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Author Topic: [Deck] Control Slaver  (Read 22194 times)
jpmeyer
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2004, 02:57:06 pm »

Quote
From:   KSesler   
To:   jpmeyer   
Posted:   Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:51 pm   
Subject:   Control Slaver manabase - Fragile?       
Hi JP:

Since I do not have special access to reply to the Control Slaver posts in the Type 1 forum, I am sending you this e-mail.

I am sending you this email because I see you have been competing in alot of tournaments that use the Control Slaver builds.

I think ELDs/Atog Lords' build (and ELDs) could be even more effective if the manabase was tweaked.

I tried Atog Lords build of Control Slavery yesterday against a Keeper friend of mine, and went 3-3.

My friend was playing 4 wastelands and one strip mine.
Since the build only has 4 red land sources, my friend quickly learned to save his wastelands/strips for the volcanics once they hit the table, whether through fetchland or land drop.

There are ALOT of red spells in Atog Lords/ELD's build main deck and SB, and my deck was slowed down alot by this strategy, as I often had a handful of REBs/Welders I could do nothing with.

Suggestion: I have looked at the manabase Steve M. uses in his Meandeck build, and see he uses 4 Shivan Reefs.

My suggestion for the Control Slaver build would be reduce the number of Islands from 6 to 4, and add 2 Shivan Reefs.
This should greatly increase the usefulness of REBs and Shamans/Welders.

Since many of the same sideboard cards are used against Tog as well, I think this would help out the Tog matchup, and make it even more favorable than it is now.

So, in addition to the artifact mana, the lands would look something like:
4 fetch, 4 volcanic, 2 Shivan Reef, 2 Underground Sea, 4 Island, and 1 LOA.

I would be curious to hear your thoughts on this, since you and Steve seem to be the best Type 1 players around, and have created so many Tier 1 decks.

On a side note, I am going to try to make it out to Origins and Gencon, so may see you at one or the other.
I just reaquired my final piece of power (A Black Lotus for $500).
While this is somewhat more than the $28 I paid 10 years ago, I am serious about getting back into the Type 1 scene after a 7 year hiatus.
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2004, 06:15:57 pm »

I received a similar PM, and responded something like this:

He's certainly right that against Keeper, so much of the matchup is dependent on mana. If Keeper can manage to use its land destruction, and sometimes its Mox Monkey, to destroy Control Slaver's mana base, it becomes rather difficult to win. Otherwise, it is often a favorable matchup.

When I first started working on Control Slaver, I found myself losing many games to Keeper because of the mana base's being destroyed by Wasteland. Ironically, I ended up adding more basic Islands (up to six, which is the number I still play) in order to get around Wasteland.

Basic Islands are strong because they are immune to Wasteland, and because they are immune to Blood Moon.

So, as for Shivan Reef. I haven't tested it yet, but I usually have enough red mana against Keeper. The trick is to be careful with fetchlands. Since Reefs make the deck more vulnerable to Wasteland, I'm not sure how much they would improve the match, but I'd be very interested in hearing any test results.

After sideboarding against Keeper, you will have Blood Moon, and so will therefore have more access to more red mana. Also, if mana is still an issue, you might wish to try going to 4 Brainstorm and 2 Fire/Ice in the maindeck. I've just started to test a build like this, and it does seem to improve draws overall. Brainstorm helps the deck's mana base work.
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2004, 06:57:33 pm »

My 2c:  I lost in the finals last week with Control Slaver to RU Fish because I could not keep a Volcanic in play.  I'll definitely be tweaking the mana-base if I play the deck again.  

One other thing is that the mana-count seems plenty high, but the balance between stable land sources (for Mana Drain) and quick combo sources (like Crypt and Vault) is hard to pinpoint.  I would like to try one more land and one less Vault I think.  

I did add a Strip Mine instead of the 6th Island; 5 Islands seems plenty.

