[Report] TMD n00b @ Dual Lotus in CT 3/20/04-3/21/04

[Kowal]

In the Vampiric Tutor place, you can't finish resolving the spell because you need to find "a card" as part of resolution.  Unlike Mystical Tutor, where you could search your library and not find a sorcery or instant, with Vampiric you NEED to find a card (unless your library is at zero)

[Toad]

Yeah, I replied with Mystical Tutor in mind.

[gregg]

Yeah, I was going to try and call him out on that but then I realized that what happened was: opponent plays Meddling Mage and says some words that don't impact the game. Now he gets to respond. Had he not REB'd the Mage on the stack, the opponent would have resolved the Mage - and been able to name whatever he wanted (he would not be forced into choosing REB).

Thus, you can 'bluff' with a Mage - he could have said "Smokestack" or something as he was playing it and then passed priority - making Apollyon think it was OK to let resolve - and then named REB anyway. I've never thought of Mage-bluffing like this but it's something to keep in mind (works with Therapy too).

Just a little extra-game strategy.

Just a little insight on this.  Recently, the DCI Judge list has a very long, and very important subject on this.  Technically, in judges eyes, this is illegal, and is very unsportsmanlike.  You would usually recieve a game loss, quiet possibly a match loss because of the "misrepresentation" it gives your opponent.

While we have no set rules on "bluffing" so to speak, we're very clear on people saying one thing and then doing something completly different (naming smokestack, then reb.  or naming white with persecute, then later blue.)  Its looked down apon by both players and judges.  So honestly, i'd be more careful.

Aside: We had the "tutor to the graveyard" problem once at a PTQ.  The judge ruled that he could still search, as most people put the tutor in the graveyard before they look for the card.  I personally, would have not let him search for it, as putting it in the graveyard is the last part of resolution.

[DEA]

well, honestly, when i play, i put the damn card in the graveyard before looking for anything, because i hold it in my hand while waiting for my opponent to respond
you guys designate a place for spells on the stack?

[Kowal]

Right out in front of you, the very center of the gaming area.

It was very important to do this right during the GAT era, because the stack often saw 5+ spells at a time, and instant speed card drawing can leave it VERY messy if you don't establish a proper order.

[Toad]

Players often misplay their spells in tourneys, by putting the card in the graveyard before the resolution, for example. Here is what EVERY player should do :

* Take the card from your hand and put in at the center of the playfield.
* Announce the targets.
* Play the mana costs and the additonal costs.
* Pass priority to opponent. If opponent lets the spell resolve then ...
* Resolve the spell.
* Take the card from the playfield and put it into your graveyard.

This will prevent you from taking mana burn from illegal plays (If you put mana in pool and then announce an illegal spell, you are NOT allowed to untap your land and empty your pool. If you announce the spell, start tapping lands and then notice the spell is illegal, you will be allowed to untap) for example. This will also enable an easy tracking of the stack during counter wars or multiple responses. I've played some games with 10 spells on the stack at the same time, and keeping the cards in play in the right order is key here.

[Razvan]

* Take the card from your hand and put in at the center of the playfield.
* Announce the targets.
* Play the mana costs and the additonal costs.
* Pass priority to opponent. If opponent lets the spell resolve then ...
* Resolve the spell.
* Take the card from the playfield and put it into your graveyard.

The only argument is to speed the game up. I remember Sheldon (SCG) stating that you don't need to announce every step in the madness resolution ("i am using madness to attempt to cast Arrogant Wurm", for example), if the intent is clear and you make sure there's only one possible outcome. Although with Stifle in the picture...

Bah...

This will prevent you from taking mana burn from illegal plays (If you put mana in pool and then announce an illegal spell, you are NOT allowed to untap your land and empty your pool. If you announce the spell, start tapping lands and then notice the spell is illegal, you will be allowed to untap

Are you serious? If so, that's a very good point. A lot of needless damage can be avoided like that. Although I don't think it should be an issue for most players (you should always make sure you can cast it to begin with, it's just smarter, game-state-wise, not to show your opponent what you have), it's good to know.

[LoA]

Are you serious? If so, that's a very good point. A lot of needless damage can be avoided like that. Although I don't think it should be an issue for most players (you should always make sure you can cast it to begin with, it's just smarter, game-state-wise, not to show your opponent what you have), it's good to know.

