this why despite losing so many people to urza's block and combo winter, despite all the bad rep that type 1 had by then about how it was all about broken combos and turn one wins, vintage started to pick up steam again and lose these sterotypes. a whole new breed of vintage players joined up. thanks to starcitygames, manadrain etc, new tech was daily being tested and refined. vintage was prospering. i would bet that many of the people on this site right now joined up right around this period.

but now we're facing losing all this progress. if degenerate tempo breakers and fast combo isn't slowed down, to constantly be refined and expanded with newer cards to the point where turn one wins become common place (it's already not too difficult for long decks to combo out or workshop variants to effectively lock out the opponent turn one), then people will start quitting again. but if the dci acts quickly to neuter these broken tempo breakers. the archeatypes, dragon, long and workshop will be a turn slower. a bunch more decks will become viable again. and vintage will once again prosper.

on the same note...

i think errating the mox and lotus to be legendary is a very good idea. the cards will still be valued highly. the difference is that playing them can put you at a disadvantage too.

no one would want to play more than a couple of moxen per deck for fear of having useless cards sitting in thier hands. similarly, even those who opt to play moxen will not be able to play any of them 50% of the time against other players with mox.

as a result, the format would be slowed down a bit and thus would be able to accomidate a great deal more decks, strategies and archetypes. not playing with mox won't inherently be a disadvantage and thus less people would feel like they're getting the short end of the stick by not having access to moxen in a competitive environmetn. this will in turn make vintage overall more accesisible, open, diverse and resilient.

i'm not convinced this is needed quite yet. restricting workshop, lion's eye and dragon are more than enough for now. but eventually combo will start to dominate again. and god forbid, one day we may reach the point where errating the black lotus, moxen to be legendary, where restricting dark ritual may be neccessary. i just hope it's a long ways off. but i'm not ready to throw in the towel yet and i won't be even if not doing so requires me advocating that we restrict dark ritual and errata the moxen and black lotus to be legendary.

I don't know about other forums, but here, you can edit your posts after making them. This useful feature allows you to add comments to a post without clogging up the thread. Not only have you double-posted a number of times now, but your latest post was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Therefore, a warning has been issued.

-Jacob Orlove

Added:
and to add to my previous post. this is why i also posted in favor of reprints, because i think they'll make the game more open and accesible to everyone and help vintage grow and prosper.

[centroles]

Edited as requested.