Other:

I didn't see any discussion of Meandeck Slaver in the Primer.  I playtested this on Thursday after the tournament and it is a bad matchup.  It's a little hard to tell because out of the first 10 games Zhalfirin Ancestral'ed before I had UU about 8 times, so it was one of those sort of days.  :-/  Lol.  Still, it looked grim.
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2004, 06:00:49 am »

I played Control Slaver this weekend with two changes: One Brainstorm over a F/I and one Shivan Reef over an Island.

The deck went pretty well. I had troubles vs combo. Belcher was everywhere and I just squeezed out a 2-1 win against one of them. I escaped the others.

I made t8 but lost vs Rector Tendrils. Overall I felt that the deck was poorly equipped to fight combo and I would suggest some changes in the SB. Tormod´s Crypt seems an automatic inclusion against Dragon and maybe some Chalices for Storm decks. Extra Blood Moons could help as well.

In the European meta Chalice seems indicated, because Duress and Therapy are everywhere, making Stifle less attractive.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2004, 02:52:12 pm »

I wanted to discuss some of the weaknesses of Control Slaver. By doing so, I hope to explain why its difficult matchups are so difficult. Further, by bringing these weaknesses to light, hopefully someone will have some clever ideas for strengthening the deck.

A deck which attempts to play the control role against Control Slaver will have a very difficult time. This is in many ways due to Control Slaver’s high threat count, strong drawing engine, and ability eventually to wish its way out of nearly any unfavorable situation. However, it is very possible to find success as the beatdown deck against Control Slaver.

First, Control Slaver has fewer control elements than a deck such as Hulk. Therefore, Control Slaver is often less able to disrupt a combo deck in the first few turns than Hulk. That is why a Tendrils-based deck with a strong opening hand can sometimes win before Control Slaver has established itself in the game. Dragon in particular is tough. Dragon can match Control Slaver’s Force of Wills and Drains with its own control elements, while using Bazaar to keep up with -- and oftentimes exceed -- Control Slaver’s card advantage. Unlike most control decks, Control Slaver runs no way at all to remove Bazaars.

Second, I mentioned in my Primer that I didn’t think Control Slaver would ever become a field-dominating deck because of how easy it is to hate, and because it has issues with some budget decks. The UG Madness deck is certainly an example of this. Control Slaver itself is usually quick enough to race an aggro deck without much disruption, such as Virtual Insanity. However, both UG Madness and OStompy run enough disruption that Control Slaver is often unable to win before having its life reduced to below one. Null Rod is not so much a lock piece against Control Slaver as it is a card which buys several turns, which are often enough.
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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2004, 08:02:09 am »

I hear you. In that case we should look at the SB options. You propose:

SB: 1 Shattering Pulse
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Hibernation
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast

If you have a good game vs Control and you can bring in 2 Blood Moon, then I think you should cut on the REBs.

Also you are running 4 artifact removal cards. Workshop decks are not your worst matchups, just because of the fact that you have 4 Welders in the maindeck and maindeck answers to dispose of theirs. And we´re not even talking about the Wishes.

In the last tourney I ran 2 R&R and was happy.

The BEB: this is a good card vs Sligh but questionable vs Dragon. It is duressable and worthless with a Swarm out. Tormod´s Crypt is a permanent answer, can be tinkered for and reused with Welder and as a bonus also usable vs Rector, Tog and in the mirror.

You´re running 1 Hibernation as a wishable solution for green aggro and things like Ground Seal (or Root Maze if that bothers you). But besides the F/Ifew else. As posted previously by someone else, FTK is an excellent card vs green aggro with 4/4 Wurms. It can win a couple of turns, enough to find you and protect the Angel.

A SB like this looks more diverse and better:
2 Chalice of the Void
2 R&R
2 FTK
2 REB
2 Blood Moon
2 Tormod´s Crypt
1 FoF
1 F/I
1 Hibernation

That is a lot of 2-ofs, but you will see if you bring in a lot of cards vs a certain deck, that you will start undermining your own deck. E.g. going below 3 Brainstorm IMO is a mistake, because it will affect the stability of the deck. You have a very tight synergistic deck with a number of cards you NEVER side out and only a couple that you can easily miss.

