[Deck] Charbelcher Combo 2004

[Psionic]

The Forces aren't really to protect your Belcher, as that should not be a big concern.  You can always put the Belch ability on the stack when artifact destruction is thrown at it, and I do think MD Welders are awesome for its recursion given the large amount of artifacts in this deck. (although sadly I can fit just a singleton in the build as of now).

The Forces are there to protect against all the hate--namely Trinisphere, Null Rod, CotV, and Damping Matrix that drops before you get your 2 - 3 turns to win.  You do not have to "hold" back blue cards, because you will still play beatdown and try to force Belcher on the table with open mana as soon as possible.  However, if your opponent is going first, stopping a hate card will go a long way into turning a definite loss into a good chance at winning.

Psionic

[frimble]

I do hold the belief that in a truely powered tournament (with lots of workshops especially), Belcher is a Top8/Top 4 deck - not a Top 1. It saddens me at this point, with current build, I don't see a way to alter the deck to be able to consistantly be able to use Force of Will.  

We need to have AT LEAST the same chance of having a FoW and a Blue card in hand in the first 7 cards as the workshop deck has at casting a first turn 3sphere.  I think I remember 25% was what Lucentspirit came up with on the 3sphere.  How many blue cards do we need to have in it, so that we have a goal to get to?

[Lucentspirit]

A deck would need to have 18 blue cards (4 of them Fow) to have the same chance of casting a FoW as a trinistax player has of casting a first turn 3sphere.

[frimble]

On the Force of Will thoughts...

Does adding blue cards to get a total of 18 still sound like a good idea for the deck?  To me it seems like alot.

Anybody else find a way to do it and get it to work?

[LoA]

@Lucentspirit: Does that include the non-Workshop ways that a deck can cast a first-turn Trinisphere?  If anyone has the number-crunching skills (and I know a few around here do) I'd be curious to see a comparison of chances of a first turn Trinisphere vs. first turn Sphere of Resistance assuming mana burn isn't a factor and the manabases are the same.

[Psionic]

I was testing a version with the blue card count up to 15.  I now strongly think another version of the deck should be redesigned, from the ground up, to have a blue base and run 18 - 20 blue cards.  This will most likely slow the deck down by a turn, which is suboptimal considering one of the strengths of Belcher-combo is its unmatched speed.  

However, this route for Belcher-combo should be started so we can begin tuning the fastest deck in Type 1 to pack MD protection via FoW.

Preferably, we are looking for cards with CC = 1, unless they are putting 3 or more cards in your hand ala Timetwister.

So far, for blue:

Most Likely Candidates
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk *arguments have been made against this
1 Timetwister
1 Hurkyl's Recall/Chain of Vapor

Potential Candidates
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mind's Desire

Mind's Desire seems rather impossible to cast at 4UU, although its presence and usefulness in combo cannot be denied.

Thoughts?!

Psionic

[ScaldMonger]

I find that if you go the FOW route, you're going to want to find one in your opening hand, making 4 a good number to play. Assuming you do infact go with 4, which I do, running

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
1 Mystical
1 Ancestral
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkly's Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Tinker

is just enough. I rarely find getting enough blue sources trouble. The real trouble comes in when the Land Grant gets countered, but that's going to be trouble no matter how many blue cards you play.
Usually I won't play more than 2-3 of the blue cards on that list in a given game. FOW I don't really count, because it is "free", and I'm just counting the cards which require a colored mana investment. 4 BS usually means I'll play 1 early, Land Grant to shuffle, then end up playing 1 more if I find trouble down the road. Then by the time I'm done there, the game is usually pretty close to over. Twister, Windfall occasionally join in, but not more than once a game from what I've tested. Surprisingly, I picked up the deck and played with it thinking it was going to play like Draw7.dec, but much more quickly realized it was more like playing Docoolmanatrickstillyouhit7.d ec  Much more of the time you will just hit the 7 mana too fast, and not even need to play the rest of those blue cards. This is not a reason to take them out, it just stands that I haven't come across THAT much hate that every game I need to clear 2 Null Rods, a 3sphere, and a double Sphere of Resistance. The Recall and Chain do their parts, and if they are not needed, just get shuffled or pitched. This weekend I'll get a few tournies more to try it out, but from what I have already seen, the deck is a beast, wins consistantly with FOW backup turn 2, and recovers beautifully from initial disruption (Duress, FOW, Rod). This IS one of the best combo decks I've played over the last few years, and I'm sure there is still much to be done to further its development.

