[Single Card Discussion] Sword of Fire and Ice

[Smmenen]

I posted this topic on the StarCityGames front page today and felt it worthy of discussion here:

Does Sword of Fire and Ice have a place in Type One?
Stephen Menendian talked Tueseday about the Type One Metagame and the dominance of Tog.  Could Sword of Fire and Ice break open the Tog mirror becuase a) your opponent can't Red Elemental Blast your Tog, and b) becuase your opponent's Togs can't Block your tog either.
An Italian won the Milano touranment    with Stacker (aggro workshop) using Sword of Fire and Ice. Is Sword of Fire and Ice going to enter the realm of playable Type One cards, or is it merely a blip on the radar?  Will it break open the Tog mirror?  Discuss!

 
Steve

[Kowal]

I've been telling people this card is the nut forever.  It's just got too much relevant text to be ignored.

I especially like the thought of it going in some tubbies style deck based on the effective mana development (workshop mox jug, mountain sword equip swing for 9) but it, as Steve mentioned on AIM the other day, has potential in pretty much everything.

Pro: Blue allows you to forget about Tog and friends as blockers, as well as allow you to ignore Capsize, Control Magic, Gilded Drake, and others.

Pro: Red allows you to ignore burn, Rack and Ruin, Shattering Pulse, Artifact Mutation, Goblin Welder, etc.

+2/+2 is obviously damn good.

The two damage is key against workshop, denying them welder.  It just so happens that worst case scenerio this will aim another two at your opponent's dome.

And THEN, even after all this, you get the curiosity effect.  Wtf?  I have no idea what wizards was thinking, but this card is begging to be played.

[Smmenen]

Completely agreed.  In fact, it may form the center of a VERY successful metagame deck in the highest levels of the metagame where everyone plays tier one decks.

Steve

[kirdape3]

Tog.  Mirror.

It's generally annoying to try to build to 20 damage in one shot - you have a bunch of seesaws and a lot of attacking for 1.  This gives you an attack for 5, plus immunity to their Tog, plus drawing.

[Smmenen]

Tog.  Mirror.

It's generally annoying to try to build to 20 damage in one shot - you have a bunch of seesaws and a lot of attacking for 1.  This gives you an attack for 5, plus immunity to their Tog, plus drawing.

See the first post and my comment on Red Elemental Blast as well.

Steve

[Hi-Val]

One of the problems with Fish is its inability to deal with TNT and Oshawa. This is the tool tha tht edeck needs. Since the opposing decks aren't hurt by Null Rod anyway, the plan is to side them out and see what happens. Testing will reveal whether it is a good idea or not, but it is definitely going to find a place in some deck, whether or not it is with The Little Blue Men.

[Ric_Flair]

Since Darksteel came out and EBA did well at Waterbury, I have been trying to figure out how to work in Sword of Fire and Ice into EBA as a replacement for Ophidian (which is too slow).  Any advice?  Do you think this is the appropriate deck for SFI?

[Mario]

SFI would be very strong on an Exalted Angel for additional life gain along with damage to creatures against aggro, and would serve as a card draw engine. However, I do not think it would fit well in EBA due to the fact that it cannot draw cards alone, and consequently, unlike Ophidian, it is not a strong card draw engine alone. Nevertheless, it does warrent testing.

[SpencerForHire]

What about decks that had weak draw engines.. Stompy and such.  This brings up the ability of those type of decks dramatically.  Think about a rancor-esk affect that protects from hate, draws more cards and takes out threats/extra damage to your opponent.
The only factor that makes it disliked is its CC of 5 and technically it could be considered a CC of 3 with echo or something to that affect, it slows you a turn but at the same time will bring you up several turns in advantage if it doesn't get hated away.  

Workshop decks will be able to utilize this card equally in decks like Stacker 3 ( I'm not sure if this deck still exists but yknow.)

[Roxas]

I've been testing this quite a bit in my U/r Fish (though it no longer has any Merfolk in it) SB on MWSplay, in slots formerly taken up by Maze of Ith.  It is remarkably effective if you manage to keep a creature around long enough to equip it.  I am considering testing it MAINDECK over Curiosity, but the conflict with Null Rod poses a problem.

This will likely end up being (yet another) metagame call for the Fish player.  If Null Rod, for one reason or another, is not viable in one's metagame, Sword of Fire and Ice could be a worthwhile replacement.  

The one strike I have against the card is that it requires a rather significant investment of mana (even if spread out over two turns).  However, it is almost surely worth the investment, and Mana Drain is an obviously effective solution to this problem.

Considering these things, EBA (or a deck similar to it) could quite possibly be the best place to use the Sword.  It would be particularly effective with Ophidian and Meddling Mage, making them much more effective attacks on top of their inherent abilities.  Giving Phyrexian Negator protection from burn and blocking Psychatogs could prove quite amusing as well.