This is actually pretty vital in today's metagame.  I've seen a lot of people take substantial amount of burn from tapping out to cycle Decree of Justice EOT and getting hit with a Stifle.  The other common mana burn issue I see is people casting Mana Drain on their main phase (not realizing it's their first main phase) and then burning at the end of their turn.  If you're going to cast a sorcery, announce your attack first.  Conversely, getting into a counterwar on your opponent's first main phase and losing by design might be an option in late game control mirrors as long as you can be reasonably sure of depleting their hand.  Once I managed to get tricky and ended up with a nice-sized Yawgmoth's Will on my second main phase, but things like that are exceptions to the rule.

If you're looking to protect yourself from this, or--more likely--looking to prevent your opponent from cashing in on a juicy Mana Drain, remember that Stifle works on more than just permanents.  I didn't get the chance this weekend, but vs. Slavery that might end up being a strong play in some situations.  Stifle on the Mindslaver itself is nice, but it ends up in the 'yard and it's still a threat.

[Toad]

This will prevent you from taking mana burn from illegal plays (If you put mana in pool and then announce an illegal spell, you are NOT allowed to untap your land and empty your pool. If you announce the spell, start tapping lands and then notice the spell is illegal, you will be allowed to untap

Are you serious? If so, that's a very good point. A lot of needless damage can be avoided like that. Although I don't think it should be an issue for most players (you should always make sure you can cast it to begin with, it's just smarter, game-state-wise, not to show your opponent what you have), it's good to know.

Yes I am.

Just imagine you want to cast a spell that costs, say, 5 manas. In play you have 4 lands.

* Situation 1.
Tap 4 lands for 4 manas. Announce the spell, and see you can't pay the casting cost. You rewind the game to a stable situation, ie just before you announced the spell. Which means you still have 4 manas in pool. You'll burn if you don't use that mana.

* Situation 2.
Announce the spell. Start tapping 4 lands, and notice you are missing 1 mana. You rewind the game to a stable situation, which means you untap your lands and empty your mana pool, as tapping lands for mana was part of the illegal processus.

The situation presented in a previous post is pretty common too. I've already killed an opponent like that. Game went :

Opp: (taps 13 manas) "Eot, cycle a Decree".
Me: "Stifle the Soldier triggered ability".
Opp: "OK, I'll take my turn then" (untaps)?
Me: "You take 10 burns. You were at 9, too bad".

Also see previous advice on how to deal with Mana Drain issues. Always announce a null Attack Phase when you have to play a sorcery.

[Apollyon]

Wow. 777 Views on my first Tournament Report. I'm impressed. Props to everyone who viewed it.

That Game Loss is bullshit. Players are supposed to know the rules. The card goes to the graveyard at the end of the resolution of the spell. The search is optionnal. Under high RELs, I'd ALWAYS call the judge if my opponent does the same. ALWAYS. This is not Unsporting Conduct or whatever else. This is just playing under the rules of the game. Here

Cards goes into the graveyard at the end of the resolution. If the card is in the graveyard, then the resolution is over. Period.

Thanks for sticking up for me Toad. As far as I knew, ALL searching was optional, as pretty much all situations where people choose to not find stuff happen with Mystical, Fetches, or whatnot.

And props for designing the original deck. What do you think of my list, besides the Ancient Tombs that were mentioned that should be in there?

Of course, if the tourney was held under low RELs, then thing are different, but in every case this is not worth a Game Loss. It's Unsporting Conduct - Minor, which is worth a Warning

And that's what I said. My issue wasn't the game loss, as I will admit that I probably would have lost that game. However, it should have been a Warning, which I'll admit would be fair.

However, the situation with Vampiric Tutor should never exist because the player attempted to rules lawyer without knowing the rules.

It's not that I didn't know the rules, I didn't know that Demonic, Diabolic, and Vamp were the exceptions to the rules.

[Razvan]

It's not that I didn't know the rules, I didn't know that Demonic, Diabolic, and Vamp were the exceptions to the rules.

Not to stir the pot, but if you didn't know THOSE exceptions to the rules, then maybe you don't know the main rule well enough ?

Incidentally, I think you we right to call the judge (as with everything you are not sure about), and I am not sure I agree with Andystok about the DQ, although it all depends on what actually did happen and how it was conducted.

Okay, here's another sportsmanship question (maybe not a question, a scenario).

