[Discussion]Fact or Fiction in general

[SpencerForHire]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16118
This is the discussion on the T1 board, and I usually don't bother but I really wanted to talk about this, and as I don't have the permissions to there, I have to bring it here.

Fact or fiction is IMO a very powerful asset.  If I still ran blue, It would be in my deck in a second.  I would always get extremly hard to divide combinations with FoF that would almost always win me the game.
The most mentionable split is any cards and [card]Yawgmoths Will[/card].
I have one EVERY game I have ever played that I have FoF'd into a Will.  I understand that usually Yawg's Will wins the game by itself, but you've got to think about this, worse case:
Split:
Pile 1: [card]Yawgmoths Will[/card]
Pile 2: Any 4 other cards.
Take the will.
Cast will; thats +5 card advantage.
+1 for the FoF and +4 for the other four cards that you "Unfortunately" had to put into your graveyard.
This scenario happens alot more then you'd think, and at times, you'll already have the Will in your hand, that makes FoF a no lose situation.

Second Scenario: No Will.
You flip up 5 cards, your opponent splits.  Think of it as a sort of super-mini-tutor.  You get to choose several ok cards, a few good cards, or one broken card from the top of your library and put them into your hand.  You never DON'T get at least one thing you need unless you mill into all land and then you still are doin good because thats 5 more land you will not have to hit later.  This is still great, If I hit 5 land I feel decent enough because..
1 - I won't hit those land later, and at least I can take what colors I need (most of the time)
2 - I know my opponent doesn't have a counter, (or don't know whats worth countering so the match should be a win anyways)

Not everyone will counter, but most people will, this card is too good not to, if they don't counter the draw, they will be losing the war because they will then for the most part have multiple cards to worry about as opposed to the initial cast.

[Razvan]

FoF is a better Thirst for Knowledge and a worse Ancestral Recall. Essentially, that's pretty much it. It's closer to Recall than the Thirst, and costs as much as the 2 combined.

Of course, putting cards in the graveyard could be really good... *wink*... *wink*... Heck, I have been using 1 in Stax for a while now, before Thirst...

Yawgmoth's Will of course makes everything degenerate. Ugh.

I would still use FoF in Tog and Stax/Slavery builds. No reason to take it out. It's okay in Keeper. I think it's undercosted by 1 (hence why it's so good). Otherwise... it'd still be good, just not quite so broken.

[riggy]

I'm going to kind of echo what Dr. Sylvan said, since I'm doing something similar. In my Hulk and Tog builds, I replaced the maindeck Fact with a Skeletal Scrying, and put a Skeletal Scrying and the Fact or Fiction in the sideboard as Wish targets.

While Fact or Fiction is good, it gives your opponent an excellent idea of what else is in your hand, based on which pile you choose, as well as knowing the x cards that were in the pile you took. Also, it is a bit outside of most mana curves, including those curves altered by Mana Drain and moxen. Plus, Skeletal Scrying pumps tog a bit better than the Fact does, and it conceals your hand. It sucks a bit more if it gets countered,  but I've never regretted seeing Scrying.

EDIT: As far as comparing it to Thirst, giving your opponent the opporunity to make your choices more difficult isn't so hot. I run Thirsts for my discard (costs less, as you mentioned, and if I get a welder, or other utility card I want to hold on to, my opponent can't influence my ability to put it in my hand).

My conclusion: it's decent, but in a tight spot, I'd rather have the Skel Scrying over the Fact.

[newager]

I think it depends more on the deck than anything else.  Scyring and FoF are both great cards, but sometimes one is just better than the other.

Look at Keeper.  It runs both maindeck most times, and usually only one Scyring even though it's not restricted.  In Keeper FoF is just a better card more often becaues it's the more mana effeciant "bad tutor" and a cheaper draw engine.

However, I have seen some experimental Stax decks splashing black over blue to get Scyring and tutors over big blue and friends.  According to those players it just made more sense for the builds of the deck they wanted to aim for.  I'm not convinced the logic is there for that due to how perminant reliant the decks are, but they were pulling out locks faster with less reliance on extra mana than the Ru versions.

[jpmeyer]

This is why, back in the day, 4 FoF Stacker was the best deck.  The format really couldn't handle 4 FoF back then.  There was the synergy with Goblin Welder in Stacker and the fact that it was draw and tutoring in Keeper and mono-blue.

Having access to that many FoFs actually heavily changes the way that decks work, since now the deck can dig for any single card that it needs, but if that card isn't there, it can just load up with enough stuff to fight off anything until it draws another FoF which lets it draw/look again for the card in question.

I'd run 3 maindeck FoF in Tog (and 1 in the SB) in a second.

