[Deck]Eastman for the masses

[XnecrontyrX]

Eastman just posted this deck in the T1 forum, but I like it alot so I was wondering what others thought?

Mana:
7 SoloMoxen
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
2 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Library
1 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy

Draw
4 Impulse
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Future Sight
2 Stifle

Kill
2 Decree of Justice

Counter Base
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak

Awesome cards that just go in control decks and don't require explanation
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor

Other Spells (the ones that 'keep')
2 Swords
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Stifle
2 Cunning Wish
1 Balance
1 Mind twist



SIDEBOARD (always subject to massive change for the particular meta)
1 Swords
1 BEB
1 Disenchant
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Coffin Purge
1 Fire/Ice
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric tutor

I personally want to try to find a spot for an Enlightened Tutor to get to the Chains/Isochron more quickly, but I can't find the room in the deck, and I might just be paranoid to want to accelerate those pieces out.

[Jakedasnake]

I really, really like this version of 'Keeper'.

The whole concept is quite good. Seriously, the only decks not hurt by Chains are Sligh, and sui black, both which don't see much play.

Future Sight and Impulse are pretty good replacements, not optimal, but they're the only cards that function under a Chains.

The only thing I would change is the lack of Fact or Fiction, and probably some Fire/Ice for those Scepters.

Are the second Stifles supposed to be Cunning Wishes? I assume so, but one never knows...

[Viceroy]

On the counter base why not  duress instead of manaleak?

[Jakedasnake]

I believe this has been said quite often...

But Duress isn't a card that fits in a control deck's strategy. Obviously, it's a pro-active counter, and by definition, control is a reactive deck, thus it doesn't need to disrupt the opponent to play a threat. By the time the control player would want to play a win condition, they're basically already winning.

Make sense?

[Viceroy]

Already know that duress is proactive, but in this particular version of `keeper' the idea is to play the hoser(CoM) as quickly as possible( against tog/keeper/still/etc ), duress fits better than leak in this particular case.
Also, against combo is a better option. I think it deserves testing.

Anyway depends on the metagame you are facing, in an aggro metagame i would play manaleak.

[Matt]

Seriously, the only decks not hurt by Chains are Sligh, and sui black, both which don't see much play.

Madness isn't much affected by it. On the other hand, THAT doesn't see much play either.

[Jakedasnake]

Well, that too.

My bad, brain fart. It's really late...

[kakeboy07]

Eastman just posted this deck in the T1 forum, but I like it alot so I was wondering what others thought?

Mana:
7 SoloMoxen
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
2 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Library
1 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy

Draw
4 Impulse
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Future Sight
2 Stifle   Im assuming theyre only 2 stifles md

Kill
2 Decree of Justice

Counter Base
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak

Awesome cards that just go in control decks and don't require explanation
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor

Other Spells (the ones that 'keep')
2 Swords
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Cunning Wish
1 Balance
1 Mind twist



SIDEBOARD (always subject to massive change for the particular meta)
1 Swords
1 BEB
1 Disenchant
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Coffin Purge
1 Fire/Ice
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric tutor

I personally want to try to find a spot for an Enlightened Tutor to get to the Chains/Isochron more quickly, but I can't find the room in the deck, and I might just be paranoid to want to accelerate those pieces out.

couple of questions

1

How has this deck tested versus aggro Eastman? I threw the list together on MWS tonight, and after playing in keeper fashion against some great aggro control drawing decks (ie hulk) ... i then proceeded to get stomped by Big O and R/G as well as dryad sligh.  I just couldnt hold out long enough to draw into what i needed to win.

I ran into some major problems with land screwage as well. 2 Wastelands spelt defeat twice as i didnt have the available mana for either StoP or Mana Drain (no tundra). I had a waste and 2 moxen but they were just the wrong colors.

Question #2 In game 2, do you find your Red mana enough to play all the spells that you side in against Opposing scepter control or Survival mask, or Slaver? I havent tested as much as im sure you have, however, i was just wondering what testing has shown post s/b in these matchups.


