Proxy Discussion

[trotch]

The problem with a 5 or 10 proxy rule is that people will simply choose to play the deck that can be run to its full potential with only 5-10 really expensive cards.  Some people say that the solution to this problem is to allow full proxies, but I tend to disagree.  The whole reason I play at tournaments (I'm sure this is true for others, too), besides having fun, is the chance to win some power.  If full proxies are allowed, what is my motivation for even playing?  It is a tricky situation and I don't have to solution, but I would just as happy with no proxies allowed.

And no, I don't say this because I want to smash budget people with my fully-powered Keeper.  I in fact don't own any power (yet!), but I hope to have the chance to win some.

[CmdrSam]

I think the people who are strongly against proxies are overlooking a very important fact:

There is a finite and very limited number of moxes, lotuses, etc. in existence.

If you disallow proxies, not only have you ensured an upper limit on the number of people who can play competitive T1, but this upper limit will decrease over time as these cards are slowly destroyed, thrown out, and lost in attics.

From my point of view, disallowing proxies not only prevents the vast majority of the population from playing T1 right now, but it also guarantees the eventual death of the format.

--Sam L-L

[Frost]

For the longest time I have been opposed to the idea of running proxy tournaments, especially unlimited tournaments.  Lately I have been warming to the idea.  

In any given area of the world, there are only so many of the older cards in floating around in competitive players or stores hands.  I say competitive because I know many people who own a great number of power cards yet do not play competitive Type 1 and are collecters or casual players and do not wish to trade their power.

This puts a limit on the number of players in a given area who can play DCI sanctioned tournaments.  In Minneapolis we have been averaging about 30 players per DCI sanctioned power tournaments.  As the price of power increases, it becomes harder for stores to justify running no proxy tournaments as it will limit the number of people who can play.  We cannot just keep raising the entry fee as that will lower the number of people who will play.  Eventually we will need to allow proxies.  I can only assume that this is a phenomenon that will eventually occur elsewhere.

As for the number of proxies allowed, well, I think anything pre-Legends is a good starting point.  Although, as time goes by it may need to be expanded upon.

[Smmenen]

Competitive Type One is much more fun than Shitty Type One.

Shitty type one makes me feel guilty and want to wash my mouth out wish Soap.  Competitive Type One is the best sport and makes gives me a runner's high.  If you want competitive type one, you have to do proxies.  There is no "if's," "and's," or "but's" about it.

Steve

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

@CmmdrSam  You probably would have been right about cards being slowly lost and destroyed probably in the earlier stages of the game.  When people quit when magic was still a new card game, people didn't really care about the cards, sure stuff was lost and cards were damaged.

Today, those situations probably happen very rarely.  Someone who plays type one knows what moxes are worth, mana drains are worth, etc.  I don't think any individual who is stable in the head would allow his cards to get slowly lost or destroyed.  If i put my cards in a box in an attic, 5,10,20 years from now I would still know they are worth something.  Or if i was going to stop playing I would surely get rid of my cards for money.  Unlike then people now know the worth of magic cards.  Yes cards still get destroyed and the pool decreases in size, but at the rate that good cards like power, drains, etc bite the dust will be sooo freaking long we are looking at decades.

[cssamerican]

Carl & Smmenen are right. It is no fun smashing peoples face in because they can't afford or are unwilling to spend the amount of money to acquire power. At the same time WotC needs to get their money or the game will die no matter how popular it is; therefore, the best general proxy rule I can think of that will change with the times and keep WotC in business is allowing anything that is not in an Extended legal set be proxied. This keeps all expensive or potentially expensive cards in the proxy realm. And it keeps the game's creator in business. The end result is a much larger Type 1 seen powered by unsanctioned tournaments that anybody can afford to play in, while at the same time not hurting the future of the game.
Power is still a collectable and it will allow you to compete on a competitive level in WotC sponsored DCI sanctioned events.

Method you make a good point, but say there are 1000 sets of power in the playing pool (I am not going to count power in someone's attic that could be there for the next 20 years) as the amount of players increase the less available power becomes, and eventually you will go to a tournament and one of two things will happen.
If you got power you will kill everyone, because no one else will have. That's boring!
If you don't have power then you will lose to the one person at the tournament that does. That's boring too!
And I know the argument that power doesn't win. However, I must say and I think other will agree, over time power not only goes up in price, it goes up in power. What I mean is the WotC stays in buisness the more good spells are created in the greater than 1cc range; therefore, the person with power keeps gaining advantages on the person without power. And once that advantage is great enough no amount of skill can ever make up for it.