::EDIT::
My post was written before I saw Psionic's, but my view remains the same. Time Walk is OK but not what you really want to see. It gets the job done, but more of the time it just cycles, and does waste that 1 blue mana source that you've worked so hard to get. Mind's Desire is an interesting card to try, but in reality, most of the time you use it you're going to turn up mana sources, rather than wins. This may seem ridiculous, but from what I've tested with tendrils, it's pretty difficult without Yawg Will to get a storm count over 4. Like I already posted this deck isn't a Twister.dec or Draw7.dec   I keep Tendrils MD because it can be used to win, though I haven't had to yet. The Desire to me is unstable, and will sit in your hand till it gets pitched.

[MaxxMatt]

I tested various amounts of blu cards in this deck to find a way to play 4 FoW.

The results were so unstable and unpredictable that I don-t need more test to underline that I was wrong.

FoW haven't place in Belcher.

The only solution that give me a lot of winning agaisnt Workshop.dec was Adding more lands from the side and Keeping in all the Disenchant effects that I could fit in it

I used:

4 MW
1 Academy
maybe another Land

to support the combo against Workshop and Oxidize, Naturalize and other goodies let me win a lot more than 4 random-almost-unplayble FoW.


I eliminate the Negator and add the 4th Welder for the Contorl matchup. Even post side you have to force them to keep their removals in, diluiting the impact of their side in the game.

[theorigamist]

To allow for Force of Will, has anybody considered the potential of U/x utility spells?  I'm thinking specifically of Lim-Dul's Vault, but what about possibly tossing in a Meddling Mage (also anti-hate, so maybe you could drop to 3 FoW), Recoil, and I don't know what else.  Basically, if you're willing to slow the deck down to accomodate protection, you might as well use silver bullet removal to fill up your blue spots.

[frimble]

@theorgamist: In the first three turns, Green is easy to produce. where Blue and Black are much lesser.   Red is relatively difficult to find.  If a UB spellis to be played it would have to realistically wait 'til 3rd turn, by then it often times will be a little late.  However, I do like where you are going with your thoughts.

I think that Green has plenty of hate/protection available to make this deck work.

MaxxMatt has got the idea of adding extra lands and artifact hate.  3Sphere still hurts but the rest of the Workshop.dec threats are managable through Belcher's speed.


I am getting a bit concerned over Mindslaver decks.  I would be very disappointed having to Belch myself if they can get the slaver activated by turn 2 - very possible.

[theorigamist]

@theorgamist: In the first three turns, Green is easy to produce. where Blue and Black are much lesser. Red is relatively difficult to find. If a UB spellis to be played it would have to realistically wait 'til 3rd turn, by then it often times will be a little late.

This depends on your combination of mana providers.  Maybe I'm thinking from my more extensive experience with the budget version, but Tinder Walls, Land Grants, Chromatic Spheres, Mana Cyclix, and Rituals all lead to blue, black or red mana.  Lim-Dul's vault has particular merit.  It can either set the top of the deck for a Belcher or send a land to the bottom if you've already got a Belcher.  If you were to add more lands to the deck to allow for hate-hate, then Vault would be the first extra tutor I'd use, because it lessens the detriments of having more land, and it tutors.

Meddling Mage would be very tough to work in, I agree.  But since there's so much green, how about stuff like Temporal Spring?  Although slow, it's in the right colors, and it negates their next card draw.  And, as absurd as this sounds, would Pygmy Hippo be worth testing?  It fills a similar role as Xantid Swarms, restricting the only possibly counter to Force of Will (or Daze, in a few decks), and it gives colorless mana to fuel the Belcher.

Just tossing out ideas.  I'll try to think of stuff with a little more merit than the Hippo, though.

[ScaldMonger]

If we are to take a route with 0 FOW, that would also take out the need for 1-2 BS, Mystical tutor (maybe), Hurkyl's Recall, Chain of Vapor.

What do you propose exactly to take the place. Would living wishes be put back in? I guess if I were to replace them, I'd go with a living wish or two, oxidize or two, another goblin welder. Anyone else who already lost the FOW's have any ideas?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

As for SBing additional lands, those should probably be Ancient Tombs not Workshops, as those can cast Artifact removal and activate the Belcher.

As for the 0 FoW route, just look at the Dülmen-decklist for what I'd be playing MD.

[Psionic]

I agree that an Ancient Tomb, a City or Traitors, or even another dual > Mishra's Workshop in the side.  3 mana to help cast Belcher then 0 mana to help use it = suboptimal.  I know it seems logical to include a land that can drop Belcher fast, but in my testing I have found that if my mana problems are bad enough that I need to Living Wish for land, the last thing I want is a conditional land like Workshop.  Instead, you want a multipurpose land that can also cast Belcher, other spells, and be used to activate Belcher.

