New Combo: NotLong.dec OR Draw7.dec

[Smmenen]

In my review of the restricted list, it became STRIKINGLY OBVIOUS that Diminishing Returns and Dark Ritual were highly conspicuous in thier absence from that list. This led to the next logical thought - why not try and build a combo deck to abuse both cards as much as possible. Time Sprial is restricted and no self-respecting combo player would EVER play with that card. Its awful.

Long was built around the synergy between Yawgmoth's Will and Lion's
Eye Diamond and consequently didn't care too much for Draw 7s. But
what about a deck that is overloaded with inexpensive draw 7s - Here is
that deck - its the complete opposite of long, but to the logical
EXTREME.

Abuse it while we can.

So I present:

NOT-LONG.DEC or DRAW7.DEC

Lands:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

Accelleration:
1 Fastbond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Mox Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Lotus Petal
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond*
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault

Mana Fixers:
3 Chromatic Sphere

Setting up/Protecting the Combo:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will (they are Awseom111!!one)
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk

Draw 7s Extraodinare:
3 Diminishing Returns
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister

BORKEN!!!PWNED!!!
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Tutors:
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
(no Mystical or Consult)

Finishers:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish

A few notes

Here are three cards I've tested and I have had mixed results in
goldfishing so far:

Chrome Mox (usable)
Crop Rotation (Mediocre)
Channel (never cast it)

I cut all three , one at a time, one-by-one, for three Chromatic
Spheres becuase I had them in my hand instead of a Sphere to get UU
for Diminishing Returns on turn 1-2. I'd like to add Fastbond and
Rotation back in but I have not idea what to cut at this point.
Additional, Channel should be tested at least BIT more, even if it
sucks.

When I win, I win about every game on turn one or two except
when I play Bargain or Necro and then I win on the following turn. Of
course I've only goldfished a dozen times so far.

This deck also needs to mulligan less than Long, but is also SOOO Much
stronger when it does mulligan by virtue of its empahsis on Draw7s.

I should probably find room for 4 Xantid Swarms in the maindeck, but I
have no fucking clue how.  I'm not even sure how to SB as of yet.

Probably the spirtual predecessor to this deck is Koen's "Diminishing Resistence" from last July.  You can find his list here
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11478

Since I started from scratch with the only idea to abuse Diminishing Returns and Dark Ritual as heavily as possible, I don't have alot of the mistakes that he made.  I look forward to discussing this deck with y'all.

Stephen Menendian

[cssamerican]

I am sure you tested this, but I got ask what about Cabal Ritual. It is Black mana which is more usefull than green mana provided by the ESGs and Threshold should be very easy to obtain with all the draw sevens. In fact, if there was ever a deck to abuse Cabal Ritual it would seem like this deck would have to be it.

[Wollblad]

The deck is strong, but one thing concerns me some: You only have two win conditions. Haven't you experienced that after playing a second Deminishing Returns that you stand without any win conditions? It seems, at least to me, like a probable senario. Then of course you could try Death Wish, but then we are back at the same concept as before. Or can it be worth having Yawgmoth's Will in sideboard and perhaps only 2 Deminishing Returns to fit in 2 Death Wish?

[Smmenen]

Cabal Ritual has no synergy with Twisters.

(EDIT: Wollbad beat me to it): Additionally, I want to head off this comment before someone else makes it - this deck has not once removed both of its win conditions with Returns.  It just doesn't happen - the math is rock solid.  Sure, once in a blue moon it could happen - but about the same liklihood of getting screwed in Long with Demonic Consulation - which this deck does not play.

The extended Desire deck has 4 Returns and only 2 Tendrils and there were no problems with that - and this only has 3 returns.

IF, for some reason, it were to happen, there are still ways to win.  Here is a backup plan. If both the Wish and the Tendrils are removed, I can try to get a HUGE desire and take three or four turns in a row using Time Walk and win with 2-3 Elvish Spirit Guides. Its not that hard - if I get desire up to about 15 or so, I can Timewalk, Timetwister, Time Walk- hopefully Returns, then Time Walk and Twister again, and then tutor up walk and then Walk and then Yawg will up the Time walk to Walk again.