While Fact or Fiction is good, it gives your opponent an excellent idea of what else is in your hand, based on which pile you choose, as well as knowing the x cards that were in the pile you took.

It's also much more likely that your opponent didn't split the piles properly and that you're not choosing between say, two good cards or three OK cards, but two OK cards and a good card vs. one OK card and one good card.  Or look at it like this: you cast FoF and flip over three nickels and two dimes.  You're getting at least twenty cents no matter how he splits it.

[rvs]

FoF is also rather strong because a lot of opposing t1 players suck. They'll make the wrong choice in the splitting

[SpencerForHire]

Even if not against a bad player the overall power of FoF cannot be denied.  It gives you what your looking for a good portion of time or damage with tog.  It is like a draw 5 but it'll cost you a few cards depending on how good the draw is.
I personally am not going to care if my opponent knows what I have if I am just going to win.
FoF was at one point considered an 'I win' card.  I know it's not like that anymore but it still is extremely powerful.

The worst side affect of FoF is the fact that your opponent sees the cards.  In no way are the cards hitting the yard bad.  A portion of the time it's un-needed junk another portion of the time your just going to recur it, or remove it for damage/wishing.  The fact that FoF is an instant doens't help any.  It is a definate 'Oh Shit' trigger if the game is about to end and you need a quick stall/fix/counter.  Many a time I have watched a FoF grab the necessary counter to save someones life.

Perhaps the problem is that you can no longer run 4 of this card, or perhaps its that other cards have been printed that are more preferable.. However this is quite situational, saying "I would rather have a TFK over FoF" could be extremely based on the situation, do you need a specific card, do you need many cards?  It all depends.
Also sometimes you can't pay the life for Skeletal Scrying, in these cases wouldn't you rather have a Scrying?..
The selection of FoF over TFK or Scrying is very much an opinion based selection based on the metagame and personal preference.  There is no doubt in my mind that FoF is an extremely powerful card though.

[Razvan]

Also sometimes you can't pay the life for Skeletal Scrying, in these cases wouldn't you rather have a Scrying?..

Hm?

And yes, I think they are all good. I play with 4 TFK and 1 FoF in my Stax deck. Long live choice.

[xrizzo]

FoF is also rather strong because a lot of opposing t1 players suck. They'll make the wrong choice in the splitting

Even good players who don't know what is in your hand can split wrong as well.  

Unlike other 'choice' cards, like Browbeat, where you can always clearly assess the best situation, FoF creates very uncertain situations for your opponent - and you can ofter gain better card advantage over scrying because of their error.

Although, 1 MD Scrying, and 1 SB FoF and Scrying makes sense mana curve wise, it is worth noting that a counterless hand would ALWAYS rather cast FoF because if it is countered, you don't lose anything more than tempo.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm not quite sure what is the question you're posing here gimbles. Are you simply saying that FoF is a broken card? That's really not a debateable point, few non-broken cards end up on the restricted list and I think FoF certainly warranted a spot (unlike say, chrome mox, which I felt was debateable). Do you have a gripe about FoF being moved to sideboards in some cases as wish targets? Or are you arguing that FoF has lost something without three of it's FoF bretheren and it's not as powerful as a one of in decks. Clarification would be appreciated. thanks.

[Jakedasnake]

Fact or Fiction is still a crazy good card...in some decks.

For example, it fits Keeper's gameplan perfectly, in that you'll be able to cast it, if you have it, to seal the win. If, piloting Keeper, you haven't been able to build up to four mana sources with some sort of protection, you've lost anyway.

However, in Tog, it's just not quite as good. 'Tog already has plenty of draw to throw around, and although Fact or Fiction really pumps the d00d up, it just doesn't really fit around the game-plan unless they're able to drain into it.

Just my $.02

[KitzuneNinja]

Fact or Fiction in the sideboard as Wish targets.

I dont really know if thats effective - Thats some heffty mana to produce. By the time you reach that kind of mana, havent you won allready? Or should wish for something else? In what situations did you wish for it, and why?

[KitzuneNinja]

The less errors you do and the more errors your opponents does, the better your game will be and will increase your chanses of winning. Right?

Fact or Fiction is a very difficult card to let you resolve for your opponent if he hasnt acess to information (looked at your hand, knowing your deck, etc) and if you havent given up information his desicions would become crucial for the end of the game - Giving you options where you want to go from there.

Its a true challange to Fact right and I will have to spend a whole bag of hours testing my skills on this one, as I am very bad at making Fact decisions devastatingly often for it to actually make me loose games.

Perhaps someone with more time than me would post "Fact or Fiction tales" from recent tournaments, allowing a clearer view on "What would be the right decision in situation X". Some thoughts that might prove wroth something.

