New T1 Agro deck (Ravager/Atog), 70% turn three kills

[newager]

It has been requested of me that I bring this deck from the Wizards.com boards here for further inspection of it.  I'm averaging turn three kills or better about 70% of the time.

[list=]
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 " Jet
1 " Pearl
1 " Ruby
1 " Saphire
3 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Acadimy (more stable than Workshop and just as fast)
4 Taiga
1 Tree of Tails
2 Great Furnace
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Myr Moonvessel
4 Arcbound Worker
3 Arcbound Slith
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Atog
3 Frogmite
2 Myr Enforcer
4 Skullclamp
4 Berserk
4 Fling

Sideboard:

4 Goblin Welder
3 Shrapnal Blast
4 Tromnod's Crypt
4 Naturalize
[/list]

It's fast beyond all extent of reason, but I know it can still be improved.

Arcbound Slith is in there because it's great against control and solid against aggro, but comes out against combo decks.  I keep being asked about that one so I thought I would just out and say it this time.

Thoughts are always welcome, and suggestions are kinda why I'm here...

[The Grim Reaper]

I'm pretty sure this deck needs blue for:

Ancestral
Time Walk
Thirsts
Draw 7's

Currently this deck has no draw and this makes me apprehensive. The thought of doing fat dmg with Berserk and Fling is nice, but you need blue to add consistancy to the deck.

Remove some creatures and try adding blue (and removing green or red possibly).

[newager]

Originally I was running blue, but I found that it just made the deck choppy.  More often than not I would be waisting mana drawing cards instead of just drawing the cards I needed to begine with.  Splashing for draw actually proved to drop the consistancy of the deck rather than improve it.

Oh, by the way, the name of the deck is Virus (which I believe Veru came up with if memory serves me right).  It eats everything in sight and than just kills.

[Meddling Mike]

Glimmervoid>foothills I'm thinking

[Smash]

Using workshops and zerks is one thing I haven't tried in all my failed t1 affinity decks. 4 fling 4 zerk seems like it could lead to some dead cards (though 2 zerks on a fling is pretty sick on any of your pumpers)

[CSeraph]

Sounds like you've been goldfishing.

The power of the Ravager decks that have been cropping up in random T8s in T1 and T2 is that their damage is difficult to stop - disciple lifeloss is automatic and comes in neatly divisible packages, and arcbound counters are damn hard to permanently remove from the board.

Your list sacrifices this redundancy for a single burst of raw killing power, - thereby making timely counterspells fatal. You *must* sacrifice most-->all of your board to maximize the effect of zerk/fling, leaving you crippled if it doesn't work out as planned. That's bad.

Atog compounds this problem, since his 'counters' do not move around and any random creature removal (eg swords) will cost you the game.

[newager]

It's a wash, but I like the filtering of Foothills so I don't get useless lands later.

If you really want to read how this deck came about, here's the address to the wizards.com boards topic I created for it.  You'll see it started out much differant than it ended up:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189567

[Smash]

The wizards boards are newbarific, linking to it doesn't look good

[CSeraph]

Actually, I think you'd be better going back to the original build and working off that. Or check out this Dulmen build (#2):
http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=110

The Wizards boards and quality type 1 deck building do not mix - you'll get more of this calibre of answer:

Counterfan16 said:I love how u can add power to any deck, and boom, it becomes insta fast

[newager]

Your list sacrifices this redundancy for a single burst of raw killing power, - thereby making timely counterspells fatal. You *must* sacrifice most-->all of your board to maximize the effect of zerk/fling, leaving you crippled if it doesn't work out as planned. That's bad.

The deck only plays out that way when playing against combo decks.  Against everything else it goes for less explosiveness and more beatdown over the long game.  Against control decks I take out Atog for Welder so their counters are neutered until they get rid of it.  I can usually kill control decks turn four of five just playing like Stompy.  It's actually a pritty flexable deck.