Finally note that you have a lot of search/tutors and you should find your SB cards in an early stage of the game.
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2004, 09:23:34 am »

Quote from: Gabethebabe

A SB like this looks more diverse and better:
2 Chalice of the Void
2 R&R
2 FTK
2 REB
2 Blood Moon
2 Tormod´s Crypt
1 FoF
1 F/I
1 Hibernation

That is a lot of 2-ofs, but you will see if you bring in a lot of cards vs a certain deck, that you will start undermining your own deck. E.g. going below 3 Brainstorm IMO is a mistake, because it will affect the stability of the deck. You have a very tight synergistic deck with a number of cards you NEVER side out and only a couple that you can easily miss.

Finally note that you have a lot of search/tutors and you should find your SB cards in an early stage of the game.


I agree with the idea behind this sideboard. I do think you should always play a Vampiric Tutor in your sideboard. I played Control Slaver in Moll this weekend and I Wished for it in about three games, getting a Will or Time Walk to set up a Mindslaver lock. I also like having a third Rack and Ruin because I sometimes want to sideboard 2 into the maindeck and that would leave me without a Wishable Rack and Ruin.
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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2004, 04:17:45 pm »

I think if we're going to discuss the weaknesses of Control Slaver it may be pertinent to discuss the two different directions the deck has taken.  Rich's builds remain heavily control oriented, while my build for the last Columbus tournament took ELD's more aggressive approach to the max.  Some of my tweaks to ELD's build were based on my experience with Workshop Slaver, a deck that whose overall game plan is very aggressive, both in terms of slaving and in terms of attacking.  So here's my list, I'll comment on my changes below and then try to generalize a bit.

Mean Deck Drain Slaver:
(this version plays the aggressive role more often than it plays the control role, and when learning it I often lost games by trying to play a more draw-go strategy.  Perhaps I'm being picky or anal, but I really think it represents the correct mindset.  Anyways, here's the list with differences from Rich's primer build in bold...)

3 x Mindslaver
2 x Pentavus
4 x Goblin Welder
2 x Gorilla Shaman
4 x Force of Will
4 x Mana Drain
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Thirst for Knowledge
1 x Fact or Fiction
1 x Memory Jar
1 x Tinker
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk
8 x SoLoCrMoxen
1 x Mana Vault
4 x Volcanic Island
5 x Island
1 x Tolarian Academy
1 x Library of Alexandria
2 x Underground Sea
4 x Polluted Delta

Side Board:
4 x Flametongue Kavu
3 x Red Elemental Blast
2 x Gorilla Shaman
2 x Blood Moon
2 x Rack and Ruin
1 x Duplicant
1 x Platinum Angel


The biggest changes from ELD's list are the removal of Cunning Wish and Platinum Angel; you can see his justifications for other changes from Rich's list earlier in the thread.  First, the Angel: I don't think Counter-Angel is a very worthwhile strategy to be run in the deck.  While it does make some sense as a long term, anti-aggro strategy when you're playing very control oriented, I'd just rather win.  Pentavus is almost as good Platinum Angel vs aggro decks because without null rod on the board he holds down the fort with Pentavites, and with null rod on the board he's almost always bigger than their creatures.  Also, this guy helps you go infinite.  When ELD was asked what he did vs null rod aggro, he said something along the lines of combo out or lose.  This is also the primary strategy against Tog, particularly post board.  Lastly, Pentavites fly, and while Slaver decks have the ability to gain control of the game fairly easily, a mistake I initially made with both versions of the deck was to forsake killing the opponent ASAP.