Just some quick questions from someone with a little bit of time, and a whole lotta interest in CoM... That card is SWEET.

Thanks for showing us the deck, very nice to look at, and it gives me a fuzzy feeling knowing that something that "keeps" as you put it, can hold back the insaine draw engines that are around these days.

[Eastman]

The stifles were, of course, an oversight. There are only two in the current build.


As far as your questions Kakeboy:
1. Aggro is difficult but winnable. If expected in the meta Aggro can be severely hated with a good sideboard. As always, skill and experience with keeper are crucial to winning against well built aggro.

2. You obviously need to fetch a Volcanic fairly early in these matchups. Survival mask is appropriately a very difficult matchup and is one where the Mana Leak's really shine.


I encourage all of your testing with the deck and look forward to your continued advisement.

Oh and don't forget the name : Revenge of Mephistopheles.

[Methuselahn]

Well, I haven't tested YOUR version of mephistopheles keepr, but I can tell you that Chains is absolute ass against many matchups.  I really think that this card is a metagame SB card right now.

Getting ahead in 'CA' is important yes, but must be obtained before you throw down chains, or you are reliant on Isochrons.  Since you are not locking your opponent out with chains, it is merely a discard outlet to madness, a way to get dragon into the grave, and a method to get Slaver/Juggernaught/Tanglewire into the grave in order to weld.  Some say that it shuts down Bazaar when in fact, testing has shown us that it just replaces it, (without drawing).

There are some things that I really like about the deck.  I'm interested in seeing where the interaction between Sight and Chains ends up.

What about Merchant Scroll.  Search is so good with Chains. obv.

I am going to take this opportunity to say that I have 4 english Chains for sale.  (in great condition...i can get scans) PM me if interested.

[BreathWeapon]

MD STPs are probably better than the Stifles. I'd advocate Keeper players use 3 of them MD anyway, Aggro is everywhere. The deck's synergy with Chains is pretty awesome, but wouldn't it make more sense to SB them in game 2 instead of taking up MD slots?

[Spizzard]

If i'm remembering correct, a few Suicide black builds ran 2 chains maindecked a while back.  Suicide mind you, no draw, and little search.   I believe because you don't 'always' want a chain.  It just isn't that good.

Now 'keeper' should be able to get a chain fairly easy when it wants.  It does help in some matchups, but isn't that good against others (obviously).  But it does weaken the maindeck.  As someone said, the Aggro matchups are now that much worse and would seem almost unwinnable.  If the two chains main were Fire/Ice, I can see them being that much better.  As well as, if you took out the chains main, you can run 'better' draw such as Brainstorm.  

IMO, I see chains as strictly a 2 of in the side, or a solid metagame component (side).  It would take an awful lot of metagaming to consider running it main.

[Eastman]

IMO, I see chains as strictly a 2 of in the side, or a solid metagame component (side).  It would take an awful lot of metagaming to consider running it main.

Have you SEEN tier 1?

[Klep]

This is a very interesting concept for a deck.  I wish I had Chains so I could try it out.  Though I saw some people telling you to run Fire/Ice, with the Swords and Decrees you probably don't need it as badly as other Scepter decks do.  I doubt I'd main-deck it unless I expected to face a lot of aggro, particularly if, as you seem to have discovered, the leaks work well.

One question though, have you tried Misdirection in the place of the leaks?  It seems to me that MisD's are the other obvious choice for those 2 slots, and if you haven't, it may be worth looking at them.  Since Gush was restricted, it seems people have, for the most part, forgotten about the card and are relatively unprepared to deal with it. I could see arguments both for and against it, but I'm curious about what you think.