[Ivantheterrible]

Nameless becuase I you are a paragine I will assume that though I am a more civil and polite peson then you apperae to bee that  you are a better player then me.

With saying that let me give you and some other people a scanario. I have $2000 to buy a mint p9 graded Beta Lotus and you dont.
I buy it go to a tournament play and play you.

I have a lotus and you dont but you are a better player who deservesto win.

The guy with more skill always deserves to beat the guy with more money no matter what because thats what a game is originally about. \

I am a guy who has a job and could afford power but I would much rather be able to proxy power and invest in other things that I enjoy.

If you think that I am willingto invest in power because I will enjoy the one little piece of white boarderd cardboard a paid $300 for then you are wrong I was willing to invest that money because I enjoy the game as a whole and want to be able to compeat and play witha better chance of winning and overall have more fun because I dont just atuolosse all day cause I am playing mon's goblin raiders against good stuff all day long.

Do you need good cards to compeate and not loose to everbody all toruny? Yes.
Do you have to say to everbody I have a bigger cock then you because I can by  pimp black boarderd lotuses and am better then you for it? No.

What is better in the end everybody being a better player and having more fun because every round is a potential challange.

I want to go to a tournament and sit down acrose from the 10 year old kid and not just know I will beat him cause I have drains and he has carp stuff. I want him to be able to play a good solid competitive deck that he likes so that me and him can have an enjoyable competitive game, that improves on both of our skills.

As an ending thought leave thinking this do you care more about your wallet or more about your skill improving and having more fun because you are actually challanged every game.
If you answered: Wallet

YOU SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING VINTAGE!

[CmdrSam]

Yes cards still get destroyed and the pool decreases in size, but at the rate that good cards like power, drains, etc bite the dust will be sooo freaking long we are looking at decades.

You make a good point that the rate of decrease is slow, but it is still there. If you seriously want to make sure that T1 is a format that can live on indefinitely, this is a point that must be addressed. This is even more important if you wish the format to grow indefinitely, as currently there is a strong upper bound on the number of people who can play competitive T1.

If you are OK with the field of competitors never growing much larger than it currently is, and in the long run slowly dwindling to nothing, then proxies are unnecessary. If you wish T1 to continue to grow indefinitely, proxies are a requirement.

This is why other formats, such as T2 can continue to grow: the number of T2 cards in existence can continue to grow with the number of T2 players. WotC can just print more of the Earth, Wind, Fire block if more and more people decide to start playing T2 between now and then.

The primary problem with proxies as I see it is depriving WotC of their income stream. Naturally, we wish WotC to continue to make money so that they can continue to make new sets!

I think allowing all proxies of cards pre-Extended would solve both these problems. Pre-Extended cards are usable in no other formats and are well out of print, so WotC is not relying on them in any way for their revenue. Extended-legal cards are recent enough that WotC has printed an amount comparable to the modern demand.

The pre-Extended proxy rule would keep T1 alive and growing forever as well as allowing WotC to make money and continue making new cards forever. It's a win-win solution.

--Sam L-L

[Jacob Orlove]

In 2005, Mercadian Masques will be banned in extended. Are people having that much trouble finding misidrections and AKs?

Pre-legends is enough.

[Mana Fixxer]

CE cards are still expensive, seems like a waste of money for people who might like to play in real t1s like vintage worlds2k4. You are better off buying 1 real power than 4 fake power.

Also, even in sleeves - the corners can lead to some shuffling magic if you aren't careful.

What does everyone think about allowing Collector's Edition?  It's become very scarce in it's own right, and would be just as playable as Alphas (would require sleeves).  Plus, they're kind of "official proxies" produced by Wizards themselves.

I think WOTC should allow them in Type 1 Tournaments.  Yes, there could be problems with "shuffling magic" but there are ways to prevent this, such as the random deck checks, or maybe something a little more severe (perhaps seen by some as insane) a DCI standard card cutter, making the CE card corners rounded.

Anyway, I think making CE legal in T1 would be a good way to make it more accessible, while not completely ignoring the fact that this is a collectible card game.

CNB

[Tha Gunslinga]

I know of at least 2 people who have lost power cards.  Lost, as in misplaced and can't find them.  One lost a Time Walk, the other, a Black Lotus.  The amount of real P9 in existance is shrinking.

I also know quite a few people who are actively looking for power.  They're willing to pay pretty much full price for it, but aren't having much luck.