Pentavus #2 also makes more sense in light of cutting the Cunning Wishes for Mindslaver #3 and Gorilla Shaman #2.  The primary Wish targets are artifact removal, creature removal, draw, and red blast.  Mindslaver is often more powerful than any one of these wish targets, and often becomes two or three of them.  I'd much rather aggressively carry out my primary strategy of draw cards, slave my opponent, win, than add react to their threats and draw more cards in there.   Gorilla Shaman #2 made a lot of sense in the Columbus metagame.  It nullifys welders (the most important creature removal), can eat null rod, and, even more tech, eats moxes that you weld in to take null rod's place (artifact removal).  All the relevant card draw is already in the main deck, and after Columbus there's no way I'd not run Fact or Fiction main deck.  

Tolarian Academy made the cut in my build again because of the inbred Cbus meta.  Academy makes more than 1 blue and shuts off their Academy (!!!) more often than it produces nothing.  Also, people tend to Wasteland it before they destroy your Volcanic Island or even your Library.  I'm still up in the air about whether it makes the cut if you don't expect many other decks to run it.

My sideboard was also heavily tuned to the Columbus metagame, but I think it's mostly right on.  Smmenen and I developed the man plan for Workshop Slaver on the 9 hour drive to the dual lotus tournament, and I think it's a great response to null rod aggro.  I adapted it to this verison utilizing ELD's amazing tech Flametongue Kavu.  Platinum Angel and Duplicant round out your guys.  Transitioning to Aggro/Control (I even side out my Mindslavers) vs Fish and U/G Mandess is really strong, but I haven't tested vs O. Stompy, which is probably the true test of the plan's viability in this deck.  Another thing to look at is how this strategy plays out when they expect it or even think it's a possibility.  Gorilla Shaman 3 and 4 were there for Workshop Slavery, which I think is at least even if not favorable matchup for this build.  You remove your welders in favor of 4 (!!!) Gorilla Shaman and 2 Rack and Ruin, and play pure control.  If you can make the game last past the first couple turns you're in great shape.  Blood Moon and Red Elemental Blast are neccessary vs. control.

Now you know where I was at for Cbus, so here's where I'm at now.  In a different metagame I might cut 2 Gorilla Shamans for 2 Cunning Wish, or cut 1 Gorilla Shaman for another relevant metagame card.  It could be Memnarch, and it's worth noting that some people think that Pentavus #2 should be Memnarch instead.  If Workshop Slaver won't be overrepresented, Academy should probably be cut in favor of Underground Sea #3 or Shivan Reef #1 depending on how much you fear Wasteland.  My Aggro/Control plan should probably be tested further vs O. Stompy or other budget decks that you fear, but I think it's a pretty solid plan.  If it continues to work, that just leaves combo as something to be feared.  Combo seems to be really underrepresented right now because of Workshop Slaver and Tog (generally strong vs Combo) and general metagame hate.  I'd probably just accept losing to combo most of the time, but otherwise my sideboard can be tuned based on what you fear least.  Unfortunately I tend to have a specific testing agenda based on the next power tournament that I'm attending, so I won't be doing much work on the deck for at least two weeks.  I hope my ideas help.

Peace,
   Jason
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2004, 04:38:33 pm »

Quote from: thecapn
Gorilla Shaman #2 made a lot of sense in the Columbus metagame.  It nullifys welders (the most important creature removal), can eat null rod, and, even more tech, eats moxes that you weld in to take null rod's place (artifact removal).


Well, eating Null Rod takes 5 land to do.  That's not exactly what I would call a reliable strategy, since the decks that run Null Rod generally hit you with Wastes and go for the throat.  Or rather, I should ask how getting 5 land is somehow better than getting 3 land for C.Wish.

Also, they don't run many Moxen, so eating one of their Moxen to weld out Null Rod isn't a common occurrence either.  It happens, I'll admit, but C.Wish is a one-shot deal where you don't need Welder to make it work.  

I'm not saying Shaman is bad, but if you're going to play a more aggressive strategy, why not just stick with Workshop Slaver?  That would satisfy the aggressive edge a lot more than Control Slaver.
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2004, 05:14:16 pm »

Rico:
   I'll definitely admit that removing Null Rod with Gorilla Shaman isn't one of his primary functions and isn't too relaible, but it is a backup plan.  I tend to try to counter null rod or just swing with Pentavus or just ignore it post sideboard.  Keep in mind that Wishing for an answer takes 3 mana twice.  

