Tournaments - How To Do them, How Not to Do Them

[Smmenen]

I've had some discussions recently with people in the chat about type one tournaments, what our ideal tournaments should look like, and how to tie these ideals with the goal of growth for Type One.

First, I'd like to make a few distinctions.  Open up the DCI tournament locator and find your nearest sanctioned tournament.  Go to them and what are you likely to find?  A weekly tournament located somewhere between 1-3 hours from you.  If you go you are likely to see 13-30 players in what is mostly a scrubby metagame.  You'll have 5% people who know what they are doing but have no motivation to play truly brutal decks.  You'll have 20-35% young kids agest 8-15 playing atrocious multiplayer or mono green decks.  The remainder is a mix of decks pulled from t2 and extended, but which may or may not have been Type oned - or a mix of other randomness.

These tournaments are all over the place and they are a blight for type one.  

Why?  First of all - these tournaments crop up because a group of people in a local store decide they want to do tournaments and becuase Type One is all the legal cards, the store owner agrees to do a Type One tournament.  OR They have done Type Two but want something that everyone can compete in without entry barriers.

See the problem with this picture?  I don't have a problem with type one not having entry barriers - that's why I allow proxies in all our local tournaments.  But these pictures I have painted are a regression and harmful for type one.

Competition is the engine of innovation.  These wildly incoherent metagames give us awful predictions of what needs to be restricted.  Bazaar or Workshop could murder in these fields, but as I decribe here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5978

We can't have type one policy based on these fields.

Worse, these fields inspire no innovation becuase they aren't truly competitve.  In fact, they are harmful in the long run becuase on a weekly basis type one cannot grow.  

Peopel are married, have lives, have jobs - they can't dedicate an entire evening on a REGULAR basis - esp. a social evening - to playing Type One - or justify it to their career or gf or wife.  

I think the best way to do type one tournaments is this:

1) Do them NO more than once every three weeks.  Once a month or once a quarter is preferable.

2) Always, always, always, put up a piece of power.  Adults do not want to show up for anything less

Well what about the weekly tournament?  Schedule weekly meetings, but spend that time testing.  That will grow interest in the format and also make it more competitive.  

What are the two biggest barriers to playing type one?

1) Money.  This is solved by an unlimited proxy rule using reason.  most people don't like to proxy - so this rule is not usually abused.  If it is, adjust it so that only rares  can be proxied.

2) Knowledge/Skill - this is solved by bringing other people into your crew.  People who don't want to be good - people who want to play with their bad decks shoulid not be encouraged.  I don't want their $15 entry fee.  But you are free to take it.  

This is, of course, my opinion - but I hope its a blueprint for success.  What I'm getting at is what we want from Vintage.  Do we want competitive tournaments or a format where we wallow in our favorite cards that won't ever rotate out?  

Steve

[Jakedasnake]

Excactly. In fact, I've taken a leaf out of your book and made the tournaments I run full proxie. The interested in Type 1 has grown so much around my area, and many of the competetive Type 2 players have started showing up. The whole idea is just brilliant. I encourage people to come with nothing real besides Brainstorms, just because Type 1 is so damn fun, everybody should try.

I have tournaments bi monthly, and I'd never think of doing them sooner than that. When I do run one, there is always a large showing, so everybody is satisfied with the prizes dished out.

Pfft, who wants to play in a tourny if you aren't playing for power?

Anyway, you hit the nail right on the head.

[Smmenen]

I should probably explain why these little tournaments that I charactured are so bad.  They aren't really into type one - they are about playing any format that they can.  Type One should not be the fall back format.  Type One is the format you Aspire to - not the format you fall back on.  That's Type Two or Block.

Good Job Jake.

Steve

[xrizzo]

I would like to see steady monthly tournaments.  It would be very easy to schedule (2nd saturday of the month or whatever) and would allow for enough time to test/tweak decks in the meantime.

Type One has really changed from 1995 because of the players themselves.  Unlike in other formats, there is a limited number of power cards which are in a high percentage of winning decks.  If the owners of these cards are not as motivated to play as they once were (read: their lives are getting in the way) then the venues for competition will ultimately need to adjust to fit the modified lifestyle, or face a lower number of power players.