Psionic

[Psionic]

I don't mean to double-post, but it has been almost 2 weeks since I posted last, so I hope that means I get a reprieve from the mods.  Who, by the way, are doing a great job

Some of you may recall talking about a different build of Belcher, that instead of trying to force more blue into the build including suboptimals such as Time Walk and Mind's Desire, would take a more proactive approach of redesigning it to take advantage of blue cards that fit well into the Belcher game plan.

I have been testing such a build, and would like to get discussion on it, since I believe this is a direction Belcher needs to go.  I still think the standard "TurboBelcher" (Lucient's build), with no MD protection sans Welders is still a very fast deck capable of taking many games via surprise factor alone.  I think we need to continue to pursue and develop that version, despite its poor record against Workshop prison.  *BUT*, at the same time, we should pursue a "FoW-Belcher" that can at least (on paper) stop game enders such as Turn 1 Trinisphere.

Enough talk, here's the list.  New choices marked.

Mana
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
7 SoloMoxen
4 Birds of Paradise *(WTF?!)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Land Grant
3 Chromatic Sphere
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
1 Channel

Draw/Tutor
4 Brainstorm*
3 Thirst for Knowledge*
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Windfall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Kill
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Protection/Recursion
4 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor*
2 Goblin Welder
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Now, you're probably wondering about some of the card choices, so I'll explain.  First off, more mana sources are necessary with the added blue (esp. TFKs), and Mana Cylix and Barbed Sextant were poor contendors because there was no net mana gain.  BoPs slow down the deck a little, but fix several problems in the mana base that can't be fixed with Mana Cylix or Barbed Sextant.  They allow for easier casting of the increased blue count, while stabilizing the mana base and offering usable mana even after Null Rod and Wasteland wreak havoc on the already fragile mana base.  They also allow you to ramp up your mana to work around a resolved Trinisphere.  Do not get me wrong, BoPs are not perfect, and I'm open for suggestions.  However, they have been working out okay.

4 Brainstorm - This card is awesome in this deck as there is a TON of explosiveness just waiting for you in your top 3 cards of your library, all for one blue mana at instant speed.

3 Thirst for Knowledge - This card is an amazing card drawer, also showing you a ton of explosiveness.  There is a very high artifact count in this deck so there is always something to toss, netting you 2 cards for 3 mana.  3 mana is 1 more than I'd like for this slot, but this deck is not designed for the slow and clunky AK engine.  Also note the obvious synergy with Welder  for sneaking Belcher in under a counter wall.

1 Chain of Vapor - Never used once in testing, but without Living Wish, I am hesitant to cut this for anything else.  Can bounce Null Rod, 3Sphere, Damping Matrix, etc. before going off.

Unfortunately this deck is approximately a turn slower, killing around turn 3 instead of TurboBelcher's turn 2 kill.  I miss the raw speed, but I want a deck that doesn't scoop to Workshop.dec.

Lets get the discussion started up again!

Psionic



 

[/u]

[Jhaggs]

I realize that this thread has been dormat for a while but in light of Steve's article, I decided to post the Charbelcher build that I ran this past weekend.  Normally I would have started a new thread but I think many posts in this discussion are worth reading again to review how this deck evolved while at the same time not having to go over old arguments.

Currently, I have been trying to devise a build that could still consistantly "blech" quickly while being able to contain more of a controlish element via FOW.  I most likely will alter this build to test the One Land Plan, which seems ballsy but worth investigating.  

I also decided to cut some maindeck notables (Channel/Windfall) for Cunning Wish with the hope that I could improve some more difficult matchups.  The 2/2 split between the Wishes is still uncertain as I need to test more matches.  I have been debating cutting living wish entirely but that seemed unwise due to its usefulness.  Adding Cunning wish has helped in uping the blue card count for FOW while at the same time still being able to wish for removal.  Although these wishes are only 2 of's, the deck doesn't have problem drawing into them.  On an obvisous observational note, both wishes essentially can grab artifact removal as well as the ability to grab lands and instants.  While having two different wishes may seem janky, my testing has shown that this deck may in fact be able to run both due to the overlapping nature in wishable removal.

Finally, this deck is slower than more traditional blecher builds.  However, I think a reduction in deck speed is warranted to boost your win percentages against control decks or decks that pack blecher hosers (trinisphere/chalice/ect).  I haven't seen the reduction in speed decrease your ability to still roll over aggro decks or even be outraced by other combo decks.  