-David 'Klep' Kleppinger, Raving Lunatic

[Toad]

In a metagame full of Brainstorms, Accumulated Knowledges, Timetwisters, Ancestral Recalls, Skeletal Scryings, Grafted Skullcaps, Wheels of Fortune, Bazaars of Bagdad and Thirsts for Knowledge (...), Chains of Mephistopheles is good. Even most of the good Aggro decks have a draw engine (see Madness and O'Stompy). The only good decks that are not affected by Chains of Mephistopheles are TNT and Stacker.

[Spizzard]

Look at where Chains is good straight from the Jan-Feb Gauntlet decks.

Aggro Decks

Madness
Oshawa Stompy/Big O/GPR
TnT

Control Decks

Hulk/r
B2b Hulk
Keeper (No Secepters)
Scepter Control
Landstill
U/r
Mono Blue


Combo Decks

Dragon
TPS
Neo-Long

Prison Decks

Slavery
Neo-Mud


Aggro-Control

Fish
Gay/R
GAT

Aggro-Combo

Mono Black Mask

This may not be the most complete list, but it is still very representative of what you may find in a random tourney.

Aggro

Madness - Chains is okay, it does stop bazaar, but it is still mediocre at best.  I would side it out for more removal.  Bazaars are best left to Wastes/Stifle.
Oshawa Stompy/Big O/GPR -  See above.
TnT - Chains sucks here as well.

Control

Hulk/r  - Good, helps keep the game level in drawing.  Gives keeper the advantage with its different type of 'draw'

B2b Hulk - Same

Keeper (No Scepters) - The chain player has the advantage, but if you were playing Traditional keeper with chains Side, the advantage would still be there and Game 1 is a mirror.

Scepter Control -  Matchup isn't as good as it should be.  A scepter is harder to deal with with 2 Cunning Wishes and Disenchant, Rack and Ruin side.  However, you still can* shut down their draw.

Landstill - Chains is good, if you get it to resolve fast enough/before a Standstill.  U/r has no way to remove Chains outside of bounce.  White has options to remove.

U/r - See above for standstill/AK build, Phid Builds are slower, but usually use Scepters.  Chains is good against both version.

Mono Blue - See U/r

Combo


Dragon - The draw isn't really affected.  Unless I'm mistaken, they can still cycler through their library with Compulsion.  Bazaar is only usefull for a while.  Your hope is that they haven't gotten an Ambassador in the grave.

TPS - Stops Draw 7's and Brainstorms.  But you have to get chains down really early.

Neo-Long - See above... Add Chromatic Sphere's.

Prison Decks

Slavery - Chains sucks
Neo-Mud - "              "


Aggro-Control

Fish - Chains stops Standstills, Brainstorms and Curiosity, but StP stops Curiosity as well as Fire/Ice.  Normally, fish would outdraw you, but with Chains, you have the advantage.

Gay/R - See above

GAT - Chains is good... if you can get it to resolve before they set up draw or a win condition.  

Aggro-Combo

Mono Black Mask - Chains is bad

6 Bads, 10 Goods, 3-4 Mediocre
 
Many of the now bads, weren't bad matchups before.  You've added a dead card and have a weaker draw component. This is the main reason I said this is more of a metagame decision.

You obviously can't go into a tourney expecting to only face tier 1.  Any of the above have a shot at winning.  Which is why I said Chains is more of a metagame card.  If you have a lot of Control/aggro control, Chains would be a 'decent' mainboard answer.  But against most Aggro and some combo, chains is sub-par compared to what you could have run.
(Also note, the gauntlet doesn't include commonly played decks such as Sligh/RG, 'suicide')

Many Bargain decks, which chains is very good against, aren't played often.  Chains could be a maindeck choice if they were played as often as before/make a comeback, but otherwise, the side is a great place for them.

I do like the new version, but if I play with it, the chains will be sided and 2 Fire/Ice run in their place. Along with another Wasteland added.

[Toad]

We are not talking about local tourneys with kids and their Elves decks here. We're talking about highly powered tournaments such as GenCon, where you *can* expect to face only Tier 1 or Tier 2 decks. This is why Chains is not a metagame card. It's like saying Blood Moon is a metagame card because everybody plays Weenie White and Sligh in your metagame.