On some turn, I cast an Avalanche Riders. Destroy land, attack, all is well. Opponent does nothing of consequence. On my next upkeep, the only thing going on is the echo. I was tapping with my finger on my library while looking at the Riders (deciding whether to pay echo or not). I wasn't moving the top library card, just tapping on it rhytmically for whatever reason.

My opponent then states that I drew a card, thus missed the oportunity to pay the echo, so the Riders die.

I didn't feel like arguing, so I just took it as a sign to let them die... but if I was a judge, I would give my opponent a warning for unsportsmanlike behaviour (or worse, depending). Meh...

[DEA]

If you're looking to protect yourself from this, or--more likely--looking to prevent your opponent from cashing in on a juicy Mana Drain, remember that Stifle works on more than just permanents

hey, i never thought of that
nice and fun

relevant ruling
The mana gain is done as a beginning of main phase triggered ability and not as a mana ability or such. [D'Angelo 2000/03/03]

[Razvan]

Yeah, that Mana Drain ruling was a surprise. I just tried it when I drained something and couldn't use it and I was at 1 life. It's good.

So many little things:).

[Dante]

Okay, here's another sportsmanship question (maybe not a question, a scenario).

On some turn, I cast an Avalanche Riders. Destroy land, attack, all is well. Opponent does nothing of consequence. On my next upkeep, the only thing going on is the echo. I was tapping with my finger on my library while looking at the Riders (deciding whether to pay echo or not). I wasn't moving the top library card, just tapping on it rhytmically for whatever reason.

My opponent then states that I drew a card, thus missed the oportunity to pay the echo, so the Riders die.

Well, if you didn't move the top card off the libary, then clearly it wasn't drawn and I think any judge would be hard pressed to call that "drawing a card"

Bill

[Razvan]

Okay, maybe a bit more specific: "I was in my draw step, thus missed the oportunity for upkeep."

Instead of drawing a card. My mistake. Still?

[Smash]

This will prevent you from taking mana burn from illegal plays (If you put mana in pool and then announce an illegal spell, you are NOT allowed to untap your land and empty your pool. If you announce the spell, start tapping lands and then notice the spell is illegal, you will be allowed to untap) for example.

Actually, the last year or year and a half, this isn't the case anymore. Most judges on the judges list agree to use the "Modo untap rule". If you have illegal targets, you can untap the lands you used to make mana for it. Stuff like chromatic spheres you sacked you can't undo, but you can untap any lands. (just like how modo lets you contol-z stuff )

No neither side is a hard and fast rule. However from what I hear, most of the time judges will allow you to take back a spell AND the mana with an illegal target, no matter what you did first (I would say 90% of judges will rule this way).

[jCoKn]

Another question for the community (though it may be a bit off-topic):

If I tap a land for mana (ex. Taiga) for green, then realize oops wait I still need a red, so I untap my Taiga and tap a Mox Emerald; is this a major faux-pas?

[Dante]

Okay, maybe a bit more specific: "I was in my draw step, thus missed the oportunity for upkeep."

Instead of drawing a card. My mistake. Still?

Well, the echo triggered ability would go on the stack at the beginning of your upkeep, so if you never made any acknowledgement letting the stack resolve, passing priority, or moving into the draw step (like actually drawing a card, not fingering the top card), then the stack (with the echo triggered ability) hasn't resolved, thus you would still get to pay it.

Bill

[Smash]

Another question for the community (though it may be a bit off-topic):

If I tap a land for mana (ex. Taiga) for green, then realize oops wait I still need a red, so I untap my Taiga and tap a Mox Emerald; is this a major faux-pas?

Are you tapping it to play a spell you announced, or do you just tap it and shout out GREEN?

If it is just tap and shout out, then you have like a .5 second window to go "opps I mean tap this for green" (you can make some claim that your hand tapped the wrong card ). Once a few seconds have gone by, you might be stuck with the green, depending on the REL and the exact judge.

Most players would let you take it back however, it's always worth asking

[redfive2]

I just wanted to say that the change from playin 8 rounds of swiss that changed to seven later in the day was bullshit I went 5-2 after 7 rounds and ended up 21st i think i could have made top 8 with the eighth round that "got lost" but other than that i got alot of good trade's met alot of cool player's.

also i want to hear what other people thought about this and what awesome trade's they got myself i got 3 foil welder's for 60$ and 3 foil tangle wire's for 36$[/list]

[Kowal]

You spent SIXTY DOLLARS on foil welders?  Hahahaahahehahahehahehahha.  Wicked awesome dude.  That's like a ~$30 value.