[Machinus]

Think about it like this.

The only reason FoF has ever been debated as a card has been its casting cost. It is blue. It is an instant. It digs into a tenth of your library. It replaces itself a likely adds a card or two to your hand. BUT - it costs FOUR mana. This is a huge problem.

Revealing the cards you have to your opponent seems like a negligible problem to me. First, your opponent will more than likely know what you are playing. Even if they do not, they still know the weaknesses of their own deck and if they are a skilled player, will be prepared to defend them. Revealing to your opponent that you have cunning wished for rack and ruin does not instill a panic of pants wetting, but instead signals to your opponent that the resources they have allocated towards defending their permanents or getting new ones are going to be used soon. Likely, either you will cast the R&R immediately or wait one turn, giving them a maximum of one untap and draw step. Yes, the board can develop significantly in a single turn in Vintage, but will your opponent really do that much differently? They are trying to win; knowing that you are trying to stop them from winning or win first doesn't really change their philosophy at all. They cannot change the cards in their decks/sb. Only decks like keeper or TnT have any chance of changing the cards in their hand or on their board to deal with your imminent threat. And you will still make them use resources to deal with your threat, whether it be a counter, discard spell, sacrifice effect, or whatever. The point is, a good opponent will be waiting for you to disrupt their game. I don't see FoF's reveal text as a liability.

As for the casting cost, FoF is not as efficient as Thirst. In constructing an efficient and powerful deck, there comes a point where sacrificing consistency and reliability for the sake of speed and power drops off - you cannot get away with running lots of cheap mana in order to fuel expensive CA, because cheap mana inherently drains CA to begin with, and while there is a great deal of brokenness on the B&R, its not enough to justify putting the 2 lesser moxen in control decks, for example. FoF is a control card, and has to be judged along with other control elements like Mana Drain. Yes, FoF has hybrid uses due to it's versatile nature, but we are examining its intrinsic value and so we must discount its coincidental synergies with cards like Tog and Welder. FoF must follow behind more efficient cards for it to be considered as a worthy inclusion.

[InsaneScrub]

I can sum this my whole discussion about fact or fiction in two words.....
Bah Roken!  

This really doesn't add anything to the conversation[/color]

[SpencerForHire]

@Meddling Mage= The question is, is FoF good in Type 1 as a one of and also if it is, is it worth running in Tog based decks (via original discussion)

The main question is do the pros beat the cons.

Pros:
Goes thru a tenth of your library.
Nets you a couple good cards to a few really broken cards.
Can get past junk you'd never wanna hit (via mana clumping)
Can pump tog/set you up for combos/give you a few good things that work in the GY.
You choose which pile.

Cons:
Your opponent sees the cards you take.
The casting cost is .
It's restricted.

Am I missing anything vital in this list.?

[theorigamist]

You missed:

Pro:
Instant
Blue
Easy to splash (this matters for three and four colored Tog decks)

Con:
Opponent splits the cards

Actually, the fact that the opponent splits the pile could be a huge con or a huge pro in any given situation.  Without knowing your hand, the opponent is very likely to make what seems like a good split, but is actually the wrong split.

[jpmeyer]

You missed:

Pro:
Opponent splits the cards

[SpencerForHire]

I didnt put "Opponent Splits the Cards" as a pro or a con for that reason, its very relative to the cards given and who your opponent is whether they splitting them is a good or a bad thing..
Color usually doesn't matter when determining how good a card is, and yes I forgot the simple fact its an instant, I'm certainly going to burn in hell for all time now.

[Ranma4703]

Color definitly matters for FoF. It is pitchable early game, it is fueled by Mana Drain, and it doesn't draw you cards; important if there is a Chains of Meph. on the board. Also, it is not mis-d able. You can also gain a huge advantage by FoF'ing in responce to a spell you have to counter, with a counter already in your hand. If your FoF reveals a counterspell, they will probably overvalue it when making their piles. If you pick the pile with the counter spell, then counter with the counter spell you just got, they will think that you are out of c-spells, allowing you to counter a key spell.
FoF gives you many ways more ways to gain an advantage, by giving you the ability to bluff and by having your opponent mess up the piles. It is a key card.

[Daniel_112]

One other thing that's very important is that your opponent doesn't know where your searching for. If your playing with tog, and you didn't play your tog yet, your opponent will make piles in a way that you can chose to get a tog, or 4 other cards. If your having a tog in hand, it creates mass card advantage.

If you resolve a fact or fiction, and your opp makes piles, and you take one, and win with the cards your opponent "gave" to you. He begins to think it's because of a fault he made. (mind games)