[Hyperion]

I could see Chains being OK against O Stompy, but much less so against Madness. Why? Because Madness is very good at Bazaaring on an empty hand.

In some situations, I could even see Madness being able to use Chains to its advantage as an extra discard outlet.

I didn't mean to detract from the main topic conversation, but just wanted to point that out since people have started analyzing Chains' effectiveness against the field, and I think have drawn incorrect conclusions regarding its effectiveness in this matchup.

[Eastman]

The place where chains is good against dragon is in shutting down their draw engine and keeping them from getting card advantage.

[Methuselahn]

The place where chains is good against dragon is in shutting down their draw engine and keeping them from getting card advantage.

Oh come on.  Shut down their draw engine?  Have you tested against Dragon with Squee using Chains?

Look, the Bazaar player does not need to use Bazaar as a draw engine because your draw engine is already horseshit.  So 'outdrawing' the control player with Dragon isn't really a problem, made more noticeable by the fact that they are actually taking more cards from their library because of said Squees.

I've been thinking about this thread since I posted my first response.  It is really starting to sound like one of those practical joke threads. (remember Revenge of 1997 Keepr by ccw, anyone?)  No offense Eastman.  Look at what Chains does... it hoses draw engines.  What does a typical control deck rely on to overcome it's opponents' tempo and threats??... draw cards and foil their plans.  Chains not only sucks vs Keepr's worst match-up, but you have to run sub-optimal cards like impulse to create some synergy with the rest of the deck.

Chains of Mephistopheles is a great card, but lets keep it in quirky lock decks and mono black sideboards.

So, show me more match up analysis and prove my ass wrong because I'd LOVE to see chains MD + in a 'tier 1' deck.

EDIT: response to toad instead of double posting...

We are not talking about local tourneys with kids and their Elves decks here. We're talking about highly powered tournaments such as GenCon, where you *can* expect to face only Tier 1 or Tier 2 decks. This is why Chains is not a metagame card. It's like saying Blood Moon is a metagame card because everybody plays Weenie White and Sligh in your metagame.

We are?!? I missed where it said this deck was for Gencon only.  I think there is a nice middleground between elfdeck.tourney and GenCon.  I also think this middleground is the case for most on a weekly basis.  I also assume that this site is geared for all Type 1 play, not just pro Vintage players with unlimited funds and/or full proxy allowance (aka the TMD metagame).

[FireFall26]

Keeper is also based on shutting down their opponents resources (lands, cards in hand, draw spells).  This keeper is obviously more aimed towards that, but doesn't loos card advatange with cards like impulse.

[Jakedasnake]

One of Keeper's weak points IS the lack of a strong draw engine. In fact, it plays very few draw spells in comparison to many other control decks.

All Chains does is make up for this weakness. Keeper simply can't outdraw most other control decks. However, with a resolved Chains, this is a non issue.

It shuts down almost every single draw spell in the game, and this deck takes advantage of the ones not affected.

Like mentioned, Chains does nothing against random crap.dec, but, in a strong and healthy metagame, in places like NE, Chains seems like a strong choice.

[Spizzard]

Its a good choice against some decks, but not against as many as it should.  See my post earlier.  Which is why i'm going to suggest two things.

A.) Cut down to 1 chains main.  Add Vampiric back to the mainboard.  Side the other chains.  If you wanted search SB, try LimDuls Vault.

B.) Run Chains as strictly a sideboard card.

One of Keeper's weak points IS the lack of a strong draw engine. In fact, it plays very few draw spells in comparison to many other control decks.

And now the decks that didn't need draw to win have a much easier matchup.  This Keepers 'draw' engine is meant to get around chains, it greatly weakens many matchups.

[Jakedasnake]

That's quite obvious. However, Eastman has obviously tuned his deck towards the NE meta, which is heavy control. Chains greatly improves the Control matchup, and can stop even aggro decks from gaining large advantage through Bazaar.