[Caelestis]

In other words, your game plan against Control-esque decks in game 2 and 3 is to become a slower TnT/Stacker with less amount of card draw/search? :shock:

[newager]

In other words, your game plan against Control-esque decks in game 2 and 3 is to become a slower TnT/Stacker with less amount of card draw/search? :shock:

Depending on the control deck, yes at times.

It's quite possable to kill third turn without having to use Berserk or Fling, but that only happens about 10% of the time.  Typically the deck will kill turn four with or without 'zerk/Fling, they are only in there to give the deck a fighting chance against combo decks.  Without them it suffers the same fate every other purely aggro deck does to the hands of combo.

I say turn four or five because there are times that it's difficult to do those last two or three damage without Fling or Berserk turn four.  That's one of the biggest reasons for sideboarded Shrapnal Blast too.

[Smash]

You dont need zerk/fling stuff to beat combo. YOU RUN WORKSHOPS!

CoTV, Trinisphere, pyrostatic pillar

You have ALL these tools available, and mana to use them quickly. Make use of them!

(not to mention, there is VERY little combo right not. Leave the hate in the board, and MD for aggro and control).

[newager]

Very true.  Admitadly this deck was built just after the TPS and 0-2 land Belcher decks reached their prime and started to fall slightly.  It aimed at hitting the weaknesses in their decks slight inconsistancys.

It's not as strong now as it once was, but again, that's why I'm here.

[mrieff]

In your build, I would seriously consider Myr Retriever. Maybe Scrapnel Blast as well.

Overall, I am not too happy with your version. It seems a one-shot deal, without much staying power.

I will take Ravager to a tourney tomorrow and after that I will post my take on the deck. Feel free to join the discussion with your experiences on the deck.

Menno

[Ric_Flair]

This deck ABSOLUTELY MUST have Disciple of the Vault.  They make Ravager so much better.  And the Fling/Berserk stuff may make the deck more explosive, but I can get turn three 3 kills with my Standard version of the Ravager deck.  The deck is fast as it is, but with a few tweaks it can have some staying power, solid draw, and still be fast.  Furthermore Arcbound Slith is just not fast enough.  

4 Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Myr Moonvessel
4 Skullclamp
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Frogmite
4 Tooth of Chiss Gora
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Thoughtcast
3 Ornithopter
1 Yawg Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

8 SoloMoxen Crypt
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod

This deck can kill very fast thanks to the Disciples and it can still play with the power cards like Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and Yawg Will.  The two tutors can get any of the power cards in the deck.  This deck has a ton of draw too: 4 Skullclamp, 4 Thoughtcast, 1 Ancestral.  

I don't see what Green adds over Disciples (which have a similar effect as Berserk), and D. Tutor and Yawg Will.  Red is good, but I think I would rather the draw.  With Thoughtcast and Ancestral there is ton of good draw.  Finally I really like artifact land in this deck because of the ability to sac and double up damage when Ravager and Disciple are in play.  Disciple is required--he is AMAZING.

[Razvan]

Take any broken Type 2 deck, add power, and you have Type 1. Great.

Actually, this Ravager affinity thing is rather nasty. It can easily get turn 4 wins in Type 2... Turn 1 4/4's is reminiscent of what... TnT?

Yeah, that's good.

[BreathWeapon]

Everytime I have used Mishra's Workshop in Affinity builds I find Ancient Tomb is better.

[SpencerForHire]

I don't think Affinity needs workshop.  The workshop might actually produce too much mana, in affinity you can usually just drop enough artifacts to make things free or at least close to free.  Workshops are just good for dropping overly large costed cards faster.

[jpmeyer]

4 Seat of the Synod
        4 Vault of Whispers
        4 Glimmervoid
        3 Great Furnace
        1 Tolarian Academy

        4 Skullclamp
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald

        4 Ornithopter
        4 Arcbound Worker
        4 Disciple of the Vault
        4 Arcbound Ravager
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer

        1 Windfall
        1 Timetwister
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will

That deck scoops to a mad lot of stuff, but boy oh boy is it fast and explosive.