This is not a bad revelation, but simply a fact.  I think that the dedicated players can still meet up more than once per month - but in a different context - as you describe.  All players can get up for 4-12 power tournaments in a year.

[Raph Caron]

Just a remark :

I don't see how winning Power is good if unlimited proxies are allowed. I'd rather get cash.

[Smmenen]

Our tournament this week is Mox of your choice (except no jet), or $200 cash.  

Or you could turn the mox into cash pretty easily.

Steve

[Cuandoman]

What sort of entry fee are you looking at when you hold the tournaments? It has to cover the cost of the Mox plus compensate the store owner, right?

[Smmenen]

Moxen run on ebay from 200 (pearls) to 300 (Sapphires) and mostly are in between.  The store owner had  nothing else planned and only has to make space.  He gets each cent becuase its his moxen.  He has like 13 pieces he's been saving just for this, coincidentally.  I was going to put up my own, but I don't need to.

Averaging a mox at around $250, then at $15 a person, than 20 people mean you made $50 bucks.  

I'm SHOCKED That more Europeans don't do this.  They get a SAVAGE deal in the exchange rate and are basially able to buy Moxen for $125.

Steve

[ctthespian]

Steve:  See Caron's post is a good example of why having unlimited proxies is bad.  It's possible I'm taking the post wrong.  Proxies to me have always been a curse and a blessing.  They are great because they generate interest and draw players that have yet to collect the cards they are proxying.  However it also attracts players that have no interest in ever collecting the cards they win.

Personally I'd be a bit upset if a person is sitting across the table from me with proxies of full power and bazaars and even dual lands running dragon.dec, when they are more used to running "broodstar affinity t2.dec."

All the "Type Two causes cancer" jokes aside.  I'd probablly play in weekly Type Two tournaments at my store if I had the money to spend on the cards to compete.  However I have made the choice to play Type 1 and I've collected the cards to do so.  Nothing pisses me off more than some T2 player winning a mox and selling it, never having the intention to keep it.

As far as you theory on type 1 tournaments.  Maybe I'm just blessed to be living in New England.  At least twice a month if not more there are quality power tournaments within driving distance.  There are even local tournaments and sanctioned type 1 tournaments that draw decent competition.

Here there is not the 5% of players that know what they are doing.  I'd say there are 50% thay know what they are doing.  Of that 50% I'd say 10-20% of them don't own the cards they need to be competitive so they build budget varieties of proven decks.  Even in quality tournaments there are scrubs in attentance that may not be up for the competition.  I'd say that 25% of the 191 players at the last waterbury could have saved their money, but did that stop the tournament for being a great environment.

In my opinion proxies have to be a special consideration, not a standard.  If you allow unlimited proxies in the long run you are hurting the collect ability of the cards more than reprints would.  There’d be no reason to drop over $100 on power cards if you can flip a card over and write mox on the back.

Despite all my ramblings here I do like the idea of trying to get players to focus on their playing and deckbuilding skills as opposed to just competing is great.  That is what Type 1 needs is education for the unknowing.

-Keith

[Cuandoman]

The reason i ask is that I am like the only regular at the store with full power. The store started as Invasion was being released and so it has very little in the department of older cards (only what the staff has been able to buy via collections). There's like NO good T1 cards that the store owns.

So for me to get tournaments started, I would have to invest in the card myself and put it up, HOPING to make my money back.

I agree with you that monthly is the most often that the tournaments should be held. My problem is reaching a player base that will play.

Trust me, im frustrated!

[Jakedasnake]

When I hold the tournaments, I offer up nice pieces of power. What I do, since I don't have tons of extra sets, is buy packs of power, so to speak. Basically, what I mean, is that I'll buy a set of Power 9 from ebay. Since I have tournaments Bi-Monthly, there is a ton of interest, like mentioned. So, when I bought a set a few months ago, I've been able to run the tournements no problem. Because I bought bulk, I got a good deal, and am therefore able to offer better non-first place prizes.

Also, Bi-Monthly may seem like it would be too few a year, but the tournaments are a lot more fun in themselves because people are always able to plan far ahead, move things around, and their is always a strong showing.

I also have a Friday night Type 1, for $1. It's crazy cool, because these are just casual, and everybody has an excellent time. Also, free pizza!