My point?  Power is insanely hard to find.  Proxies level the field.  I think 10 proxies is fair.  5 means you can't even come close to building Keeper, and have trouble with combo.  Aggro only needs a few pieces, but it's fine without power anyway.

[Smash]

I know of at least 2 people who have lost power cards.  Lost, as in misplaced and can't find them.  One lost a Time Walk, the other, a Black Lotus.  The amount of real P9 in existance is shrinking.

I also know quite a few people who are actively looking for power.  They're willing to pay pretty much full price for it, but aren't having much luck.

My point?  Power is insanely hard to find.  Proxies level the field.  I think 10 proxies is fair.  5 means you can't even come close to building Keeper, and have trouble with combo.  Aggro only needs a few pieces, but it's fine without power anyway.

Should everyone build keeper? Is it a god given right of every magic player to build keeper?

The upper t1 decks are for people who are dedicated to the game and have earned it, not every newb with a sharpie.

[jazzykat]

Well someone probably said it but I think the most important question about proxies is accessability:

Do you want  to go to a tourney and wait until you smash 50-70% of the field before you play vs. a deck that is on par with yours, or would you rather allow everyone the same choices, with only skill, luck and sideboarding kung fu to decide a match.

I hate running little kids over. Winning is nice but it doesn't mean anything, until you beat a good player with a good deck.  Lets at least allow all players a chance to have a good deck, and we will see who the good players truly are.

[Magi]

So let's see the suggestions so far:

- Up to 10 proxies
- Anything pre-Legends proxy
- Anything over $50-$60 proxy


I know! Let's combine all 3

Anything pre-legends over $50-$60 can be proxied, with a maximum number of 10 per deck.

Of course, things like 10 proxies, prelegends and the $50-$60 limit are variables and can be changed accordingly

ie. Anything pre-nemesis over $5 can be proxied, with a maximum of 32 per deck. (not a good example, but just illustrating a point)

That's fair. People should not have to proxy stuff like duals, forces etc. things like that are staple, and should be looked at as a basic cost of playing the game.

But with the recent price hike in the past year, it's becoming ridiculous just getting power. I once thought of getting power, then I realized that I had other stuff to commit my money to. In fact, I saved up around $600 this winter, and had the choice of getting power or getting some snowboard stuff. I chose the snowboard stuff (tough choice really) but because of that does that mean I can't play vintage? When me and KandyKod found a local store that hosted T1 tournaments, we discovered it was scrub. We got first and second, got some credit, and discovered to our delight that they hosted this thing every week. So what, $40 a week in free stuffs (they had a bunch of old vids and games ) is good no? Well you know what, after 4 weeks of earning enough credit to get what we wanted from that store, we stopped going. Why? It's no fun beating on Sligh and Stompy and T2 decks with Sol Rings in them.

There is a metagame in Vancouver, but it is really scrubb. Something like proxy would jumpstart it quite nicely to hopefully attain a little bit of what the level is like on the east coast and Europe.

Also, note how it's the people who have power who are vehemently against proxies, while you have people with and without power advocating the use of them. FUNNY EH?!?!?! OMG YOU HAVE A BLACK LOTUSE YOUR PENIS IS BIGGER (not)

[DEA]

that's where you're quite wrong
my penis is naturally bigger, lotus or not :lol:

[Cuandoman]

Yea, seriously, I have a donkey dick.

Should everyone build keeper? Is it a god given right of every magic player to build keeper?

I can feel your pain dude. I've been playing since 1995, but didn't complete my power until a month ago. I busted my ass to get the stuff. To hell with unlimited proxies. As for the people who proxy cards and then win the power only to turn around and sell it and proxy it again next time... i hope they get the Peter North treatment.

[zero]