[newager]

jpmeyer hit exactly what my problem with the Diciple build is:  they scoop too often for me.

Understand that I'm not trying to defend my deck, but I can explaine soem of the thought behind it.

I playtested Diciple and Berserk both.  I found that Berserk usually did on average four more damage than Diciple.  Even though it's not unpreventable, I liked how that worked out.  It's especially powerful with Atog and has netted me a turn three kill vertually every time I have pulled it against combo decks in game one.

Myr Enforcer is seriously expensive.  It may appear to be a turn one 4/4, but in most cases it just flat out wasn't.  It generally didn't even get played without Workshop until turn three, and that was too little, too late.  Serious Mana Drain target.

Myr Moonvessel was insaine.  With Skullclamp it was vertually a mini-Ancestral, plus it's a decent creature on it's own.  With Atog or Ravager it usually let me play one more artifact to sac for the last points of damage.

Tolarian Acadimy is absolutely invaluable to the deck.  The ability to darw 30 extra cards off a single Skullclamp in one turn lies within Tolarian alone (and I'm not kidding, I actually did that once and close to it several times, around 22-26).

Tooth of Chiss-Goria only got cut because of Fling and Berserk.  If they are aoust, Tooth is more than strong enough to put back in.

I don't like Arcbound Crusher in the deck.  Without Workshop it's never played fast enough, and if it's not played first turn, it's no longer any good.  Besides, it doesn't have to shear power of Atog or the flexability of Ravager, and usually ends up being an expensive Myr Enforcer.

[BreathWeapon]

Has anybody really tried using soft lock elements like Sphere of Resistance and Chalice of the Void MD? We need some sort of disruption.

[newager]

Has anybody really tried using soft lock elements like Sphere of Resistance and Chalice of the Void MD? We need some sort of disruption.

Yes.  I have.  They are great cards and I wouldn't mind putting them MD at all, it's just that my personal play style tends to make me say "Who needs to disrupt when you can just kill?" and I follow that philosophy quite often unless the deck arctype demands differantly.

[BreathWeapon]

Unfortunately, this deck rolls to anything that remotely resembles Combo. I guess we can always play the metagame to the best of our ability to cash in on this decks strengths vs Aggro and Control, but why should we leave the back door open vs Combo when we don't have to?

[Ric_Flair]

Newager, I am not sure if I can agree with some of your comments.  They seem to be made without knowledge of how the deck works.  I wholeheartedly recommend watching Ben Stark's plays in the Top 8 at GP: Kobe.  It helped me understand the ins and outs of the deck.  Even though that was Block and this is Vintage, the deck is mostly the same.  In fact I would bet that a good player with the Block version could beat an okay player with the original version posted at the start of this thread.

I playtested Diciple and Berserk both. I found that Berserk usually did on average four more damage than Diciple. Even though it's not unpreventable, I liked how that worked out. It's especially powerful with Atog and has netted me a turn three kill vertually every time I have pulled it against combo decks in game one.

I am not sure if this is true.  Either way, I think that Disciple is more consistent and that is important when a deck is this fast.  Adding cards like Berserk which add explosiveness but remove consistency makes this deck EVEN MORE draw dependant.  Disciples are so good and so synergistic with the deck I cannot imagine not having them.  Used properly I think they are just as fast and more consistent.

Myr Enforcer is seriously expensive. It may appear to be a turn one 4/4, but in most cases it just flat out wasn't. It generally didn't even get played without Workshop until turn three, and that was too little, too late. Serious Mana Drain target.

There are thirteen non-artifact cards in the whole deck.  13.  The chance that you pay 7 is almost nil.  The chance that you pay less than 7 is great, and the chance that he is free is pretty good.  Furthermore, as a Drain target I am only worried about him leading to a Slaver.  Everything else this deck can outrace (in theory).  Plus Slaver is game anyway, so he adds very little additional liability.  See Broodstarrunner for a deck that regularly runs Enforcers without a problem, and they have less artifacts than this deck.