Here is what I ran:

LANDS 2
1   Bayou        
1   Tropical Island

MANA SOURCES  17      
4   Dark Ritual        
4   Elvish Spirit Guide  
1   Sol Ring  
1   Mana Crypt  
1   Mana Vault
1   Black Lotus    
1   Mox Emerald  
1   Mox Jet    
1   Mox Pearl    
1   Mox Ruby  
1   Mox Sapphire  

OTHER MANA SOURCES 12  
4   Land Grant
4   Chromatic Sphere
4   Tinder Wall  

Utility & Control 10
2   Goblin Welder    
2   Cunning Wish  
2   Living Wish
4   Force of Will    
 
DRAW 15      
1   Necropotence        
1   Ancestral Recall        
4   Brainstorm        
1   Mystical Tutor        
1   Vampiric Tutor        
1   Demonic Tutor      
1   Time Walk    
1   Timetwister    
1   Tinker    
1   Memory Jar  
1   Wheel of Fortune      
1   Yawgmoth's Will    
 
KILL 4
1   Tendrils of Agony      
3   Goblin Charbelcher      
     
   
Side Board 15
1   Gemstone Mine        
1   Mishra's Workshop        
1   Tolarian Academy        
1   Elvish Lyrist        
1   Scavenger Folk        
1   Xantid Swarm    
1   Goblin Welder        
1   Skeleton Scrying
1   Fire (Fire/Ice)    
1   Artifact Mutation  
1   Oxidize        
1   Stifle        
1   Swords to Plowshares    
1   Blue Elemental Blast        
1   Red Elemental Blast

Edit: SB changes

[carlossb]

I also decided to cut some maindeck notables (Channel/Windfall) for Cunning Wish with the hope that I could improve some more difficult matchups.  

Channel is one of the most important cards of the deck. If it wasn´t restricted, I would play more of them.

[Kowal]

I don't understand how you can possibly even consider cutting Channel when your one step killing process is "ramp to seven colorless mana."

[yodoblec]

Exactly you really need channel to give you a boost for more mana. I really like Windfall in this deck because your hand is depleted very very fast with so many accelerants and moxes. It would only be a bad card if you're playing against another belcher deck.

[goober]

Channel is by far the most broken card in the deck.  One of the reasons it is so broken is that it makes cards like Winfall cost C.  I have won countless games because of Channel, use it for draw7 goodness, Belch.

I think Cunning Wish costs too much to be effective.  This deck can't afford to pay 3 to get a spell, then play it.  A lot of the mana in this isn't reusable, so if you Cunning Wish you won't be able Belch for a few turns, which isn't acceptable when your game plan is speed.

[Smmenen]

He also cut a Goblin Charbelcher, which I think is unthinkable.

There are a few possibilities I see with the deck.

One is to run more Brainstorms.  I find this card to help the deck out enormously.  The second is to up the Cabal Ritual count as I have done.  Third, instead of cutting a land entirely as I had done, perhaps it needs to be in the SB, or be SBed out in the high pressure matchups?

Steve

[theorigamist]

Steve, what matches would you sideboard a land out against?  I think if the deck is as consistent (or rather, as inconsistent) with one land as it is with two, then you might as well use one land.  As to your other suggestion (having the land in the SB), what's the point?  You won't need the mana fixing beyond Gemstone Mine.  You won't need more mana, or you would fetch Workshop or Tolarian.

I agree that Brainstorms are good, but I wouldn't want to up the count beyond two.  They are good if you need to randomly dig for a must-counter spell.  But when you have multiples in your opening hand or your first few cards, you almost need to mulligan.  As long as there are other cheap tutors to use, I would rather tutor than dig and hope.  But if you are going to dig and hope, has anybody considered Plunge Into Darkness?  That digs much further, and black mana is easier than blue mana (especially with a higher Ritual count).

[bebe]

Having played the deck at a few venues, I feel confidernt with a two land build. I failed to go off once in all my matches. I like the two Brainstrom configuration and two Cabals have worked well for me. It is not mana issues I've had with the deck. It is the prevalence of FoW and Rod that pushed me away from the deck.
Channel is a given as already stated. I also use one transmute artifact in my build ( tacky but sometimes effective ).

[carlossb]

Well, in this deck we are playing with Land Grant. Land Grant fetches our ONLY land.
Land Grant ALSO lets us shuffle the library, so they act a bit as the fetchlands do in other decks with Brainstorm.

So basically the Brainstorm act as a nearly Ancestral Recall. Why we wouldn´t play with more pseudo-Ancestral?

@Smmenen

high pressure matchups

Mud and second match when drawing?

I don´t see the Bayou as a Wish-target, as there´re only 2 wishes in the deck, and they usually get an Academy or a Welder (as theorigamist also said)

[Shades]

The only problem I have with running more brainstorms, is that this card is blue. I really had some mana issues with it. Especially when I want to cats a draw 7 after brainstorming that turn, I never really had the UU to cast both.