  As far as to why play Drain Slaver over Workshop Slaver?  A lot of people, particularly team mates, asked me this, and I don't have a definite answer.  It's a solid deck and is very powerful when if played well.  Also, I like the dual role that mana drain can play in the deck, and the fact that even when tuned for aggression the deck is awesome at playing control.  The deck is very versatile, and I personally think the way to play the Mindslaver strategy is aggressively - my tuning reflects this.  Also, in some ways I see your question as being something like: if you want to play aggro-control, why not play Tog over Fish?  Sometimes you just want to play a solid deck and not necessarily the most outwardly broken one.  

Hope I made sense,
 Jason

P.S. Yes, I realize the arguments for choosing between Tog and Fish are much more complex than that...
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2004, 05:38:00 pm »

Well it's certainly an intresting version of Control Slaver. Also your arguement w/ Wishing for an anwser costing six is a bit off, you could just run like one Overload or Shattering Pulse boarded and that lowers the cost a bit. And since C. Wish already has more versatility than Shaman, I would think it'd be worth it.

The shamans just seem to stick out in the deck, compared to everything else your running.
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2004, 06:15:14 pm »

Cunning Wish is an answer not only to Null Rod, but also to such cards as Damping Matrix and Ground Seal and Humility, cards to which the Gorilla is not an answer. In a general metagame, therefore, the Wishes seem as though they are a more flexible answer. However, the Shaman is more powerful in the mirror match than Cunning Wish; if your metagame has a large amount of Slaver, there may be an argument for including it.

As for the Angel, she is good not only against aggro but also against combo decks. Further, it seems that the UG Madness builds have no maindeck answer for her. I'm not saying that she is an essential card for the deck; however, she is plan #1 in several matchups.
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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2004, 05:37:13 am »

Jason: with your list, don´t you find yourself losing to randomred.dec?

Chrome Mox: if it is borderline in draw7, a deck that draws many more cards than Slaver, it should be ass in Slaver. I would take Lotus petal over it and Crypt over Petal.
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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2004, 06:38:19 am »

Gabethebabe: The Columbus metagame is very narrow, both because a lot of the players are on Mean Deck or are our friends and because it is unlimited proxies.  I tuned the deck for that specific metagame and didn't test much outside of what I expected, but the list was very effective for that metagame so I thought it might have some merit elsewhere.  Also the Cr in 8 x SoLoCrMoxen is Mana Crypt not Chrome Mox; I guess Mana Crypt isn't standard enough for that to be understood... yet...   Rolling Eyes
Thanks for the input.
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« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2004, 03:22:50 am »

Quote
However, the Shaman is more powerful in the mirror match than Cunning Wish; if your metagame has a large amount of Slaver, there may be an argument for including it.


Absolutely.  After all those horrible playtest games against Meandeck Slaver I really wished for two cards: 1) Gorilla Shaman, 2) Trike.  The Shaman keeps them from playing out their artifact mana without fear of retribution; in several games I was able to establish a temporary Welder superiority but couldnt follow up without a Shaman or Karn to start destroying their board.  Trike is (of course) so important when fighting Welder wars.  

Considering the meta in Columbus I think 2xShaman is correct.
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2004, 02:38:01 am »

Just a silly idea:

Has anyone ever considered removing the brokenness of Black from Control-Slaver and add strips?

Something like:

-1 Yawgmoth´s Will
-1 Demonic Tutor
-2 Underground Sea
-1 Island

+1 Strip Mine
+4 Wasteland

??

(By adding strips, you will need to up your mana count).

I got this idea after reading Rudy´s report and his comments about Blood Moon and its ass-ness.
Generally it is a good idea to be able to mess up your opponents mana and if Blood Moon does not qualify, how about the good old effectiveness of Strips? Stripping Workshops, Libraries, Bazaars = some good.