As for the land.  I think that this deck needs nothing other than artifact land.  Workshops are overkill, Academy is unnecessary and a win more card, and Ancient Tomb is almost strictly worse than artifact lands.  With affinity cards Tomb is "Tap, Pay 2 Life: Add 2 your mana pool" while the artifact lands are "Tap: Add 2 of a specific color to your mana pool."  Hmmm....which is better?
 
@JP:  Good deck...how do the Glimmervoids work out?  What about the three colors?

[jpmeyer]

The mana is really smooth, since there are only a couple spells in each color.  I've actually found Academy and Glimmervoid to be really important.

[The Atog Lord]

I’ve been having a good amount of success with my Block Rav/Aff deck against Type One decks. The deck is explosive and seems to be able to win out of nowhere.

On Berserks and Flings. I felt like I had to comment, because I’ve probably flung more Atogs (the red type) than anyone else on the planet. As cool as those cards are, I’m not convinced that using Berserk and Fling are the optimal way to take advantage of the deck’s strengths.

Part of what I like about Rav/Aff is that the deck is resilient to spot removal and countermagic. Is a particular spell countered? The deck has redundancy and a strong draw engine. Is an attacking Ravager destroyed? You can move its counter onto the innocent-seeming Worker.

Introducing the Berserk equates to putting all of your eggs in one basket. Sure, Berserking an Atog can win you the game. But having Berserk in your deck can tempt you to overextended and commit all of your resources to a single Atog. A Sword can then become game-ending. One could say that Hulk decks use Berserk with success; yet, unlike Rav/Aff, Hulk decks have countermagic to protect their Berserked Atogs.

On the matter of Fling. I think that the obvious question is, is Fling better than Shrapnel Blast? Either Fling is used on a huge creature who has just devoured many of your artifacts, or it is used on a smaller creature. If the later is true, then the Blast will deal more damage, and usually at a less hefty price.

Now, what if the former is true, and Fling is used on a large creature? First, of course, this situation requires that one has a large creature in the first place, and that this large creature alone is unable to win the game. Now, the problem comes when Fling is countered. Because sacrificing the creature is a part of the cost of the spell, should Fling be countered, the creature – the large one to which you have sacrificed several artifacts – is lost. Yes, Modular creatures can still move their tokens, but Atogs cannot. This goes back to what I said earlier about putting all of your eggs in a single basket.

So, in short, Berserk and Fling are both rather situational and risky cards to play. The issues I brought up won’t be seen as much when goldfishing the deck, but will likely affect actual games.

[DEA]

that reminds me of a point someone brought up
are these 70% turn 3 kills played against a real human being?

[wizmentor]

4 Seat of the Synod
        4 Vault of Whispers
        4 Glimmervoid
        3 Great Furnace
        1 Tolarian Academy

        4 Skullclamp
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald

        4 Ornithopter
        4 Arcbound Worker
        4 Disciple of the Vault
        4 Arcbound Ravager
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer

        1 Windfall
        1 Timetwister
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will

That deck scoops to a mad lot of stuff, but boy oh boy is it fast and explosive.

I was thinking of adding tinker for memory jar. You run tinker without the jar?  Do you tinker for ravager?  skullclamps?  Seems like jar would be better.


People have shown concerns about Workshop, and I guess I'd probably go with a list similar to J.P.'s (but with jar) since I only own 1 Workshop.  However, it seems like a parallel build using workshops, jar, and genesis chamber could be pretty insane.

peace, superdad

[Diakonov]

I have a lot to say about this deck, but I don't have the time to say it all right now.  One thing is for sure: I play this deck in T2, and I can't IMAGINE not running Shrapnel Blast.  Also, Myr Moonvessel has neat little tricks and all with Skullclamp, but he really isn't that good in the end.