As others have said, it will require more testing, but seems to have substantial potential.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Its an awesome anti-control card, but I found it to be a tad on the slow side against aggro, and I always wanted it to be another threat as opposed to a slow answer. It hurts Tog alot.

[Smash]

In the tog mirror, why can't tog wish for edict? Its not that hard to deal with.

[Mixing Mike]

If played a lot, I think Naturalize, Oxidize, Artifact Mutation, Rack and Ruin etc. will all become even more important vs decks outside of Prison.  For the 'Tog mirror, it will make Deed a "2-of" after boarding (maybe even MD) and Wishes will need to go up as well so they can remove SFI.  Upping card counts in Hulk means a metashift, as it has to go to a more control style deck vs. aggro (and combo only because of a diffrent playstyle influenced by changes for SFI), making the deck much weaker on the whole towards the metagame.  


But that is of course only if it's played.  And mainly to brake the mirror.

[np]

I'm not convinced if this will see any play outside of metagamed Workshop decks. As was mantioned before, it's on the slow side against decks that win fast. It' slow against any kind of aggro (you have your one-drop equipped on turn three, if at all) and obviously useless against combo. Against control, it grants protection, yeah, but is mediocre as a creature pumper (though there are colors that have nothing better available).

This all holds true until you get some decent mana acceleration into your deck, so it obviouls rises in value with power and Workshops.
Also note that the decklist Smmenen posted the link to has four Trisks, maximizing the Sword's effect.

I haven't played Hulk ever, so don't lynch me for saying something wrong, but I imagine a Tog mirror can be quite annoying, with all that beef on both sides, so despite its horrendous cost, Fire and Ice may be a good solution. However, isn't there a better option?
The Sword is very powerful once it's equipping a Tog, but won't some cheap unblockability and/or creature removal do the job? (Though I can't think of anything playable granting evasion, except Fire/Ice for the four-colored version.)

[Redman]

This cards looks very promising. Might be an excuse for me to drag out my EBA-like zooish deck - with more creatures than EBA and no ophidians, it's been looking for a way to draw cards for a while.  Even Savannah Kitty is a decently sized threat when this is equipped.  I just fear it being too slow, but then the deck is pretty much ventered around a mana cost of 3 anyway (Note, theres a reason I haven't been playing this deck for a while). I'll definitely be trying this card in a number of different configurations though.

[PandaPokemon]

I think it can be decent against aggro.  I have tried using a version of fish with two of these cards inside (I play against mostly aggro here) and so far I have won more games with it than before.

They won't side in rack and ruins or side them out perhaps since they underestimate the card but it has proven its worth.  I don't think it is a I win more card but for me it has helped me eke out wins at 1 health.  (The pro blue and red effects is what makes it awesome for me)  

Well I hope it is a good card since I picked up a whole bunch of them at the start. =P Joys of speculation.

[Smash]

I think it can be decent against aggro.  I have tried using a version of fish with two of these cards inside (I play against mostly aggro here) and so far I have won more games with it than before.

They won't side in rack and ruins or side them out perhaps since they underestimate the card but it has proven its worth.  I don't think it is a I win more card but for me it has helped me eke out wins at 1 health.  (The pro blue and red effects is what makes it awesome for me)  

Well I hope it is a good card since I picked up a whole bunch of them at the start. =P Joys of speculation.

Can it be a big clunky curiousity for fish? On a flyer, I find it pretty sweet vs aggro. Nail their life, nail a dude (welder, whoever), draw a card. Yipee.

It makes null rod worthless, but nullrod was always an iffy maindeck card to me anyway.

[Rico Suave]

It makes null rod worthless, but nullrod was always an iffy maindeck card to me anyway.

Without Null Rod, Fish would not exist.

[Smash]

It makes null rod worthless, but nullrod was always an iffy maindeck card to me anyway.

Without Null Rod, Fish would not exist.

It helps in certain matchups, but overall is weak. Vs decks like hulk? Whoppe doo.  Vs. all budget aggro decks? Whoppe doo. Vs O. stompy and dragon? Whoppee do.

I have just never been impressed by maindeck nullrod. It can really do good, but it can also lose you round 1 to timmy with goblins, and put you in the loser bracket with people against whom null rod is less than stellar.

[Smmenen]

Nonetheless, the proposition is probably true.  Prison and Combo are archetypes.


Steve

[PandaPokemon]

It makes null rod worthless, but nullrod was always an iffy maindeck card to me anyway.

Without Null Rod, Fish would not exist.

It helps in certain matchups, but overall is weak. Vs decks like hulk? Whoppe doo.  Vs. all budget aggro decks? Whoppe doo. Vs O. stompy and dragon? Whoppee do.

I have just never been impressed by maindeck nullrod. It can really do good, but it can also lose you round 1 to timmy with goblins, and put you in the loser bracket with people against whom null rod is less than stellar.