The (dis)advantages are clear:
- Less blue sources for you (and for your opponent).
- No more Wills that win you games, but now some random strip effects will win you games.
- One tutor less - leaving you helpless with "only" Brainstorms, Thirsts, Wishes and Tinker.

Worth testing or no?
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2004, 02:43:28 am »

It's always worth a test-run ofcourse. However, I don't think I could get myself to cut Will. DT sure, but not Will. It's just too sick sometimes to pass up, and it's basicly another win condition next to Slaver.

In Tom's list for Antwerp, he played Strip Mine over Shivan Reef from my list. We tried that yesterday, and in like 20 games, Strip Mine was NEVER better than Shivan Reef. That's right, NEVER. I'm not saying it's a sound implication that 5x Strip doesn't work either, but I don't think the deck needs it. Also, you want to be as explosive as possible with Welders, Thirsts and stuff, and you also want UU on turn 2. For those reasons alone it's not very strong to possible be blowing up land during your vital setup turns.
Also, since control is already a strong matchup, I don't think it's needed.
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2004, 06:07:54 am »

My thoughts on those lands are the same as what I wrote in the Primer:

Quote from: I
Me Some control decks, such as Keeper, include a land destruction component. This complements those decks’ general strategy of shutting down the opposing deck. On the other hand, Control Slaver is concerned with stifling the opponent just enough so that its own combo is able to become active. Further, Control Slaver is a deck trying to do several things at once, both playing the role of a control deck and also assembling its combo pieces. With what may already be considered a split focus, there is no room left in Control Slaver to try also to play a land destruction game. Thus, neither Strip Mine nor Wasteland makes sense for Control Slaver.


In addition, as MoreFling wrote, Yawgmoth's Will is too powerful to cut. It can win games on its own, and it can win game that few other cards are capable of winning. While I could see cutting perhaps one land for a Strip Mine, removing black from the deck seems too dangerous.
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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2004, 12:15:08 am »

Quote
...and you also want UU on turn 2.


This is something I don't get about this deck.  A lot of people are playing really aggressive land counts like 17 or 16, yet you do want to be able to cast Mana Drain ASAP.  (Dont you?!)

Running a little math(*), I find that a 7 card hand has about a 40% chance of not showing UU to start.  An 8 card hand is 31%, a 9 card hand is 24%.  So:

UU 7 cards 60%
UU 8 cards 69%
UU 9 cards 76%

Now, you have to make your mulligan decision after seeing either 7 or 8 cards depending on whether you won the coin toss; you'll have to make your turn 2 play after 8 or 9 cards; hence these numbers.  

Can you afford to keep a hand with one blue source?  It's relatively likely you'll have to make that decision in any given game.  I don't get how Mana Drain ends up being a valid part of this decks plan given the land count.

(*) Math caveats: There are like 100 caveats to this sort of calculation.  I only counted lands and the sapphire as U sources, so no Lotus and no Tolarian.  I didn't account for any plays by either player, like you Ancestralling to get more cards or him Wastelanding your land.  But the numbers should serve as a decent benchmark for discussion.
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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2004, 11:02:07 am »

It's hard to calculate perfectly because you also have to factor in things like Brainstorm, F/I cantripping, etc.  

It adds up to a higher number with all that thrown in, even assuming your current numbers are correct.
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« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2004, 03:51:37 pm »

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It's hard to calculate perfectly because you also have to factor in things like Brainstorm, F/I cantripping, etc.


Sure, I mentioned that in the caveats section.  But, it's not going to swing the numbers by more than 5% since these are all edge cases; one Ancestral, three Brainstorms, two F/I in the deck -- and you have to have the mana to use them.  And, I think we're in the right ballpark if we imagine that for every good thing (Brainstorm, Ancestral) there is an equal bad thing (Wasteland, FoW) which cancels it out.  

Basically, the numbers are just there to back up what I noticed playing the deck -- it's not consistent about putting UU on the board.  