Other point: The Bayou. I'd never cut it, because there are situations, where you simply need to fetch B with land grant. and I never really had a problem with fizzling because I had the 2nd land in my deck, I've tested it without the Bayou after reading your article, steve, but I put it back after about 5 or 6 games, just because I was missing the black mana more often than fizzling with the bayou in the deck. Maybe you can board it out, yeah, that could be possible. Btw. It would be really nice if the land grant could fetch underground sea, than I would make a totally diffrent deck (by totally I mean cutting the tinder walls, adding more cabal rituals, only one land etc. )

[Smmenen]

I have found that two lands are simply unacceptable against most good decks with pressure becuase they will take advantage of your failure to win - as my article illustrated.  It's not just Tog that will do it, but almost any deck in the format worth its weight.  

It's simply unacceptable to lose a game becuase you hit a land.  This happened to me ALOT.

Steve

[skecreatoR]

I experienced hitting a land more often then not, and I swear to play without more then one land, as I for a long time weren't able to "just win". And activating a belcher two times, is very, very difficult, as everybody knows.

But the thing is, it is also some sort of luck. Sometimes the land will be in the bottom, other times it will be at the top. Even though the statistics will definitely go in favor of 1 land when counting how often you hit a land, it can't simply be proved by playing ten games, it need a lot more.

I tried the B/G build, and found that the different approach in that deck makes it slower, but a bit more versatile as it simply relies even heavylier on controlling the deck, instead of just dropping a belcher > activate it.

I'm not saying the version I tryed is the best or anything, it is just something to look at.

Mana (38):

1 Bayou
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Birds of Paradise
R Black Lotus
R Lion's Eye Diamond
R Grim Monolith
R Sol Ring
R Mana Vault
6 Moxen(Guess which isn't included)
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Land Grant
R Channel
R Lotus Petal
R Mana Crypt

Teh W1n (4):
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Search (11):
4 Tainted Pact
4 Spoils of the Vault
R Vampiric Tutor
R Demonic Tutor
R Demonic Consultation

Broken (3):
R Yawgmoth's Will
R Memory Jar
R Necropotence

Protection (4):
4 x Xantid Swarm

It might be outdated, yet it is still very consistant, it rarely stalls. It isn't the correct build, it is just an alternative way to play The Clock.

[Bulls on Parade]

Although Skecreator's build differs significantly from the list everyone's currently going by, I've been working a lot on a list that takes the deck in a completely different direction. Like Ske, I don't feel that my list is optimal (I've actually changed it quite a bit from the list I've been testing so I could show all the different ideas I have for the deck), but I do believe the optimal Belcher list may very well follow the design I've thrown together, that is, incorporating the Neo-Academy "engine":

Belching Tendrils
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Channel
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Sol Ring
4 Land Grant
1 Grim Monolith  

1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
4 Meditate
2 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Goblin Charbelcher

What's present apart from other Belcher lists is obviously the Neo-Academy engine (Helm + Meditate + Impulse) which, conceptually, this deck stands to benefit from substantially. The list is 61 cards currently, and I'm toying around with what to cut now. Sometimes when I like to think its the MWS shuffler that's been screwing my deck I rip out 4 good cards for ESG's, play a few games, and then cut them again.

I haven't had any problem with 2 lands- it's not too difficult to play 2 Land Grants once you get going, and if I can't achieve that, I'll take the risk of winning one turn later.  
It would be awesome if a more established combo player would pick up the Neo-Academy engine for testing, so more players would believe how good it is.

[frimble]

@ Bulls: I like this as an alternative.  I had said a long time ago that a complete re-vamping was needed to be able to fit in Force of Wills.  This is a neat Idea to look at.  This hits the 18 blue card count needed to have the same stats of having a FoW on first turn as  Trinistax has of dropping a 1st-turn 3sphere.  But, I suppose the next question is.... does it still have the 80% by 2nd turn kill???

I still favor the 2-lands over one.  A lot of times I want to fetch for a blue source.  I prefer consistancy over luck of being able to draw into a mana converter.

[bebe]

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=148

So Charbelcher makes top eight with the two land version that is very close to what I play. We are three cards different.

Steve ...
Our results just do not coincide. I rarely have a problem with two lands and I find I need both mana sources at times depending on my opening hand. In fact two lands means I mulligan less.

Bulls on Parade
I'm not against your build but I'm hesitant to give up tutors and Nrcropotence to accomodate the Fows and Duresses. I'm confident that Xantids and Welders are equally effective in a deck designed to go off before turn four. I will test this version though and get back with comments.