[Smash]

You spent SIXTY DOLLARS on foil welders?  Hahahaahahehahahehahehahha.  Wicked awesome dude.  That's like a ~$30 value.

I was going to laugh that someone paid $20 each for foil welders, till I looked on ebay and saw they are worth $30. Jesus!

[Kowal]

Ebay says they're worth thirty.  If you shop around they should never set you back more than ten.

[Apollyon]

On second thought, Andystok will get slops for judging. This isn't because of the Vamp ruling, I'm not trying to be mean, as I did earlier post it under as a note, not slops. I would like to point out that neither of the two judges said that Vamp needs to get a card, and that my opponent opposed it because I was being a rules-lawyer, not because Vamp needed to fetch a card. The proper call for a judge, IMO, would be to inform me of that rule, then give me a warning for unsporting conduct.

I'm not sure how you announce your draw step, except by drawing a card. And what is drawing a card? I want a ruling on that. Is drawing a card taking the top card of your library and looking at it?

Not to stir the pot, but if you didn't know THOSE exceptions to the rules, then maybe you don't know the main rule well enough?

Most of my rules knowledge is practical stuff that I've seen/dealt with. Most of my tutoring has been with fetches, Tinker, and Mystical Tutor.

[Dante]

I'm not sure how you announce your draw step, except by drawing a card. And what is drawing a card?

Exactly, usually I just start my turn by announcing "Untap" while I untap, "upkeep" and then (assuming no upkeep effects of my own) "draw step".  This makes it very clear to my opponent so that they can stop me if they want to do something during my upkeep and so that both players know which phase it is.

bill

[Krizzyn]

Bill's got the right of it.  If you're really that worried about, that's the way to make sure it doesnt happen.  But....that's a wicked pain in the ass, and most people would rather go through 99% of their game w/o all the BS crap.  This is why people are cool, and when something happens out of the norm, we all know to back up, do what needed doing, etc.  

I'm pretty sure this is more the feeling that most people are conveying when they heard about the whole Vamp Tutor thing.  Everyone would much rather that we all play nice, and when something comes up, assuming the rules dont require something be done a certain way, we all are gentlemen (and ladies occasionally, hey I've seen a couple at tourneys) and handle things in a nice, reasonable, fair manner.

[Smash]

Drawing a card is moving the top card of your library more than a card length away from your library.

Don't abuse this and move it half a card length away at random times, because you will get in trouble as you would if you "thumb" your top card, it looks shady.

[theorigamist]

As a person playing a game that's part of a hobby, I would probably get pissed for that Vampiric Tutor rules lawyering thing (ignoring the fact that you were wrong; let's use any tutor where you would have been correct here so I can make my point).  It's kind of a jerk thing to do.

But as a player of a game that follows a set of concrete rules, I would be even more pissed if it was left up to anybody besides the DCI to decide what rules we do and do not have to follow.  If the rule is there, it needs to be followed.  At a certain point, people could say, "just let it go," but then who's the judge of when and when not to just let it go?  The judge of the event, hypothetically, should never let it go if it's agains the rules.  So people who let stuff go are essentially saying that some rules do not need to be followed, but there's no authority as to which are said type of rules.

I'm not saying I don't let stuff go myself, but if I were called on that I would expect the ruling to go against me (assuming, again, that the guy on the other side of the table was, in fact, correct).

[Apollyon]

Thanks for the clarification on that, Smash. As a bad habit, when they say "go", I will sometimes move the top card of my library down onto the table face down, but nowhere near my hand and without looking at it. Like I said, I played a lot of the T2 Grind for a while, and I'm getting used to the T1 scene.

[Razvan]

The only reason I let it go through that easily was that I was debating letting the Riders die to begin with. That just made it easier. Sort of like a karmic sign.

And yes, if this ever happened again, a punch is severely considered. Well, maybe not, but I definately would argue this for a long time. It was BS anyhow.

Until you actually look at the card, it's not considered drawn. Although you should be careful, as some people are skilled enough to cheat and look at it even though you didn't notice it yet. That's why I am a bit torn up for this. (like Apollyon suggested, move it on the table).