[Dr. Sylvan]

I think that full proxies is a bad idea. Five or even ten is reasonable because it's just such a long quest to becoming Powered. But at a certain point you've started proxying simple cards that are totally accessible. If I was running something, I would either say five proxies or proxy anything that SCGs for over $50.

Otherwise, your advice is very valid, Steve.

[Jakedasnake]

I've noticed that anybody that really enjoys Type 1 makes an investment in the format. Sure, people bring in full proxie decks once in a while, but if they like the format, they buy the real cards. If they don't, they wouldn't come back.

[brendan]

Biggest barrier for entry for me is actually finding a T1 tournament. They are extremely rare in Australia, despite the fact there is plenty of power around.

I occasionally convince shop owners to run T1 or 1.5 tourneys but without established T1 players, the field is always scrubby as hell. People tend to play powered mono-R burn with bazaars, powered underworld dreams and other crazy shit like that.

I've been to 3 vintage tournaments in Australia that I would say had a respectable metagame, and even in those my record is 13-1-1 playing completely unpowered mono-u fish.

[StasisMage]

Im pretty much in the same boat as brendan. Finding a T1 tourny in western Washington is hard and finding one that has one of the P9 up for grabs is even harder. The shop I go to and the only one in a respectable distance runs a monthly tourny and the Type 'is to be annouced' each month. This month its a T1.5 sponsered by my gaming club (In fact I have to miss a gaming session) we cant put up a pieace of the P9 cause we cant afford it the shop doesnt have one and theres like non in the area. So we put up an unopened pack of Legends.

Personally I dont think you have to put a P9 card to get people to come just something that would get them to come like old packs of the first few expansions or Alpha/Beta , Unlimted packs. Thats my two cents.

[StewieGriffin]

I think that full proxies is a bad idea. Five or even ten is reasonable because it's just such a long quest to becoming Powered. But at a certain point you've started proxying simple cards that are totally accessible. If I was running something, I would either say five proxies or proxy anything that SCGs for over $50.

Otherwise, your advice is very valid, Steve.

Type 1 players obviously have a far greater magic "Bankroll" then other players.  You imply that it is reasonable for someone to obtain any card less then $50.  That is a very big barrier for T2 and Extended players.  In T2 a card rarely hits $20, $10 is the typical high price.

I plan on attending the Columbus T1 tournament, however i would never consider doing so if i had to purchase $20+ dollar cards to do so.  Since it is an all proxy tournament it seems like a fun experience.  Events with all proxies are good for developing a new fan base, if they really enjoy it they will prbably work to obtain Power cards or "cheap" $20-$50 cards to play in larger tournaments like origins or the Waterbury open.

[jdl]

Go through this thread and replace every instance of the word "proxy" with the word "reprint".  It makes a pretty good argument.

1. Barrier to entry is lower.
2. More good decks show up at your local tournaments.
3. Sanctioned tournaments get a huge boost in player population.
4. WotC gets paid.
5. My Betas still look better than your reprints.
6. Foil Power.

Locally, we have a proxy tournament on the Friday before the big monthly Sunday tournament.  The other Fridays are all regular sanctioned events.

-- Jim

[skecreatoR]

At my 'local' store, T1 is a recent event beginning in late november, and further on being the last saturday of every month. I have yet to actually compete in these events, I have a tendency of sleeping

Anyway, the first tournament with some pricing you actually want to attend is this month, were a Unl. Mox Pearl is up for grabs, next month it being a Mox Emerald. There is about 40 people every time, paying about 8$ a piece, 320$, which should easily pay a mox, but there is pricing to the whole top8, so they probably don't earn any money. Too bad, but at least the people attending are rising, so there will probably become a regular power piece every tournament.

That said, our metagame is scrub. There is both rogue and other weird decks that hardly satisfies, but yet a big bunch of the great danish magic players attend, so we do have some people fully powered playing viable archetypes; Keeper, ScepterTog, GAT, MBC, Dragon and so forth. There is also Goblins and WW able to run whatever you play over just because some of them are so rogue that you cannot imagine. Annoying. I am going to play unpowered UW Landstill next time, and I presume I will do well.