Welcome to the next great thing, Magic socialism. I find it ironic that in Europe (the continent of sit on your ass and hope everything gets handed to you by your welfare state), they are running large tourneys unproxied while here the push is to cater to the lowest common denominator. If some frogs (sorry toad) who are afraid to work 35 hours a week can make an effort to acquire what they need, so can you. Sure, vintage is more popular than ever, and the exchange rate is in Europe's favor, but it's doable. Sell your eternal dragons and broodstars, stop drafting crap cards (that only benefits hasbro), and get to work. But no, you'd like to have your cake and eat it, too.
Being able to proxy 17% of your deck is flat out idiotic. The tournament organizers should instead photocopy everything you need, and everyone can cut and paste whatever they need. Maybe some crayons, so you can color them in if you're done registering your deck. My beta lotus acquires a little wear even through sleeves, so I'm all for that idea (sarcasm, it's my raison d^etre). Hey, here's an idea you Magic commies are sure to hate (just pulled this out of my ass) :
1. Establish a base price for the tournament.
2. Anyone who is not using proxies, gets in at 1/2 price.
3. Anyone using proxies has to pay the base price, plus $1 more per proxy that they're using.
4. Females don't pay anything, i shouldn't have to explain why.
But you'll never agree to it, because the pricing structure is "unfair."
Yes, ize, someone is more entitled to a black lotus than you are, it's called a free market. It sets the price, by virtue of being the most logical way to set prices. Any particular price rquires that it be good enough for the buyer and seller to agree upon, that's the whole point of the process. To even go to college, I had to borrow 25 grand in student loans; there are plenty of people who didn't, and whose parents paid for everything. Should I whine like a little bitch over the fact that I wasn't born to rich parents, then? Yeah, it cost me more to get an education, but it was still accessible to me. Get the analogy?
To be honest, I feel that 5 proxies (a.k.a. student loans), is a reasonable enough compromise, if only because it may get more people to try the format out. If they like it, it also allows them to expand the amount of decks that they can play as they are slowly but surely acquiring what they need. It's not like I'm so opposed to proxies that I can't stand them, it's just this attitude of entitlement (not just magic, but our country in general) that really angers me.

@'slinga : You can see the free market at work; you've been bidding up the price on an illusionary mask and time vault on MOTL.  You know what I'm talking about. It's not like you have to bid on it .
@cuando : Even worse, the Ron Jeremy treatment. I wanna see em get  the hedge-hog!

[Zharradan]

Being able to proxy 17% of your deck is flat out idiotic.

I'd like to see some justification for that statement. Is being able to proxy 16.5% also idiotic? Is 14% only mildy stupid?

Could you try working through your obvious anger issues, and say something coherent? The obvious truth is that by allowing proxies, more people will play. I don't think anyone has said that absolutely every tournament ever must allow proxies - just that the existance of proxy tournaments is a good thing. If you don't like the idea of losing to a better player than you that hasn't spent the money on power yet, don't play in them. It's pretty simple.

[Kerz]

Could you try working through your obvious anger issues, and say something coherent?

Yeah, try to do that.

The obvious truth is that by allowing proxies, more people will play.

Again, yes. Allowing more proxies means that the tournament is gauged more on playskill than poketbook, which is pretty good thing. I think that Magic should have some budget restraints, but not enough to warp the metagame. 10 proxies fixes this 100%, and 5 proxies fixes this to some extent too.

As the number of proxies approches infinity, the competency of the metagame and decks  at a tournament also approach infinity.

[Toad]

As the number of proxies approches infinity, the competency of the metagame and decks  at a tournament also approach infinity.

I'm not sure about that. The overall level of the decks played will be higher than in a no-proxy or 5-proxy only tournament, but unlimited proxies don't mean good players that have playtested their decks. The more the proxies, the more the netdecking. And netdecking is really bad for the overall level of the tournament because you'd for sure get people proxying the deck the day before without understanding the fundamental concepts of what they are going to play. If you limit the number of proxies in a deck, people will play with decks they own and upgraded with the proxies, which means even if the deck is weaker than Tier1 decks, their knowledge of the deck will make them play it better. The deck is not everything in Magic. It's an important part, but a weak player with a good deck will have worse results than a strong player with a lesser deck.

[Ivantheterrible]

Welcome to the next great thing, Magic socialism.

Viva la socialism.

Hey, here's an idea you Magic commies are sure to hate

Oh you are referring to players who arn't compleate dicks (zero hey great name for you) and understand that they need to get past their own petty differenes and relize how much better an enviornment there would be out there if evey one had all the same opportunoities.

Yes, ize, someone is more entitled to a black lotus than you are, it's called a free market.

You should go back in read my current post on this thread the one that ends with saying you should get your fucking ass away from this game because many off us find someone ussless if they care more about the market then the growth and fun of the game.

My beta lotus

Ah Zero you have a Beta Lotus huh that must be compensating for your lack of

a donkey dick

.

[wonkey_donkey]

I think we may be straying somewhat from the point over all this with the innumerable donkey dick references...