[nietzreznor]

I'm not sure how useful Chains is against bazaar-based aggro.  I can see its utility against Dragon, but Madness uses Bazaar as much as a discard outlet as a draw engine, and Big O has Survival that it can use.
    So, if this deck is built for a very control heavy metagame, I can understand the choice.  But if one is expecting TNT, Madness, Mask, then I'm not sure how useful it would be.

[Kowal]

Chains is ALWAYS useful, even if only slightly.  I play friggen Ninja Mask for god's sake, and it was even messing with me.  Everyone and their mother runs Brainstorm, which SUCKS ASS under Chains.  Compulsion is always ballsack (yes, even in Dragon, but I'm not here to get in to that argument again)  but under Chains it sucks twice as much.  Paying mana for card disadvantage sucks a ton.  Bazaars make you just lose, since discarding five cards to draw two sucks, even in a deck with madness spells and squees, since eventually you discard business, and that's never cool.  Why do you think decks with bazaars tend to run ways to find their squees?  Curiosity would never see play if it made your cards cycle when you deal combat damage.  It's awesome against Hulk, it's strong against more traditional keeper, and it just wins against decks with draw sevens.  It's a two cost way to keep a combo deck from out-brokening you.  Did I mention it makes Mind's Eye suck too?

I've ranted and rambled for some time now, but I hope the point I make is very clear.  Chains is not a metagame card in an environment where draw spells exist.  I'm pretty sure we've advanced beyond 1995.

[nietzreznor]

@Kowal:  You are right about Ninja Mask, I forgot about the Brainstorms.  The problem, though, is that Chains ISN'T always useful, like against TNT (which will have maybe 1 Wheel or Jar, and possibly Simacrulems, which shouldn't be a factor anyways), and against Spoils mask, which has zero draw (outrside of Necro, which gets around Chains anyways).  
     I agree that Chains does a great job shutting down a Bazaar engine, especially against Dragon, but the only problem is that it is only minimally effective against something like Madness.  Madness has almost no "business" to discard... all the stuff it wants to play (outside of Mongrel, which usually hits play early anyways)-- Arrogant Wurm, Rootwalla, Deep Analysis, Roar--all want to be discrded anyways.
    I'm not saying that Chains isn't a strong choice--I happen to be very much interested in this build.  But the metagame HAS to be considered; Keeper is a metagame deck.

[Eastman]

The problem, though, is that Chains ISN'T always useful, like against TNT (which will have maybe 1 Wheel or Jar, and possibly Simacrulems, which shouldn't be a factor anyways), and against Spoils mask, which has zero draw (outrside of Necro, which gets around Chains anyways).  
     I agree that Chains does a great job shutting down a Bazaar engine, especially against Dragon, but the only problem is that it is only minimally effective against something like Madness.  Madness has almost no "business" to discard... all the stuff it wants to play (outside of Mongrel, which usually hits play early anyways)-- Arrogant Wurm, Rootwalla, Deep Analysis, Roar--all want to be discrded anyways.
    I'm not saying that Chains isn't a strong choice--I happen to be very much interested in this build.  But the metagame HAS to be considered; Keeper is a metagame deck.

Of course the metagame matters, but the general type 1 meta contains decks that draw quite a few cards, and outside of the matchups you mentioned and a couple others, the chains are very useful. There are only 2 in the deck, and they can be boarded out, so they aren't a tremendous liability.

I played this deck in our Valentines day tournament in Hadley on Saturday, and went undefeated, bringing home a Mox Jet. You can see the updated build in my tournament report here

[DEA]

Did I mention it makes Mind's Eye suck too?

did i miss something, or does chains say that it doesn't apply to the first card drawn by A player during A draw phase?

[Eastman]

You didn't miss anything, Ben is mistaken.

You can draw off Fire/Ice during their draw step as well.