Steve

[Ric_Flair]

Steve, I am not sure, and correct me if I am wrong, but are you using the D7s as sort of HUGE Impluses to grab cheap mana and keep going?  How does the deck play out?  Do you draw your deck or most of your deck in the final turn?

So many questions.  Great deck.  Now I have something to think about on the subway ride into the city every morning.

[Smmenen]

No.  Diminishing Returns is an enormously powerful unrestricted card.  If you want a basic theory, the theory is rather simple.  The draw7s are card advantage generators.  They either a) generate mana advantage - give you more mana than they cost, b) tutor up insane spells like necro, or c) Time walk and have insane synergy with Fastbond.  

I don't even understand how you could compare it with Impulse.  There are only three cards that I can think of that generate you more mana than the CC of Impulse: Academy, Lotus, and LED.

Mostly, they just generate lots of mana from which you only need to find and play tendrilis to win.  But the draw7s also take control of the game.  Your opponent can't mulligan out of your first turn draw 7 should you not win on turn one.

Steve

[Wollblad]

@Smmenen
Well, if you say so I'll trust you.

Then the next Issue. There is really no synnergy between Lion's Eye Diamond and FoW and since you have 4 FoW you will probably have one when you draw your only Diamond. In that spot, how about a random Helm of Awekening? One can seem strange, but it can be tinkered for and having one out will make a large difference.

What about the sidebaord? 1 Deminishing Returns and 1 Tendrils I suppose, but then what? Here is a suggestion:

1 Deminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Hull Breach
1 Balance
4 Xantid Swarm (Keeper)
3 Hurkyl's Recall (Stax and Mud)
2 Chain of Vapor (mainly against U/w fish with both Null Rod and Meddling Mage)
2 Oxidize (also Keeper if you suspect Chalice)

I don't think this deck needs any Tormod's Crypt since the graveyards will be shuffled into the libraries all the time.

[Smmenen]

Your SB is almost exactly what I have together at the moment except the Chains are Naturalizes - but the Chains might be better.  As much of an abomination as this may sound, I may cut the Lion's Eye Diamond for Chrome Mox.  We shall see.

Steve

[cssamerican]

I am sure you tested this, but I got ask what about Cabal Ritual. It is Black mana which is more usefull than green mana provided by the ESGs and Threshold should be very easy to obtain with all the draw sevens. In fact, if there was ever a deck to abuse Cabal Ritual it would seem like this deck would have to be it.

I am an IDIOT!!! I forgot about the Twister effect of Diminishing Returns.

Smmenen, Future Sight would seem like a very strong card in this deck because every draw seven post "Resolved Future Sight" becomes at least a draw 8 and more than likely an auto win, especially if Fastbond is in play. Have you considered Future Sight, and if so why did it not make the cut?

[FakeSpam]

The decklist does look solid. I've scalped off my win conditions a couple of times in goldfishing, but I blame that on the apprentice shuffler more than the deck.

However, if you get Dark Ritual restricted, I will be very upset.

I don't see the need for future sight. It's a win-more card if anything, and also a bit expensive. 5 mana can almost cast two draw 7s.[/b]

[MarkPharaoh]

I agree with FakeSpam; Future Sight cost 5 mana which is a hefty price, espically the UUU in the cost.

I personally really like this deck as in the past week I have been getting into combo and I really like both this deck and your Long list, keep up the superb work Steve!

[BreathWeapon]

Strange, I was thinking about Diminishing Returns after we had hit a brick wall in the Long thread. I only MD them to help support FoW, but they were always decent to me. I've had some limited budget success with a 4 Diminishing Returns and 4 Death Wish Combo deck, but I built it as sort of a half assed joke ... ironic. How well does the mana generation run?

[Smmenen]

In the very first post of that thread, I alluded to this at the very end, but I think this deck is almost fully tuned now.