Personally, I should have little influence on the issue, as there are zero type 1 players around me. For what it's worth, I think that unlimited proxies is unfair on those who collected the cards, but that no proxies is unfair on those who are new to the game (high fixed costs for economists amongst you). It's a fine line. What about restricted cards can be proxied? That would leave workshops, bazaars, drains, FoW, duals and fetches as the "big" money cards (although the 'bigness' gets smaller, going through the list). Might be a viable alternative, although it may be placing too much burden on the DCI to restrict the right things.

Tom

[Nameless]

Well, it seems that a few of you got what I was saying, and some even agreed.  Sadly my own fellow Paragons are making themselves into uneducated twits in this very thread, and I find that a sad day indeed...

The bottom line is that there is no excuse for not having power.  Either you don't really want it that bad, since it's easier to make excuses for poor play this way, or you're just too damn lazy to save up the money.

People willing to pay full price and can't find it?  You're so full of shit I can smell it from here.  Tell them to email me and I'll send them a dozen people selling power at full price.  What a joke...  But, as I said, there are many people, on this very website, who got thier power not by having a tons of cash, but by trading for all of it.

So let me ask you this then, if even one person can complete an entire set of power through no means other then trading, then what the hell does this say about the rest of you who are too lazy to do anything to earn thiers and want to make 10, 20, or 30 proxies for a damn deck?

Oh, wait you only said 10, didn't you?  But, you know we may as well make that 20, because not everybody has the dual lands, right?  How about 30, because some of those older cards are just so hard to find?  I mean we can't possibly have a control deck without dual lands and Mana Drains, can we?

You know what?  Fuck it, why not play with all proxies.  Hell, I'm all for that come to think of it.  Anybody wanna buy my power?  I mean I won't need it since we are just going to end up playing with all proxy decks anyway.

[DEA]

my biggest gripe will be losing to complete idiots who can't play at 1/2 the level i can but wiped my ass with a netdeck that was proxied to hell and the only way they won was by beating me over the head with the accidental 1337ness of the p9

[jazzykat]

my biggest gripe will be losing to complete idiots who can't play at 1/2 the level i can but wiped my ass with a netdeck that was proxied to hell and the only way they won was by beating me over the head with the accidental 1337ness of the p9

I don't want to start a flame war, but if you loose to random scrubs (with a few broken openings aside) with good decks then you may have to reconsider your deck choice for the metagame at the very least.

Personally I would laugh at a bad player bringing TPS, Deathlong, Tog, Keeper to a tournament. Besides getting lucky every now and then, you will crush them if you really are twice as good because their decision making process will not allow them to optimize plays.

Furthermore, if you have a problem with people just randomly winning, you should play T2, the cards are so weak that the brokenness factor is dimished and luck plays a smaller part in victory.

If you really don't like random victorys then you can play chess. If you lose it is your fault.

[kakeboy07]

Do you think a person has more right to a Lotus than another person, just because he has more money?

Erm...  Lemme' think here...  Yes.

OK, nothing else is directed specifically at you Ize.  

There are plenty of people in my area that have a Lotus or other peices of 'power', and they don't make jack shit for wages.

This goes out to anybody who was lazy enough to agree with some lame ass 10 proxy rule, too...  Save your damn money.  If you want something, save for it.  People cry about how it's so expensive to get into Vintage, then they turn around and blow a few hundred bucks over the course of a month or so playing in drafts and picking up cards for Standard.

What the fuck is up with that?

Here is a fact you need to settle into and realize:  Vintage is IN FACT the cheapest format to not only stay current in but, in the long run, to get into.  The average Magic player will spend more money playing in drafts and keeping up with Standard over a year then it would take to buy all the power you needed.

That last aspect isn't even touching on the fact that you don't need every damn peice of power to begin with!  Who the hell actually plays all of the power?  Maybe, what, Long.dec?  Oh, that deck is dead?  You don't need all of them for fucks sake.

So be smart.  Focus on the deck you need them for and set your sights in saving money.

So then we are back to where I started...  YES peole with more money should be the ones with the Lotus.  They have more money because they saved it.  If guys I know can work that are working in crap jobs not making hardly anything, and living on thier own, can afford to save up and get a peice they want from time to time, then what the hell is the excuse for the rest of you?

I'll tell you what it is, in most cases...  It's easier to piss and moan and cry about it, and then turn around and draft, so you get enjoyment NOW NOW NOW rather then just saving up that money and buying the Ancestral you wanted in the first place.  And...  If having that Ancestral DOESN'T give you at least as much pleasure and fun as all those missed drafts would have, then I suggest you pick a new format because Vintage isn't for you.