Whilst we might hope a card is useful against all matchups, that can't be the case all the time.  I made a budget Gay/R deck as I wanted to play on a level playing field with some other people in my area.  But null rod still shuts off moxen, artifact lands (if someone is playing shrapnel blast), cursed scroll (even though it is expensive it is not power), and even type 2 Mirrodinsque decks =P

When I made my comment, I was comparing it to Suq'ata Firewalker I guess.  To put in persepctive I was playing a Ball Lightning, Mass Burn Deck.  Protection from red was needed to prevent a Ball Lightning from hitting me.  Suqata and Sword comes out both on turn 3, Suq'ata has the added benefit of being able to block that turn, but on turn 4 I can equip one creature with it and attack then requip it for blocking purposes.
Anyway with Null Rods maindecked, I did lose the first game to the mass burn deck, but with proper sideboarding I won the next two quite easily.  

Against powered type 1 decks which I don't get to play against very often, they seem adequate too, so long they have a target to equip.  
What has confused me is why do people imply it has immunity to red?  I am pretty sure only the creature is pro blue/red not the sword itself.

Like Kowal Mentioned
"Pro: Red allows you to ignore burn, Rack and Ruin, Shattering Pulse, Artifact Mutation, Goblin Welder, etc. "

[Dr. Sylvan]

@Smash: Smmenen's latest Hulk has, IIRC, eight of twenty-two mana sources artifacts. Null Rod is, in this matchup, a good supplement to Wasteland/Strip Mine to ensure the continued effectiveness of Spiketail/Daze effects into the late game, and prevent too-devastating plays.

And at that Parkland tourney we were both at, my Null Rods certainly helped me beat the Sui deck with Scrolls round one. :)

[Smash]

@Smash: Smmenen's latest Hulk has, IIRC, eight of twenty-two mana sources artifacts. Null Rod is, in this matchup, a good supplement to Wasteland/Strip Mine to ensure the continued effectiveness of Spiketail/Daze effects into the late game, and prevent too-devastating plays.

And at that Parkland tourney we were both at, my Null Rods certainly helped me beat the Sui deck with Scrolls round one.

Yes, but should sui play scrolls even

A sui with null rods pissed me off at that tourney, but I got wish and ended it's misery.

I don't claim to be an expert homofish player, so if they really are that crucial I belive you. I have played against a lot of "good" fish decks, and never really been overly impressed by it.

P.S. You need to play more type 1 with us Dr., what do you do on the weekend anyway that could possibly be more important than type 1?

[Dr. Sylvan]

P.S. You need to play more type 1 with us Dr., what do you do on the weekend anyway that could possibly be more important than type 1?

Type One articles!

...and sleep. A lot of that.

[Gothmog]

Null Rod has a very important effect vs Hulk decks, seriously slowing them down because of their reliance on artifact mana.  Without Null Rod, Turn 2 they Intuition, turn 3 they AK into a ton of cards, turn 4-5 you're done and they had Mana Drain open that whole time.

With Null Rod on the board, not only do you push them back a turn (they don't Intuition until turn 3) but you make your Wastelands that much better, slowing them down, making them pay in time to use all their card draw and giving you more attack phases to make a game.

Of course this is a very general gameplan for both decks and other scenarios happen, but I've found Null Rod to be extremely useful against Hulk.

[mouth]

Would you pay for a 4/4 Pro Red + Blue with built-in curiosity?

The only caveat is that it requires an active creatar in play. In a Tubby deck, you should be able to keep something on the board until you can make it R&R proof. It also makes Welder into a Tubby himself, bonus.

Still, this seems like one of those cards that goes against everything that is Vintage. The power level of SoFI compared to it's cmc just isn't up to par with the rest of the Vintage arsenal. then is alot of friggin' monna, especially for a creature enhancer. Perhaps it's only saving grace is that the first can be Workshopped.

I suppose it also fills a niche in the metagame, whatever.

[DEA]

a few random thoughts

workshop decks don't really like this because of the equip cost

to say that this makes null rod useless is kinda strange, considering you'll never be able to equip it

white weenie is back for the count
leonin shikari, auriok steelshaper, first strikers, eat 8 extra points of dmg for 2, then draw 2 cards
combat tricks up the yin-yang

gay/r doesn't like it very much  :lol:  :lol:

[jpmeyer]

Workshop decks like this because it curves quite easily.  Turn 1 Workshop, Mox, creature, turn 2 land, Sword, equip, attack.

Splitting the cost up isn't really a big deal either.  That just makes it more like a creature in that it has, in a way, summoning sickness.

It makes Null Rod useless in the sense that you can't use that any more in Fish if you have this.

[DEA]

ah, yes, i forgot about moxes
silly me  

[BreathWeapon]

So, is there any deck that would use this other than Stacker?