Future Sight doesn't fit becuase it's not worth it to cut a restricted card or restricted caliber card for a never-will-be restricted card.  Going nuts with it is also premised on having fastbond in play first.  

Remaining questions:

* Led v. Chrome Mox.  Let me know how your testing goes.

* SB: Ratio of answers to stax/rootmaze hate.

*Whether Crop Rotation deserves a space.

Steve

[Sytupal]

You say it yourself about the Swarms being a good card to try and fit in.  I would think they are better in most ways than FoW in this situation... so you mulligan down until you get a first turn xantid, and go off turn 2 or 3 instead.... it puts your opponent on that definite clock.    

I have denied this in my dragon build simply because it is built much differently.  Force plays a different role than xantid in dragon.   With all your accelerants wouldn't you say that you could definitely get more synergy out of the deck by replacing the FoW's with the  swarms?

[Pago]

Removing the first 10 cards seems a little risky, as you stand the chance of either removing your Tendrils and the Burning Wish (although removing both with one is unlikely). The returns just seems a little risky, if you ask me. Also, wasnt the chief cause of Long.dec to make lots of use of the synergy btw diamond / will? It looks like Diamond is a sort of random inclusion, but thats from a glance

[urza_insane]

I'm sorry, but I don't think this deck is THAT great. Sure is has promise, but what does this deck do vs stifle with FOW backup? Stifle is becoming more widespread even after the death of Long. And even though you say the removal of the top 10 isn't dangerous it is still risky. I would rather go with food chain gabbo or turbo-elves.

[Smmenen]

Stifle?  It's a draw 7 deck man.  If your opponent is lucky enough to have stifle's after multiple draw 7s, then you can just go at it again with another Draw7.  

You're entitled to your opinion - but it does have the most broken cards of any deck in type one - with a full 27 restricted cards.

Steve

[DEA]

but steve is right about the draw-7s
just go at it again
the only thing that sucks about diminishing returns is you don't get to untap lands like time spiral :lol:

[Dr. Sylvan]

This deck is so tight I can't think of anything to cut. Have the ESGs been problematic due to being removed?

---------------------------------------------------
***SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE***

what does this deck do vs stifle with FOW backup?

TMD ORACLE: "Now I'll sideboard Caltrops to hose Keeper and Sligh."

I would rather go with food chain gabbo or turbo-elves.

TMD ORACLE: "I'm not sure what I was thinking storing a muffin in my pocket, but it's a decision I'm now regretting."

[Pago]

*Whether Crop Rotation deserves a space.

Although it is useful for throwing out academy and generating lots of blue mana to power your spells, you have several factors working against it.

a) (The most important): With the death of LED (almost), mana acceleration has shifted more into the direction of Rituals / ESG's (lets not consider SoLoMoxen in this case). Therefore, fetching Tolarian would not be the wisest as although it gives you some nifty blue mana, this deck is build with ESG / Ritual as mana boosters instead
b) Depending on the turn you rotate in a Tolarian, it will probably get wasted ASAP

A card I would consider is Fastbond, mainly because it keeps your mana steam going by allowing you to drop lands (although you may not have many!) that you get off draw 7's, and further add to the amoutn of spells you can play in any given turn

---------------------------------------------------
***SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE***
Quote:
what does this deck do vs stifle with FOW backup?

TMD ORACLE: "Now I'll sideboard Caltrops to hose Keeper and Sligh."
Quote:
I would rather go with food chain gabbo or turbo-elves.

TMD ORACLE: "I'm not sure what I was thinking storing a muffin in my pocket, but it's a decision I'm now regretting."

This is some funny stuff Sylvan  :lol: . Ill be sure to check around flame-drawing posts for your oracles. All that sarcasm is great

[Blackest Lotus]

Smmenen, is it possible to run a budget version of thise deck? Replacing Moxes and what not with the other (crappy) Moxes, and Ancestral and Time Walk with other tutors seems to be the obvious answer. If not then, oh well.