Vintage is becomming more popular, but not in any way shape or form from Wizards.  Shit, they have completely stopped having Vintage at the invitationals now.  Isn't that a big clue?  There are far more peices of power still floating around peoples hands then there are serious Vintage players, you just have to look for them.

And as long as I'm talking about accesibility...  I have a good friend named Josh that I played Magic with for quite a long time.  He managed to collect every peice of power he needed/wanted with the sole exception of a Timetwister.  How did he do this amazing task?  He drafted a lot, and saved up rares and did something truly amazing...  He traded at prereleases, GPTs, PTQs, and the like.  Yea, he TRADED!  God forbid!  He would make several trades, and at these events, when he ran across a peice of the puzzle he needed, he'd just trade for it using his more valuable cards that were hot in Standard.  I watched him trade off half a dozen Call of the Herds for a Mox Emerald once.  Yes, a Mox Emerald.  And it was a good deal for both of them!  He got what he wanted, and the other person was easily able to trade them back off, within minutes, for the cards he was looking for.

In other words, if you have some descent cards and are willing to work at it, you don't need tons of cash, you CAN get what you want!

This leads me to my final point...  If you don't have the cash to buy the power, and you don't want to spend countless hours trading to get them, then what the fuck are you doing crying about why you don't have them?  A white light isn't going to shine down from heaven and grant you a Mox.  Get off your collective asses and earn it, and if you don't want to then quit pissing and moaning because you don't have one to play with.

Note: i love you you are my hero

[DEA]

accidental 1337ness of the p9

(with a few broken openings aside)

you do get the significance of the bold and italics sections taken in the same context?

[Smmenen]

I cannot beleive the sheer stupidity in this thread.

Its not that the arguments are stupid.  Its that the arguments are completely misplaced.

The reason for proxies is NOT to create a fiscal parity.  I don't give two tugs of a dead dogs cock about whether somebody can play with a fully powered deck or not.  Its not, for me, about whether people have money or not or can afford it or not.   This is NOT socialism.

The purpose is to create COMPETITIVE parity.  I want to play in a competitive enviroment.  Competitive environments with competitive decks are more fun.  Go look at the columbus top 8.  That was a fun environment.  I hate scrubby environments and think they are unfun.

Magic is a game and I will run unlmited proxy tournaments and NONE OF YOU CAN STOP ME.   And what's more everyone will enjoy them and it will a) increase Type One's popularity and b) make people want to actually get power for Gencon, etc.

If some people here are too dense to see the basic relationships between enjoying the competitive levels of the format and a desire to acquire the cards to compete, I can't help it.  For some reason people think that allowing proxy tournaments will take away the incentive to acquire power.  This is neither logically nor factually true.

Nameless simply does not understand that it isn't people without power who want proxy tournaments.  ITS ME.  I have every good card in Type One, 4 Bazaars, 4 Workshops, 4 Masks, 4 Drains, all the power - 3 sapphires and two walks in fact.  Do I need power?  Hell no.  Do I want proxy tournaments.  HELL YES.  

Steve

[Tha Gunslinga]

I cannot beleive the sheer stupidity in this thread.

The purpose is to create COMPETITIVE parity.  I want to play in a competitive enviroment.  Competitive environments with competitive decks are more fun.  Go look at the columbus top 8.  That was a fun environment.  I hate scrubby environments and think they are unfun.


If some people here are too dense to see the basic relationships between enjoying the competitive levels of the format and a desire to acquire the cards to compete, I can't help it.  For some reason people think that allowing proxy tournaments will take away the incentive to acquire power.  This is neither logically nor factually true.

Nameless simply does not understand that it isn't people without power who want proxy tournaments.  ITS ME.  I have every good card in Type One, 4 Bazaars, 4 Workshops, 4 Masks, 4 Drains, all the power - 3 sapphires and two walks in fact.  Do I need power?  Hell no.  Do I want proxy tournaments.  HELL YES.  

Steve

Thank you.  This is the point I was somehow trying to make, but you said it damn well.  I'd rather play on a level playing field than smash modified Type 2 decks because I have power and they don't.


As for the "if people can proxy, they'll all netdeck" idea, this is total bullshit.  I play Apprentice, where everyone has power, and I rarely face netdecks.  More often I see Enchantress, Chalice Black, weird LandStill builds, Yawgmoth's Oath, etc.  Access to all the cards means you can play whatever the hell you want, not that you're going to netdeck automatically.

[Smmenen]

I don't see what the problem with netdecking is.  I write articles so people can netdeck.

Steve