Now, as I look at late-model Keeper and Tog lists I see that an arguement can be made that they are only marginally more stable in terms of producing UU.  Let me ask the question in those terms then: Do Control Slaver players think the deck is more, the same or less stable than Tog or Keeper mana-wise?  Are you keeping 1 Land + Brainstorm hands (like you are back playing Gro! Lol.)?

Caveat #2: As I alluded to earlier I played the early version with 3 Brainstorms.  Although I see some people still playing 3, nowadays 4 must be the correct call.  If you need UU, you need to stabilize this deck as much as you can.
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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2004, 04:29:38 pm »

Quote from: Fishhead
Sure, I mentioned that in the caveats section.  But, it's not going to swing the numbers by more than 5% since these are all edge cases; one Ancestral, three Brainstorms, two F/I in the deck -- and you have to have the mana to use them.  And, I think we're in the right ballpark if we imagine that for every good thing (Brainstorm, Ancestral) there is an equal bad thing (Wasteland, FoW) which cancels it out.  


Well, Brainstorms alone will swing it 5% (at least 4 will, which I do agree should be 4), and the lack of Academy/Lotus in the calculations will bring it up even further.  

I'm just disagreeing with the numbers, that's all, especially if you're going to go so far as to say Mana Drain can't be a valid part of this deck's strategy.
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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2004, 06:09:18 pm »

@Fishhead: Are you sure you added the hands where you have more than 2 U-sources in your opening hand? I'm quite sure I did not have 40% games where I missed my 2nd landdrop.

As for comparisons, I'D say it is about as stable getting UU as my Keeper is (which incidently runs the same number of U sources, I think)
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« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2004, 09:03:34 pm »

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Are you sure you added the hands where you have more than 2 U-sources in your opening hand? I'm quite sure I did not have 40% games where I missed my 2nd landdrop.


-edit-
Yeah, the math works out as I layed it out above.  But, I ran a more complex problem set; I included Brainstorms and the Ancestral.  In short, a 7 card hand is better thought of as 60% good, 30% maybe and 10% bad where "maybe" is 1 Land+Brainstorm(s) or Ancestral.  All the "maybes" can the be resolved by looking 3 cards deep.  So, at the end, a 7 card hand is 78% good, 22% bad (assuming now that your Ancestral resolves and/or you don't get Wastelanded).  

The point I guess here is that I misplayed my mulligans before; I just have to keep 1 Land + Brainstorm hands and hope for the best.  22% bad is not exactly where I want to be, but I am making the best of a unfavorable draw at this point.

Is this a correct assumption?
-end edit-

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I'D say it is about as stable getting UU as my Keeper is(which incidently runs the same number of U sources, I think)


That isn't my experience, but I may have just had a bad day with the deck.  The more I look at it, the more I see that the U mana-base is comparable to current Tog.  When I played Control Slaver I played it like Keeper; in that I really wanted to see a way to get two land on the board out of my opening hand.  No Land+Brainstorm hands etc.  Maybe my mulligan strategy was wrong.

OTOH, did you read Torben Schroeders report?  http://www.morphling.de/reportarchiv.php?report=72 Look at how many times he mulligans or gets screwed by a single Wasteland.  My day felt a lot like that.
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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2004, 12:17:47 pm »

From my orignal list I've cut platnum angel for pentavus numero dos.  He is really solid against aggro and allows for slaver lock to happen quicker.  

FCG has been an interesting match up as of late.  I recently lost to a really solid draw.  Double lackey and finding a strip for my 1st basic island.  The strip came up to kill my basic again in game 2, buying enough time to lose me the game.  Fire/Ice seems to be a little too slow, BEB has been pretty solid.  In general with this match, going broken will win me the match easily.  Mind Slaver as a card seems really good against them as well.  The key to the deck is clearly lackey, as everything else is just slow enough that you can combo.  I'd like to hear what some experianced players have to say about Control Slaver vs FCG, as it's going to be more and more common in the months ahead.
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