I strongly suggest no one say anything about restricting Dark Ritual, you never know who could be reading, and one of those people might begin to clamor for its to be restriction. Thus generating infinite bad publicity faster than you can say DARGON. I lost the best deck I have EVER played (Rector Tendrils) with the last restrictions, and dont want to lose any more.  

[rvs]

how did you lose rector tendrils? Nothing from the most optimal list got the axe.

The topic might be wrong Steve, as you just claimed this deck is a draw7.dec. It's funny how close this is to what TPS looks like.

[Nehptis]

Can you clarify what you said here.  I don't understand your question / statement.

how did you lose rector tendrils? Nothing from the most optimal list got the axe.

I'm very interested in discussing Rector Tendril's builds so I'm curious as to the point you are trying to make.

[Smmenen]

how did you lose rector tendrils? Nothing from the most optimal list got the axe.

The topic might be wrong Steve, as you just claimed this deck is a draw7.dec. It's funny how close this is to what TPS looks like.

 
I pointed out that if anything, the ancestor to this deck is Koen's Diminishing Resistence.  

More fundamentally, the deck should be renamed Twister.dec since that's really what the deck does, and it tries to reap the benefits of being able to recur certain broken cards repeatedly.

Steve

[BouncingBeeble]

Has anyone considered running something along the lines of chain of vapor or seal of cleansing (or more disruption in general) to deal with the maindeck hate so many decks are packing these days? A friend and I recently tested this deck against big O and hulk, and while blazingly fast in most cases, if it did not FoW the null rod or root maze cast by stompy, or have the force for tog's, it tended to lose. What I'm saying is that the deck, in my opinion, needs to make room for some more disruption and a way to deal with hate cards. Perhaps cutting the ESGs (which were found less then useful) for 3 duress and a chain of vapor would be appropriate.

On the issue of LED vs Chrome Mox, LED wins. The mox is only truly useful when you have a bargain in play, as the card disadvantage is really bad in the deck (even with all the draw-7s). The LED has the ability to put a spell on the stack and then discard the rest of your hand (which will hopefully be very small and useless by this point) and gains you 3x the mana of ANY COLOUR, which is very useful (existence of spheres).

I will test some more and tell you what stats I get.

[Blackest Lotus]

how did you lose rector tendrils? Nothing from the most optimal list got the axe.

I ran somewhat of an unorthodox variant, with Burning Wish and Lions Eye Diamond. It never occurred to me to try and adjust it to the new restrictions. Derf.

Anyways, the decklist looks tight, nothing appears it could be switched out easily for disruption. And if I was running power I would go with LED instead of the Mox, hands down. The Mox has screwed me many a time, LED has been my best friend.

[Smmenen]

*Whether Crop Rotation deserves a space.

A card I would consider is Fastbond, mainly because it keeps your mana steam going by allowing you to drop lands (although you may not have many!) that you get off draw 7's, and further add to the amoutn of spells you can play in any given turn
t

If you look at the list, Fastbond is in it.

Steve

[Smmenen]

This deck is savage.  I played it in the most recent Columbus Tournament and it was as robust as I had hoped!

Steve

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I really like the list Steve...the deck is very fun to play, and seems more forgiving than DeathLong. I still don't know if it's a better deck than deathLong, though. In my testing, the deck seems a turn slower than Long (maybe it's cause I'm a bad combo player). Plus, maybe the deck hates me, but it seems to just fizzle at times. I'm much more comfortable resolving a YawgWill and just going broken than to keep hitting draw 7s. However, I LOVE the fact that you are running 4 swarms and 4 Forces.

Just a question...have you thought about hurkyl's recalls main? They are soooooooooo good. they net you anywhere from 2-5 mana and just up your storm count like it's nobody's business. It also deals nicely with opposing chalices. I noticed you were running 3 in your board...how often do you bring them in?

[Smmenen]

In some ways, Chain of Vapor is actually more insane.  You can sac lands to bounce the Moxen and then replay the land with Yawg will and fastbond.  But chain only costs 1 and hits anything, which is cool.

Steve