My point being to attract players to this format, there must be some sort of price that you want. If you cant win anything noteworthy, why gather the expensive cards? To make sure T1 grows more, the competitive level must rise to higher standards.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Type 1 players obviously have a far greater magic "Bankroll" then other players.  You imply that it is reasonable for someone to obtain any card less then $50.  That is a very big barrier for T2 and Extended players.  In T2 a card rarely hits $20, $10 is the typical high price.

I plan on attending the Columbus T1 tournament, however i would never consider doing so if i had to purchase $20+ dollar cards to do so.  Since it is an all proxy tournament it seems like a fun experience.  Events with all proxies are good for developing a new fan base, if they really enjoy it they will prbably work to obtain Power cards or "cheap" $20-$50 cards to play in larger tournaments like origins or the Waterbury open.

Well, I didn't say it was cheap, but I will contend that requiring most cards to be real keeps the gears of the gaming world working in that stores, websites, and WotC itself all need us to buy cards to keep in business. It's just unreasonable to break the foundation of a collectible game like that. The $20-50 range of cards contains a couple of the blue dual lands, Masticore, Morphling, Exalted Angel (till it rotates), and probably a couple of others that I'm forgetting. The reason for drawing the line at fifty is that it's a nice round number, and the cards in the midrange are few in number. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect players to buy dual lands if they want to play Vintage.

Though it would be nice if they would bring dual lands back to Standard. :)

[vintagethug01]

I've had pretty good success with the unlimited proxie rule. When I first started playing T1 seriously two years ago, the only deck I had was my brother's suicide black deck, and a handful of decent cards. My friend had told me about Bdominia, and told me to read the primers. He told me to proxie out the cards I didn't own, and play the decks as if I had the cards. I started to play keeper, becuase I've always been a big fan of control. Playing that deck made me realize the true value of power and other more expensive cards. At that point, I knew I had to finish the deck, and it was only 20% complete. I began to rip myself off in trades tryng to get more valueble cards, and the proxie deck that I once had started to look real. I'm only missing a few pieces of power and a Library now, and I have to say, If I would have never been allowed to use proxies at tournaments, I would have never developed an interest in competative Type One.

[StewieGriffin]

Well you may consider it breaking the foundation by having so many proxies, but you never going to draw much of a new audience with such a high cost to begin playing.  It's easy to get people into Type 2 or Extended b/c you can thrw to together a relatively cheap deck and easily borrow cards you may not have and still be competitive.  However trying to play a budget deck and getting smashed is not going to encourage new people to T1.

By letting new people in you by no way hurt the business but at least offer a small chance for some new players who would quite likely move on to larger tournaments and therefore build a collection.

I'm not saying use proxies for all tournaments, but if you have any hope of expanding the game it would be beneficial to use all proxies for smaller tournaments.

[Ifflejink]

I live in Colorado, and in my area it's a dystopia for type 1, with the exception of me and the two powered players. There was a mox tournament a few weeks back, and all the same old scrubs showed up. It hardly even mattered. BTW, it seemed that in the original post, you said that most players under sixteen play horrible green/casual decks. I'm 14, and I play Landstill, Fish, and Oshawa Stompy (budget version). Just clearing that up.

[Gothmog]

Smmenen's assumptions and desires regarding tournaments certainly run contrary to our experience.  Type I tournaments are not just about quarterly ego amplification while the rest of the time is spent with teammates cooking up secret tech.  

Some of us actually enjoy playing competitively.  In our area, we have weekly $5 entry Type I tournaments  and a once a month Power tournament.  This is a great setup.  It allows me to put together whatever crazy idea I have had most recently and play games in a tournament setting getting an idea of what works and what doesn't and my only investment is some time and less than the price of a glass of beer at most bars around here.  Once a month, we have the big tournament for Power and more people come out with generally better decks.

In our metagame, this has had several benefits:

1) Our metagame has generally "improved" (at least become more like themanadrain, with more decks based on archtypes discussed here) even at the weekly tournaments

2) Type I is much more heavily played in our area than it previously had been

3)  Any given Friday, you can be sure some scrubby decks will show, but over half will be solid decks of one type or another, ensuring if your deck is decent, you will find good games at some point during the tournament

In our area, our experience has clearly been that regular "scrubby" Type I tournaments has increased the interest in Type I, resulting in more people in the area with power and a higher level of competitiveness of Type I.

[Jhaggs]

Thanks for the topic Steve.

   Myself and a Friend are actually in the midst of setting up a major type 1 tournament for the SF Bay Area.  Steve is right on the mark with his comments about having power as the prize AND holding big events every so often.  Personally, I feel once a quarter is best.  Of course Friday night magic is fun or some other weekly variant, but it isn't feasible or necessary to hold "superbowls" every week.  INterest would be lost if things were done over and over.  Having a major event once a quarter allows for bigger turnouts because it allows for anticipation build up.  Not only that, but it also gives deck builders time to work on ideas without having to "test" during a tournament which allows for a more accurate reflection of a true meta field.

    Currently, my friend and I are debating over the amount of proxies that should be allowed.  We agree that in order to draw a big crowd some level of proxies should be allowed.  So far everyone's pro or con opinion on unlimited proxy has been engaging.  My biggest concern over the 5 proxy limit has to do with Smennen's observation that the meta may have been skewed towards certain decks in which players could with an optimal build.  An example of this could be scene with someone playing with oshawa stompy instead of keeper.  It is easier to compile a fully powered stompy deck than a fully powered keeper deck.  It's my goal to create some balance that enables players to play with the decks of their choice.  Maybe a limit at 9 or 10 proxy maybe the most feasible.

   One idea that we came up with is to have a really nice prize for the player who finishes the highest with a deck that has NO porxies.  This way it may encourage a fully powered player to compete because the chances of winning this prize is very high.  In a proxy tournament, virtually everyone will have a proxy card in their deck.  Now, players who actually have 60 real cards can shoot for an additional prize that is defintily attainable.  I personally love this idea.  I wonder, of the Waterbury top 8, who used proxies and who didn't?  Who finished the highest with a real deck?

   For our tournament we are considering selling 1 dollar nicely colored scan proxies.  Do you think that people would buy these?  I would like to avoid seeing islands that say black lotus if possible.

[Jhaggs]

Sorry for the double post but I felt that this was extremely relevant to include.  In the "crappy" forums I wrote a post asking for help organizing a tournament.  "Mr. Waterbury" wrote back with excellent tips on how to get started:

http://zherbus.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=tourny&action=display&num=1073045245

Ray writes:

Hi...as the organizer of the Waterbury type 1 tournaments I'd just like to say I fully support anyone trying to make more places/events to play type 1...we need more people like you. Let me give my 0.02 to help you out as best I can.

1. What are the most important things in starting a tournament? I realize that this is pretty general but I want to make sure that I have the basis covered as far as the tournament basics are concerned: how to match opponents together, lenth of matches, lenth of tournamnent (rounds), ect.

There are many very important things to getting a tournament scene off the ground. The first and foremost is for the first event(since these things take time to grow) is to give yourself quite alot of planning time for your first event. I announced my first tourney 2.5 months in advance...you need to give yourself plenty of time to plan the first one because you really need to get the word out and the first one sets the stage...almost like a first impression.

To match opponents together and to handle all the other basic ranking procedures, I would really recommend trying to get ahold of the dci software program...although you may not sanction the events...the program is invaluable to handling all the pairings and result entry. If know no one with the software, try contactin someone at the DCI at wizards.com.

50 minute rounds are customary with 5 additional turns. You should run the tournament swiss with a cut to top 8. To determine the number of rounds, take the number of players you have and round up to the nearest power of 2. Whatever your exponent is...that's how many rounds of swiss you have. Estimate the tourney will last 1 hour for each round plus about 4 hours for the top 8.

2. Is a pre-registration a better option in order to establish a head count?

It's been my opinion that pre-registration is a waste of time. You can usally gauge your attendance by counting all your definites(people who you are 100% are going) taking about 1/5 of your wishy-washeys and adding about 10% of that number for people who heard through the grapevine. That estimate almost always works great for me.

3. How willing are card stores to allow you to dispense flyers to their customers?

It depends. NEVER ask a card store to hold flyers if they are holding an event on the same day. It is rude and puts the store owner in a very awkaward position. If that day is clear for the store owner, ask nicely, and offer to mention there store at your event. Also if the store has flyers or business cards...put them at the head table at your event. If you do this successfully and even just one person mentions that they heard about the store at your tourney, you're golden. Also, if you need to buy prizes for your tourney...be sensible...and by them at the store(s) that hold flyers for you...even if you have to pay a buck or two more...trust me...what goes around comes around.

4. If I am renting a hall for the tournament do I need addtional insurance for anything? (I ask this becuase of the likely hood of minors).

I have had problems with fights/stealing/etc. I haven't taken insurance or anything like that because even when those things happened, it is the general consensus that neither myself nor the hotel was negligent. Furthermore, I have taken drastic(and some would say unfair) steps to keep out those who are potentially offenders(costing myself about $50-$100 per tournament)...so I guess, actually, yes...in that respect...I am paying for insurance.

5. How do you get a DCI judge or equivilent? If this is a proxy tourny what is the standard in deciding game disputes? Do you just use a VERY knowledgable person? (My experiences with type 1 is that pretty much everyone who plays has a good grasp on the rules...but things do come up).

I find that you don't need a DCI judge as much as someone who knows all DCI procedures and Type one rulings. Some basics...while you are starting out.
1.) simply find the most rules-knowledgable person you know and ask him to be your judge.
2.) Download the most recent oracle wording for every card and have it on your laptop.
3.) Have a copy of DCI Floor Rules and Penalty Guidelines. Again, even though I don't sanction my events(because proxies=higher attendance) I still run it as though it were DCI sanctioned.

6. What is the protocol as far as cheating is concerned? I have never actually witnessed a cheating incident so I'm not sure if there are established rules for this. What's the best course of action if there is a "he said, she said" incident where an allegation of cheating is brought forth but with no evidence?

This question is impossible for me to answer as it is very situation specific.

7. What are some definite keys to having a sucessful tournament?

Give away tons of prizes. I'm serious...this may seem obvious/dumb/costly...but if you give tons of little door prizes with a decent first prizes and maybe second third and fourth place prizes as opposed to one humongous first prize...more people will leave happy and more people will want to come back...I know it seems dumb but people are obviously much happier leaving with some $5 prize then nothing at all and that first place prize winner is coming back whether he wins a lotus, mox, or a mana drain.

8. What are some things that make a tournament poorly run?

The three biggest complaints I hear.
1.) Poor judge rulings
2.) Tournament ran too late
3.) Cheating going on

Stop these 3 things first...then worry about the smaller stuff.

9. What are the best ways to market the tournament? How long should you advertise the tournament before having it?

For the first one give 2 months...after that you can curb it down. Use the manadrain.com to promote your event. Also, don't expect to make a huge profit right off the bat...probabbly not even for the first year. First, build your player pool. Offer some commission for players bringing other new players. Also, build up a mailing list and network with as many stores as you can. To sum up...the first year is all about establishing and building...after that...concentrate on growing larger.

[Ifflejink]

Proxies are important, as most players aren't powered. If you have only powered players come to tournaments, you'll end up with a closed and uninteresting meta.

[Cuandoman]

Couldn't you limit the proxies to cards that haven't been reprinted from Mirage on (for example)? You could use a set release at which you think the players have a feasable chance of still getting the cards without spending their tuition money.

[Jhaggs]

Couldn't you limit the proxies to cards that haven't been reprinted from Mirage on (for example)? You could use a set release at which you think the players have a feasable chance of still getting the cards without spending their tuition money.

There are many different ways you can go about setting up a proxy tournament:  5 proxy, 10 proxy, Unlimited proxy, "non-reprintable" proxies only, "Over 50 dollar cards" proxy, ect.  I think it would be extremely advantagous if the community itself could decide on the best option and try to make that the standard.  If a standard tournament format was created, the data from those tournaments would be much more consistant.  For example, Steve's Unlimited Proxy tournament will have a much different pool of decks than Ray's Waterbury tournament.  WOuldn't it be better to discover and discuss what the meta actually is if the fields on data were collected under similliar circumstances?

[Smmenen]

Anyone else have different/similar experiences?

Steve

[Raven Fire]

Just a remark :

I don't see how winning Power is good if unlimited proxies are allowed. I'd rather get cash.

Well, thanks to eBay, etc.:  Power = cash (if you want it to).